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Topic ClosedThe worst genocide in modern history

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Poll Question: which one is the worst genocide of modern history
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
160 [21.92%]
150 [20.55%]
106 [14.52%]
16 [2.19%]
191 [26.16%]
107 [14.66%]
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: The worst genocide in modern history
    Posted: 01-Aug-2005 at 16:24

Armenians are free since the beginning of the Republic which is established 1923 in establishing their own schools, chuches, journals etc in Turkey. They were also free in Ottoman times.

what type of lie is this? did you ever ask an armenian about this issue? No they were more free(until last 50-100 year) at ottoman than Turkey.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2005 at 17:30

Originally posted by Alparslan

In Ottoman territories many Christian aid organiziations were working. The most famous one was Near East Relief organization. If this would be a genocide why did Ottomans allow them to work to help Armenians?

What was the Ottoman Empire going to do, say no? If they refused these international organizations from entering their country, they would basically be advertising that there was a genocide. They let them in, and allowed them to operate under much difficult circumstances. You might want to check the records of these organizations that set up hospitals in the empire, so you can read their accounts (non-Armenian and non-Turkish accounts) of the government-sponsored atrocities that were committed against Armenians and other minorities.

Originally posted by Alparslan

Hunger, epidemics such as influenza, typhus,and cholera, assaults etc. have killed lots of Armenians but Ottomans have to do this as Americans relocated Japanese Americans in WWII after Pearl Harbor.

When the Americans relocated Japanese Americans in WWII, it was stricly economical, we went over this today in my college history class. The Anglo-American population lobbied the government to relocate the Japanese out of the west coast, because the Japanese were rivaling the Anglo-Americans in business. The Japanese were forced to sell their properties and businesses at extremely low prices, and the people who bought them were--guess who-- the same Anglo-American businessmen that lobbied for their relocation. They relocated them on the grounds that they would aid the Japanese by spying and espionage. There was never a single reported case of a Japanese in America who committed an act of treason.

Some Germans and Italians in America actually did do espionage for their respective countries, and they were caught. Why do you think they never relocated Germans or Italians in America? They werent forced to relocate because Germans and Italians were not easy social targets like the Japanese, and were not in major economic competition with anyone in the U.S.

Same situation with the Armenians. Many Armenians actually did move back to their villages and cities years after the war, with their written contract of ownership of their property. However, when they went back, there were Turks living in their houses, and they were never given back their rightful property. Ive heard many cases like this, Armenians even sued the American insurance company that was supposed to take care of their financial rights during the war. Many Armenians still have their property contracts from Ottoman days, but the government had already moved in a Turkish population to live in the thousands of abandoned Armenian-owned houses.

 

Originally posted by Alparslan

After war Armenian may return but they prefered to come with French army under French uniform to south Anatolia. They have occupied Adana, Antep and Maras. They have demanded from the allied forces an independent Armenia in the Sevres treaty due to the fact that they have supported allied forces against Ottoman Empire which was in fact their own country.

You're right, *part* of the Ottoman Empire was what many nations recognize as Armenian land (Eastern Anatolia). The Sevres treaty was supposed to give that land to an independent Armenian Republic, but it was ripped up in a secret meeting of i believe only 6 nations (Armenia was not part of this meeting, even though the treaty directly affected them). One of the members of this meeting was the Turkish Republic, and they saw it best to get rid of the treaty in secret along with the small handful of nations present at the secret meeting.

The Armenians were actually abandoned by the French in Cilicia, after the French had casually disarmed the Armenian population in that area.

 

The Armenian schools and churches in Turkey have never been renovated by government money, unlike Turkish schools and mosques. Also, UNESCO has sent many complaints to the Turkish government about their complete lack of maintenance towards ancient Armenian buildings in Eastern Anatolia. Also, on every Turkish tour of Eastern Turkey, they do not mention the Armenians even once, even though Armenians had been building a civilization there since before Christ. What explanation does the Turkish government have for this?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Aug-2005 at 01:58

Originally posted by Mixcoatl

That list is completely wrong.
Hitler killed 50 million, Mao 40, Stalin 30 (numbers of Mao and Stalin include famines). Also Leopold II of Belgium killed about 10 million people, as did Chiang Kai Shek.
The number of deaths in Algeria were about half a million and De Gaulle is definately not the only one to blame. The number of deaths caused by Kim Il Sung is very unkown, but it's definately more than 1,6 million.
Furthermore Lenin (6 million), Saddam (2 million), Suharto (2 million) and Yahya Khan (1,2 million) should be in that list as well. I think even Johnson and/or Nixon may get more than 1 million deaths.

 

Mao is the greatest mass murderer in history.  he killed 65 million.  Nazism is responsible for some 21 million murders but your fifty million probably comes from the fact that they are responsible for a war in which 40-60 million people were killed.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 03:33
From a lecture by Afif Safieh, the Palestinian General Delegate to the UK, delivered at the Royal Institute for International Affairs, in London :

I never indulge in comparative martyrology. If I were a Jew or a Gypsy, Nazi barbarity would be the most horrible event in history. If I were a Native American it would be the arrival of European settlers that resulted in almost total extermination. If I were a black African, it would be slavery in previous centuries and apartheid during last century. If I were an Armenian, it would the Ottoman/Turkish massacres. If I were a Palestinian - and I happen to be one - it would be the Nakba. Humanity should condemn all the above. I do not know of a way to measure suffering or how to quantity pain but what I do know is that we are not children of a lesser god. (The Independent 9/8/05)

Wise words indeed!


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 07:50
Some very knowledgeable answers we've seen in this pool, unfortunately I did not have time to read everything, but there is something big everyone is missing in the discussion.
I think everyone knows how big tragedies of nations casted in the vote were. But did we ever think about what happened AFTER the Genocide?
Lets take native American Indian genocide, which was a bloody war, and now American government gave Native Americans so much power and benefits, that Ive never seen a poor Indian. Im not saying that its wrong, I believe that Indians deserve everything they got back in tax brakes, in benefits and rights from US government, and they took advantage of opportunity. Built Casinos , became millioners and so on.
Speaking of Jewish genocide during Nazis. It was terrible thing, 6 million was killed over all, but it was WW2 and whatever was done to Jews was done to every POW in that time. I read many descriptions of what Nazis did with Soviet soldiers while capture in camps. Over all Germany apologized thousands times and will be apologizing for the rest of century for what happened, Will have to pay back to Jews for what they lost and has no right to deny the Holocaust, if you do you go to jailthats how serious it is.
Armenians are doing great job to make Turkey recognize their genocide, they put political, financial and strategic pressure from all sidesUSA and EN, so its a matter of time now before they get what they wont. After all Armenians have their country, their flag, their hymn and history.
Im not going to go further on other nation , I would like to bring your attention to *** Circassian Genocide.***
As I mentioned, every nation got recognition for what they had to suffer, got apologies back, got rights and their voice was heard.
But the only Genocide that was Forgotten was Circassian Genocide, when over 1.5 million People were killed or kicked out of their Homeland.
Not only that happened, until today Circassians around the world have NO RIGHTS on their own turf. 5 million Circassians live outside Russia and have to get visa from Russian government to visit their Homeland.
Thousands of families were broken apart and never seen each other again.
In today world with democracy and human rights movement, Circassians are being suppressed in their own homeland, and those who are outside have no possible way of returning.
Circassians lost their country, their history was rewritten, people were lied to about their past.
Our nation was brainwashed about the great Russo-Circassian war, and they made us believe that there was no Genocide and Exile.
In Russian history books it says that Circassians joined Russia willingly to avoid Ottoman invasion. That is a straight lie. Ottomans and Russians used Circassian nation as a bumper for their political games in Caucasus and destroyed entire culture, one of the oldest in the world.

I would like to ask forum members one question. How can we grade Genocide of any nation? Is it by the amount of people killed? Is it by the percentage of dead to the total amount of people in the nation? Is it by the way it was done? Or is it by the consequences that affected the future of entire ethnos and many of generations after the event?

To tell you the truth, Circassian Genocide is the worst genocide until 19th century by number of casualties (over 1,5 million), and IMHO is the worst genocide in the after effect of what happenedwhen the whole culture was wiped out and barely lives today..

P.S. until today Circassians do not eat fish from the Black Sea, because that fish has been eating our ancestors for over a century now and the bottom of that sea is covered with Circassian sculls.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 18:03
Originally posted by Circassian

 
Lets take native American Indian genocide, which was a bloody war, and now American government gave Native Americans so much power and benefits, that Ive never seen a poor Indian. Im not saying that its wrong, I believe that Indians deserve everything they got back in tax brakes, in benefits and rights from US government, and they took advantage of opportunity. Built Casinos , became millioners and so on.
 
 
Wow! i had never thought about the overall benefits of a genocide. I wish someone had carried out a genocide on my ancestors, then i would be a millionaire now. U see I want a casino too. Sorry, couldnt read past the paragraph, something to do with the blood pressure.


Edited by malizai_ - 24-Jun-2006 at 22:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 18:37
original post deleted.
... sorry ... I misunderstood the above post because of my little knowledge of the Circassian issue. Thanks for providing info.


Edited by bg_turk - 24-Jun-2006 at 18:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 18:44
How can the Circassian Genocide be directed at Turkey Bg_Turk, most of the survivers of the genocide fled to safe refuge into the borders of what is now Turkey. It really was one of the most disgusting genocides and what is worse the most un-talked about genocide.
 
The Genocide of the Jews aswell as the gypsies and other people slaughtered by the Nazi's was the worst because of the manner in which it was carried out and the initial silence of the neighbours of Germany.
Testing these people like animals on weapons, as crash course dummies, for medical purposes and other sick sick digusting in-humane attrocities. Putting them in slave camps were they were exterminated after doing the job and making successfull companies of today like Mercedes and BMW advanced and successfull.
 
The option given for the Armenian-Ottoman war is ridiculous, there was no genocide but a tragic war in which massacres occured on both sides. Armenians brainwashed into believing that Russia would grant them "Greater Armenia" thought that they could defeat the decaying Ottomans at their weakest point.
 
Objective historians give the figures of Armenian deaths between 300-800,000.
 
But what do we ever hear about the other 5 million, the 5 million killed and forced to suffer in silence, when will we hear about their plight?
 
 
Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922
 
 
 
 

Reviewed by Daniel Pipes

McCarthy has unearthed a horrifying and extremely important fact: that in the course of the century between the Greek war of independence and World War I, the Ottoman Empire suffered five and a half million dead and five million refugees. He deems this Europe's largest lost of life and emigration since the Thirty Years' War. Christian suffering in this time and place is well-known; McCarthy shows the other side, that "Muslim communities in an area as large as all of western Europe had been diminished or destroyed." His study minutely reviews the regions and wars, pulling information from foreign and Ottoman sources to produce a compelling account.

Those who have objectively researched the events realise that the Armenian diaspora has desperatly tried to invent history and exaggerate their suffering and minimilise the suffering they caused.

It was an Armenian and Turkish tragedy, the whole of WW1 was untill their successfull struggle for Independance.
 
 
How about Stalin, why isn't the killing of nearly 15 million people included as a genocide on the list? Or the Namibia Genocide by the Germans? or Cambodia or Ruwanda?
 
 


Edited by Bulldog - 23-Jun-2006 at 18:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2006 at 21:02
Originally posted by bulldog

Objective historians give the figures of Armenian deaths between 300-800,000.


even more objective ones give 60,000, head of Turkish Historical Society,  Halacoglu...LOL

and how many times is it possible to post the same book over and over and over and over...cant you find other denialist books... (there should be 4 or 5...)

Originally posted by bulldog

Armenians brainwashed into believing that Russia would grant them "Greater Armenia" thought that they could defeat the decaying Ottomans at their weakest point.


I really doubt there are 96 Armenians here...so I am assuming many many other nationals were also brainwashed into believing that Russia would grant them "Greater Armenia" thought that they could defeat the decaying Ottomans at their weakest point.

seriously though, I thought we were not supposed to discuss the Armenian Genocide, or is that honor only applicable to Armenians and Greeks on this forum?


Edited by mamikon - 23-Jun-2006 at 21:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 03:16

                                                                                                       
It was really the first intentional large-scale genocide of the modern times, as well as the model case of the consequent tradition of ethnic cleansing. It was also the largest single genocide of the 19th century. It preceded the wave of pogroms and deportations that Russia used against the Jews, and it also preceded the tragic consequences that the same Russian expansion wars against Turkish territories had on Armenians after the turn of the century. For some reason, the Circassian genocide has never been given proper attention or researched well. The Circassian genocide ended at about same time with the launching of the Jewish deportations in 1880s, when more than three million Circassians had been expelled from the territories occupied by Russia. The numbers of those who were killed, are not known. Anyway, it meant 90 per cent of the whole Circassian population.
.  Anssi Kullberg, The Eurasian Politician - October 2003

-----

The massacre of the Circassians, a forgotten people, serves as the subject of Stephen D. Shenfields essay. The Circassians were forced to resettle after the tsarist conquest of their territory. Their homeland rested in the northwestern Caucasus and on the northeastern shore of the Black Sea--along the southern border of the Russian empire. Before the Russian invasion, Circassia possessed two million people and an area of 55,663 square kilometers. They fought against Russian invasions from 1763-1864 and ultimately were defeated, with many Circassians being deported to Turkey. The decision to deport the Circassians came in 1860; the Russians invaded from the north, accompanied by mobile columns of riflemen and Cossack cavalry; four thousand Circassian families left for Turkey. In 1862, Russian soldiers burned Circassian villages and trampled the crops; those who fled died in the forests and mountains of hunger and exposure. The Russian General Babich took his soldiers south, burning Circassian villages along the way. In May 1864, the remaining Circassians bonded together in a frenzied battle and emerged triumphant over the Russian invaders; the victory, however, proved to be short-lived because the Russians returned with more artillery and soundly defeated the Circassian men and women; dissatisfied by only killing the Circassian adults, the triumphant Russian soldiers sought out the children and shot cannon shells at them.
Article by Eric Sterling, Studies on War and Genocide, Idea Journal, Jan. 2001
Mark Levene and Penny Roberts (eds)  Vol. 1 in the series War and Genocide, Oxford and New York:
Berghahn Books, 1999.
 Includes The Circassians: A Forgotten Genocide? By Stephen D. Shenfield.

http://www.ideajournal.com/articles.php?id=32

 


Edited by Glenn - 24-Jun-2006 at 03:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 08:40
Originally posted by malizai_

Originally posted by Circassian

 
Lets take native American Indian genocide, which was a bloody war, and now American government gave Native Americans so much power and benefits, that Ive never seen a poor Indian. Im not saying that its wrong, I believe that Indians deserve everything they got back in tax brakes, in benefits and rights from US government, and they took advantage of opportunity. Built Casinos , became millioners and so on.
 
 
Wow! i had never thought about the overall benefits of a genocide. I wish someone had carried out a genocide on my ancestors, then i would be a millionaire now. U see I want a casino too. Sorry, couldnt read past the paragraph, something to do with the blood pressure. TOIDI.
 
i thought people here are educatd enough to understand what is meant by that,??!!!
All that im saying is that most of these genocides have been recognized internationally, not like our genocide where not so many people care about or know about. We still dont have a place to live in and we still suffer from it till this day. and everyone stood there and watched what happened and till now no one is willing to recognize this genocide and nothin has been done to bring us back together not to create a country or whatever, just to keep our wonderful culture alive.?? CULTURE?? and not to forget our LANGUAGE. which some of its dialects have been lost forever.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 08:41

"These Circassians are just like your American Indians - as untamable and uncivilized... and, owing to their natural energy of character, extermination only would keep them quiet"

this was said by a russian czar to an american ambassador


Edited by Circassian - 24-Jun-2006 at 08:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 10:10
[QUOTE] It was really the first intentional large-scale genocide of the modern times, as well as the model case of the consequent tradition of ethnic cleansing. It was also the largest single genocide of the 19th century. It preceded the wave of pogroms and deportations that Russia used against the Jews, and it also preceded the tragic consequences that the same Russian expansion wars against Turkish territories had on Armenians after the turn of the century. For some reason, the Circassian genocide has never been given proper attention or researched well. The Circassian genocide ended at about same time with the launching of the Jewish deportations in 1880s, when more than three million Circassians had been expelled from the territories occupied by Russia. The numbers of those who were killed, are not known. Anyway, it meant 90 per cent of the whole Circassian population..  Anssi Kullberg, The Eurasian Politician - October 2003

-----

The massacre of the Circassians, a forgotten people, serves as the subject of Stephen D. Shenfields essay. The Circassians were forced to resettle after the tsarist conquest of their territory. Their homeland rested in the northwestern Caucasus and on the northeastern shore of the Black Sea--along the southern border of the Russian empire. Before the Russian invasion, Circassia possessed two million people and an area of 55,663 square kilometers. They fought against Russian invasions from 1763-1864 and ultimately were defeated, with many Circassians being deported to Turkey. The decision to deport the Circassians came in 1860; the Russians invaded from the north, accompanied by mobile columns of riflemen and Cossack cavalry; four thousand Circassian families left for Turkey. In 1862, Russian soldiers burned Circassian villages and trampled the crops; those who fled died in the forests and mountains of hunger and exposure. The Russian General Babich took his soldiers south, burning Circassian villages along the way. In May 1864, the remaining Circassians bonded together in a frenzied battle and emerged triumphant over the Russian invaders; the victory, however, proved to be short-lived because the Russians returned with more artillery and soundly defeated the Circassian men and women; dissatisfied by only killing the Circassian adults, the triumphant Russian soldiers sought out the children and shot cannon shells at them.
Article by Eric Sterling, Studies on War and Genocide, Idea Journal, Jan. 2001
Mark Levene and Penny Roberts (eds)  Vol. 1 in the series War and Genocide, Oxford and New York:
Berghahn Books, 1999.
 Includes The Circassians: A Forgotten Genocide? By Stephen D. Shenfield.

http://www.ideajournal.com/articles.php?id=32 [/QUOTE]

Exactly, this was truly one of the most shocking and disgusting genocides, the people of the Caucauses well especially the Muslims and Jews were almost exterminated.

Alot of the survivers fled to the safer terrotories of what is now Eastern Modern day Turkey and later had to fight another war against the Russians this time accompanied by the Armenians wanting even more land however, this time they were victorious however, they were condemned by Armenians after basically because the Armenians couldn't accept defeat and that Russia had merely used them and forgotten about them after the revolution.
 

 


Edited by Bulldog - 24-Jun-2006 at 10:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 12:37
Alot of the survivers fled to the safer terrotories of what is now Eastern Modern day Turkey and later had to fight another war against the Russians this time accompanied by the Armenians wanting even more land however, this time they were victorious however, they were condemned by Armenians after basically because the Armenians couldn't accept defeat and that Russia had merely used them and forgotten about them after the revolution.

lol, what in the hell are you talking about...first of all those lands were already Armenian, Armenians didnt want more land. Second of all, I am pretty sure Armenians had no clue who Circassians were and vice-versa.

Your arguments are becoming more and more ridiculous...

Also, why are you so keen on believing the Circassian Genocide (or should I say "so called"?) than the Armenian Genocide... and a note, you started the discussion of the Armenian Genocide, not me...




Edited by mamikon - 24-Jun-2006 at 12:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 13:21
Originally posted by Hormoz

Originally posted by Mixcoatl

That list is completely wrong.
Hitler killed 50 million, Mao 40, Stalin 30 (numbers of Mao and Stalin include famines). Also Leopold II of Belgium killed about 10 million people, as did Chiang Kai Shek.
The number of deaths in Algeria were about half a million and De Gaulle is definately not the only one to blame. The number of deaths caused by Kim Il Sung is very unkown, but it's definately more than 1,6 million.
Furthermore Lenin (6 million), Saddam (2 million), Suharto (2 million) and Yahya Khan (1,2 million) should be in that list as well. I think even Johnson and/or Nixon may get more than 1 million deaths.

 

Mao is the greatest mass murderer in history.  he killed 65 million.  Nazism is responsible for some 21 million murders but your fifty million probably comes from the fact that they are responsible for a war in which 40-60 million people were killed.

 
conur with your estimate....but this thread imo...falls short of accuracy capability...and treats exclusively with the modern generation and how is that being defined from the age of enlightenment forward?....the 19th century forward? hence the numbers for jews for example could greatly rise as the pogroms of eastern europe and russia can not be added if we simply use the 20th century.Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 18:18
Originally posted by mamikon

...cant you find other denialist books... (there should be 4 or 5...)
 
A denialist book? Care to clarify what the book is denying? Is it a denial to research on the Genocide comitted by Armenians on Turks?
 
Sorry if I may sound too harsh, but the only denialist I can see around here is yourelf. No one is in denial of the killings against Armenians, you are the one who is denial of the Turkish deaths.
 
 
By the way, Bulldog, the number of Armenians that perished in the period is above a million and McCarthy acknowledges that. Of course the Armenian propaganda machine is trying to make us think that they were all victims of Genocide. But it must be made clear that this number is a projection with a great uncertainty range based on the estimated number of Armenian before and after the World War. To say the the difference is the number killed in a Genocide is utter rubbish of course. The number includes the the hundreds of thousands Armenian soldiers that perished in the war, and of course those that died under the conditios of disease and starvation during their exile (muslims were similarly affected and suffered a similar mortality rate during their exile from the preceeding years). Whether all one million Armenians died as a result of Genocide is questioable, but I think that there is solid demographic evidence that inidcates that at least one million have indeed died.   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2006 at 22:25
Originally posted by Circassian

Speaking of Jewish genocide during Nazis. It was terrible thing, 6 million was killed over all, but it was WW2 and whatever was done to Jews was done to every POW in that time. I read many descriptions of what Nazis did with Soviet soldiers while capture in camps.

    

Thats very inaccurate. The main reason the Russian POW's were treated that way was because they were considered sub-human like the jews. American, British and other allied POW's for the most were not taken to the extermination camps. There are occasions and incidents where they were executed but never treated has harshly as the russians or other german classified sub-human races like the jews or gypsys.


I've only read extensively about the german holecaust(alot), rape of Nanking and the khmer rouge. And in conclusion I'd say that every genocide thats happened since the dawn of humankind is the worst ever. None are better they were all horrible. Had I been involved in one then I could imagine i would say it was the worst(good read however posted that btw).

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2006 at 00:52
Originally posted by bg Turk

"Sorry if I may sound too harsh, but the only denialist I can see around here is yourelf. No one is in denial of the killings against Armenians, you are the one who is denial of the Turkish deaths."


Haven't we been through this before? The stateless Armenian minority carried out a Genocide against the Great Ottoman Empire...give me a break (and everyone else), I wonder who takes that seriously.


Edited by mamikon - 25-Jun-2006 at 00:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2006 at 11:28
Bg_Turk neither Mcarthy or any other historian who has presented facts regarding their figures has claimed over one million Armenians were killed.
 
Salahi Sonyel wrote 800,000 were deported, Bogos Nubar Pasha at 600,000-700,000 and  Kevorkian at 870,000. Guenter Lewy writes that 642,000 Armenians died in the war, Proffessor Justic McCarthy who provided a very detailed demographic study proved that the Armenian casualties amounted to 600,000, Proffessor Stanford Shaw puts the figure at a bit less.
 
 
Mamikon
lol, what in the hell are you talking about...first of all those lands were already Armenian, Armenians didnt want more land. Second of all, I am pretty sure Armenians had no clue who Circassians were and vice-versa.

Your arguments are becoming more and more ridiculous...

Also, why are you so keen on believing the Circassian Genocide (or should I say "so called"?) than the Armenian Genocide... and a note, you started the discussion of the Armenian Genocide, not me...
 
The worst part about this all is that you actually sadly "believe" what your writing.
 
Now, those lands were not Armenian they were Ottoman and the lands occupied by Russia were Rusian.
 
Its no hidden fact that the Russians wanted to have a foothold in the "warmer seas". The Armenians were a tool for trying to achieve this.
 
The area was majority Muslim and most of the other minorities were anti-Russian except the Armenians who were duped into believing "Greater Armenia" would be founded from the ashes of the Ottoman Empire which was actually just as much the Armenians as it was anyone elses (Ottoman Empire was multi-National and not Nationalist, the Official State Language was Turkish for communication purposes but under the Tanzimat reforms all people were equal under law)
 
When the Russians entered the Caucauses they trained and financed Armenian forces, armed them and fed them with propoganda, just look into the songs these Dashnak forces would sing, they're mostly about slaughtering any Turk they get their hands on, not just Turks but Jews have always been the target of Dashnak forces aswell. (by Turk, any Muslim is meant as Muslims were collectively called Turks in those years)
 
The land which is currently Armenia was created during this period, the area was ethnically cleansed of any Muslims and the Armenian who constituted a minority in the surrounding provinces were gathered to create a majority area, obviously at the expense of hundreds of thousands of mainly innocent people who were kiled and slaughtered.
 
The Armenian and Circassians new each other very, very well. Today there are millions of descendants of Circassians and people of the Caucauses, Chechen, Karacay, Azeri Turk, Daghestani's and so on millions of people fled to the safe-haven area of the Ottoman lands in today's Eastern Turkey.
 
The Ottoman Empire was crumbling, it did not have the resources or men to even attempt to carry out a genocide. A Genocide takes time, resources, planning all things the Ottomans did not have. In 1915 they were fighting in Gallipoli, this was far more important than wasting men hunting down Armenians for the fun of it, please just use your brain and think about it for a minute.
 
However, while fighting in Gallipoli and other wars on the Western front, the Russians and there pawns the Armenian forces sensing their opportunity striked when the Ottomans were at their weakest point to try and take more land. Unfortunately for the Armenians as their first Prime Minister openly admited, the troops were badly disciplined and more interested in looting then fighting. The Ottomans managed to defeat these troops but were too late to stop areas like Erzerum being razed and the population massacred.
 
The people in the war zone were re-located to Ottoman Terrotory in Syria, along the route many were massacred by tribesmen. However, Armenians who were not in the war-zone area were left un-touched.
 
There was no planned-systematic Genocide ordered by the command of the Ottomans. However, both sides suffered many casualties and massacres.
 
It would be wiser for Armenians to accept that there was not a planned-systematic Genocide and instead ask for reconcilliation for the people massacred on either side, both sides can apologise to each other and move forward, you both arn't going anywhere and will have to live with each other and the way things are going Turks are moving forward in the region while Armenians are going backwards.


Edited by Bulldog - 25-Jun-2006 at 11:43
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2006 at 11:31
well said....interpretations of event's years later.... are imo always subject
  to the passions and prejuidces that are carried forward from the time of the actual event...that's assuming there's anyone left alive to carry forward the news....
 
but it's kinda of like combat....and here i dont speak about those who have served in a combat theater alone  because there is a difference.......but those who have been in the forefront of the killing....if you havent been there....then in a very large way....people can't imagine the effect.....
 
and all the generic study and armchairing of platitudes makes no difference to those who have.Wink
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