Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Minorities and Human Rights : GREECE

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>
Author
baracuda View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2005
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 722
  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Minorities and Human Rights : GREECE
    Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 03:38
Turkish Minority : Turks what turks??

How many times do I gotta tell you!! there are no minorities in Greece and here's another court decision to prove it:

January 14 A Greek court Thursday upheld a ban on one of the countrys Turkish minority groups, saying that an association it had formed served the interests of Turkey.

Greeces Supreme Court ruled in favour of maintaining the ban of the Turkish Association of Xanthi, on the grounds of national security, the AFP news agency cited officials as saying.

Greek prosecutors had sought to have the association banned on the grounds that by using the word Turkish in its name it served the interest of a foreign country in the attempt to appear a Turkish minority in Greece.

Xanthi, a town in the north west of Greece, is home to a large number of Turks of Greek nationality who are part of Greeces 100,000 strong Turkish speaking Muslim minority.

The association was first banned in 1984, with the appeals process taking some 20 years. The decision of the Supreme Court cannot be appealed.


The News Link


Macedonian Minority : Irony

If Greece admits there is a Macedonian minority in Greek territory, then Greece would be admitting there is a Macedonia that is not Greek. So, voil! It's been decided that there are no Macedonians in Greece. Well, there are but they're Greek Macedonians. Or Macedonian Greeks. Or something or other...

For Greece, a member state of the EU, the main focus was given to its continuous denial of the recognition of the Macedonian minority at the national, linguistic or social level. Macedonians in Greece still lack basic human rights, such as access to Macedonian language education, freedom of speech, media or cultural expression.

Rainbow pointed out several cases illustrating Greece's violation of EU rules. These included the non-recognition of the Home of Macedonian Culture(Dom za Makedoskata Kultura) despite the rulings of the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR), the closing of the radio station Macedonian Sound, and the cancellation (twice) of EFA-Vinozhitos Congress because of extremist threats, which were not denounced by the Greek state.

In his reply to the criticisms, the Greek representative, Mr Moshopoulos, stated that Greece is a democratic country with a full respect for human rights and international rules. He also added that Greece's permanent position on the, in his terms, so-called Macedonian minority is that they do not exist, while the Muslim west Thracian minorities, comprising Turks, Pomaks and Roma, enjoy a high standard of living and absolute freedom.

However, he did not explain why Greece faces rulings from ECHR for human rights violations or why governmental and non-governmental international organizations such as the European Commission against Racism or Intolerance (ECRI), International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights (IHF) and Minority Rights Group International (MRGI) have again officially requested recognition of the Macedonian minority.



Back to Top
iskenderani View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 24-Mar-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 449
  Quote iskenderani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 04:35

Baracuda....

Being in NATO , as a strategist , i would expected that u be more serious...I have started having strong doubts... ( maybe ur strategic duties are confined to bring coffee ??? I would hate to assume so...)

So go and read AGAIN the Lausanne Treaty and you MAY learn , that in Thrace ( the Greek territory of course ) there are NOT racial minorities only RELIGIOUS minorities...As a result of this , ANYONE forming an assosiation expressing and serving RACIAL and National interests of a foreign country , according to Greek LAW ...is illegal....Got it ???

Now ... As for the joke of Makendonskies...u know to read English , so read...a post by Phallnx...

### Let's see what scholars and accurate sources say, not what I or you would like to belive: This will be a long one.

European ethnographs and linguists until the Congress of Berlin usually regarded the language of the Slavic population of Macedonia as Bulgarian. French scholars A. Boue in 1840 and G. Lejean in 1861, Germans A. Griesebach in 1841, J. Hahn in 1858 and 1863, A. Petermann in 1869 and H. Kiepert in 1876, Slovak Safarik in 1842 and the Czechs J. Erben in 1868 and F. Brodaska in 1869, Englishmen Wyld in 1877 and G. M. Mackenzie and A.P. Irby in 1863, Serbians Davidovitch in 1848, Desjardins in 1853 and S. Verkovic in 1860, Russians V. Grigorovich in 1848, V. Makushev and M.F. Mirkovitch in 1867, as well as Austrian K. Sax in 1878 published ethnography or linguistic books, or travel notes, which defined the Slavic population of Macedonia as Bulgarian.

Austrian doctor J. Muller published travel notes in 1844 where he regarded the Slavic population of Macedonia as Serbian.

The region was further identified as predominantly Greek by French F. Bianconi in 1877 and by Englishman E. Stanford in 1877. Stanford maintained that the urban population of Macedonia was entirely Greek, whereas the peasantry was of mixed, Bulgarian-Greek origin and had Greek consciousness but had not yet mastered the Greek language.

The propaganda

Spiridon Gopcevic (also known as Leo Brenner) published in 1889 the ethnographic research Macedonia and Old Serbia, which defined more than three-quarters of the Macedonian population as Serbian. The population of Kosovo and northern Albania was identified as Serbian or Albanian of Serbian origin and the Greeks along the Aliakmon as Greeks of Serbian origin.

The work of Gopcevic was further developed by two Serbian scholars, geographer Jovan Cvijic and linguist Aleksandar Belic . Less extreme than Gopcevic, Cvijic and Belic claimed only the Slavs of northern Macedonia were Serbian whereas those of southern Macedonia were identified as "Macedonian Slavs", an amorphous Slavic mass that was neither Bulgarian, nor Serbian but could turn out either Bulgarian or Serbian if the respective people were to rule the region. The only Slavs in Macedonia which were referred to as Bulgarian were those living along the Strymon and Nestos rivers, i.e. present-day Pirin Macedonia and parts of northeastern Greece. Cviic further argued that the name Bugari (Bulgarians) used by the Slavic population of Macedonia to refer to themselves actually meant only rayah peasant Christians and in no case affiliations to the Bulgarian ethnicity.

The Serbian propaganda effort in Macedonia was led chiefly on the educational front. The number of Serbian schools in Macedonia and Kosovo rose from only a handful of before 1878 to 178 with 321 teachers and 7,200 pupils at the turn of the 20th century. The Society of Saint Sava in Belgrade gave study scholarships to talented Macedonians, usually turning them into staunch supporters of the Serbian cause after the end of their education. Serbia was also successful in launching armed guerilla groups, mainly in northern Macedonia, which clashed with pro-Bulgarian IMRO. Despite the enormous financial support from Serbia the Serbian cause in Macedonia never made a significant success outside the northern districts of Tetovo, Skopje and Kumanovo where the local dialect had certain similarities with Serbian.

Statistical data

The 1911 edition of the Encylopaedia Britannica gave the following statistical estimates about the population of Macedonia:

    * Bulgarians (described in encyclopaedia as "Slavs, the bulk of which is regarded by almost all independent sources as Bulgarians", a statement referring to the controversy between Bulgaria and Serbia as to the national affinities of the Slavs of Macedonia): ca. 1,150,000, whereof, 1,000,000 Orthodox and 150,000 Muslims (the so-called Pomaks)
    * Turks: ca. 500,000 (Muslims)
    * Greeks: ca. 250,000, whereof ca. 240,000 Orthodox and 14,000 Muslims
    * Albanians: ca. 120,000, whereof 10,000 Orthodox and 110,000 Muslims
    * Vlachs: ca. 90,000 Orthodox and 3,000 Muslims
    * Jews: ca. 75,000
    * Roma: ca. 50,000, whereof 35,000 Orthodox and 15,000 Muslims

In total 1,300,000 Christians (almost exclusively Orthodox), 800,000 Muslims, 75,000 Jews, a total population of ca. 2,200,000 for the whole of Macedonia.

It needs to be taken into account that a substantial part of the Bulgarian population in southern Macedonia regarded itself as Greek and a smaller percentage, mostly in northern Macedonia, as Serbian. All Muslims (except the Albanians) tended to view themselves and were viewed as Turks, irrespective of their mother tongue. Most Vlachs and orthodox Albanians regarded themselves as Greeks. ###

So , Baracuda...... IF u think that this organisation "Rainbow"... knows MORE , than all these proffesors ..... then u have a serious problem...

Isk..



Edited by iskenderani
Back to Top
baracuda View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2005
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 722
  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 04:44
Talk is cheap isk.. nice data, Im not doing propaganda nor am I claiming anything as you are doing in your reply,

You see above the things I posted are Greek courts' rulings and the rule'ings of ECHR for greek human rights violations on the subject. (plus the application of various governmental and non-governmental organizations for greek violation of human rights..) and thats all.. no politcs..

"Oh..and about the Lousanne treaty, I will answer your post, just didnt have the time yet to do so"
Back to Top
iskenderani View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 24-Mar-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 449
  Quote iskenderani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 05:31

Buddy , u can say what u like best...cheap ...not cheap ... expensive...whatever....

But ...whatever label u will put they will stay what they are...FACTS..

So keep banging ur head in the wall..... U got all the explanations u wanted...Its up to u , to stop doing it.

Isk..

P.S....there are more proof , u know...From ur Turkish authorities...who ruled the area... Like some censuses...made by Turks..

Isk..

Back to Top
Yiannis View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2329
  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 05:38

Greece recognizes that Greek citizens of Slav ancestry exist in Greece. If they want to start a club, they can do so but it cannot be called "Macedonian" since Macedonians are Greeks. They can be called "Slavic" if they like.

"Rainbow" party (Vinozhitos or whatever...)is the official party of the Slavomacedonians in Greece. It has official status, it is funded economically by the Greek state and participates in Greek and European Parliament elections. It usually receives 4-5,000 votes Greece-wise, so that must tell you how much it should be taken seriously. Slavomacedonians claim that there're hundreds of thousands in Greece but they only get 4,000 votes in their elections. So much for minorities...

The Muslim minority in Thrace wan have their own activities, education, clubs, newpapers, TV/radio stations etc. They're not recognized as Turkish because the lausanne treaty says so and because they're a mix of Turks, Pomacks (Bulgarian speaking Muslims) and Gypsies.

So, no Greece does not have a perfect record on Human Rights, but it's heaven compared to each and every country in the region and on par with EU regulations.



Edited by Yiannis
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
Back to Top
baracuda View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2005
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 722
  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 06:21
Originally posted by Yannis

"Greece recognizes that Greek citizens of Slav ancestry exist in Greece. If they want to start a club, they can do so but it cannot be called "Macedonian" since Macedonians are Greeks. They can be called "Slavic" if they like."


- Each nation recognises its own view on a subject, so you can read the view that I posted in the begining.. and then continue on to isk..'s post on who recognises "macedonians" as what.. Bulgarian,Slav,Greek or Macedonian so there are 4 views.. for crude argument sake, lets say they all have equal claims and conditions, propaganda and so on...

Gives us a 25% chance that these people are Macedonian, macedonians. so lets add the non-greek "Macedonians", we get a more chance of these people being not greek or slav.. in some crude way.. (which in a way would prove points of people who dont see Macedonians as greek..) and a similar sense one can calculate the amount of people that dont consider themselves of slavic origin.. and you still have left people who would rather call themselves 'Macedonian' regardless of what other people think, right or wrong... and there is a possibility although small.. that they are actually right if one considers the amount of times history has been altered due some political cause..

"The Muslim minority in Thrace wan have their own activities, education, clubs, newpapers, TV/radio stations etc. They're not recognized as Turkish because the lausanne treaty says so and because they're a mix of Turks, Pomacks (Bulgarian speaking Muslims) and Gypsies."


I am reading the lausanne treaty, and treaties regarding minorities and population exchange between greece and turkey when I've read them fully I will post here.. and the other post I have on a similar subject, so for now "I dont know about this subject"

So, no Greece does not have a perfect record on Human Rights, but it's heaven compared to each and every country in the region and on par with EU regulations.


A little political question, I belive that this wasnt even an issue in Greece joining the European union.. or am I wrong?

Edited by baracuda
Back to Top
Yiannis View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2329
  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 06:40

Originally posted by baracuda

I am reading the lausanne treaty, and treaties regarding minorities and population exchange between greece and turkey when I've read them fully I will post here.. and the other post I have on a similar subject, so for now "I dont know about this subject"

Excelent, when you're done reading please tell us what does it say about the Greek minority in Istanbul and Imbros/Tenedos. After that please inform us on the current status of the Greek minority in these "protected" areas.

A little political question, I belive that this wasnt even an issue in Greece joining the European union.. or am I wrong?

No it wasn't an issue because there was no issue to begin with.

The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
Back to Top
baracuda View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2005
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 722
  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 08:35
'Yannis' - I don't need to read Lousanne treaty to tell you why of the minorities in those islands.. the answer comes around full circle to say it was because of what began happening in Cyprus at that time. 1964.. I dont approve of what was done.. but war does have its consequences..the population wasnt massacred or anything, they were forced or chose to migrate. Anyway here is a link in greek for you to read, you can see the population count at various dates.. and how and why the population left, and the turkish population rose to the numbers that there are today.

The link on Imbrios


As it comes to laussane and other treaties, I will state every single greek missuse, violation in them showing clear examples from either greek or west sources, Im interested myself.. so it'll be interesting.. 'if' there are any, then we can poll the weight of these violations in some simple sense..

   And after all that maybe there might be some chance to forget about the argueing and bending of history, on both sides.


A little political question, I belive that this wasnt even an issue in Greece joining the European union.. or am I wrong?     

No it wasn't an issue because there was no issue to begin with


I asked beacause " an issue is made, when there are politics involved.." in general.. meaning to say that everyone was with Greece..no matter the situations of 'minorities' in the north of your country at the time of entrance to the EU..

Anyway the post is about the minorities in greece.. and I'll post some more articles on some more like the Albanians,Wallachians,Gypsies,Jews.. in Greece.


Edited by baracuda
Back to Top
Phallanx View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 07-Feb-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1283
  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 11:04

Interesting for a Turkish site
I really would like to know if the Turkish version of this text gives the exact same info it does in Hellinic.

As for the reasons, I suggest you look up the 'Varlik Vergisi Law' that is one of them.

Just out of coincidence I'm watching right now as I post, an interview of a priest of the islands of Imvros and Tenedos on TRT (Thessly Radio Television)
He mentions that they are not allowed to preform any kind of restoration on the existing churches or tombs, it is forbidden, he notes that just to paint the church they had to wait 19 months for permission.
He said that in Tenedos the total Hellinic population is 25 people 3 of them are children that are forced to go to Turkish schools.
In their town, even though there are no Turks, not even one, the town was recently filled with speakers so they would hear the hodja.


The difference here is that we may not acknowledge them as a ethnic minority (as you'd like) simply because these people have been assimilated into the Hellinic society, having total freedom and the exact same rights as any other Hellinic citizen. Thus they do not form a minority.
Do you speak of a Turkish minority in Germany or the US??
No simply because they have been assimilated, like it or not they are part of the Geman and US population/society.

While on the other hand, we speak of minorities in Turkey simply because that is what they are. Minorities, oppressed by an inhuman goverment and outdated minds. No freedom of religion, no freedom of speech, no right to be represented in Parliament........


Edited by Phallanx
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
Back to Top
baracuda View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2005
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 722
  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 12:23

"phallanx" , the english and the turkish versions are the same, my greek isnt perfect but good enough,so yes its also the same. I also found it interesting thats why I posted it..

"Property tax" well I belive we all pay that here, as for TV, its sad, I would rather the original habitants of such islands be there, maybe someday when politics have no more arguments..I saw a few series similar to the one you describe for turks, or muslims in nothern greece, so thats the reason of this post to know more about such peoples living in greece, well lets call them groups..

On Turkey, I disagree, citizens are assimilated into society and accept themselves as turks, nothing more as any other place on the globe, the ones that are limited or pushed into minority are the ones that see any kind of support from other governments.. they're dangerous due to the fact of location.. and history. The same goes to just about any country in the world.. If say I were to finance some group of people in greece.. Im pretty sure anything concerning them would be hushed and their rights taken away...in some way or the other, so similarly to Greeks, Turks don't accept such groups of people within the society as 'minorities'   


Edited by baracuda
Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Spammer

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8596
  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 13:10

Phallanx says "While on the other hand, we speak of minorities in Turkey simply because that is what they are. Minorities, oppressed by an inhuman goverment and outdated minds. No freedom of religion, no freedom of speech, no right to be represented in Parliament........"

 

I know many Turkish Christians that are of Armenian and Greek ancestory.  Many of them live in my in-laws building in Istanbul and around their block. Now according to you they are oppressed, by Turkey's inhuman and outdated mind. Yet when I visited the church they go to they did not tell me about such oppression in Turkey. They even invited me to their nice villas on the Princess Islands.  Like most Greeks and Armenians I know from Turkey is that they love their country. Also what they did tell me about pertains to another country's form of persecution though. They told me that when they go to America they are pressured by their own co-religionists to stick up for the Greek and Armenian slanderous propaganda against Turkey and the Turks.  

So try to get more of your information straight than total reliance on a few internet pages that only fosters your already wrong opinions. Sit down with your buddy Isk and get him to study with you.  



Edited by Seko
Back to Top
Phallanx View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 07-Feb-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1283
  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 13:15
You know that this wasn't just a common property tax. Actually the Hellines of Anatolia even though only 0.5% of the total population covered approx. 20% of the national income from this tax.
(not really 'fair' treatment)

In Turkey such citizen 'groups' are enforced to be assimilated, you either convert or perish. The accounts on the Imvros, Tenedos, Pergamus, Constantinoupoli minorities are literally hundreds.
Assimilation and equal rights would mean rights to property, media, school, representation in Parliament.
You know it as a fact, that the Kurds, the minority that reaches some 15-20 million, only just recently had their language recognized, freedom of media........
Are you trying to tell me that this maltreatment, was because they were allegedly funded and not due to the attempts of ethnic cleansing??
 If so, funded by whom and for what cause???
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
Back to Top
Phallanx View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 07-Feb-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1283
  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 13:34
Seko

Man you're deluted, you don't know sh*t about me and yet dare to judge my souce of info, as if you know when I've been, am or came from
.
If they are respected, why isn't the school of Chalki re-opened, why do you desecrate Agia Sophia and Agia Eirine???
Why continuously open some alleged exhibitions in these two temples of their faith and have your (what's their name, with the tall hats and looong dress that dance in circles) dance on the face of Christ and ONLY bikini and lingerie fashion shows in those temples.
As if there is no other place to do these.

Why not tell us, oh great one. Why is there a need of permission to preform any religious ceremony including burial and marriage.
Nah, persecution, just a dream of mine.

Since internet is my source and friend:

Patriarch Bartholomew 08-Mar-2005 :

As everybody knows the church of the Presentation of the Madonna was also struck in the barbarous attack on the British Consulate in Istanbul a year ago, suffering significant damage which has made it unusable. But today we find ourselves victims not only of the terrorists, but also of the authorities of this country, because of the unjustifiable delay in granting the permit necessary for the churchs reconstruction.

We have asked neither for compensation nor for privileged treatment. We have only asked, and we demand it in full legality as peaceful citizens of this country, a country that wants to be received into the EU, what is a right for all of its citizens.

Thus on 21 November, the Feast of the Presentation of Mary in the Temple, Bartholomew I, Ecumenic Patriarch of Constantinople, addressed his faithful. The news was reported by Sandro Magister on the online news items of LEspresso, which, afterwards, referred other points of disagreement between the Orthodox community and the government: At the beginning of December, without any plausible explanation, the Turkish authorities forbade the Greek Orthodox bishop of Miron from celebrating mass, as is done every year on 6 December, in the ruins of the venerated church of Saint Nicholas Miron, in Asia Minor. Further, in those same days, the Turkish supreme court denied the Patriarchate the ownership to an orphanage on the Islands of Princes, after having already imposed a veto, two months earlier, on the restitution to the same Patriarchate of the theological seminary of Halki, confiscated and closed more than thirty years ago: the restitution vainly promised, last Spring, by Prime Minister Erdogan.

Now Seko, you may literally sit on Turkish TERROR, while I have a beer with my bud Isk.
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
Back to Top
baracuda View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2005
Location: Russian Federation
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 722
  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 14:06
Right, whatever phallanx just argue in the tavern or someplace.. this post is about minorities and human rights in greece, and not about turkey, nor your fantasies about Seko..
Back to Top
Murtaza View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 03-Jun-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 804
  Quote Murtaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 14:09

LOL his fantasies are not about seko but isk I think

Now Seko, you may literally sit on Turkish TERROR, while I have a beer with my bud Isk.

Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Spammer

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8596
  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 15:26

Maybe they are studying?

Phallanx I know enough about how and what you write. That is enough for me to respond to you about the information you present.

The Agia Sophia has been Turkish for centuries. It is not your right to tell the Turks what to do with their property. It was once a church, a mosque and then a museum. Oa'!

Back to Top
Alexander of Macedon View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 29-Apr-2005
Location: Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 27
  Quote Alexander of Macedon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 21:25

Back to Top
Alexander of Macedon View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 29-Apr-2005
Location: Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 27
  Quote Alexander of Macedon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 21:33
Back to Top
strategos View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 09-Mar-2005
Location: Denmark
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1096
  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 21:41
Funny how theres a huge FYROMian minority, a million your sights claim, yet only around 7-8,000 vote for there political party. Shows the truth of how many slavomakedonians there are actually in Hellas.
http://theforgotten.org/intro.html
Back to Top
Phallanx View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 07-Feb-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1283
  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 21:58
Wanna-be Macedonija I've told you once before.
Don't provoke with the ILLEGAL flag, use your own.
Don't provoke with that STUPID map
Holly sh*t,  man get a damn life!!!!

Finally learn who is behind the alleged objective source you quote titled GreekHelsinki.

You're trully pathetic


Oh, great one, please enlighten us (Seko this means YOU)
So you managed to turn a religious temple into a museum (that suits you)
OK. Do you reject the FACT that it represents a religion (like it or not) and if so, why do you continuously desecrate its symbols and meaning to those that believe in it, either you accept it or not. Who gives you any kind of right to desecrate it???
Allah??

Is that what your religion taught you?? To desecrate all sybols, beliefs and religions in your path???
Man, if that is what you believe in, you're way more pathetic than I ever imagined.

You said it's yours for centuries. Correct did anyone ask or demand that you return it???
NO!!!!
All we DEMAND is respect, if it is a museum as you say, why are the artifacts rotting in the basements, why are those that demand resoration fired, why don't you respect this alleged museum, is it because it represents the  'Giour' religion,  is it because you are nothing more than a secular, military ruled, anachronistic nation????

WHY????

To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.172 seconds.