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bg_turk
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Topic: The worst genocide in modern history Posted: 25-Jun-2006 at 12:11 |
Originally posted by Bulldog
Bg_Turk neither Mcarthy or any other historian who has presented facts regarding their figures has claimed over one million Armenians were killed.
Salahi Sonyel wrote 800,000 were deported, Bogos Nubar Pasha at 600,000-700,000 and Kevorkian at 870,000. Guenter Lewy writes that 642,000 Armenians died in the war, Proffessor Justic McCarthy who provided a very detailed demographic study proved that the Armenian casualties amounted to 600,000, Proffessor Stanford Shaw puts the figure at a bit less. |
Thanks for the clarification Bulldog, but I am pretty sure that I read from an academic source that Prof. McCarthy acknowledges that over a million have lost their lives. I will try to dig out the source and present it here.
edit:
here we go.
I posted the source some time ago in this thread.
In the review by Prof. Robert Olson you can find the following paragraph about McCarthy's book:
He states that the Armenain death rate 'was at least as great' , thus conceding for the first time, as far as I am aware, that the Armenian death rate was higher than 1 million and 'cannot be ignored' (p.230).
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Edited by bg_turk - 25-Jun-2006 at 12:37
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Digenis
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Posted: 25-Jun-2006 at 15:34 |
600 members voted ? I think some people voted about 100 times .
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mamikon
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Posted: 25-Jun-2006 at 17:44 |
@ bg Turk, bulldog...I am not going to discuss the Armenian Genocide
again. You believe what you choose, I dont really give a damn. The fact
still stands that many more people accept it than deny it.
have fun...
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mamikon
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Posted: 25-Jun-2006 at 19:51 |
by the way, In case you are interested, here is a letter from the
International Association of Genocide Scholars to Erdogan (President of
Turkey)
and it is rather funny that some people would like to believe a handful
of "historians" who are not even considered historians rather than 126
historians who specialize in Genocide Studies, and all of whom
accept the Armenian Genocide. Their argument only being that Armenia
and the Armenian Diaspora has somehow bribed all those
historians...pitiful
http://www.genocidewatch.org/TurkishPMIAGSOpenLetterreArmenia6-13-05.htm
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Guests
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Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 03:58 |
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Bulldog
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Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 09:07 |
Mamikon
and it is rather funny that some people would like to believe a handful of "historians"
Again the sad situation of mainstream Armenian thought today.
Its not a handfull its literally hundreds of renown historians who refute Armenian claims of Genocide and are exposing the serious crimes of Armenian propoganda.
I'd rather believe Guenter Lewy and Stanford Shaw rather than Dradian
The worst part of this is that some Armenians like to use the word "denial", however, I don't see any Turks denying that Armenians died and suffered, even the official state position agrees with this, so what exactly is it that their denying? they accept many died that there were even massacres comitted and it was a tragic war situation. The only thing they do not accept is the fraudalent claim that 1.5 million were killed in a planned systematic genocide simply because such an event didn't occur and has never been objectively proven to have happened.
However, what is frightening is the Armenian denial, many fail to accept that they killed many innocent Turks and comitted massacres, they fail to realise that the people on the "other side" suffered just as much as they did but show no sympathy to this what-so-ever.
After the Circassian genocide millions fled to what is now modern day Turkey, the descendants of the Cherkez, Chechens, Karacay, Azeri Turks, Daghestani people's etc etc today number millions upon millions in modern day Turkey, they suffered such horrendous crimes against them which is kept very hush hush.
Add onto this millions who fled the Balkans and that the newly migrated peoples thought an independance war on top of this and somehow managed to actually be victorious against all the odds and you can begin to understand why these people are proud of their achievement and why they reject any claim of genocide. These were extremely improvrished people who were on the defensive protecting their land from further occupation, they were fighting a war.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 26-Jun-2006 at 21:42 |
Originally posted by Bulldog
Its not a handfull its literally hundreds of renown historians who
refute Armenian claims of Genocide and are exposing the serious crimes
of Armenian propoganda. |
I don't know, when I asked my history professors at college about
historians who don't believe a genocide occured, they told me that the
people who make those claims are not accredited historians and the
institutions don't take them seriously. One even told me, "I've never
met a serious historian who has said it didn't happen."
I want to understand your point though. You're saying the vast
majority
of historians and their institutions throughout the world are being
bribed and all of the countries who have passed genocide bills are just
naive (unless you
mean to say everyone is just stupid). Besides the vast number of
historians and institutions, what about
the load of contemporary foreign eye-witnesses who documented the
genocide
first-hand.
Were they bribed too, or perhaps victims of propaganda?
What about Dr. Lemkin, who created the word "genocide" and
adamantly stated that he created the word in order to describe what had
happened to the Jews of WW2 and the Armenians of WW1? How do you apply
the word "genocide" to other events while rejecting one of his most
fundamental examples of genocide?
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Guests
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Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 00:42 |
Bulldog , I appreciate your input on behalf of Circassian nation, you mentioned some good points and researches about what happened.
Who ever got mad at me and the blood pressure went up so high that he could not finish reading what I wrote should consider finishing my message before judging what it says in the beginning.
I never said that any genocide is good, and I personally was affected by a Genocide when my entire family back in 1860-s was burned in the barn and only one 16 year old boy (my grate grandfather 5 generations back) survived and had to run south into the mountains to survive the massacre.
Russia not only killed our people, they made the 5 % remaining in the homeland suffer terrible Humiliation. No Circassian had write to leave his home or village without permission from Russian officer. The water in the Caucasus region was poisoned at one time by Russian army with plague, which killed enormous amount of people.
I can keep telling you the terrible things that were done to children and pregnant women, but its not the point I want to concentrate on.
I said before and I want to repeat again, that every other genocide that happened was recognized, and people who suffered TERRIBLE things got at least official apologies and some of their values back. Circassians did not get any recognition, and have no rights to return to their Homeland.
The worst part about all of this is that by kicking Circassians out of Homeland, Russians made sure that our language would not survive as well. The alphabet was transfer to Cyrillics and now 5/6 of Circassian people who live outside the homeland do not know how to read and write THEIR OWN LANGUAGE, they only learned how to speak from their grandparents.
About 15 years ago, when communism was still there, Circassians in Homeland had no clue about what really happened. Information was covered up by Russian historians and rewritten.
When I studied history there was nothing about the Genocide of Circassians or even a war for 101 years !! the Longest war in worlds history between Russian and Caucasus (Circassia).
Not only that Circassians in Homeland (5 % remaining) were separated in 3 groups: Adygeyans, Cherkess and Kabardians. After separating Circassians , Russians made sure they put enough people to live in our land to bled us so we never get up and fight Russia.
Hundreds of thousands of Kazaks and Russians were moved to Caucasus.
Soviet power formed republics which consisted out of minority Circassians and majority everybody else in the mix.
After that official language was made Russian, and policy of communism was enforced on our people, which stated that EVERYONE IS SAME, meaning everyone is Russian.
For 150 years Circassian people were forced NOT TO BE CIRCASSIAN, forget their language, their culture, their heritage and all of that was done to us after terrible GENOCIDE and Exile.
Our grandparents were crying telling us those stories of terrible childhood away from home in Turkey, when NO ONE cared if you live or die.
The situation with Circassians in Turkey was nothing better then in Russia, I would like to talk about that next time.
Im really making this a short message, because there is a lot and lot more to say about the FORGOTTEN CIRCASSIAN GENOCIDE.
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Bulldog
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Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 07:18 |
Armenian Survival you refuse to open your mind and be objective. Countries can pass a bill to win votes, to stop the Armenian lobby pestering them and if they have some sort of agenda against Turkey.
Its not up to other countries to decide what happened, this is between Armenia and Turkey to sort out, it wouldnt matter if the entire world accepted or refused to accept what happened was a genocide if you cannot sort it out between each other all the rest is hot air and propoganda.
Now the Armenian Lobby has been using unbelieveble methods to try and exaggerate its point, there are so many lies that they don't want historians to look into the events because their thesis will be drastically tones down and the realities of the suffering Turks also went through will be exposed.
The Turks only recently have began to get their act together and start building stronger lobbies and having more educated acedemics in the West who could provide the other side of the so-far one-sided anti-Turk propoganda. Also many countries have rejected that what happened can be termed a Genocide.
All it takes is for objective historians to look into the issue from scratch, ignore the exaggerated Armenian and Turkish claims and all previous studies provided by the exageraters and people with agenda's, do an objective study and they will see that what happened was a tragedy for both Turks and Armenians but not a planned-systematic genocide. Guenter Lewy is an example of this he had no connection to Turks or Armenians.
Circassian thanks for your posts, its very sad to realise that hardly any of this is known in the mainstream West.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 12:29 |
1. Name me one country (besides Turkey or Azerbaijan) who denies
that an Armenian genocide took place. Note that just because a country
hasn't passed a bill, doesn't mean they deny it. Also, Turkey threatens
every country which passes a genocide bill, so theres not really much
in it for these countries. I don't see how appeasing to a small
minority gives a nation a political advantage...on the contrary, by not
accepting it do they gain the political advantage of having Turkey on
their side.
2. Name me a dozen historians (out of the hundreds that you
claim) who deny the genocide. What are their claims? Is there a reason
that their arguments are considered invalid by all the scholarly
institutions? You might want to ask these questions.
Btw, even 100 historians is not much when you consider how many
historians and institutions accept the Armenian genocide worldwide. You
can easily find 100 "historians" who deny the Holocaust, too. It
doesn't mean anything, since they are not accredited by a scholarly
institution, similar to historians who deny the Armenian genocide.
3. How do you apply the word 'genocide' to other events while
rejecting one of Dr. Lemkin's fundamental assertions of genocide (that
what happened to the Armenians was a clear-cut case of genocide)?
You didn't address any of my points, you just kept going on about
how Armenians control international public opinion and all the major
scholarly institutions (it basically sounds like the accusations given
by anti-semites, who claim that Jews secretly control everything with their "propaganda").
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
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Jay.
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Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 21:41 |
Almost no one posted about the Bosnian genocide, yet it has 128 votes.
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Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava
Only Unity Can Save the Serb
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Mila
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Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 21:58 |
I think it's hard to rank genocides in this way, but if I had to choose it would be between the Jews and Gypsies.
The Jews simply because of the enormous geographical area the genocide
impacted, it's methodical nature, the overall percentage of the
population exterminated, and other attributes.
The Gypsies for all these reasons but, additionally, because they were and remain relatively forgotten.
The Bosnian genocide for these reasons as well, but instead of being
forgotten it's special "bonus points" (? Yech) attribute is that the
entire world knew it was happening, when it was happening, had promised
before Never Again, and still allowed it to drag on until it was simply
too embarrassing to ignore.
Darfur... the same thing, only it seems Black deaths aren't enough to embarrass the Western powers.
I could go on, but I won't. lol My face is red enough as it is. ;)
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mamikon
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Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 22:38 |
What is there to post about the Bosnian Genocide? It happened in the center of Europe, in front of everyone to see...
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 04:59 |
Yes Bosnian Genocide happened center of the Europe and ALL the Europen Countries just watched, i am sure that some of them also were glad about this situation. Even Dutch (UN) soldiers let go Serbs...We knows double standarts of EU.
Anyway, lets see some photos... do we need write somethings?
Serb tanks fire on Srebrenica.
Ratko Mladic, indicted Serb war criminal, arrives to take charge of Srebrenica.
"On to Potocari!" Mladic is shouting - he wants to occupy the Dutch UN base immediately
Aftermath of the warehouse massacre
The mass graves
7,079 men are estimated by the Red Cross to have died at Srebrenica. Thousands were executed and dumped in mass graves. The grave at Pilica farm, twenty feet deep and a hundred feet long, was excavated by forensic pathologists in 1996. Photo by Gilles Peress (from The Graves: Srebrenica and Vukovar [Scalo Books, 1998]).
http://www.gendercide.org/photo1.html
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/cryfromthegrave/
http://www.gendercide.org/case_srebrenica.html
Edited by Glenn - 28-Jun-2006 at 05:04
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Guests
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Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 10:33 |
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Komnenos
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Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 04:42 |
Posted that a year ago:
From a lecture by Afif Safieh, the Palestinian General Delegate to the UK, delivered at the Royal Institute for International Affairs, in London :
I never indulge in comparative martyrology. If I were a Jew or a Gypsy, Nazi barbarity would be the most horrible event in history. If I were a Native American it would be the arrival of European settlers that resulted in almost total extermination. If I were a black African, it would be slavery in previous centuries and apartheid during last century. If I were an Armenian, it would the Ottoman/Turkish massacres. If I were a Palestinian - and I happen to be one - it would be the Nakba. Humanity should condemn all the above. I do not know of a way to measure suffering or how to quantity pain but what I do know is that we are not children of a lesser god. (The Independent 9/8/05)
Wise words indeed!
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Leonidas
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Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 08:44 |
i really find it hard to vote on this, whats the measure? % of poulation killed, total killed. Its all quite subjective
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Guests
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Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 12:15 |
Zass, near his encampment, on top of a specially prepared small hill, fixed Circassian heads on top of lances, with their beards flying in the air. It was very disturbing to see this scene. One day Zass, agreed to remove the heads from the lances after the request of a guest lady. We were also his guests at the time. When I entered the study room of the General, I was struck by a strong, disgusting smell. Smiling, Zass told us that there were boxes in which the heads were placed under his bed. Then he pulled a big box in which there were couple big-eyed, horribly looking heads. I asked him why he keeps them there. He replied: I boil them, clean them, and send them to my professor friends in Berlin for the study of anatomy. Dekabrist Lorer
Russian-Kazakh women were walking in the battlefields and cutting the heads of Circassian men, after the war is over. Originally German, General Zass was paying them a good amount of money for doing that. Until he was warned by his supervisors to give up this, Zass continued to boil, clean and send many heads to Berlin.
I think thats why Germans used make Genocide, they have their soul. May be General Zass Hitler's relative.. hehe!
Edited by Sattis - 29-Jun-2006 at 12:24
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Guests
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Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 13:34 |
The most disgusting thing about general Zass I that whatever he did to Circassian people he did not get punished for.
Russia made him a national hero, on conquering the Caucasus, and there is place on Black Sea coast named after him.
This is really outrageous, not only they committed Circassian Genocide, but they made Circassians of several generations later believe that Zass and Lazarev and other generals are HEROES of Russian empire.
How can we even talk about democracy in Russian Federation when things like these are done on purpose with Circassian nation.
P.S. That was exactly my question. How do you grade a genocide ? And what makes it worse. Whatever happened then, or whatever happens after the fact and effects many generations of exiled nation.
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Guests
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Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 13:59 |
The following is a translation for a letter in Arabic Language, dated 16, June, 2006, that was posted to NAFEN PRESSE/Circassian Forum, by Hassan Sheroukh:
Our destiny is for wars to follow us wherever we go. In motherland Tsarist Russia committed genocide against hundreds of thousands of us and expelled thousands more, then the Soviet Union finished up the ones who stayed alive, and when our world population reached two million, Federal Russia blackmailed our identity in return for the "right to go home" to motherland, while our host homelands got the maximum benefits out of us until the last drop of our blood. We fight in the front lines and some of us die as shaheeds and deceased. We are awarded republican and royal medals, and if we returned alive and solicit for our basic rights, many whisper and others shout: You are strangers and guests with us... Don't forget that you are Circassians...!?
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