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Who are the modern day "Greeks"?

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Spartakus View Drop Down
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who are the modern day "Greeks"?
    Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 16:34
Not necessarily.The evolution of the Hellenic civilization,is imaged on the meaning of those words.Whoever participates the Hellenic educational system,follows the Hellenic principles,speaks Hellenic(modern or ancient) etc is a Hellen.I think that he is trying to show.
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  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 16:46

About the "eratic" subsaharan genes(which was 2.9%). On diekenes site when it gave a list of them, it stated the Albanians tested were Arbresh(from Southern Italy). WHy didnt he do or show a test for the Albanians in Albania? Furtermore, why didnt he state that in this study?



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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 18:27
The word ''Greek'' is not much a term of birth as of mentality,and is applied to a common culture rather than a common descent....Isocrates.


Not necessarily.The evolution of the Hellenic civilization,is imaged on the meaning of those words.Whoever participates the Hellenic educational system,follows the Hellenic principles,speaks Hellenic(modern or ancient) etc is a Hellen.I think that he is trying to show.


Spartakus
Since our last discussion on this exact quote, I honestly believed you would have looked it up.

First of all, this is from Isocrates' Panegyrikos, which was actually an attempt to unite the cities of Hellas against Persia, clearly showing throughout the speech, his pride of Athens' past (since at that time Sparta lead Hellas at that time.
We must also keep in mind, that this is a speech directed only to the Atheneans

If he was attempting to claim something like this, why would he previously say :
"for we did not become dwellers in this land by driving others out of it, nor by finding it uninhabited, nor by coming together here a motley horde composed of many races; but we are of a lineage so noble and so pure that throughout our history we have continued in possession of the very land which gave us birth, since we are sprung from its very soil and are able to address our city by the very names which we apply to our nearest kin."
( Panegyrikos 24)

Why speak of noble and pure lineage if he was to accept anyone as a Helline just a couple of lines down only based on intelect and culture???

Now to the text in question.
What he said:

"And so far has our city distanced the rest of mankind in thought and in speech that her pupils have become the teachers of the rest of the world; and she has brought it about that the name Hellenes suggests no longer a race but an intelligence, and that the title Hellenes is applied to those who share our culture OR to those who share a common blood.
(Panegyrikos 50)

In Hellinic:
" "

Why is the name Hellines a synonym to intelligence??
Because they are the teachers of the entire world, so when someone mentions Hellinas, he is describing knowledge/inntelect and not blood. Now compare that to the idea that anyone was accepted as a part of the Hellinic race.
What do you see??? Two totally different things.
It would also be interesting if anyone could provide a quote that clearly says we accept anyone, since this one does nothing of the kind.

As the renowned German historian Ulrich Wilcken tells us.
"Isocrates by saying this does not include in to the Hellinic race the Hellinized barbarians, because for him the barbarians and especially the Persians, continued to be the natural enemies of Hellas.
What Isocrates means is that he considers the real Hellines to be only those that have the Attik culture."
Ulrich Wilcken "Ancient Greek History"

When reading his speech we find that throughout the whole speech he talks about Hellas being one unified community, both racial and cultural that is tortured by civil wars among the city states, while accross them stand the Persians, their agelong enemies.
The solution he gives is one, that they stop all disputes and that the HELLINES unite and start a campaigne against the BARBARIANS.

As seen in the beginning of the speech:
"I have come before you to give my counsels on the war against the barbarians and on concord among ourselves."
(Panegyrikos 3)

Just a couple more quotes that prove that Isocrates never was the 'internationalist' some would like to believe but the exact opposite.

"For we have reason to reproach the Lacedaemonians for this also, that in the interest of their own city they compel their neighbors to live in serfdom, but for the common advantage of their allies they refuse to bring about a similar condition, although it lies in their power to make up their quarrel with us and reduce all the barbarians to a state of subjection to the whole of Hellas."

Some more:
"Of my own countrymen also I have a similar tale to tell. For towards all other peoples with whom they have been at war, they forget their past enmities the moment they have concluded peace, but toward the Asiatics they feel no gratitude even when they receive favors from them; so eternal is the wrath which they cherish against the barbarians .Our fathers, again, condemned many to death for the crime of Medism, and in their public assemblies even at the present day, before transacting any other business, they invoke curses on any citizen who proposes to send an embassy to negotiate peace with the Persians; and the Eumolpidae and the Ceryces, in the celebration of the mysteries, on account of their hatred of the Persians warn all other barbarians, as if they were murderers, to keep away from the sacred rites."
(Panegyrikos 157)

And

"So ingrained in our nature is our hostility to them that even in the matter of our stories we linger most fondly over those which tell of the Trojan and the Persian wars, because through them we learn of our enemies' misfortunes; and you will find that our warfare against the barbarians has inspired our hymns, while that against the Hellenes has brought forth our dirges; and that the former are sung at our festivals, while we recall the latter on occasions of sorrow."

Read the speech you'll actually be quite suprised.
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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  Quote philiptheuniter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 19:24
Originally posted by Axl Low

Hellenized Albanians,Macedonians,Bulgars,Vlach and Turks? And these "people" have the nerve to question the macedonians and their identity lol:

It is a striking fact that the leading defenders of Greek liberty at this time were largely Non-Greek. Koundouriotis was decended from the Albanian invadors of Greece in the 14th century,and spoke Greek only with difficulty. His principal colleague was John Kolettis, a Vlakh who had been Ali Pasha's court doctor at Ioannina. One of the few leaders who maintained resistance far to the north of the Gulf of Corinth was the Souliote,Marko Botsaris,whos followers were largely Albanian. By a strange chance, it happend that two of the Turkish commanders-in-chief during the war, Khurshid Pasha and Muhammad Rehid Pasha(known to the Greeks as Kiutahi), were by birth Orthodox Christians, who had been converted to Islam for the sake of career in the Sultans service.

Modern Greece A Short History
C.M. Woodhouse
Page 139

Greece included considerably fewer than half of those who regarded themselves as Greeks by virtue of their language,their religion, and (less plausibly) their race. It was easy to stir up agitation in favour of enlarging Greece's frontiers by a progressive extension of "enosis" (union).

Modern Greece A Short History
C.M. Woodhouse
Page 163

In practice the Greeks had only exchanged arbitrary rule by Bavarians for arbitrary rule by others scarcely closer to themselves. The first six prime ministers under the new constitutions were all war-time leaders, several of them only nominally Greek. They included the Phanariote Mavrokordatos,the Vlakh Kolettis, and the Albanian Koundouriotis. With the exception of the last prime minister of Otho's reign, Admiral Kanaris,all of them paid litle regard to the constitution which had cost them so much toil and intrigue.
Mavrokordatos in particular culpably betrayed his trust as Greece's first constitutional prime minister(March 1844), and was compelled to resign within six months. Kolettis, who succeeded him in August 1844,remained in office until his death three years later. Neither took naturally to democratic principles, though both had a superficial acquanintance with Western Europe. Mavrokordatos' background was the Phanariote society of Constantinpole and the Rumanian principalities.

Modern Greece A Short History
C.M. Woodhouse
Page 162


The conditions of the war were now completely changed. The Greeks, who had been squandering the money provided by the loans in every sort of senseless extravagance, affected to despise the Egyptian invaders, but they ~ were soon undeceived. On the 21st of March Ibrahim Mo,ea. had laid siege to Navarino, and after some delay a Greek force under Skourti, a Hydriote sea-captain, was sent to its relief. The Greeks had in all some 7000 men, Suliotes, Albanians, armatoli from Rumelia, and some irregular Bulgarian and Viach cavalry.

http://63.1911encyclopedia.org/G/GR/GREEK_INDEPENDENCE_WAR_O F.htm


Anthony D. Smith points out, specifically in reference to the modern Greek nation, "Greek demographic continuity was brutally interrupted in the late sixth to eighth centuries A.D. by massive influxes of Avar, Slav and later, Albanian immigrants." He adds that modern Greeks "could hardly count as being of ancient Greek descent, even if this could never be ruled out.


A process of "re-hellenization" took place, led by the Greek Orthodox Church, using the vehicle of the Greek language. To use the words of Nicholas Cheetham, (in the south) "religion and Hellenization marched hand in hand." The Slavs and Albanians, in particular, converted to Christianity and learned to speak Greek.

Albanians settled in Athens, Corinth, Mani, Thessaly and even in the Aegean islands. In the early nineteenth century, the population of Athens was 24 percent Albanian, 32 percent Turkish, and only 44 percent Greek. The village of Marathon, scene of the great victory in 490 B.C., was, early in the nineteenth century, almost entirely Albanian."

Nicholas Hammond a historian who is sympathetic to the Greek view that the ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe and who has had several works published in Athens says that by the middle of the fourteenth and early fifteenth century the majority of people in the Peloponnese were Albanian speakers.

The continuing impact of this new ethnic and cultural force is indicated in Hammond's comments that the Albanian incursions into Greece continued under the Turkish system and went on right into the eighteenth century, and that the descendants of these Albanian people were still speaking Albanian when he was in Greece in the 1930s. This is not a reflection on the national consciousness of these Greek citizens, for as Hammond explains, they thought of themselves as Greek. Indeed Hammond points out that the Albanian role in the resistance to the Turks, and in the formation of the Greek nation, was significant. Like the Slavs, the Albanians became attached to their new lands, learned the new language, and began to think of themselves as one with the other peoples living there.

Finlay recognized " the vigorous Albanians of Hydra, the warlike Albanians of Suli, the persevering Bulgarians of Macedonia, and the laborious Vallachians on the banks of the Aspropotamos" who embarked together on a struggle for Greek independence, "as heartily as the posterity of the ancient inhabitants of the soil of Hellas. Nicholas Hammond tells us that in the Greek War of Independence the Albanians, above all, drove the Turks out.

According to anthropologist Roger Just, most of the nineteenth-century "Greeks," who had so recently won their independence from the Turks, not only did not call themselves Hellenes (they learned this label later from the intellectual nationalists); they did not even speak Greek by preference, but rather Albanian, Slavonic, or Vlach dialects."

The Editor of The Sunday Telegraph argues that Greece has been ruthless in erasing traces of ethnic diversity, and suggests that the desperation of its actions, including the Greek claim to a monopoly of the classical past (in which all peoples of European origins have a share) can be explained by the fact that the Greeks today are a mixture of Slavs, Turks, Greeks, Bulgars, Albanians, Vlachs, Jews and Gypsies.

 

... the name of one of the Albanian leaders who fought so valiantly for Greek Independence against the Ottoman Turks in 1820 was Laskarina Bubalina, a female commander? And that other Albanian leaders in that same Greek war against the Turks were eo Picari, Foto Xhavella, Gjon Leka, Rrapo Hekali, Hodo Leka, Tafil Buzi, Shahin Qafezezi, and Marko Boari?

http://www.frosina.org/infobits/more_012103.shtml


Clark quotes a Greek religious refrain from that era:

'Albanians, Wallachians, Bulgarians,
speakers of other tongues, rejoice!
And ready yourselves all to become Greeks
Abandoning your barbaric tongue, speech, customs
So that to your descendants they may appear as myths'

http://www.neww.org/pipermail/academic-resources/2000-August /000329.html

Nicholas Hammond a historian who is sympathetic to the Greek view that the ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe and who has had several works published in Athens, is unable to support the Greek view on this matter. He says that by the middle of the fourteenth
and early fifteenth century the majority of people in the
Peloponnese were Albanian speakers. The fascinating point is that the people with whom they were competing for land were overwhelmingly not the original Greek-speaking Roman citizens, but the new breed of Greek-speaking Slavs. As Hammond says, many Greek-
speaking people at that point in time were probably ethnic Slavs.

The continuing impact of this new ethnic and cultural force is indicated in Hammond's comments that the Albanian incursions into Greece continued under the Turkish system and went on right into the
eighteenth century, and that the descendants of these Albanian people were still speaking Albanian when he was in Greece in the 1930s. This is not a reflection on the national consciousness of these Greek citizens, for as Hammond explains, they thought of themselves as Greek. Indeed Hammond points out that the Albanian
role in the resistance to the Turks, and in the formation of the Greek nation, was significant. Like the Slavs, the Albanians became attached to their new lands, learned the new language, and began to think of themselves as one with the other peoples living there.

 

"I watched the Koutsovlachi disappear in Thessaly over a period of twenty years. I remember the first time I went up there in 1957, I was stunned, it was another world--it was Rumania. Blond, blue-eyed women wearing incredibly beautiful costumes: white, with about twelve to fifteen inches of thick fringes at the bottom, in saffron, black, and ocher. And everywhere I went, there were ducks and geese, which I didn't see anywhere else in Greece. Ducks and geese and pigs--standard east and central European farm culture. But I saw all of that disappear.

It's a pity because Greece has lost the Sarakatsani, it's lost the Vlachi, the Koutsovlachi, the Karagounidhes -- it's lost all these fascinating minority groups, and now people are getting up and trying to stop it, but they're about twenty years too late."

--"A Point of Contact: An Interview with Nikos Stavroulakis," by Peter Pappas in The Greek American (January 9, 1988)

To the Ottoman authorities what had always mattered were religious rather than national or linguistic differences; Balkan Christians were either under the authority of the Patriarch in chemas-microsoft-comfficemarttags" />lace>Constantinoplelace>, or they were more rarely Catholic or Protestant.

The Patriarch shared the same outlook; it was indifferent to whether its flocks spoke Greek, Vlach, Bulgarian or any other language or dialect. As for its flock , the illiterate Slav- speaking peasants tilling the fields outside the cities rarely felt strongly about Greece or Bulgaria and when asked which they were, many insisted on being known simply, as they had been for centuries, as Christians.

In Salonica itself, the growth of the Christian population had come from continual immigration over centuries from outlying villages, often as distant as the far side of the Pindos mountains, where many of the inhabitants spoke not Greek but a Vlach  ( a Romance language akin to Romanian), Albanian, or indeed various forms of  Slavic. They citeys life, schools and Priests gave these villagers, or their children, a new tongue, and turned them into Greeks. In fact many famous Greek figures of the past were really Vlachs by origin, including the savant Mosiodax, the revolutionary Rhigas  Velestinlis, as well as the citys first Greek printers, the Garbolas family, and the Manakis brothers, pioneers of Balkan cinema.

chemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />> >

lace>laceName>SalonicalaceName> laceType>CitylaceType>lace> of Ghosts

Mark Mazower

Page 257

> >

The Academy was built with  bequest from Simon Sinas, the hugely wealthy son of Georgios Sinas, a Hellenised Vlach whose family came from Moschopolis in Southern Albania, who made his fortune in the Habsburg Empire and was himself the donor of Theophilos Hansen's observatory (1843-6).

A concise history Of Greece
Richard Clogg
Page 79

 

WOW dude, what's motivating you to this? Really, nobody goes out of their way for this if there is no motivation. Anyways, no joke when I say I hope you find some peace. Mellow out buddy, you might even meet some people you like.



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  Quote philiptheuniter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 19:33

One more thing dude. Reading your post, it's full of poison. Hate is a nasty way to go through life mate. Hope you sort it out.

 

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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 19:54
Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO

About the "eratic" subsaharan genes(which was 2.9%). On diekenes site when it gave a list of them, it stated the Albanians tested were Arbresh(from Southern Italy). WHy didnt he do or show a test for the Albanians in Albania? Furtermore, why didnt he state that in this study?



Well, from what I understood, Dienekes Pontikos doesn't conduct these studies, he just presents them in his site.
After a couple of mails I've sent him, it's obvious that the dude does know his stuff. If you want more info I suggest you contact him, he's always willing to assist and answer to any questions.
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 20:22

No, I know the man is a professional. I have accesed that site many times and have used it's fun little calculator. ,

I just feel like there was some kind of motive behind not giving that info.

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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 20:41
Well he did title the article "GREEK MTDNA" so I guess that such details were irrelevent.
Where did you find that the Albanian samples were from S.Italy?
Every abstract I've seen makes no reference of that area, they just state that Michele Belledi presented results from 42 Albanians.

Edited by Phallanx
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2005 at 21:15

Well he did title the article "GREEK MTDNA" so I guess that such details were irrelevent.

True...

Well he did title the article "GREEK MTDNA" so I guess that such details were irrelevent.
Where did you find that the Albanian samples were from S.Italy?

Ofcourse, Ill post it as soon as I can find it again. It will tkae a while though...

 



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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2005 at 06:14
Originally posted by Phallanx

The word ''Greek'' is not much a term of birth as of mentality,and is applied to a common culture rather than a common descent....Isocrates.


Not necessarily.The evolution of the Hellenic civilization,is imaged on the meaning of those words.Whoever participates the Hellenic educational system,follows the Hellenic principles,speaks Hellenic(modern or ancient) etc is a Hellen.I think that he is trying to show.


Spartakus
Since our last discussion on this exact quote, I honestly believed you would have looked it up.

I am not going  to discuss it again.
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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2005 at 06:19
As long as you really see what the speech says, which has nothing to do with accepting anyone as a Helline.
I honestly have no problem with that.
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2005 at 06:22

I have my point of view on the subjet which does not focusing on what an ancient said 2000 years ago and you have yours.The end. 

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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2005 at 06:26
I've never mentioned your or my point of view, I'm clearly talking about how the specific quote is wrongly presented to support something Isocrates never said nor implied in the entire speech.
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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