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Egyptian Chronology

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Egyptian Chronology
    Posted: 17-Jan-2019 at 04:15

Despite many evidences of stark horizontal synchronisms supported by some vertical chronological dating evidences the establishment still refuse to change the dates of the ancient Egyptian dynasties and their dating scheme still reigns in the mainstream world.
As far as i can tell they refuse to accept horizontal matches unless one can provide proof-acceptable-to-them of vertical dates of the dynasties. Their own dating attempts/assertions generally seem to mainly rely on "scientific" dating methods (eg carbon dating, astronomical alignments) and they refuse to admit that these methods have some proven problems and are not reliable and not so "scientific" as claimed. Regnal years seems to be another major backbone of their Egyptian and Assyrian chronology, but again there are problems with adding up many kings and dynasties regnal years because the kings often have differing totals in different sources (eg see Khufu in the list below), and there can be co-regencies, etc. They unfairly reject any sources that they deem to be "unreliable" such as the bible, Herodotus, etc without actually proving that the actual details are unreliable.
This thread is an attempt to find acceptable vertical chronological proof of dynasties dates. (The intention is separate threads on Egyptian chronology, Mesopotamian chronology, Biblical chronology, etc). We have already posted many other posts on horizontal matches elsewhere.

(People may find it helpful to refer to these basic reference articles:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_chronology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_the_ancient_Near_East
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_the_Bible .)

Below is a list of most/many but not all of the dating evidences for all the dynasties from the 1st to the last.

Prehistoric:
Egyptian wheat found in Lake Dwellings (built on dried-up lake shores) (Western neolithic). (Danubian culture had a 7 yrs agricultural rotation cycle.)

Predynastic period:
Synchronisum of Merimde with Western neolithic.
Synchronism of Semainian with Uruk/Jemdet Nasr period.

1st dynasty
The orthodox date of 1st dynasty was revised "400 years closer to present" from 3400 to 3100 bc a few decades ago due to some dynasties (the 9th-11th (& the 22nd-26th)) being found to be contemporary or overlapping (though it is said that Egyptological consensus is still only possible within a 300-400 years range, with the 1st dynasty still considered to be either 3400s/3300s or 3100s/3000s/2900s bc).
It is said that the low/short school orthodox Egyptological dates for the EDP &/or Old Kingdom may still be out by 300 to 400 years.

Era of Menophres 1605 years before "Diocletian" might be from Menes/Menoph/Manouph or Memphis.
Tacitus said that there had been only 4 Phoenixes in Egyptian bc history (a phoenix life was 500 yrs in Tacitus). (1 crow was 400 yrs. 4 crows would be 1600 yrs.)
"1663 years the Egyptian state lasted for before Cambyses (525 bc)".
1st god Pan of the 1st dynasty of 8 gods was 29220 yrs before Amasis 2 in Herodotus (corresponding with Dionysos 1600 yrs or Pan 800 yrs before Amasis 2 in Herodotus) matches 1st king Menes.
"the war occured in the 363rd year of era of Menes"; "the same event occured in the year 363 of the kingdom" (Palermo Stone).

There are "700/949/955 years" from the 1st dynasty to the 8th dynasty or 13th dynasty in the Turin Papyrus and the Book of Sothis. (1st-8th dynasties are Memphite.)
The 1st god-king Ptah reigned 900(0) or 742 years. (Ptah associated with Memphis, and with dyking, matches 1st king Menes associated with Memphis and with dyking, and matches the 1st-8th Memphite dynasties.)

King lists apparently have 261/256 years for the 1st/2nd dynasties?
1st dyn 261 yrs (Turin papyrus).
Menes 30/60/62 yrs reign (Manetho).
1-2 dyns 517 yrs (Turin papyrus).
# kings 00/0/1st to 5th dyn, 2 sides, 7 fragments (Palermo Stone).
6 kings of 1st dyn (to 6th?) in Den Seals kinglist.
38 kings 1st to 6th to ? dyn 1076 yrs (Eratosthenes).
1-8 dyns 949/955 yrs (and/incl 6 kingless yrs) (Turin papyrus).
1-11 dyn 2038/2300/2293/2278/2313/2303/2283 yrs (Manetho/Africanus)
1-11 dyn 1842/1848 yrs (Manetho/Eusebius).
65/72/76 kings 1st to 12th/19th dyn, in 2/3 rows of 38 kings, omits FIP/SIP & Amarna heretic kings (Abydos kinglist).
39/61 kings 1st/3rd to 18th dyn, 30 ks of 13th dyn, 3 rows/sections (Karnak king list).
47/58 kings 1st to 19th dyn, MK in "reverse" order, omits SIP/Hyksos & Amarna herectic kings (Saqqara kinglist).
over 300 kings 1st to 19th dyn, in 11 columns, in 160 fragments (Turin papyrus).
1-19 dyn 3809/3723 yrs (Manetho/Eusebius).
1-19 dyn 4551/4424/4429/4501/4516 yrs (Manetho/Africanus).
Menes (1)1340 yrs before Seti of 19th dyn (Herodotus).
Menes 1300/1399 yrs before Shishak, giving a date of not earlier than 2300/2399 bc (Josephus).
Min (1st dyn) to 26 dyn 11340/1340 yrs (Herodotus).
1-26 dyn 5151.5 yrs (Manetho/Africanus).
1-26 dyn 4383/4384 yrs = 3 sothic cycles (Manetho/Eusebius).
3/41/300/330/341 kings 1st to 28th dyn, (1)1340 yrs, 18 Ethiopians, 2/4 x sun reversed (Herodotus).
1-30 dyn 30437 yrs (Manetho/Africanus).
1-30 dyn 30437 yrs = 20 cycles of 1521 (Manetho/Eusebius).
# kings from gods/1st to 30/31/32/33 dyns (Manetho).
divine dyns & 1-30 dyns 36525 yrs = 25 sothic cycles (Manetho/Africanus/Eusebius/Syncellus).
1-30/31 dyn 2324 yrs (Manetho/Africanus/Eusebius/Syncellus).
1-31 dyn 4611/4565/4651 yrs (Manetho/Eusebius).
1-31 5601/5474/5479/5349/5368 yrs (Manetho/Africanus).
Claimed discovery of a Siriadic/Sothaic date in 1st dyn (2018).
A 2013 study found that the 1st dynasty has a supposed carbon dating date of 32nd to 31st century bc. However, carbon dating is proven to be unreliable.
Bull in Narmer palette, & Apis in 1st dynasty indicate Age of Taurus.

2nd dynasty:
King lists apparently have 261/256 years for the 1st/2nd dynasties?
1-2 dyns 517 yrs (Turin papyrus).
2nd dyn 256 yrs (Turin papyrus).
24 gods, 6 kings 2nd to 5th/6th dyn, 28 cities, 3 x 4 groups of 8 gods, 4/12/27/43 columns, 5 chapters (Gaza king list).

3rd dynasty:
39/61 kings 1st/3rd to 18th dyn, 30 ks of 13th dyn, 3 rows/sections (Karnak king list).
3rd dyn lasted 55 or 214/215 yrs in Manetho?
3rd dyn 74 yrs (Turin papyrus).
3rd dyn 55/215 yrs.
7 yrs famine/drought of Djoser/Zoser (Sahel/Philae).
Djoser 19 or 28 yrs.
Sesor-tosis 2500 yrs before Nilus who was 436 yrs before 1st Olympiad (776 bc), giving date of 1212 fo Nilus and 3712 fo Sesortosis (Apollonius Rhodius).
Surid 300 yrs before "flood" (Masoudi).
24/22 architects 3rd/21st-27th/31st dyn.
Material in Sekhemkhet pyramid complex has carbon date 600 yrs older than his orthodox Egyptological date.
Waddell said that Old Kingdom tombs are similar to Ur 0/1 dynasty tombs/graves implying a synchronism.
3rd/4th dyn & Lagash both had similar contacts with Byblos (cedar)?

4th dynasty:
Sphinx rain marks supposedly imply a geological date of ... (Schoch).
"The boat of Khufu dates 200 years before the Egyptological date of pyramids built." (Carbon dating is "true with a variance of plus/minus 200 years". "Carbon-14 dating has a margin of error of 100 years".)
"Kate Spence's astronomical work says Khufu's pyramid should be dated 50 years the other way from the historical date … in other words 250 years lower than the radiocarbon date."
4th dyn pyramid builders prophesied to last for 150 yrs (Herodotus).
King-lists apparently have 448/409 years for 4th/9th dynasties.
4 dyn 123 yrs (Turin papyrus).
Cheops'/Khufu's reign length ranges in sources from
63 yrs (Manetho) to
50 yrs (Herodotus) to
"46 yrs" (one modern orthodox cattle-count theory?) to
34 yrs (Great Pyramid inscription taken as biennial cattle-count) to
26/27 yrs (Dakhla inscription taken as bienniel cattle-count) to
24/23 yrs (Turin King List) to
20 yrs (building pyr Herodotus) to
17 yrs (Great Pyramid inscription taken verbatim) to
14 yrs (Dakhla inscription taken verbatim) to
10 yrs (building pyr ramp Herodotus).
Only the 2 verbatim inscriptions are reliable contemporary records, while the others are from less reliable much later sources or modern theories. The 17 years one is confirmed by the match with the biblical Jacob living for 17 yrs in Egypt.
Menkaure's reign length ranges from 63 yrs (Manetho) to 44 yrs (Herodotus) to 28 yrs (orthodox Egyptology) 12 (more/remaining) yrs (Herodotus) to 7/6 (more/remaining) yrs (Herodotus).
110 yr older Djedi in Khufu's reign.
Sayce said that a statue from Lagash (?1st or 2nd?) dynasty is very similar to an Egyptian 4th dynasty statue, and that the cubit measurement in it is also the same as that of the pyramid builders of the 4th-6th dynasty of Egypt.

5th dynasty.
Sahure in Canaan/Palestine & Dorak treasure?
Unas famine scenes (beside pyramid complexes of Djoser & Sekhemkhet).
5th dyn 140 yrs (Turin papyrus).
# kings 00/0/1st to 5th dyn, 2 sides, 7 fragments (Palermo Stone).
24 gods, 6 kings 2nd to 5th/6th dyn, 28 cities, 3 x 4 groups of 8 gods, 4/12/27/43 columns, 5 chapters (Gaza king list).

6th dynasty:
There is the known archaeological synchronism of Akkadian dynasty/period with the 6th dynasty via Ebla. Though it is admitted that the date is not definite because the Ebla info might be earlier than the Akkadian conquest.  One possible piece of infomration that might possibly either support or alter the "6th" dynasty correspondence is this:
Sayce said that a statue from Lagash (?1st or 2nd?) dynasty is very similar to an Egyptian 4th dynasty statue, and that the cubit measurement in it is also the same as that of the pyramid builders of the 4th-6th dynasty of Egypt.
If this is Lagash 1 dynasty then it may agree with Akkad being after 4th-6th dynasty; but if it is Lagash 2 dynasty then it might mean that Akkadian dynasty was before the 4th-6th dynasty?
"6 dynasties of gods totalled 11985 / 1183.5 years, while the 9 dynasties with demigods came to 858 years."
6 kings of 1st dyn (to 6th?) (Den Seals).
5 kings of (all preceeding to) 6th dyn in South Saqqara kinglist.
6 kings of 1st dyn (to 6th?) (Den Seals).
38 kings 1st to 6th to ? dyn 1076 yrs (Eratosthenes).
6th dyn 181 yrs (Turin papyrus).
Pepi 2's reign uncertain whether 64 or 94 years.
Userkare 1-5 yrs reign.
6 kingless years in the 6th or 8th dyn.
The Era of Menophres 1605 years before Diocletian, giving a date of 1485 bc or 1322 bc might relate to Memphis (Pepi, who may match Moses)?

7th dynasty
70 kings for 70 days.
7 dyn 70 yr (Manetho/Africanus).
7 dyn 75 yr (Manetho/Eusebius).
"The 7th & 8th dyns ruled for approximately 20-45 yrs." "After 20-45 yrs they (7th & 8th dyns) were overthrown".

8th dynasty
In the Turin Papyrus king list & the Book of Sothis there are "700/949/955 years" (and/including 6 kingless yrs) from the 1st dynasty to the 8th or 13th dynasty (1st-8th dynasties are Memphite). (700 year itch? Compare 9000/742 yrs reign of Ptah.)
"8 demigods / 217 years before 15 generations / 443 years" of [Syncellus?]
6 kingless years in 6th &/or 8th dyn.
"The 7th & 8th dyns ruled for approximately 20-45 yrs." "After 20-45 yrs they (7th & 8th dyns) were overthrown".
8 dyn 140 yrs (Turin papyrus)
8 dyn 100 yr (Manetho/Eusebius)
8 dyn 146 yr (Manetho/Africanus)
Orthodox sources admit that the 2IP/SIP is a lacuna of uncertain length.

9th dynasty:
King-lists apparently have 448/409 years for 4th/9th dynasties.
9 dyn 409 yr (Manetho/Africanus).
9 dyn 100/409 yrs (Eusebius/Africanus).
9 dyn 100 yr (Manetho/Eusebius).
The 9th-11th dynasties are agreed/considered to be contemporary or overlapping in orthodox Egyptology.

10th dynasty:
10th dyn 185/204 yrs (Manetho/Eusebius/Africanus).
The 9th-11th dynasties are agreed/considered to be contemporary or overlapping in orthodox Egyptology.

11th dynasty:
1-11 dyns 2038/2300/2293/2278/2313/2303/2283 yrs (Manetho/Africanus).
1-11 dyn 1842/1848 yrs (Manetho/Eusebius).
The 9th-11th dynasties are agreed/considered to be contemporary or overlapping in orthodox Egyptology.
11th dyn 43 or 143 (100 + 43) yrs (Manetho, Turin papyrus?)
"7 empty years" between end 11th to beginning 12th dyn [Mentuhotep?]

12th dynasty
Sothaic/Siriadic dating of "1873" bc for Senusert 2/3. (There are 320-348 years between sothaic dates of Sesostris 3 and Amenhotep 1.) "More recent research has eroded this confidence, questioning many of the assumptions used with the Sothic Cycle, and as a result experts have moved away from relying on this Cycle."
Coffin of Ipi-ha-ishutef has a supposed combined tree rings & carbon date of 2073 +/- 9 bc.
Funerary boat of Senusret 3 has a supposed combined tree rings & carbon date of 1887 +/- 11 bc. However, carbon dating is proven unreliable and disputed (eg Sekhemhet, Thera/Santorini, etc).
The blue kneeling figure in the pectoral of princess Sit-hathor-yunet is supposed to be Heh with tadpole symbol for tens of thousands of years.
65/72/76 kings 1st to 12th/19th dyn, in 2/3 rows of 38 kings, omits FIP/SIP & Amarna heretic kings (Abydos kinglist).
12th dyn 212/213 yrs (Turin papyrus).
"12 yrs flood/famine Amenemhet 3, 12th dyn" (Rohl, Alford).
Sesortosis/Sesonchosis 2500 yrs before Nilus (1212) 436 yrs before the 1st Olympiad (776) might be Sesostris 250 yrs before 1212?
12-19 dyn 2121/2222/2213/2238/2218/2243 yrs (Manetho/Africanus)
12-19 dyn 1967/1881/1879/1944/1942 yrs (Manetho/Eusebius)
Moeris (12th dyn) was only 900 years before Amasis 2 of the 26th dynasty (Herodotus).
Hercules of the 2nd dynasty of 12 gods was 17000 or 900 yrs before Amasis 2 (Herodotus), matching Sesostris of the 12th dynasty.
Execration texts mention Shechem & Jerusalem.
Synchronism of Middle Kingdom with Mari (Childe).

13th dynasty
Synchronism of Neferhotep with Yantinu of Byblos, Zimrilim of Mari, and Hammurabi of the 1st Babylonian dynasty.
Kinglists apparently have 453 &/or 484 years for dynasties 13 &/or 14.
13th dyn lasted 153/154 yrs (Manetho).
13th dyn 453 (Manetho/Africanus/Eusebius).
Sedjefkare ruled for 3 or 5 or 7 yrs.
"700/949/955 years" from the 1st dynasty to the 13th dynasty (Concharis) in the Book of Sothis?
39/61 kings 1st/3rd to 18th dyn, 30 ks of 13th dyn, 3 rows/sections (Karnak king list).

14th dynasty:
Kinglists apparently have 453 &/or 484 years for dynasties 13 &/or 14.
14 dyn 76 ks 184/484 yr (Manetho/Africanus/Eusebius/Syncellus).

15th dynasty
"8 demigods / 217 years before 15 generations / 443 years" (Manetho/Africanus/Eusebius/Syncellus).
Sais 800(0) years before 26th dyn in the Atlantis Account "of Plato" might match Sailitis/Saites?
Josephus had 511/518 years total for the whole Hyksos period (seemingly from 12th/15th/16th to 19th/20th dynasty)?
400 yrs from Hyksos king to 19th dyn king (San Tablet of 400 yrs, Bey, Massey).
Hyksos driven out 393 years before Danaus (Josephus/Manetho).
350 years reign of god-king Set(h)?
Orthodox Egyptology has 200 years for Hyksos/SIP.
The king lists apparently give (1 or 2 period/s of) 215/221/251 &/or 259/260/261 yrs for the Hyksos (15th &/or 16th) dynasties.
15th Hyksos dyn 259/250 yrs.
15th dyn 250 (Manetho/Eusebius).
Eusebius &/or Turin Papyrus gives 100/103/108 years for Hyksos dynasty (until Danaus).
100(0) years between Moeris/Atlantis/Hercules (900(0)) & Sais/Dionysos (800(0)).
15th dyn 70 yrs (Manetho/Barbarus?)
Khyan ruled for 30-40 yrs.
Sharuhen/Sherohan/”jersualem” (besieged for 3 or 6 yrs by Ahmose 1.
Hyksos king changes length of calendar year.
"Hyksos afraid of Assyrians" (Josephus).
Hyksos scarab at Baghdad.
Hyksos links with Minoan Crete.

16th dynasty:
16 dyn 250/190 yrs (Manetho/Eusebius).
16 dyn 32 ks 511/518/190 yrs.
16 dyn 518/190 yrs (Manetho/Africanus).
16-19 dyn 835 yrs (Manetho/Africanus/Eusebius/Syncellus).
16-30 dyns (Jerome).

17 dynasty:
17 dyn 151 yr (Manetho/Africanus).
17 dyn 151/103/221 yrs.
17 Theban dyn 70 yrs (Manetho/Barbarus).

18th dynasty
39/61 kings 1st/3rd to 18th dyn, 30 ks of 13th dyn, 3 rows/sections (Karnak king list).
18 dyn 170 yrs.
Amasis 1 reigned "25" yrs (Manetho/Africanus).
The 3 years famine/drought/palgue of Amarna period (Amarna letters, Velikovsky, BBC, Lehman) seemingly may match the 3 years famine/drought/plague of David (Bible).
The blind king Anysis who was 700 yrs before Amasis 2 in Herodotus might match either Nehesy (14th dyn) or Iannas (15th/16th dyn) or Ahmose 1 or Akhenaten of the 18th dynasty?
The sequence of Apis bulls from 18th dynasty to 33rd dynasty is used for dating. However there is a gap from the 20th to 22nd dynasty, and "the poor documentation of these finds in the Serapeum also compounds the difficulties in using these records".
Sothaic/Siriadic date of Amenhotep 1, "1551-1524" bc.
The Era of Menophres 1605 years before Diocletian, giving a date of 1485 bc or 1322 bc might relate to Phamenoph/Amenophis or Memnon?
Uluburun shipwreck has supposed tree rings date of ....
Some have attempted to fix the date of the end of the 18th dynasty by relying on synchronicities between Egypt and Assyria (by way of the Hittites), with help from astronomical observations.
King Tut's iron knife.
Amarna letters mention Jerusalem.
Synchronism of Amarna period/letters with Hittite, Mitanni, Middle Assyrian period, and the Kassites at Babylon.

"18th/19th dynasty":
Memnon was at the Trojan war, and survived after it for 5 generations.

19th dynasty:
The orthodox placement of Moses/exodus in 19th dyn ca "1300/1200s" bc is one-two hundreds of years later than the bible's date 480 yrs before Solomon.
The legend of Se-Osiris versus an/the Ethiopian, places the war of enchantments between Horus son of Tnahsit versus the chief magician of the Pharaoh, 500 years prior to the [19th or 21st] dynasty.
(1)340 yrs Menes to Seti (Herodotus), which may match 1300 yrs Menes to Solomon/Shishak (Josephus).
1-19 dyn 4551/4424/4429/4501/4516 yrs (Manetho/Africanus)
1-19 dyn 3809/3723 yrs (Manetho/Eusebius)
65/72/76 kings 1st to 12th/19th dyn, in 2/3 rows of 38 kings, omits FIP/SIP & Amarna heretic kings (Abydos kinglist).
47/58 kings 1st to 19th dyn, MK in "reverse" order, omits SIP/Hyksos & Amarna herectic kings (Saqqara kinglist).
over 300 kings 1st to 19th dyn, in 11 columns, in 160 fragments (Turin papyrus).
12-19 dyn 2121/2222/2213/2238/2218/2243 yrs (Manetho/Africanus)
12-19 dyn 1967/1881/1879/1944/1942 yrs (Manetho/Eusebius)
400 years from Hyksos king to 19th dynasty king (San Tablet), which may be analogous to 480 years Moses to Solomon (bible).
16-19 dyns 835 yrs (Manetho/Africanus/Eusebius/Syncellus)
Era of Menophres 1605 years before Diocletian, gives date of 1485 bc or 1322 bc (165 yrs difference) was supposed to relate to Menpehtyre but we see this as very doubtful.
Stars & constellations on ceiling of tomb of Seti 1 used in calendar calculations.
Earliest known mention of Libya.
Merneptah Stele mentions Israel?
Sinai under "Edom" not Egypt at this time (McEvedy).
Ramses vs Hittites at Kadesh synchronism.

19th-20th dynasties:
13 fatal years between 19th-20th dynasties (Osarsiph story, Manetho/Josephus).
Interregnum 178 yrs (Manetho/Africanus/Eusebius/Syncellus).

20th dynasty:
One of the early bases for date of 20th dynasty was astronomical/stars info/calculations. However, astronomical is not necessarily reliable due to attested changes in earth & heavenly bodies.
Sequence of Apis Bulls 18th dyn to 20th dyns & 22nd to 33rd dyns (gap in Apis bulls sequence between 20th and 22nd dynasties).
Ramses 3's reign was between 3 and 10 yrs long.
20 dyn 135 yr (Manetho/Africanus)
20 dyn 178 yr (Manetho/Eusebius)
Manetho/Africanus/Eusebius has 575 yrs for 20th to 26th dynasties.
868 years (or 1046 yrs) for dyns 20-30.
20-31 dyns 1050/868/848/864/852 yrs (Manetho/Africanus)
20-31 dyns 802 (575 + 227) / 804/837/842 yrs (Manetho/Eusebius)
Peleset Sea Peoples synchronism.

21st dynasty:
The legend of Se-Osiris versus an/the Ethiopian, places the war of enchantments between Horus son of Tnahsit versus the chief magician of the Pharaoh, 500 years prior to the [19th or 21st] dynasty.
24/22 architects 3rd/21st-27th/31st dyn.
Peter James thought that the 21st & 22nd dyns were contemporary?
Psusennes 1 reigned for 40 to 51 yrs.
Herihor/Wenamun & Zekarbaal synchronism (Yeharbaal of Byblos &/or Zakir of Hamath?)

22nd dynasty:
Sheshonk's campaign list doesn't match the biblical Shishak's but might match So's. (Also problem of the -n- in Sheshonk not in Shishak/Susakim. The biblical name of king Zerah can not match Osorkhon. Josephus had Menes 1300 yrs before Shishak, & Herodotus had Menes (1)1340 yrs before Seti, which implies Shishak is near to Seti of 19th dynasty.)
(Sesonchosis was 25(0(0)) yrs before (or below?) Nilus who was 436 yrs before 1st Olympiad (776 bc), giving a date of 1212 bc for Nilus (and a date of 962 bc for Sesonchosis/Sheshonk?) (Apollonius Rhodius)?)
A few sources agree that the 3rd Intermediate Period is abit more uncertain than even orthodox sources imply (eg Peter James, Rohl, Bambrough).
Peter James thought that the 21st & 22nd dyns were contemporary?
22nd dyn 150 yrs.
"Using Manetho & the Piankhi stela we must note that Pimay surrenders in 715 bc, & his reign includes the 122nd year of the power period of XXII. Thus we have a fold that gets rid of over 100 years & destroys the Shishak = Shoshenq canard."
The 22nd-26th dynasties are agreed/considered to be contemporary or overlapping in orthodox Egyptology.
Sequence of Apis Bulls 18th dyn to 20th dyn & 22nd to 33rd dyn.
Lunar eclipse in reign of Takeloth II (compare solar eclipse of Ashurdan II of "763" bc?)
Synchronism of 22nd/23rd dynasty with Phoenician kings (Rohl, Moscati).
Sycnhronism of 22nd dyn with Assyrian king names (Weigall, Bey)?

23rd dynasty
1st Olympiad (776 bc) was during reign of Petubastes (23rd dynasty) according to [Eratosthenes / Book of Sothis?]
(Sesortosis/Sesonchosis was 25(0(0)) yrs before Nilus who was 436 yrs before 1st Olympiad (776 bc) (Apollonius Rhodius).)
The 22nd-26th dynasties are agreed/considered to be contemporary or overlapping in orthodox Egyptology.

24th dynasty
Josephus says 7th Olympiad was time of Bocchoris?
24 dyn 6 yr (Manetho/Africanus).
24 dyn 44 yr (Manetho/Eusebius).
The 22nd-26th dynasties are agreed/considered to be contemporary or overlapping in orthodox Egyptology.

25th dynasty:
The 22nd-26th dynasties are agreed/considered to be contemporary or overlapping in orthodox Egyptology.
Numerous kings in Piankhi stele.
"Using Manetho & the Piankhi stela we must note that Pimay surrenders in 715 bc, & his reign includes the 122nd year of the power period of XXII. Thus we have a fold that gets rid of over 100 years & destroys the Shishak = Shoshenq canard."
Piye's reign was either 20 or 24 or 30+ yrs.

26th dynasty:
40 yrs desolate/exile/captivity in 26th dyn (Bible).
1-26 dyn 5151.5 yrs (Manetho/Africanus)
1-26 dyn 4383/4384 yrs = 3 sothic cycles (Manetho/Eusebius)
Min (1st dyn) to 26 dyn 11340/1340 yrs (Herodotus).
1st god Pan of the 1st dynasty of 8 gods was 29220 yrs before Amasis 2 in Herodotus (corresponding with Dionysos 1600 yrs or Pan 800 yrs before Amasis 2 in Herodotus).
Hercules of the 2nd dynasty of 12 gods was 17000 or 900 yrs before Amasis 2 (Herodotus).
Moeris (12th dyn) to Amasis (26th dyn) 900 yrs (Herodotus).
Sais 800(0) years before 26th dyn in the Atlantis Account "of Plato".
The blind king Anysis who was 700 yrs before Amasis 2 in Herodotus might match either Nehesy (14th dyn) or Iannas (15th/16th dyn) or Ahmose 1 or Akhenaten of the 18th dynasty?
20-26 dyn 575 yr (Manetho/Eusebius).
The 22nd-26th dynasties are agreed/considered to be contemporary or overlapping in orthodox Egyptology.
26/27-31 dyn 227 yrs (Manetho/Eusebius).
Synchronism of Necho with Nebuchadnezzar (Carchemish).

27th dynasty:
"1663 years the Egyptian state lasted for before Cambyses (525 bc)".
27th dyn 120 yrs.
24/22 architects 3rd/21st-27th/31st dyn.
Manetho/Africanus/Eusebius has between 197 to 227 years for the remaining 5 dynasties 27-31.

28th dynasty:
28th dyn lasted 6 yrs.
3/41/300/330/341 kings 1st to 28th dyn, (1)1340 yrs, 18 Ethiopians, 2/4 x sun reversed (Herodotus).

29th dynasty:
29th dyn 20 yrs.

30th dynasty:
16-30 dyns (Jerome).
1-30 dyns 30437 yrs (Manetho/Africanus)
1-30 dyns 30437 yrs = 20 cycles of 1521 (Manetho/Eusebius)
# kings from gods/1st to 30/31/32/33 dyns (Manetho).
divine dyns & 1-30 dyns 36525 yrs = 25 sothic cycles (Manetho/Africanus/Eusebius/Syncellus).
1-30/31 dyn 2324 yrs (Manetho/Africanus/Eusebius/Syncellus)

31st dynasty:
1-31 dyns 5601/5474/5479/5349/5368 yrs (Manetho/Africanus)
1-31 dyns 4611/4565/4651 yrs (Manetho/Eusebius)
24/22 architects 3rd/21st - 27th/31st dyn.
20-31 dyns 1050/868/848/864/852 yrs (Manetho/Africanus)
20-31 dyns 802/804/837/842 yrs (Manetho/Eusebius)
26/27-31 dyns 227 yrs (Manetho/Eusebius)
Manetho/Africanus/Eusebius has between 197 to 227 years for the remaining 5 dynasties 27-31.
27-31 dyns 197 yrs (Manetho/Africanus).

33rd dynasty (Ptolemaic) :
Sequence of Apis Bulls 18th dyn to 20th dyn & 22nd to 33rd dyn.

Romans:
Sothaic/Siriadic date of 138/139 ad.
Tacitus said that there had been only 4 Phoenixes in Egyptian bc history.
Era of Menophres 1605 years before Diocletian.

3 divine dynasties: 1 gods, 2 demi-gods, 3 manes/dead/mortals.
3 gods/groups: 1 Pan/8, 2 Hercules/12, 3 Dionysus.
3 Hermes: 1 Set, 2 Shu/Num, 3 Thoth/Horus.
3 kingdoms: 1 Old/FIP, 2 Middle/SIP, 3 New/TIP.
3 ages: 1 Stone, 2 Bronze, 3 Iron.
3 pyramids: 1 Great/Khufu, 2 2nd/Khafre/Sphinx, 3 3rd/Menkaure.
3 reincarnations: 1 Seth (Shem), 2 Moses, 3 Samuel.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 17-Jan-2019 at 04:24
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2019 at 23:59

A few extra additions:

The date of the beginning of Egyptian history has ranged from 180,000 yrs bc (Muck), to cosmos 153075 yo (Apollonius, Theohilus of Antioch), to great pyramid "150,000" yrs ago (some believe), to great pyramid "73,300" yrs ago (Balkhi), to creation/Hephaestus 49219 bc / 48863 yrs bc (Laertius), to astronomy started 40000 yrs before 5th cent ad (Capella), to gods 39670 bc (Turin). to Ptah 38575 (Manetho), to gods 36620 yrs bc (Turin), to Ptah 36525 yrs bc (Manetho), to creation/stellar event 30000 yrs bc (Herodotus/Lubicz), to Pan 29220 yrs bc (Herodotus), to creation/gods 28000 bc (Eusebius), to creation/gods 24950 yrs bc (Eusebius), to creation/gods 18000 yrs bc (Siculus), to creation/gods 17680 bc (Syncellus), to creation/gods 14630 yrs bc (Syncellus), to creation/gods 13900 yrs bc (Eusebius)? to calendar start 11542 bc (Tomas, Bellamy), to Pyramid(s) "10,000 yrs bc" (Pyrmamidology), to Denderah calendar date between 10950 to 8800 bc (Tomas), to Age of Leo 10750/10500/10006-8600/8006/8000 (Denderah, Hancock, Tomas) or Age of Cancer 8600/8006-6450/6006, to Sphinx 7000-5000 bc (Schoch), to Siriadic calendar 4231 bc.
(See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_creation .)

The date of the 1st pharaoh/king and/or dynasty has ranged from 11340 yrs bc (Herodotus) to 5867 bc (Champollion) to 5510 (Petrie) to 4455/4400 (Bey) to 34th cent / 3400 bc (Breasted, Berlin school) to 3200 (Hayes, Meyer, Steindorff) to 3150 (Clayton) to 3100 bc (Alford) to 3050 (Clayton) to 30th cent / 3000 bc (Scharff, Hall, Shaw, current orthdox/conventional consensus) to 2900 ("newest research", Ceram), to not later than about 2850 bc ("recent supposition", Lissner) to 2703/2641 (Waddell) to 2399/2300 bc (Josephus, Bristowe) to 2254-2194/2192/1993 bc (Hoeh) to 2224 bc (Palmer) to 946 bc (Newton) to not before 800 ad (Fomenko)?

The dates for Djoser/Sekhemhet and/or the 3rd dynasty of Egypt have ranged from 4945-4731 bc (Petrie), to 3966-3766 (Bey), to 3712 (Rhodius), to ca 3200s (Sekhmekhet carbon date), to 2980-2900 (Breasted, Berlin school), to 27th cent / 2686-2613 bc (Shaw, current conventional consensus), to 1737-1663 (Hoeh).

The date of Khufu and/or the Pyramid(s) and/or Sphinx and/or 4th dynasty has ranged from "150,000" yrs ago (some believe), to "73,300" yrs ago (Balkhi), to "10,000 yrs bc" (Pyrmamidology), to Age of Leo/Cancer (Hancock, Tomas), to 7000-5000 bc (Schoch), to "4731" (Petrie), to "3733" (Bey), to 2900-2750 (Breasted, Berlin), to "The boat of Khufu dates 200 years before Egyptological date of pyramids built", to "2690", to 27th cent bc / 2613-2498/2494 (Shaw, Clayton), to "Kate Spence's astronomical work says Khufu's pyramid should be  dated 50 years the other way from the historical  date ... in other words 250 years lower than the radiocarbon date", to 2144/2140 (astronomical?), to "1726-1703/1699/1663" (Hoeh), to "838" bc (Newton), to "not before 800 ad" (Fomenko)?.

The date of the 12th dynasty has had a dates range of 3459 bc (Petrie) to 2466-2266/2233 (Bey) to 2000-1788 (Breasted, Berlin school) to 1985-1773 (Shaw, present orthodox consensus), to 1892-1680 (Hoeh), to before 1125 (Newton) to 1002-860 bc (Newton).

The duration of the (extended/greater) Hyksos period &/or SIP has ranged from 1660 yrs, to 511/518 years (Josephus), to 400 yrs (San tablet), to 393 years before Danaus (Josephus/Manetho), to 261/260/259/251/250/221/215/200 yrs (Manetho/Eusebius, conventional), to 108/103 yrs (Eusebius &/or Turin Papyrus), to 70 yrs (Manetho/Barbarus)? (Refs include Velikovsky, Van Dine.)

The dates for 18th dynasty have ranged from 1720s-1377 (Jerome) to 1700-1433 (Bey) to 1580-1350 (Petrie, Breasted, Berlin school) to 1550-1295 (Shaw) to 1125-1000s (Newton) to 1076-770 (Hoeh).

The ascribed date of the 19th dynasty has ranged from 1400-1288 (Bey), to 1370s-1182 (Jerome), to 1350-1205 (Breasted, Berlin), to 1322 (Petrie), to 1295-1186 (Shaw), to 900s (Newton, Rohl), 600 bc (Velikovsky).

Joseph's ascribed date has ranged from 1980 bc, to 1876 bc, to 1749/1727-1658 bc (Jerome), to 1706 bc (Usher, Oxford), to 1657/1635 bc (NWT) to 1647/1621 (Compton) to 900 bc (PSBA)?

Joseph's placement in Egyptian history has ranged from 2nd dyn (me, a Hancock forum poster), to 3rd dyn (Mohler, Wyatt, Walker, me), to 4th dyn (Hoeh, me), to 5th dyn (Courville, Wyatt, me), to 11th dyn (Rohl), to 12th dyn (Courville, Rohl, Alford, Bullen), to 13th dyn (Aufni), to 15/16th dyn (Bey, Compton, conventional), to "immediately before 18th dyn" (Bey), to 18th dyn (Marquart, Jeremias, Mercer, Barton, Rancke, Boysen, Albright, Osman, Sullivan), to 19th dyn (2018 linkedin comment), to 19th-20th dyn (Sayce, PSBA), to 22nd dyn (PSBA)?

Moses' &/or the exodus' ascribed biblical-based date has ranged from 1700 yrs bc (Josephus/Lysimachus), to 1690/1662/1652 bc, to 1592/1580/1572/1512 bc (NWT, Jerome, Mercatante, Usher), to  1491/1446/1440 bc (Usher, NIV), to 1391/1350/1335/1314/1300 bc (Rabbinic, American, Mahler, Brugsch, "modern scholarship", Oxford), to 1280/1276/1271/1250/1215/1200 bc (Price, Rabbinic, American, Mercatante, Albright, Spanuth), to 7th Olympiad (Apion), to never ("myth").

Moses' &/or the exodus' placement in Egyptian history has ranged from:
4th dyn (a lay amateur based on Koran), to 5th dyn (Hoeh), to 6th dyn (me, Courville), to 12th dyn (Down, Rohl, me), to 13th dyn (Hoeh, Rohl, Velikovsky), to 15th/16th dyn (Jannes), to 17th dyn (Seqenenre), to 18th dyn (Manetho, Freud, Boysen, Wyatt), to 19th dyn (Ramses 2, Merneptah), to 19th-20th dyn (Manetho), to 24th dyn (Lysimachus/Tacitus).

The Thera/Santorini eruption has an ascribed date range of 1628/1627/1626/1621/1620/1610/1600 (carbon, Walsh), mid 16th cent (carbon/archaeology compromise), to 1570/1525/1520/(before) 1500/1475/1470/1450/1440 (archaeology, Mavor, Hoflmayer), to 14th cent (Mavor), to 13th cent (Mavor).
(Some scholars like Mavor and Boysen and myself have thought the event might be connected with the biblical Exodus.)

Re the first post an alternative version arranged by sources rather than dynasties is here http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37787&PID=723406
(Useful to be able to see all the ones in the same sources together.)




Edited by Arthur-Robin - 19-Jan-2019 at 20:04
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2019 at 01:26

It looks like the blind king Anysis and city Anysis in Herodotus (& Newton) is probably the sun king Akhenaten/Ikhnaton/Khunaton/Ankhenmaat (who might be Agur of Proverbs 30 or Genubath/Hadad of Kings/Chronicles), who "went blind in the last part of his reign", and his city Akhetaten. Anysis is followed by Sethos/Seti (19th dynasty).

Anysis was 700 yrs before Amyrtaeus (404-399) or Amasis 2 (570-526) which may confirm Akhenaten's match with the time of king David (1000s bc), or else confirm Ahmosis 1 being ca 1200s bc (200 years after Moeris who matches with the time of Moses of ca 1400s bc).

Though Anysis is actually a confounding/conflation of the 5th dyn sun king Unas/Wenis (Elephantine) and a 14th/15th/18th/19th dyn king (Nehesy or Iannas or Amasis 1 or Akhenaten or Ay or Arisu), and maybe also a 25th dyn Ethiopian king (Hanes)?

List/chart/table of dates/periods:
Hercules 900 yrs (Herodotus) (12th dyn)
Moeris 900 yrs (Herodotus) (12th dyn)
Atlantis 900(0) yrs (Plato)?
Sais (Saites/Salitis?) 800(0) yrs (Plato) (15th/16th dyn)?
Dionysus/Pan 800 yrs (Herodotus)
Anysis/Sabacos 700 yrs (Herodotus) (14/15/16/18/19th dyn)
Amasis 2 (Plato/Herodotus) (26th dyn)
Amyrtaeus (Herodotus) (28th dyn).

Table of Egyptian 12th-18th dynasties & Biblical events rough matches:
12th (& 13th?) dyn -- Moses c 1400s bc
15th/16th dyn -- judges/Edomite kings/Amalek/Midian
17th dyn -- Sisera/Jabin (Judges)
Amarna 18th dyn -- David c 1000s bc, Agur? Genubath?

 -----
* There are quality matches of the Amarna letters period and Heretic kings period with the times of David. A couple/few of the best possible matches include:

Akizzi governor/king of Katna/Qatna/"Hamath" in Amarna letters might match Achish son of Maoch/Maacah king of Gath (Gittite) & Ziglag (Philistines) in David's time in bible?

Similar 3 years drought/famine/plague of David's reign and of Amarna period.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 28-Jan-2019 at 01:30
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2019 at 06:54

Recently i had another critic dismiss all our articles stark evidences just because they claim we don't have references. (We do mention alot of sources throughout our posts (as seen in the above posts), but they seem to mean excessive and full name, title, date, publisher, page/chapter/verse citations.) This has happened a number of times over the years/decades and i have now come to see that I am wasting my time trying to show our stark matches evidences because it is not easy to beat these cunning tactics and forcings of people in power, plus it just take far too much massive time and efforts to be able to do what they insist. However, since they force it that it is hopeless us trying to show our stark matches, we are left with the only remaining option of turning their own cunning tactics back on them and their orthodox chronology. This post is an attempt to show from one case study on one of their supposed matches that their own thesis doesn't really have any much quality and qauntity references behind it. (Since they insist we have to provide excessive references we are turning it around and demanding them to provide adequite acceptible excessive highst maximum standards references and proofs that "Shishak = Sheshonk".)

Shishak/Susakim of the Bible (1 Kings 14, 2 Chronicles 12) does not match Sheshonk/Sosenq 1 of the 22nd dynasty of ancient Egypt.

The main Shishak/Susakim candidates have been:
Sesostris (12th or "18th" or 19th dyn) (Josephus, Velikovsky, Newton)
Tuthmosis 1 (18th dyn) (Velikovsky)
Tuthmosis 3 (18th dyn) (Velikovsky)
Tutankhamen (18th dyn) (a discarded previous candidate match of ours)
Ay/Armais (18th dyn) (Rian Boysen)
Seti 1 or 2 (19th dyn) (one of our candidates based on Josephus & Herodotus)
Ramses 2 "Sesostris" (19th dyn) (Newton, Rohl)
Siptah (19th dyn) (a candidate of ours)
Ramses 3 sw-heka (20th dyn) (Peter James)
Sheshonk 1 (22nd dyn) (coventional, Kitchen, Clayton).
Since the orthodox chronology is still the only main conventional rival to our alternative chronology, this article is only about showing that the orthodox Sheshonk Shishak-candidate is wrong (because they do not have a quality & quantity matches evidences, and because other candidates have equal or better evidences). The main better candidate for Shishak seems to probably be Ramses 2.

These are the main reasons why they believe "Shishak is probably (not proven) Sheshonk":

- The name Sheshonk/Sosenq is similar to Shishak/Susakim.
- Sheshonk's campaign list in Karnak/Thebes lists 150/155/156 towns & villages in Israel-Judah/Syria-Palestine/Canaan (including Arad, Hekel Abram, Megiddo, Bethshan, Hapharaim, Gibeon). Sheshonk set up a stone slab in Megiddo with his name & titles inscribed upon it.
- Sheshonk 1 built 2 temples, in Memphis & in Karnak/Thebes. The one in Thebes is described as "the greatest temple area ever constructed by human hands". This could be comparable to Solomon's temple, and/or could have been for housing the taken treasure shields/treasures.
- Sheshonk's son had a gold bracelet, and he (the son) gave gifts of gold  & silver amounting to 200,000 kg / 200 or 373 tons, "much more ... than any other pharaoh records giving". (Gold trinity of Osorkhon II. Gold funerary mask of Sheshonk II.)
They claim that "the treasures taken by Shishak are also highly unlikely" and "should probably be seen as  a theological construct rather than as historical references" (refs Wiki, Finkelstein).
- The name of king Zerah, who comes not longer after Shishak in the biblical account, supposedly may match that of Osorkhon who comes shortly after Sheshonk in the same dynasty.
- Shishak came out of Egypt with Lubim(s). Sheshonk was the founder of the 22nd dynasty which was Libyan/Bubastite/Tanite.
- The orthodox ascribed supposed date of 22nd dynasty supposedly matches the biblical date of Shishak (of Thiele's).
- Supposedly fits in sequence with other preceeding and suceeding orthodox/conventional Egypt-Bible matches.
- Claims of "no evidence of Egyptian cavalry exists from before the 27th dynasty".
- "the numbers of the Egyptian soliders given in Chronicles can be safely igored as impossible on Egyptological grounds", or are exagerated by a factor of 10, and are "logistically impossible" .

We now address below each of the reasons in the above list.

- The name Sheshonk/Sosenq is similar to Shishak/Susakim.

Criticism: What about the -n-? There are also other names in other dynasties that are similar including Tutankh-amen, Ramses II "Ses(y)"/"Sestura"/"Sesostris" (refs Manetho, Newton, Bey, Rohl). (Shishak's/Susakim's name has been suggested to mean "brightness, illustrious", or it might be related to Shushan "lily, white, rose" (rose of Sharon?) or sus "horse"? Forensic studies have found that Ramses 2 seemingly had red or auburn or white hair.)
Sosenq's name is alternatively similar to that of King So who appears sometime later in Kings/Chronicles. (Also compare names containing Shushinak in the Elamite king list.)

- Sheshonk's campaign list in Karnak/Thebes lists 150/155/156 towns & villages in Israel-Judah/Syria-Palestine/Canaan (including Arad, Hekel Abram, Megiddo, Bethshan, Hapharaim, Gibeon). Sheshonk set up a stone slab in Megiddo with his name & titles inscribed upon it.

Criticisms: Sheshonk's campaign list doesn't match Shishak's, but it might match So's (refs include Velikovsky). The names listed in the 'Bubastite portal' at Karnak and reliefs in el-Hibeh are "located primarily in the territory of the (northern) Kingdom of Israel, with a few listed in the Negev and perhaps Philistia" (ref Wikipedia). Jerusalem is not mentioned (nor are Hebron, Beer-sheba, Bethlehem, Jaffa, Gath, Askelon). "Was 'Shishak' so modest that he did not mention the capital he conquered and the rich booty of the temple...?" "Almost no name could be located in all of Judah...." Of the 150 place-names in the list "only 17 can be located with certainty, and 2 more with probability. 14 of these belong to Israel... while the remaining 5 in Judah are, with 1 exception, obscure villages." (Hekel is also an Aramaic word.) "This gives the impression that only Israel was subject to Sosenk, not Judah". (Ref Velikovsky 'Ages in Chaos' pg 188.)
(Did Shishak carry all those temple treasures with him on the rest of his supposed campaign in Israel?)
The bible says Shishak "captured the fortified cities of Judah and finally came to Jerusalem" (Chronicles 12).

In contrast Ramses 2 may mention Jerusalem as Shalama or as Kadesh (refs Bey, Rohl, or Velikovsky). (The "forest of Labwi" in the battle of Kadesh of Ramses 2 recalls the 'House of (the forest of) Lebanon' of Jerusalem, and the river Orontes sounds/looks similar to the river Jordan?) In his 3rd campaign "The other force, led by Ramses, attacked Jerusalem and Jericho...." (Ref Wikipedia.)
Sheshonk "claimed he had brought them back under Egyptian control, as they had been 200 years before." (Ref Millard.) "Sheshonq ... in a ... campaign, the like of which had not been seen since the days of Ramses 3 in the 20th dynasty" (Clayton). "Canaan was ruled by Egypt for most of the time before Merneptah". So there are earlier possible matches for Shsihak in the 18th to 20th dynasties.

- Sheshonk 1 built 2 temples, in Memphis & in Karnak/Thebes. The one in Thebes is described as "the greatest temple area ever constructed by human hands". This could be comparable to Solomon's temple, and/or could have been for housing the taken treasure shields/treasures.

Criticism: Lots of other pharaoh's built temples too, including Seti 1 and Ramses 2.
 
- Sheshonk's son had a gold bracelet, and he (the son) gave gifts of gold  & silver amounting to 200,000 kg / 200 or 373 tons, "much more ... than any other pharaoh records giving". (Gold trinity of Osorkhon II. Gold funerary mask of Sheshonk II.)
They also claim that "the treasures taken by Shishak are also highly unlikely" and "should probably be seen as  a theological construct rather than as historical references" (refs Wiki, Finkelstein).

Criticisms: They admit that the bracelet only "may have been" made from the temple gold, and that "Nothing tells us where this gold came from but it seems reasonable to suppose that much of it was the gold that Shishak carried away" (ref Millard). How come they can use words like "probably", "may", "seems", "suppose", while i have sometimes been criticised for using a few similar words? (The 22nd dynasty were Libyan Sea Peoples. The Sea Peoples have been connected with Atlanteans (ref Spanuth). Atlantis was Tiahuanaco (ref Bambrough). Could the gold be from there? Nubia's name also means "gold".)

Tutankhamen's tomb is famous for its golden treasures. Amenhotep III gave gifts of "innumerable masses of gold, silver and copper" (ref Bey). Gold is represented as being brought in tribute in many nobles tombs of the 18th & 19th dynasties (ref Clayton's Chronicle pg 155). Seti 2 & Tewosret had gold jewelery (ref Clayton). Gold ear-plugs of Ramses XI (Clayton). Gold braclets of Psusennes/Amenmope (21st dyn). Silver coffin & gold face-mask of Psusennes (21st dyn). Gold pectorals and gold funerary mask of Amenmope (21st dyn).

"The inscription refers in general terms to tribute given to Sosenk. But where are the spoils, the furnature and vessels of the temple of Solomon? Was 'Shishak' so modest that he did not mention the capital he conquered and the rich booty of the temple...?" (Ref Velikovsky 'Ages in Chaos' pg 188.)

- The name of king Zerah, who comes not longer after Shishak in the biblical account, supposedly may match that of Osorkhon who comes shortly after Sheshonk in the same dynasty.

Criticism: The name Osorkhon does not seem a very good/close match for the name Zerah. There are other Zerah-name candidate-matches in other dynasties including Sestura (Ramses 2), Perao or Baenra (Merneptah), Siptah (19th dyn), Setnakht (19th/20th dyn).
Sheshonk & Osorkhon were in the same dynasty, but the bible has Shishak king of Egypt and Zerah "the Ethiopian". (Though Shishak did come out of Egypt with Lubim & "Ethiopians".)
Zerah might be connected with Terah in the Ugaritic texts (ref Velikovsky). The fire at Ugarit happened in the time of either Akhenaten (18th dyn) or Merneptah (19th dyn) (lost ref Rohl? Velikovsky? Spanth?)
Sheshonk 1's son Osorkhon 1 "was not strong enough to follow his [father's] example as a conqueror" (ref Millard). "Sheshonk's campaign was for a long time the last. Not for more than 300 yrs was Egypt again in a position to enforce its ancient claim to the suzeraintiy of the Syria-Palestine territories." (Ref Keller.)

- Shishak came out of Egypt with Lubim(s). Sheshonk was the founder of the 22nd dynasty which was Libyan/Bubastite/Tanite.

Criticisms: The name Libya is first known to be mentioned in the 19th dynasty. Lubim possibly might not even match Libyan, some say it might be Lydian, or it might match Nubian (there being an n/l interchange in Hamito-Semitic, and in/between some other languages such as Celtic). Tutankhamen had campaign in Nubia (refs Clayton, Wiki); Seti 1 & Ramses 2 had campaigns/raids in Libya (refs Bey, Clayton).

- The orthodox ascribed supposed date of 22nd dynasty supposedly matches the biblical date of Shishak (of Thiele's).

Criticisms: Orthodox chronology has no proofs of their ascribed dates of the dynasties except for the 2 Siriadic/Sothaic dates of the 12th & 18th dynasties which are admitted/agreed to be problematic. The few dating methods that they do have all have problems with them (Sothaic dates, Egyptian/Assyrian regnal years, Apis bulls, carbon dating, tree rings, Thera, Shishak-Shehonk, etc). We can not address all the dating systems in this article, see our other articles on them.
"The date of Sheshonk's accession is dependent on Israelite chronology."
There is a gap in the Apis bulls from the 20th to the 22rd dyn.

A number of orthodox and other sources agree that the 3rd Intermediate Period is a difficult/confused/obscure period of which the chronology is not certain (Velikovsky, Rohl, Peter  James, us).
 Even the orthodox chronology at the time of this article has dyns 21 & 22, 22 & 23, 23 & 24, 25 & 26 overlapping.
"Using Manetho & the Piankhi stela we must note that Pimay surrenders in 715 bc, & his reign includes the 122nd year of the power period of XXII. Thus we have a fold that gets rid of over 100 years & destroys the Shishak = Shoshenq canard."

Herodotus said Moeris (12th dynasty) was only 900 years before Amasis (26th dyn), in contrast to the orthodox "1900" date of the 12th dynasty.

( Table:
Dionysos/Pan & 8 gods 1600 yrs (Herodotus) (1st-8th dyn.)
Atlantis 900(0) yrs (Plato, Mavor)
Hercules & 12 gods 900 yrs (Herodotus)
Moeris of 12th dyn 900 yrs (Herodotus)
Sais 800(0) yrs (Plato) (Saites/Salitis of 15th dyn?)
Pan/Dionysos 800 yrs
Anysis 700 yrs (Herodotus) (18th/15th/14th dyn?) )

Josephus said there were 1300 yrs from Menes (1st dyn) to Shishak/Solomon (1000s/900s bc), and Herodotus said there were (1)1340 yrs from Menes to Seti (19th dyn), which gives a date of not earlier than 2300s bc for Menes (in contrast to the orthodox "3400/3000" bc ascribed date), and which implies that Shishak & Seti were around about the same time (agreeing with alternative placements of Shishak in the 18th or 19th or 20th dynasty).
(Josephus has Pharaohs until Solomon; Newton has Gods until Merneptah.)
Orthodox scholars unfairly reject/dismiss sources like Herodotus, Bible, Josephus, etc as being supposedly "unreliable" or "not authorities", but they don't prove that the specific information is untrue, while we show that the informations agree with other sources/evidences. (They might claim/think we do the same vice-versa, but we don't because we do give evidences that theirs are wrong except when we are just briefly saying their dating methods are unreliable/problematic. Ours are also ancient sources, while theirs are only modern.)

Many of the orthodox supposed Egyptian-Biblical horizontal "synchronisms" are wrong or weak. There are many evidences of stronger Egyptian-Biblical horizontal matches in other earlier dynasties, some of which are stark and are proofs that the orthodox ascribed dynasties dates must be wrong.

- Supposedly fits in sequence with other preceeding and suceeding orthodox/conventional Egypt-Bible matches.

Table of orthodox/conventional supposed chronological correspondences:
12th dyn -- patriarchs ("1900s" bc)
15th dyn (Hyksos) -- Joseph/Jacob ("1700s" bc)
15th-19th (400 yrs) -- 430 yrs Jose to Moses
18th dyn (Amarna) -- "Israel not in Canaan"
19th dyn -- Moses/exodus, Israel, Philistines ("1300/1200s" bc)
20th dyn -- Philistines/Saul
21th dyn -- David (1000s bc)
22nd dyn -- Shishak, Zerah (900s bc)
25th dyn -- So, Tirhakah, Assyrians
26th dyn -- Necho, Hophra (600 bc)
27th-31st dyn -- Persians.

Criticisms:
Quite a few of their supposed horizontal (and/or vertical) "synchronisms" are wrong or weak. We can not give the evidences against each of all of these correspondences in this article (esp since they force us to excessively reference everything), they are addressed in separate articles.
They have Saul, David & Solomon/Shishak spread over 2-3 dynasties (start of 20th dyn to start of 22nd)!
Other scholars including myself have given evidences of alternative, stronger matches in other earlier dynasties. Again we can not address them all in this article about Shishak & Sheshonk, they are given in other articles of ours and others.

Table of better matches:
1st (or 2nd) dyn -- Abraham
(?2nd to) 3rd to 4th dyn (to 5th?) -- Joseph/Jacob
11th dyn -- Elim
(6th &) 12th (& 13th) dyn -- Moses/exodus
15th/16th dyn (Hyksos) -- Amalek, Anak, Judges, Edomite kings
15th-19th (400 yrs) -- 480 yrs Moses to Solomon
17th dyn -- Sisera/Jabin
18th dyn -- Tahtimodshi?
18th dyn (Amarna) -- David, Agur ben Jakeh
18th or 19th dyn -- Sheba
(?18th or) 19th dyn -- Shishak
19th or 20th dyn -- Zerah?
20th dyn (Sea Peoples) -- Jehoshaphat?
21st dyn (Tanis, Wenamun) -- Zoan & Noph
21st or 22nd dyn -- So?
22nd dyn (Fankhu) -- Tirhakah, Assyrians, Phoenicians, Elam
Olympiad
25th dyn -- Assyrians
26th dyn -- Necho, Hophra
27th-31st dyns -- Persians.
(Refs: our own papers, D Rohl, I Velikovsky, D Courville, I Newton, R Wyatt, H Hoeh's Compendium, D Down, the Bible.)

- Counter-evidences in favour of the 22nd dynasty being later in the King/Chronicles period include:

  Sycnhronisms of 22nd dyn kings with Phoenicians of the kings/chronicles period (not of David & Solomon's times) (refs Moscati, Rohl, Clayton). The synchronism of Herihor/Wenamun with Zekarbaal might also be connected with the Phoenician king Yeharbaal?

  Names of the 22nd dyn kings are similar to Assyrian kings names (Takeloth/Tiglath, Osorkhon/Sargon, Nimlot/Nimrod) and Elamite names (Sosenq/Susinak) (refs Weigall, Bey). (As far as i know, and as far as i can make out, Kitchen's supposed connection of Sheshonk with the Assyrian eponym system is not a direct synchronism of Sheshonk with the Assyrian lists but only an indirect one via the supposed match with the biblical Shishak.)

  The 22nd dynasty was at Tanis. This might be connected with the princes of Zoan (Tanis) and Noph in the bible? Compare: "In previous years the land had been divided among kings, local chieftains, and priests. The new pharaoh united Egypt under his rule...." (Ref Millard. Clayton says similar.) (The 21st dynasty was also Tanite. Noph was Memphis, though it might be a mistake for No(-amon) which was Thebes? The 17th to 21st dynasties were Theban/Diospolitan. Sheshonk 1 built temples in Memphis & Karnak/Thebes.)

- Counter-evidences in favour of the 19th dynasty being contemporary of Shishak/Solomon:

  A contemporary of Ramses 2 was Ahiram (ref Moscati?) whose name is similar to the biblical Hiram who was a contemporary of Solomon (who was an elder contemporary of Shishak). (Other similar names to Hiram include Horemhab, Piramses.) Seti 1 "annihilated the kings of the land of the Phoenicians" (Bey). Bey also mentions pictures of Ramses 2's victories over the Phoenicians.

  Ramses 2's daughter Bint-Anat "daughter of Anat" could possibly match Ano the sister of queen Thelkemina the wife of king Shishak/Susakim who married Jeroboam in Jewish sources?
(Perhaps compare that Ramses 2 "married the daughter of the king of Kheta. The prince of Kheta ... conducted the bride to his son-in-law." (refs Bey, Clayton)?)

  A 'Swsk' (and a 'Terah/Zerah') is mentioned in Ugaritic texts. The fire at Ugarit was after Akhenaten who is conected with Ugarit in the Amarna letters, or Merneptah whose name was found in Ugarit.

  Shishak reigned x yrs + 5 yrs + x yrs (during the reigns of Solomon & Rehoboam). Ramses 1's Syrian campaign was in his 5th/8th year (ref Clayton).

  Shishak came out of Egypt with Lubim(s) "Libyans", Sukkiim "nomads" and Kussiim "Cushites/Ethiopians". Seti 1 and Ramses 2 had campaigns in Libya, and both are connected with the Thuhi/Thuhen/Tuheni "the light or fair people" of Libya (and with Tuhir "chosen ones") (ref Bey). (There is sometimes an s(h) / t(h) interchange between Egyptian & Hebrew as seen in Thufi "reedy lake" and Hebrew Jam Suf / Yam Suph "sea of reeds/weeds". The suffix -im is sometimes -in, and/or m & n sometimes interchange. Alternatively, Sqrssw/Shekelesh are mentioned in Ramses 2's Sherden campaign.) Seti and Ramses are also both connected with Cush/Nubia (refs Bey, Clayton).
Shishak and/or Zerah came with cavalry/horsemen/chariots. Horses and/or chariots figure in the 15th and 18th and 19th dynasties events in Egypt and Canaan/Israel/Palestine (Clayton, Wyatt). Rohl suggested the Merneptah stele's connection with horses/chariots may indicate a date not before Solomon in the bible?
This contrasts with claims of "no evidence of Egyptian cavalry exists from before the 27th dynasty".
Shishak came up with "1200 chariots and 60000 horsemen". Ramses 2 "gathered together one of the greatest forces of Egyptian troops ever seen, 20000 men in four divisions of 5000 each.... .... The Hittite king assmebled an army even greater .... In two sections of about 18000 and 19000 men, plus 2500 chariots...." (Ref Clayton's 'Chronicle of Pharaohs'.) Ramses built factories which produced "some 1000 weapons... about 250 chariots in 2 weeks...." (ref Wiki).
Orthodox scholar have previously claimed that "the numbers of the Egyptian soliders given in Chronicles can be safely igored as impossible on Egyptological grounds", or exagerated by a factor of 10, and are "logistically impossible" (ref Wikipedia).

   The name of the Kheta "Hittite" king Suppiluliumas/Sapalili/Saprer mentioned in records of Seti 1 & Ramses 2 (ref Bey) is intriguingly pretty similar to the name of king Solomon of the bible, especially condisering the coincidence that Solomon & Shishak do seem to have been at the same time. Might his son Ma(u)ro-sar be R(eh)oboam (with transposition, or with the heiroglyphs read different order)? (Sar means "king". Kheta-sar king of Judah?)

   The 18th dynasty 'Hymn to Aten' has similarities with Psalm 104 (refs include Clayton). (Not surprising if Agur ben Jakeh of Proverbs 30 is Akhenaten/Khunaton.)
The New Kingdom Ramesside 20th dynasty 'Instruction of Amenmope(t)' has been said to have similarities with the Proverbs of Solomon.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 13-Feb-2019 at 02:39
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2019 at 02:36

The two main "synchronisms" pillars of the conventional Egyptian-Biblical chronological matches scheme are "Moses/exodus in the 19th dynasty", and "Shishak matches Sheshonk of the 22nd dynasty". As we have recently already disproven the Shishak & Sheshonk one we now turn to showing that the Moses & 19th dynasty one is also weak and wrong, which will leave their chronological matches scheme adrift without their only two main horizontal supposed Egyptian-Biblical "synchronisms".

We will break this one on Exodus up into sections rather than one long post like the last one. Here are first sections on Ramses and Pithom.

- Ramses:

One of the anchors of the orthodox chronology was that Exodus mentions a city Ramses and maybe implies that a pharaoh/king named Ramses, while it is supposed that the first pharoahs with the name Ramses occur in the 19th & 20th dynasties, and it is known that Ramses 2 (re)built a city which was named Pi-Ramses.

Criticisms:

The bible spells the name abit different (Raamses vs Rameses/Ramses)?
Ramses was also in the story of Joseph in Genesis but they don't say Joseph can't be before the 19th dynasty (though they could claim it is an anachronism, but then the one of Moses could also be an anchronism).

King Ramses:
The bible doesn't necessarily mention for certain any king named Ramses, only a city. (They dont also say that the king in Joseph's story is also called Ramses.) Traditional sources variously give the name of the pharaoh of the exodus as being either:

Pharaoh ('Exodus'),
Ramses (based on the city name in Exodus),
(Tawi-)Thom/Typhon  (based on Pithom in 'Exodus', and the El-Arish inscription),
Assyrian (interpretation of a verse in one of the biblical prophets),
Palmanothes (Artapanus),
Chenephres (Artapanus),
Melol/Adikam (Jashar),
Phritiphantes (Chaeremon),
Akhencres (ecclesiastical writers),
Sesostris (footnote in Josephus),
Concharis,
Timaeus/Tutimaeus (Velikovsky, Manetho), Amenophis/Merneptah (Manetho),
Horus/Bocchoris (Lysimachus/Tacitus).

There are some other Ra-mses names or Ra-mses like names in earlier dynasties in some sources, eg:

Mares ("gift of the sun", Eratosthenes king list),
Rayosis (Eratosthenes),
Mesochris (2nd/3rd),
Moscheres (4th dyn, Eratosthenes),
Ramses name found in 4th dynasty site (though orthodox scholars believe it is from Ramses 2 "sticking his name all over the place, ref Hoeh),
Pyramid (3rd-4th dyn),
some scholars think Rhampsinitis in Herodotus was Redjedef (4th dyn),
Se-ra "son of Ra" (4th dyn),
Rimush (Akkad dyn "synchronous with 6th dyn"),
Rameri/Meryre (6th dyn),
'son of Ra' Sesostris 1 (temple of (city of) sun/Re, 12th dyn),
Ranmaat/Labari/Nemare (12th dyn),
Thyosimares ("mighty is the sun", Eratostenes),
Imyremeshaw (13th dyn),
Armiyses & Rameses/Ramesomenes/Ramesseseos/Ramessameno/Ramesse (before/13th dyn, book of Sothis),
mosre (13th dyn),
Se-ra Ahmose (17th dyn),
A(r)messes (18th dyn),
Mesphres (18th dyn),
Ramose (18th dyn),
Ramses 1 & 2 (19th dyn),
"Her-mes" (Hislop)?

(There are also Moses names or Moses like names in earlier dynasties as we show in the Moses section.) Ramses means "sun-god born/son". The god-king Ra's/Re's reign started from the 2nd/3rd/4th/5th dynasty (Raneb/Nebra, Rahotep, Reufu, Redjedef, Sera/Sare, 5th dyn sun kings, "Ra founded Thebes"), like the 1st god-king Ptah's started from the 1st or 3rd dyn (Ptah is Memphite, the 1st & 3rd-8th dyns are Memphite, 1st god-king Ptah/Pan matches 1st king Menes of 1st dyn).
Ramses 2 has better matches with the time of Shishak than with the time of Moses (see our Shishak posts).
The Pharaoh of Exodus has better matches with the kings of the 12th dynasty than with the ones of the 19th dynasty.
Herodotus said the chariots/horses were lost in the reign of Sesostris (12th not "18th" or "19th" dyn), and he also said Moeris was only 900 years before Amasis or Herodotus or Amyrateus, which is similar date to Moses being "480 years before Solomon (1000/900s)" in the bible.

City Ramses:
The bible doesn't say Pi-ramses, only Ramses. (Incidentally an Egyptologist said to me that "p- was not used in the Old Kingdom and Middle Kingdom", which may confirm Ramses was early.)
Pi-ramses was Avaris which was abandoned by the Hyksos centuries earlier (and the Hyksos found the town abandoned from earlier occupants).
Piramses is too close to the ancient Egyptian border to be Ramses, and it is also too late in overall dynastic Egyptian history to match Exodus (which is earlier in overall Biblical history).
In Exodus the building was with mud-bricks, but the later city of Pi-Ramses seems to have been mainly/more/mostly built of stones (though there were also some bricks found there)?
The land of Goshen was also called Ramses in Genesis. As we will show in the Goshen section, Goshen "the best of the land" was in the Giza area (Middle Egypt), not in the Fakus/Phacussa area of the n.e. Delta (Lower Egypt). Josephus said the exodus started from Latopolis (Sokhem) which is near Sakkara/Memphis.
Evidence suggests that Moses was in the 12th dynasty (see other articles of ours and of other scholars), and there are candidates for the treasure city of Rameses in the 12th dynasty such as:

the Labyrinth/Lahun of king Labari/Nemare (l & r interchange in Egyptian, and within/between some other languages like Polynesian); or
temple of (the city of) the-sun/Re (son of Ra Sesostris 1, 12th dyn); or
"Ra founded Thebes" ("founded Piramses according to same plan").
Kahun the pyramid town of the Lahun pyramid of Sesostris 2 was "abandoned suddenly" (refs Clayton, Down, wiki).

- Pithom:

'Exodus' mentions (one or) two treasure cities called "Pithom & Ramses" / "Ramses & Pithom". Conventional chronologists believe that Ramses matches Piramses, and that Pithom matches Pa-tmu / Pi-tum / Per-atum / Patumus ("the" or "city/house of" + "Thom" or "Atum"), which is the modern Tell er-Retaba in the north eastern Nile delta (north-east Lower/North Egypt), which both appear in the 19th dynasty. Some believe that there was a pharaoh/king called (Tawi-)Thom.

Criticisms:

Their "Pithom" site is too close to Succoth and to the border, whereas the 'Exodus' account implies they are not so close?
An Egyptologist in a linkedin Egyptology group said to me that "p- was not used in the Old Kingdom and Middle Kingdom", which might imply that Pithom may not be Pi-tum? (Though this might only apply to p- "the" and not to pa/per "city/house"? But if so it depends on which one the Pi- in the biblical Pithom is. The bible has Pi- not Per-.)

The bible does not necessarily imply that there was a king Thom, only that there was a city Pithom.
The Thom of Pithom could alternatively be the god Atum/Tum/Tmu rather than a king Thom.
Spanuth's king Tawi-Thom in the 19th dynasty is spurious/ephermeal.
There are matches in the 12th dynasty for a city Pithom, and/or a king Thom, and/or the god Atum:

The god-king Atum's reign was earlier in the list of god kings than the orthodox "Pithom" in the 19th dynasty is in overall dynastic Egyptian history.
Atum who scholars claim the Ipuwer paprus of the "FIP or SIP" is linked with (refs I Velikovsky 'Ages in Chaos', S Compton 'Exodus Lost')?
The temple of (Ra-)Atum at Heliopolis in the reign of Kheper-ka-ra Senusret 1 (12th dyn, ref Bey).
"like the god Tmu" of Amemenhet 2?
Meydum (m/p interchange, or m- prefix?)
The unlocated capital city Itj-tawy in the 12th dynasty (refs Rohl, Clayton). (Compare tawy "two" with Thomas "twin"? m & w can interchange in some languages.)
Tithoes the name of the builder of the Labyrinth (ref Cooper/Brewers)?
Pium/Fayum (lake Moeris) which was built by a 12th dynasty king according to Herodotus. (Note that the earlier Pium and the later Peratum are both associated with lakes.)
A king Thom is also found in the El-Arish inscription story which Veikovsky showed has quality matches with Exodus.
Amuntimaeus/Timaeus in the 12th dynasty. Tutimaeus/Timaeus/Tawi-Thom/Thom in the 13th dynasty (refs Manetho, Keller, Velikovsky).

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2019 at 00:50

Continuing on disproving the "exodus in 19th dynasty" match of conventional chronology:

- Treasure cities:

'Exodus' says that the king forced Hebrews to help build (arei-)miskenoth "treasure/store cities" (named/and?) Pithom & Ramses. Orthodox theorists suppose(d) that this matches with granaries and storehouses at the later Pitum & Piramses of Ramses 2.

Criticisms:

This is only a coincidence. There are many store/treasure houses/rooms in Egyptian history.
We have already shown that the bible doesn't say Pi-rameses(-meryamun), but just says Raamses, as well as giving other reasons why the two biblical places don't/can't match the 2 n.e. Delta ones of the 19th dynasty.
The granaries & storehouses of Pitum & Piramses are not necessarily a definite or very quality match with the "treasure cities" of 'Exodus' 1.
There are better candidate matches in the 12th dynasty where we place Moses, eg:
"all the tekhenen" of the building of Senusert 1? (Tekhenen is similar to Miskenoth with a possible m- prefix, s/t interchange, and plural/feminine suffix?)
The "huge quantities of ... stores ... found in Sesostris' funerary temple".
The Labyrinth, which had "many rooms" or "3000 apartments, half of them underground" (Pliny, Pomponius Mela, Herodotus, Cooper/Brewers, Wikipedia, etc), near the artificial lake Fayum/Pium.

Exodus says the Hebrews were forced to make bricks for the cities/buildings. In contrast, the Habiru "hauled stones", and pictures of the city of Pi-ramses that i have seen show mainly stone blocks buildings (though some bricks are also mentioned in reports/records).
We place Moses in the 12th dynasty rather than the 19th. Brick buildings are most prominent in the First Intermediate Period and Middle Kingdom (see pictures and descriptions in Clayton's 'Chronicle' and other sources).

- Goshen (Genesis, Exodus 8:22, 9:26, Joshua 10:41, 11:16, 15:51)

Orthodox scholars have the opinion that the foreign Hebrews would have dwelt in the north-east Delta (Lower/North Egypt) rather than in Egypt. This is supposedly implied by Genesis saying Joseph went up to meet Jacob, and that Joseph didn't dwell at Goshen with Jacob. The Hyksos were in the same area, and the Sethroite nome there is associated with Set(h). Goshen in Joshua is also seemingly near the s.w. border of Israel/Palestine/Canaan. They correspond the name Goshen/Gesem with the city and nome of Qesem/Fakus/Phacussa in the n.e. Delta. In Genesis the land of Goshen is also called Ramses, and orthodox scholars believe that the biblical city of Raamses matches the 19th dyn city of Pi-Ramses(-Meriamun) which was the same as Avaris in the n.e. Delta.

Criticisms:

These don't fit well with a n.e. Delta location of Goshen: In Genesis, Pharaoh made Joseph's brothers overseers of his cattle. Exodus says the Hebrews had multiplied greatly in Egypt and were throughout the land. The Nile is mentioned in Exodus, and this is more likely the main stem rather than one of the 7 heads in the delta.
The bible doesn't have any Pa- ("the" or "city/house") prefixed.

Our own candidates for Goshen of Genesis & Exodus include Giza/Ergesher, Sokhem, Kahun.
The meaning of the name Goshen/Gosen/Goson / Gesem (Septuagint) / Kessan (Artapanus) is unknown, but it has been proposed to possibly mean "drawing near" or "place of light/plenty/comfort", (and it is also called the "best of the land", and the land of Raamses in Genesis).
Goshen the "best of the land" much better matches the Giza/Gizeh/Er-gesher area rather than the Fakus area. Jacob matches Khufu/Cheops (see our Joseph articles for fuller details proofs), and Herodotus said the shepherd Philitis "lover of righteousness" dwelt at Giza. Josephus said the exodus started from Latopolis (Sokhem) near Sakkara/Memphis.
(Lemesurier's book claimed an alignment of Giza with Bethlehem.)
The tombs on one side of the great pyramid do look as if they could be Hebrews tombs beside Jacob's pyramid.
We have alot more evidences for Hebrews in the Giza area than the orthodox scholars have for Hebrews in the n.e. Delta (they admit they don't have anymuch strong evidences for the Hebrews of the exodus at their sites and in their dynasty).

The Goshen in 'Joshua' is not necessarily the same place. There are plenty of known cases of different places with same/similar names in world history (eg 2 Caerleons in Britain, 2 Blackwaters in Ireland, 2 Salems in Israel, 2 Eidyns in the Pagur, 2 Havilahs in Genesis 10, 2 kingdoms of Israel). This 2nd Goshen is implied to be between Kadesh-Barnea & Gaza & Gibeon in Joshua 10, or between the Negev & Arabah in Joshua 11 (where it is clearly within the boundaries of the conquered promised land of Israel), and/or between Anim & Holon in the hill country in Joshua 15.

 -----

If the references we have mentioned in the text of the "Shishak/Sheshonk" post, and in the "exodus in 19th dyn" posts (so far) are not obvious or good enough then here is a list of alot of the refs mentioned so far in that two:

References/sources:
  Then-contemporary/ancient/medieval:
Holy Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Joshua, Kings, Chronicles, etc)
Paintings in Tomb of Rekhmire (Middle Kingdom)
Pectoral of Mereret (12th dyn)
Amarna Letters (18th dyn)
Merneptah Stele (19th dyn)
Tales of the Magicians
Bubastite Portal (Sheshonk's campaign list in Karnak/Thebes)
El-Arish inscription
Megiddo stone slab inscription of Sheshonk (22nd dyn)
Ipuwer Papyrus (FIP or SIP)
Execration Texts (12th dyn)
Ugaritic texts (before Akhenaten or Merneptah)
Piankhy stele (25th dyn)
Hymn to Aten (18th dyn)
Instructions of Amenmope(t)
Sinaiatic Inscriptions
Manetho 'Aegyptaica'
Plato 'Timaeus' & 'Critias'
Herodotus 'Histories'
Book of Sothis / George Syncellus
Eratosthenes
Apion
Pliny
Pomponius Mela
Flavius Josephus 'Antiquities', 'Against Apion'
Jerome
Book of Jashar
Tacitus
Lysiimachus
Artapanus
Chaeremon
Masoudi
  Modern/medieval:
Isaac Newton
Heinrich Brugsch-Bey 'Egypt Under the Pharaohs'
Werner Keller 'Bible as History'
Peter Clayton 'Chronicle of Pharaohs'
David M Rohl 'Test of Time'
Gerald Massey 'Book of Beginnings'
Ron Wyatt
Person's comment in linkedin Egyptology group
Person's comment in facebook page/group that "Egyptians didn't have slavery".
Wikipedia (Ramses 2, Shishak, Sheshonk 1, Egyptian Chronology, etc)
Alan Millard 'Treasures from Bible Times'
Herman Hoeh's 'Compendium ...'
Peter Sullivan (private correspondence)
Riaan Boysen 'The Moses Puzzle'
Kurt Sethe
James Mavor 'Voyage to Atlantis'
Sean Bambrough / Arthur-Robin
David Down (Adventist courses)
Immanuel Velikovsky 'Ages in/of Chaos'
Stephen Compton 'Exodus Lost'
Jurgen Spanuth 'Atlantis of the North'
J Cooper/Brewers 'Book of Myth & Legend'
LA Waddell 'Makers of Civilisation'
Hancock forum poster
Pavel Olivia
Finklestein
Kathleen Kenyon 'Archaeology in the Holy Land'
Donovan Courville 'Exodus Problem & Its Ramifications'
Peter James 'Centuries of Darkness'
Sabatino Moscati 'World of the Phoenicians'
Arthur Weigall 'A History of the Pharaohs'
David Fasold 'Discovery of Noah's Ark'
Oxford 'Cyclopedic Bible Concordance'
My father's saying he saw documentary mentioning Aramaic in pyramid
Ivar Lissner 'Living Past'
Lemesurier
'Yada Yahweh' forum thread post on word "firstborn".
'Bible & Spade' magazine?
'Bible Archaeology Digest/Illustrated'.
Sir Alan Gardiner
Grant Jeffrey 'Signature of God'
Kenneth A Kitchen 'The Chronology of Ancient Egypt'
Edwin R Thiele
BBC
Greenberg
Some further primary references for some details are given in the cited secondary refs (esp Velikovsky).



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 15-Feb-2019 at 01:44
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2019 at 01:41

Continuing the disproving of the "exodus in 19th dynasty" main pillar of conventional Egyptian-Biblical chronology:

- The Israel stele:

One of the major points of contention in the conventional 19th dynasty exodus theory is that they claim that there is no known mention of Israelites in Palestine/Israel before the known mention of "Israel" in the Merneptah. It is also believed that the Amarna Letters evidence that Canaan was still Canaanite not Israelite, which supposedly means that the Israelites were not yet in Canaan (and so still in Egypt).

Criticisms:

Contrary to widely held belief there are evidences of Hebrews in Egypt and/or Palestine in other dynasties before the 19th dynasty:
Osarsiph invited the "Hyksos" to come back into Egypt in the 19th-20th dynasty (ref Manetho, Josephus).
Some scholars say that the name in the Merneptah is not definitely Israel. The Israel in the stele could be either the United Kingdom of Israel (United Monarchy) or the northern kingdom of Israel (Divided Kingdom). The mention of Israel already in Canaan in the Merneptah Stele is too soon after the supposed exodus in the 19th of the conventional theory (i.e. the exodus can't be so close to the Mernptah stele but must have been some amount of time earlier). Rohl suggested that chariots/horses in the stele may indicate a time of not earlier than Solomon in the bible (since horses were not favoured in the bible until then).
Shalama in the campaign of Ramses 2 may match Jerusalem of Shishak's invasion in Kings/Chronicles.
The "lord of Asel" mentioned in a 19th dynasty text (ref Bey)?
The 'amelut sagaz Mesh' "people of the rebel Mesh" Habiru in the Amarna letters can match the Hebrew Israelites of the time of David.
In the bible Canaan was still somewhat Canaanite during the Judges period between Moses/Joshua (after the 12th dynasty exodus) and David (18th dynasty Amarna period).
Jerusalem is mentioned in the Amarna letters, and maybe also in the 12th dynasty Execration Texts, and in the bible it was not called that until the time of David &/or Solomon?
"Jhw/Yahu (in the land) of the Shoshu" / "Schasu of Yahweh" in list/ring in/at/from the temple of Soleb (Amenhotep 3).
It is said that the name Israel could be mentioned (in Canaan) on Berlin statue pedistal relief 21687 which is dated to about time of Amenhotep 2 (or Ramses 2).
The name Jacob-el in reigns of Tuthmosis & Ramses 2/3.
Sinaiatic "Canaanite" script of ca "1500" bc.
Ancient sources confounded the Hebrews with the Hyksos (who ruled over both Egypt and Canaan/Palestine/Israel), and the exodus with the expulsion of the Hyksos in the early 18th dynasty, implying that the exdous is earlier than the 18th dynasty.
The Hyksos "rebuilt" Avaris (abandoned by earlier occupants? Refs Manetho, Keller.)
The population of Kahun or Lahun seems to have been somewhat/partly foreign or multinational (refs David Down, letters/documents from Kahun/Lahun)?
Babies in coffins under houses found at Kahun/Lahun have been suggested to be the Hebrew babies slain in Exodus 1 (ref David Down)?
Hebrew slaves are maybe seen in the pectoral of Mereret (ref picture in Clayton's 'Chronicle of Pharaohs").
Asher, Menti, Zabulanu, Shechem, and maybe Jerusalem are mentioned in 12th dynasty Execration Texts. Shechem was founded in Jacob's time (in Genesis).
"Increase in Levantine names in the 12th dynasty" (lost ref maybe Clayton or Down?)
Asiatics in the 1st Intermediate Period (ref Clayton's 'Chronicle').
The bible says Hebron and Tanis were founded about the same time. Tanis is known from Old Kingdom times.
An ancient source said the Hebrews were not the King Shepherds (Hyksos) but the Captive Shepherds (ref Gerald Massey). Herodotus said the shepherd Philitis dwelt at Giza in the 4th dynasty. We found that Jacob certainly matches Khufu/Cheops of the 4th dynasty (see our separate posts on this), and Goshen matches Giza/Er-gesher (see the section on Goshen). The 4th dynasty pyramid builders were hated by the Egyptians (ref Herodotus), similar to the later hatred of the Hyksos and modern anti-Semitism (ref Josephus, Velikovsky).
(My father once said he saw/heard a documentary or news item that mentioned Aramaic writing found in the Great Pyramid?)
Imhotep of the 3rd dynasty is implied to have maybe been a foreigner. ("there are numerous indicators that he was not Egyptian". "held in contempt by the workmen". "He was considered an outsider, a foreigner, and a shepherd ... quite unlike themselves." "He was of ruddy complexion, with auburn or red hair." Ref David Fasold).
The Set race of the 2nd dynasty? (Set was god of foreigners, the desert, and red people, and donkeys/asses, and has same name as the Hebrews' ancestor Seth in Genesis.) The 3 Hermes Set, Shu & Thoth in Egyptian match the 3 reincarnations Seth, Moses & Samuel in Jewish (ref Gerald Massey 'Book of Beginnings'), and they seemingly may roughly match the 3 Kingdoms Old, Middle & New of Egyptology?

- "Hebrews/Semites in Egypt, as slaves in the 19th dynasty":

Some orthodox sources correspond the Habiru/Pr(s) labourers who helped to build Pi-ramses in the 19th dynasty with the Hebrew slaves of 'Exodus' (ref Keller), and the "Habiru dropping tools and fleeing" with the exodus (ref Sullivan). They say that Pr(s) is a term for Semites in Egyptian (ref Keller).
Previously, the ancient classical author Manetho similarily connected the Hebrews with the leper followers of Osarsiph in the mid to late 19th dynasty (refs Manetho, Josephus, Massey).

Criticisms:

One critic said to us "the Egyptians never had/practised slavery".

The followers of Osarsiph/Arisu in Manetho's account are called "lepers (and impure)", and were they were rounded-up into Heliopolis or Avaris, and they are not like slaves if i remember correctly?
Manetho and other authors more especially also alternatively confounded the Hebrews with the Hyksos some centuries before Osarsiph. Orthodox scholars contend that the Hebrews entered Egypt during the Hyksos dynasty, and were in Egypt until the of the 19th dynasty when they left Egypt, with the Habiru laboruers of the 19th dynasty matching the Hebrew slaves. As far as i know though, there are no Habiru appearing in the Hyksos dynasty, and no Hyksos in the 19th dynasty (Manetho says Osarsiph invited the Hyksos to come back into Egypt).
If the Habiru of the 19th dynasty can be Hebrews then why can't the Habiru of the Amarna letters (18th dyn)? If the Habiru of the 18th dynasty Amarna letters, who are supposedly "not an ethnic group", can't be Hebrews then why can the Habiru of the 19th dynasty? An ancient source said that Hebrews were not the King Shepherds but the captive shepherds (ref Massey). The Habiru of the 19th-20th dynasty were called Senen "knights" (and Marina/marya "young (warriors)"?) (ref Bey, Massey), which doesn't match the Hebrews of Exodus. Whereas the Amelut sagaz Mesh "people of the rebel Mesh" Habiru "bandits" of the Amarna letters are more like the bedouin shepherd Hebrews of the time of Saul and David before David took Jerusalem. (Compare in the Amarna letters: "I and Abdu-Heba (king of Jerusalem) alone are left to fight the leader of the Habiru .... But behold they have been fighting against me...." Ref Keller. The Habiru/Pr(s) are identified with "Semties" in Keller and Hancock.) Thus the Hebrews/Israelites were already in Canaan/Israel/Palestine in the 18th dyn (Amarna letters) and 19th dyn (Merneptah stele).

Exodus says the Hebrews were forced to make bricks for the cities/buildings. In contrast, the Habiru hauled stones, and pictures of the city of Pi-ramses that i have seen show mainly stone blocks buildings (though some bricks are also mentioned in reports/records).
We place Moses in the 12th dynasty rather than the 19th. Brick buildings are most prominent in the First Intermediate Period and Middle Kingdom (see pictures and descriptions in Clayton's 'Chronicle' and other sources).

There are evidences of Hebrew( slave)s in other dynasties before the 15th to 19th dynasties.
Asiatics in the 1st Intermediate Period (ref Clayton's 'Chronicle').
"Increase in Levantine names in the 12th dynasty" (lost ref maybe Clayton or Down?)
"Multinational" population of Lahun/Kahun (12th dyn)?
Maybe-Hebrew slaves are seen in the pectoral of Mereret of the 12th dynasty (ref picture in Clayton's 'Chronicle').
A painting in the Middle Kingdom tomb of Rekhmire in Beni-Hasan shows light-skinned workmen ("probably Semites") making bricks for the temple of Amun in Thebes, with the words "the rod is in my hand" and "be not idle" (ref Keller 'Bible as History').

- Amarna Letters:

The Amarna letters mention a number of kings of places in Canaan/Israel/Palestine including Jerusalem who going by their names and other details are evidently Canaanites not Hebrews. This is seen by conventional scholars as supposedly implying that the Israelites were not in Canaan yet (but were still in Egypt, fitting with their theory that the Hebrews entered Egypt during the Hyksos 15th dynasty, and left in the 19th dynasty). They say that the Habiru in the letters can't be Hebrews because the Habiru "bandits" are not an ethnic group.

Criticisms:

The bible implies that Canaan was not completely Israelite during the Judges and wars period between Joshua and the time of David taking Jerusalem.

There are a number of names in the Amarna Letters period and Heretic Kings period of the 18th dynasty which are similar to names during the times of David (before and during when he was king). We can not list all the names similarities here, we can only list a few examples, see our other posts/articles on the matches of the period.

Akizzi governor/king of Katna/Qatna/"Hamath" in the Amarna letters may match Achish son of Maoch/Maacah king of Gath (Gittite) & Ziglag (Philistines) of Saul & David's times (though i haven't been able to check the details of the Amarna letter to make sure)?

Agur ben Jakeh "the able-bodied man" of Proverbs 30 may match Akhenaten/Ikhnaton/Khunaton. (Jakeh might mean "despised". Akhenaten was caricatured by non-Atenist Egyptians.)

Tut's ark/chest is similar to the Ark.
Psalm 104 is similar to the Hymn to Aten.
Akhenaten's "monotheism" is similar to Judaism's.
The 'Instruction of Amenmope(t)' is similar to Proverbs.

Vidia/Widia/Yidya of Askelon, or Addaia in Hazati/Azzati/Gaza in Amarna letters 285, 287, 289 might be David at Gath (name corresponded with Hadad by Sayce)?

Ay "(holy) father / father (of god)" may resemble Hadad father of Genubath, or David "beloved, father"?

Aten/Aton is similar to Jakeh/Naki, or Adon(ai) or Nathan.
Aiab/Ayyab (Amarna 256, 364) has been compared with Joab (ref Rohl).

Solomon's name is maybe similar to either Shalmaiati (Amarna letters 155, ref Velikovsky) or Smenkhkare or Horemhab or Suppiluliuma/Sapalulme (18th & 19th dyn, refs Clayton, Bey).

Names similar to Bath-sheba ("daughter seven/oath") and/or the queen (of) Sheba in the Heretic kings period include Hatshepsut, Taduhepa, Giluhepa, Abdi-heba (Amarna letters), Smenkhkare (gender questioned), Ankh-esenpa-aten (six sisters/daughters, ref Clayton), Hor-em-Heb (meaning "jubilation", ref Clayton), Siptah.

Some names in the letters are Hurrian Aryan (Mitanni). The name of the threshing floor of Araunah in the bible is similar to the Aryan name Aruna/Varuna? There is also an Aruna/Aluna in a mid 18th dyn king's records.

Ziklag of David's story maybe resembles Zikar (Amarna) or Sigata (Amarna 76)?

Tahpenes the lady and her sister probably matches either the sisters Nefertiti & Netemmut or the sisters Ankhnespaaten/Ankhesenpaaten & Meraten.

The name of Hor-em-hab who was 'Adon' over the land resembles either Hiram, Solomon, Sheba, Hadad, Genubath, Rehoboam, Jeroboam.

Shalama in campaign list of Ramses 2 (ref Bey, Rohl, Wiki) shortly after the Amarna period may be Jerusalem of Shishak's raid in Kings/Chronicles.

3 years drought/famine/plague of the Amarna period (refs Amarna letters, Velikovsky, BBC) may match with the 3 years famine/drought/plague of David's reign in the bible?

The 'amelut sagaz Mesh' "people of the rebel Mesh" Habiru "bandits" of the Amarna letters (ref Velikovsky) do have some similarities with the Mosaic Hebrews of the time just before David took Jerusalem (ref Rohl). Eg: "I and Abdu-Heba (king of Jerusalem) alone are left to fight the leader of the Habiru .... But behold they have been fighting against me...." (Amarna Letters, ref Keller). (Joshua, Caleb and David fought kings of Jerusalem. Abdi-heba/Aradhepa/Puti-hiba "servant of Heba" might be related to the name Jebus? Bible scholars say that Jerusalem/Salem/Jebus was not called Jerusalem until the time of Solomon?) The Hebrews were shepherds and bedouins having been in the wilderness for 40 years, and were not completely established in the Judges period between Joshua & David.
(The name Habiru might match Abel/Hevel/Habil rather than Hebrew/Heber/Eber/Eber-nari?) Keller and Hancock both say that the Habiru/Pr(s) are considered to be Semites. It is strange that orthodox scholars consider that the Habiru "knights" of the 19th dynasty who "hauled stones" can match the Hebrew slaves, but the Habiru "bandits" of the 18th dynasty can't match the tribal Hebrews of the wars period between Joshua and David.

NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2019 at 20:42

Continuing disproving the "exodus in 19th dynasty" theory of conventional chronologists:

- Horses/chariots:

Chariots &/or horses are mentioned in the stories of Joseph and Moses in Genesis & Exodus in the bible.
Conventional chronology claims that horses &/or chariots are not known in Egypt before the Hyksos "introduced them" to Egypt.
Followers of Wyatt have also said that the exodus chariots wheels found in the gulf of Aqaba supposedly match 18th dynasty wheels and not earlier dyasties ones.
Some also claim that "no evidence of Egyptian cavalry exists from before the 27th dynasty".

Criticisms:

The chariots were all lost in the Red Sea in the Exodus. ("... and all the other chariots of Egypt" in Exodus 14.) This would more likely match before the Hyksos rather than after (ie what evidence of loss of chariots in 19th dyn?)
Some have said that "chariots" could mean the sedan chairs that Egyptian pharaohs were carried in (picture in RA Anderson).
In the 'tales of the magicians' Djedi of the 4th dynasty travelled in a vehicle that sounds similar to Joseph's "chariot".
Herodotus said the chariots/horses were lost in reign of Sesostris (12th dynasty), near in time to Moeris who was "900 yrs" before Amasis II.
The exodus chariots parts have been found in the gulf of Aqaba near Nuweiba (refs include Rene Norbergen, Ron Wyatt, Ross Patterson), and these remains might help date which dynasty.
Rohl said there was a recent find of evidence of horses/chariots a little before the Hyksos?
Ramps in buildings such as Sekhemhet's complex (3rd dyn) and Deir el-Bahri (11th & 18th dyn) are similar to modern ramps for wheel chairs and cars etc (see pictures in Clayton, etc).
Wheel like glyphs in pictures in some earlier dynasties such as the 11th dynasty which look similar to the wheels found in Aqaba (pictures in Clayton).
The Hyksos chariots more probably match the 900 chariots (of iron) of Jabin in Joshua & Judges (especially since Sisera's head wound seemingly starkly matches Seqenenre's. see our post on Sisera for details.)
Genesis 41 (& 46) only mentions 2 chariots, though chapter 50 mentions "chariots and horsemen". Exodus 14 mentions "600 chosen chariots and all the other chariots of Egypt". The Philistines had 30000 chariots in King Saul's time (Bible). Horses were also not favoured in bible until Solomon's times. Shishak came up with "1200 chariots and 60000 horsemen" (Kings/Chronicles). The Hittite king who battled with Ramses 2 had "2500 chariots" (ref Clayton), and Ramses 2 built factories which produced "about 250 chariots in 2 weeks" (ref Wiki). Rohl suggested that chariots/horsemen in the Merneptah Stele imply a date not before Solomon in the bible. 2083 Aperiu or Senen "horsemen or knights" are found in Ramses 3's reign (refs Bey, Massey). So we seem to see an increase of chariots/horses from Joseph to Shishak. The number of chariots/horseman in Exodus would seem to be smaller than the number of chariots/horsemen in Ramses 2's reign (ie does not match)?


- 'Pharaoh'.

The king of Egypt is called "Pharoah" in a number of bible stories including those of Abraham, Joseph, and Moses.
The name/word Pharaoh is supposed to come from Pr/Pr'o/Pr'3/Perao/Peraa/Paruw'ar or Aaperti "(the) (great) house".
Some sources say that the name/word Perao is first used in association with the king in the records of Merneptah (refs Bey, Wiki), which would fit with their 19th dynasty exodus theory.

Criticisms:

The Bible's use of the name/word Pharaoh could be an anchronism, since orthodox scholar believe the bible was written in Neo-Babylonian to Persian times? Otherwise how come they don't also say that Abraham and Joseph can't be before Merneptah?
Other sources say that the name/word Pharaoh is said to be known in Egyptian kings records from time of either the 12th dyn or Tuthmose 3 or Akhenaten or Merneptah or Siamun (ref Wikipedia).
In our own researches we have found that the bibical name Pharaoh or "great house" might possibly come from either:

Hophra/Vaphres/Apries (26th dyn), or
Naphuriya/Huriya (in the Amarna letters of David's times), or
Aaron (meaning either "lofty, exalted, mountaineer" or "(a) light, enlightener" or "an uncertain Egyptian origin", brother of Moses, in the 12th/13th dynasty), or
The word/name pharaoh that is first found in 12th dynasty (Moses times, ref Wiki), or
Herodotus has a king Pheros in the 12th dynasty and/or before the 4th dynasty, or
Chephren/Khafre (of the 4th dyn, whose pyramid name means "the great" (ref Bey), and who matches Ephraim who was called "greater" in Jacob's blessing in Genesis), or
Ufura/Reufu and/or 'Great Pyramid' (4th dyn), or
Sneferu (who heads the 4th dynasty just before Khufu/Jacob, and whose name has been variously spelt Snfrfrw / Snprfw/Snprvw/Snprby/Snprvu/ Snpfv / Snprf/Snfrw/Snprb/Snprv/Snfrv/Snfr(w) / Snpw, or Snaphru/Snef(e)ru, or Sen-nefer, ref Hancock forum poster), or
Peribsen or Perenmaat (2nd dyn), or
Parinbara (in "predynastic" inscription, ref LA Waddell)?

I vaguely remember some source(s) saying that the title pharaoh came from the 1st king of Egypt who had that name? Josephus had Pharaohs until Shishak, similar to Newton had gods until Merneptah, then kings after that.
The name Pirua occurs early in the Peruvian king list (ref Hoeh).
LA Waddell also claimed that Sumerian/Akkadian sources and/or Indus inscriptions (read as Sumerian) or early dynastic Egyptian inscriptions (read as Sumerian) contain a word that matches Pharaoh?
Or the name Pharaoh might be connected with the sun god Phra/Ra/Re whose reign began in the 2nd or 3rd or 4th or 5th dynasty (Raneb, Rahotep, Reufu/Ufura, Redjedef, Sera/Sare, 5th dyn sun kings).

NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2019 at 21:44

(Continuing disproving the "exodus in the 19th dynasty" stance of conventional chronology.)

- Philistines:

One of the supposed supports for the conventional "exodus in the 19th dynasty" theory has been that they identify the Philistines of Saul & David's time with the Peleset Sea Peoples who appear in records of the 19th & 20th dynasty. (The Bible says that the Philistines came from Caphtor at the same time as the Hebrews came out of Egypt, and the Israelites were told to not go by the way of the Philistines in Exodus.)

Criticisms:

The Bible has Philistines in the time of Abraham and Isaac as well, but the orthodox scholars don't say that they can't be before the 19th dynasty.

The biblical "Philistines" could be an anachronism because the Torah was supposed to have been written by Moses (who we locate in the 12th dynasty), and orthodox scholar claim the bible was not written/finished until the Babylonian captivity. The bible itself has "Philistines" at Gerar in the days of Abraham and Isaac, while elsewhere it says that the Philistines came from Caphtor at the same time as the Israelite exodus from Egypt, and Deuteronomy 2 says the Caphtorim came after previous Avvim who were in Philistia.

There are hints of Philistines in Egyptian and other nations' records before the 19th dynasty:

The Philistines of the 19th-20th dynasty are too close to the supposed exodus of the 19th dynasty.
Some have related the Sea Peoples to the Atlanteans. The Atlantis Account maybe implies that the Atlantean sea peoples traveled through Europe and Asia and Libya over a length of time before invading Egypt?
Ashkelon and Yanoam are mentioned in the Merneptah Stele (ref Keller). (Not sure if Yanoam might be Jamnia/Jabneh/Jabneel?)
Qazatha "Gaza" is metioned in a 19th dynasty text (ref Bey page 307).
Thargathazas mentioned in the battle of Kadesh of Ramses 2 is considered to be related to Atargatis who had a temple in Ashkelon (ref Bey).
Hazina/Hazian "Mt Khazzi/Hazzi/Kasion/Casius" is mentioned in 19th dynasty records (ref Bey).
In classical sources the Pelasgians just after the Trojan war in the list of Thalassocracies or "sea powers" (ref Hoeh) might correposnd with the Peleset Sea Peoples who Rohl suggested came just after the Trojan war?
The name Kheta/Hatti/Hittites (18th & 19th dyns) and/or the Kassites (18th dyn) might be related to Gaza and/or Gath/Gittite? Kashtiliash might be related to Goliath? The name of the Hittite town Qazautana (ref Bey) resembles Gaza's?
Hittite records mention a "Taitas/Tette/Da-te-wa/Daitewas/Dait-as/Eudaita/E(h)u-daitas king of land of Palastina/Walastina" which might be connected with King David?

Akizzi governor/king of Katna/Qatna/"Hamath" in the Amarna letters may match Achish son of Maoch/Maacah king of Gath (Gittite) & Ziglag (Philistines) of David's time in the bible. Addaia in Hazati/Azzati/Gaza in Amarna letters 285, 287, 289 might be David at Gath. (In ancient times as also in medieval times, names were often spelled different ways before standardisation.) Ashkelon is also mentioned in the Amarna letters.
As we noted in the section on horses & chariots, the Philistines had 30000 chariots in Saul's time, which may also help pinpoint a date.
Gaza and Joppa mentioned in campaign of Tuthmosis 3 (ref Clayton). (The cities of the Philistines were Gerar, Gaza, Gath/Gittaim, Ekron, Ashkelon, & Ashdod/Azotus, plus Jamnia, & Joppa.)

The shepherd Philitis "lover of righteousness" at Giza in the 4th dyn (ref Herodotus)?

Philistines are mentioned in the bible in the times of Genesis 10, Abraham, Isaac, exodus, Shamgar, Jephthah, Samson, Eli, Samuel, Saul, David, Baasha, Zimri/Asa, Jehoshaphat, Elisha, Jehoram, Uzziah, Ahaz, Hezekiah, Jeremiah, Maccabees, Romans (Palestine), Falasha, PLO. The Peleset Sea Peoples of the 20th dynasty seem to match the Philistines of Jehoshaphat or Jehoram or Uzziah in the bible.

NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2019 at 23:46

(Continuing the disproving of the "exodus in the 19th dynasty" theory of conventional chronologists.)

- Hyksos:

Conventional chronology claims to believe that the biblical Hebrews entered Egypt under Joseph during the Hyksos dynasty, as supposedly evidenced by the Jacob name of a king then, and that they were still in Egypt in the Amarna letters period, and that the Israelites finally left Egypt under Moses during the 19th dynasty.
Ancient authors like Manetho and Apion connected the exodus of the Hebrews with the expulsion of the Hyksos by the early kings of the 18th dynasty.

Criticisms:

The ancient author Manetho contradictingly connected the Hebrews with the Hyksos on the one hand, and with the followers of Osarsiph (19th-20th dyn) on the other hand (ref Josephus).
Modern conventional chronology also contradictingly connectes the Hebrews with the Hyksos and with the 19th dynasty Habiru/Pr(s). As far as i know there are no Habiru/Prs mentioned in the Hyksos dynasty, and no Hyksos mntioned in the 19th dynasty (except for the tablet about "400 years from Hyksos king/god to a 19th dynasty king", and "Osarsiph inviting the Hyksos to come back to Egypt" in Manetho).

There is no proof of any Hebrews in Egypt under the Hyksos. No proof of any Joseph, Potiphera, etc in the Hyksos dynasties, while we have found matches for these persons in the 3rd-4th dynasty.
The Hyksos were kicked out, the Hebrews were only let go reluctantly and then chased.
There are two Jacob names in the Hyksos period (Yaqub-her and Yakobaam) which suggest that Jacob(el) must have been sometime before them both.
The Pharaoh and Egypt in Joseph's story in the bible were not Semitic but Egyptian.
Joseph's famine was global, and the Hyksos dynasty doesn't have any global flavour to it.

The Hyksos period is not the only foreign period in Egypt that could match Hebrews in Egypt: The two other major foreign-like periods are the 4th dynasty "pyramid builders", and the 18th dynasty Heretic Kings and Amarna letters period. An ancient source said that the Hebrews were "not the King Shepherds but the Captive Shepherds" (ref Gerald Massey). Herodotus said that the shepherd Philitis "lover of righteousnes" dwelt at Giza in the 4th dynasty, which matches with our discovery that Jacob matches Khufu/Cheops, and Goshen matches Giza/Er-gesher.

Moses and the exodus match the (6th &) 12th dynasty better than any other dynasty in Egyptian history. The Hyksos period after the 12th dynasty far better roughly matches the Judges period betwen Moses/Joshua and Saul/David, and the Hyksos might match either the Amalekites, or Anakim, or Midianites, or kings of Edom (refs Velikovsky, Rohl, Judges, Hancock forum thread). Sisera's head wounds in Judges seem to surely match Seqenenre's head wounds in the 17th dynasty. Jabin & Sisera may match Apepi & Seqenenre, and the chariots of Jabin fit well with the Hyksos horses/chariots. The 400 years from Hyksos king to a 19th dynasty king in the San Tablet of 400 Years (ref Bey, Massey) better matches the biblical 480 years from Moses to Solomon, rather than the biblical 430 years from Abraham/Joseph to Moses.

- Exodus ("Habiru dropping tools and fleeing") :

Classical scholars connected the biblical Exodus with the exodus of Osarsiph/Arisu during the reign of Amenophis/Merneptah of the 19th-20th dynasty (refs Manetho, Josephus, Massey). Catholic writers like Jerome seem to have followed more or less the same or similar ideas. Modern scholars followed suit, placing the exodus in the 19th dynasty. They say that the exodus was probably a minor affair in Egyptian history and/or was not recorded (ref Millard). Some Egyptologists connect the exodus with "Habiru dropping tools and fleeing" in the 19th dynasty (ref Peter Sullivan). The Amarna letters supposedly imply that Canaan was still Canaanite in the 18th dynasty, while the Israelites are supposedly first mentioned as being in Palestine in the Merneptah Stele of the 19th dynasty.

Criticisms:

Orthodox sources admit that they can find no traces of Moses and the exodus events in their 19th dynasty (ref Alan Millard), except for the "Habiru dropping tools and fleeing". There are no matches for the exodus in timelines of Ramses 2's reign events (ref Clayton, Wikipedia).
The Habiru of the 19th dynasty were senen "knights" and they do not match the Hebrews of 'Exodus' (see separate post later). Though Hebrews left quickly, they were only let go relucantly by being compelled, and they were only later pursued.
The supposed exodus in the reign of Ramses 2 or Merneptah is too close to the mention of Israel in Canaan/Palestine in the Merneptah Stele.
Some scholars say that exodus of Osarsiph during the reign of Amenophis was in the 18th dynasty rather than the 19th-20th dynasty, since the prophet Amenophis son of Papis might match Amenhotep son of Hapu (ref Rian Boysen). Manetho placed it under Amenophis who some say was a ficticious king (ref Josephus) but who matches Merneptah in Manetho's king list, while the exodus of Arisu in historical inscription which matches the details of the Osarsiph exodus story was between to end of the 19th dynasty and start of the 20th dynasty (ref Massey) half a dozen kings after Ramses 2 & Merneptah of the orthodox theory.
Manetho and other classical sources imply a conflation of the Hebrew exodus with the expulsion of the Hyksos some centuries/generations before the Osariph exodus, which implies that the Hebrew exodus was before the 18th dynasty (ref Josephus, Massey). The classical sources list at least 2 or 3 exoduses (ref Josephus, Massey). We locate the exodus at the end of the (?6th and) 12th (and 13th?) dynasty (with Pepi of the Memphite 6th dynasty being contemporary with the Theban 12th dynasty?)

List of possible exodes in Egyptian history:
3rd/4th dyn king Surid was 300 yrs before the "flood" (Masoudi)?
"After the death of Neferkare (Pepy 2) Egyptian history is involved in darkness and confusion...." (6th dyn)
Ipuwer Papyrus events details similar to those of exodus ("FIP or SIP", considered to have been written in 13th dyn & not earlier than 12th dyn, ref Sethe, Velikovsky).
Kahun the pyramid town Sesostris 2 was "abandoned suddenly".
Hyksos "rebuilt" Avaris (ref Manetho, Keller)?
Chariot parts found in gulf of Aqaba nearby Nuweiba, the wheels date to at least the 18th dynasty (ref Wyatt).
1st exode of the Hyksos when expelled by Ahmose/Alisphragmuthosis/Tuthmosis (18th dyn).
Prince Tuthmosis "disappeared under mysterious circumstances" (18th dyn, ref Boysen)?
Fate of Akhenaten unknown?
2nd exode during regin of Horus/Horemhab (ref Manetho, Massey).
"Habiru dropping tools and fleeing" (19th dyn)?
3rd exodus of Osarsiph/Arisu during reign of Amenophis/Merneptah or Setnakht (Manetho).
Exodus in the 7th Olympiad & the same year as Carthage built (Apion)?
Claimed exodus of Bocchoris/Horus in 24th dyn (Lysimachus/Tacitus)?
40 yrs exile (26th dyn, ref Bible prophet, Hoeh).
Exodus of "deserters" in reign of Psammetichus 2 (Herodotus, Hancock) & Jewish temple on Elephantine destroyed end of 5th cent (Hancock).

Some scholars suggest a connection of the exodus plagues etc with the explosion of Thera/Santorini (refs Mavor, Boysen, my own posts) which has an uncertain date (refs Compton, Wikipedia).

Salty mummy / Pharaoh drowned in the Red Sea:
Originally the body of Merneptah was not found and some scholars saw this as possibly confirming he was the pharaoh that drowned in the Red Sea. However, his mummy was later found.
A salty mummy of a 19th dynasty pharaoh (Ramses 2 or Merneptah?) was also thought to be from drowning in the Red Sea, but it was later concluded that it was due to excess salts in the mummification procedure.

Candidates for the pharaoh drowned in the Red Sea in the 6th-13th dynasty period include:
- "Typhon/Set concealed in Serbonis bog/lake/sea".
- "Pepi II's mummy has never been found" (6th dyn). (Though Pepi may be Moses rather than pharaoh.) The 6th dynasty ends with a queen (Nitocris).
- "Khety was driven mad and then eaten by a crocodile" (FIP, ref Clayton)?
- Mentuhotep 3's tomb/sarcophagus never found (11th dyn).
- "Sesostris' mummy never found. (His grave had been ranscaked.)" (Ref Ivar Lissner.) Herodotus says that the chariots/horses were lost in the time of Sesostris (12th dynasty).
- Amenemhet 4 no definitely ascribed/known burial/pyramid (ref Clayton?) (He might be Moses rather than pharaoh though.) The 12th dynasty ends with a queen (Sobeknofru).
- King Shou/Geb/Thom at the whirlpool in the El-Arish inscription (ref Velikovsky).
- "Neferhotep mummy never found" (13th dyn).
- No mummy or coffin has been found for the last Pharaoh of the 13th dynasty, Koncharis.

Candidates for the "first(born)" son of the pharaoh/king include:
- Perhaps compare "who has overcome death" of Khnumhotep inscription (12th dyn, ref Bey)? (It is said that in the original Hebrew the word which is translated "firstborn" is more like first/foremost/chosen/elite rather than eldest child. Ref 'Yada Yahweh' forum thread post.)
- Amenemhet 4 presumed died prematurely (12th dyn, ref Clayton?)
- The 12th dynasty ended with a queen (Sobeknofru).
- "Naferhotep's son did not succeed him on the (vacated) throne", "Neferhotep suceeded by brother not son" (13th dyn).

One source suggested the wounds of Seqenenre of the 17th dynasty as a match for the slain first born. However, it seems that Seqenenre's head wounds match Sisera's head wounds in 'Judges'. (Refs Clayton, Wikipedia.)

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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2019 at 04:04
These are the main reasons why they believe "Shishak is probably (not proven) Sheshonk":

- The name Sheshonk/Sosenq is similar to Shishak/Susakim.
- Sheshonk's campaign list in Karnak/Thebes lists 150/155/156 towns & villages in Israel-Judah/Syria-Palestine/Canaan (including Arad, Hekel Abram, Megiddo, Bethshan, Hapharaim, Gibeon). Sheshonk set up a stone slab in Megiddo with his name & titles inscribed upon it.
- Sheshonk 1 built 2 temples, in Memphis & in Karnak/Thebes. The one in Thebes is described as "the greatest temple area ever constructed by human hands". This could be comparable to Solomon's temple, and/or could have been for housing the taken treasure shields/treasures.
- Sheshonk's son had a gold bracelet, and he (the son) gave gifts of gold  & silver amounting to 200,000 kg / 200 or 373 tons, "much more ... than any other pharaoh records giving". (Gold trinity of Osorkhon II. Gold funerary mask of Sheshonk II.)
They claim that "the treasures taken by Shishak are also highly unlikely" and "should probably be seen as  a theological construct rather than as historical references" (refs Wiki, Finkelstein).
- The name of king Zerah, who comes not longer after Shishak in the biblical account, supposedly may match that of Osorkhon who comes shortly after Sheshonk in the same dynasty.
- Shishak came out of Egypt with Lubim(s). Sheshonk was the founder of the 22nd dynasty which was Libyan/Bubastite/Tanite.
- The orthodox ascribed supposed date of 22nd dynasty supposedly matches the biblical date of Shishak (of Thiele's).
- Supposedly fits in sequence with other preceeding and suceeding orthodox/conventional Egypt-Bible matches.
- Claims of "no evidence of Egyptian cavalry exists from before the 27th dynasty".
- "the numbers of the Egyptian soliders given in Chronicles can be safely igored as impossible on Egyptological grounds", or are exagerated by a factor of 10, and are "logistically impossible" .

You failed to mention the MAIN reason why "orthodox" chronology matches Shishak to Shoshenq.   Since we have a year-by-year absolute chronology for the Assyrian kings via the Assyrian King List (AKL) and the Assyrian Eponym List (AEL) we can check it against other chronological documentation from both biblical and Egyptian inscriptions and Manetho.

The Assyrian Evidence:

The Assyrian Eponym List gives the year-by-year list of named years for all Assyrian kings between 911 and 649 BC.   The anchor point of this list is the observation of a solar eclipse from the eponymity of Bur-Sagale which is dated to 763 BC which was the 9th year of the Assyrian king Ashur-Dan III.   Since we do have all the eponyms for all the years of his predecessors up to 911 BC we can, with abolute certainty synchronize certain years with the mention of a few Israelite kings in the dated Assyrian inscriptions.   Hence, Ahab, king of Israel, was mentioned in 853 BC in the 6th year of Shalmaneser III (Kurkh Monolith inscription) and Jehu in 841 BC, the 18th year of the same Assyrian king (Black Obelisk inscription).   This would total 13 years between the mention of the two Israelite kings.

The Biblical data is the following:

Ahab reigned 22 years
Ahaziah reigned 2 years
Joram reigned 12 years
Jehu reigned 28 years

Synchronism between Assyrian inscriptions and Bible:

The interval between the reigns of Ahab and Jehu is 14 years (Ahaziah's 2 years plus Joram's 12 years).  These can fit into the Assyrian total of 13 years with the following:

Ahab and confederates "defeated" in Battle of Qarqar - Shalmaneser, year 6, 853 BC
Ahab succeeded by Ahaziah
Ahaziah, year 2 succeeded by Joram                         - Shalmaneser, year 7, 852 BC
Joram, year 2                                                          - Shalmaneser, year 8, 851 BC
Joram, year 3                                                          - Shalmaneser, year 9, 850 BC
Joram, year 4                                                          - Shalmaneser, year 10, 849 BC
Joram, year 5                                                          - Shalmaneser, year 11, 848 BC
Joram, year 6                                                          - Shalmaneser, year 12, 847 BC
Joram, year 7                                                          - Shalmaneser, year 13, 846 BC
Joram, year 8                                                          - Shalmaneser, year 14, 845 BC
Joram, year 9                                                          - Shalmaneser, year 15, 844 BC
Joram, year 10                                                        - Shalmaneser, year 16, 843 BC
Joram, year 11                                                        - Shalmaneser, year 17, 842 BC
Joram, year 12, succeeded by Jehu                           - Shalmaneser, year 18, 841 BC
Jehu offers tribute to Shalmaneser

This synchronism which dates the death of Ahab to 853 BC can then be built upon with the following biblical data:

Ahab, 874-853 BC (22 years) <--- Omri, 885-874 BC (12 years) <--- Zimri, 885 BC (7 days) <--- Elah 886-885 BC (2 years) <--- Baasha 909-886 BC (24 years) <--- Nadab 910-909 BC (2 years) <--- Jeroboam I 931-910 BC (22 years)

Jeroboam I rebelled against Rehoboam soon after the latter became king, thereby dividing the kingdom into two.   Hence, Rehoboam began his reign in the same year, c. 931 BC.

In the 5th year of Rehoboam, the Egyptian king Shishak invaded Judah and sacked Jerusalem, c. 926 BC.   So we can pin Shishak to this year.

The Egyptian evidence:

The following are the data sets scholars use to create the chronology of Egyptian kings of the 22nd Dynasty.  (the most ancient on top to the most recent at the bottom)

Shoshenq I - highest known year 21 (inscriptions). 
                   Length of reign 21 years (Manetho)
                   scholars give him 21 years
Osorkon I  - highest known year 35 (writing on a mummy bandage).    
                   Length of reign 15 years (Manetho)(Book of Sothis)
                   scholars give him 35 years
Shoshenq II - highest known year 3/5 (inscriptions).
                   One of Manetho's 3 unnamed kings totaling 25 years
                   scholars give him 3 to 5 years
Takeloth II - highest known year 14 (inscriptions).
                   Length of reign 13 years (Manetho)(Book of Sothis)
                  scholars give him 13 or 14 years
Osorkon II - highest known year 30 (inscriptions). 
                  One of Manetho's 3 other unnamed kings totaling 42 years
                  scholars give him between 30 and 35 years
Shoshenq III - highest known year 39
                  not mentioned in Manetho
                  scholars give him 39 years
Shoshenq IV - highest known year 10.  An Apis bull installed in year 28 of Shoshenq III and died
                  in year 2 of successor Pami which lived 26 years yields a reign of 13 years
                  not mentioned in Manetho
                  scholars give him 13 years
Pami         - highest known year 8
                  not mentioned in Manetho
                  scholars give him 8 years
Shoshenq V - highest known year 37 or 38
                  not mentioned in Manetho
                  scholars give him 37 or 38 years
Osorkon IV - no known inscriptions with regnal years
                  attested from 722 to 716 BC (Assyrian inscriptions)(Bible)
                  not mentioned in Manetho
                  scholars give him various lengths of reign

The accumulated known regnal data totals between 199 and 208 years for the dynasty.  The last known date of the last king of the dynasty is 716 BC.   These minimum totals fit into the time period between 926 (5th year of Rehoboam of Judah) and 716 BC (5th year of Sargon II of Assyria).   Shoshenq I can be matched with the Shishak of the Bible.

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2019 at 02:17

Sheshonk supposedly "can/can't" be matched with Shishak/19th for some reasons, but also definitely can't/can be matched with 22nd/19th dyn for equal or more reasons of ours.

0 Egypt .......| Bible .................................| Assyria
1 ............... - Shishak/Rehoboam/Jeroboam - ...
2 ............... -  Ahab ............................... - Shalmaneser 3
3 ............... - Jehu ................................. - Shalmaneser 3
4 Osorkhon 4 - ........................................ - Sargon 2

horizontal:

There is no confirmation proof match between Egyptian and biblical for 1 (except theoretical problematic "Shishak = Sheshonk"), 2, 3 and 4.

There is no conformation proof match between Biblical and Assyrian for 1 (except vertical calculations).

There is no conformation proof match between the Egyptian and Assyrian for 1-3 (except vertical calculations).

The Ahab & or Jehu synchronism is admitted to not be totally certain.

vertical:

There is no confirmation proof of vertical calculation for Egyptian 1-3.

There is no confirmation proof of vertical calculation for Assyrian 1.

It all depends on the Assyrian and/or Egyptian king list(s) being reliable accurate truthful literal consecutive lists.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 12-Jul-2019 at 16:28
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2019 at 22:50
Sheshonk supposedly "can/can't" be matched with Shishak/19th for some reasons, but also definitely can't/can be matched with 22nd/19th dyn for equal or more reasons of ours.

I've already given the chronological data from 3 sources showing that Sheshonq can be matched with Shishak.  Therefore, saying that Sheshonq "definitely can't/can be matched" either questions that data or ignores that data.

0 Egypt .......| Bible .................................| Assyria
1 ............... - Shishak/Rehoboam/Jeroboam - ...
2 ............... -  Ahab ............................... - Shalmaneser 3
3 ............... - Jehu ................................. - Shalmaneser 3
4 Osorkhon 4 - ........................................ - Sargon 2

horizontal:

There is no confirmation proof match between Egyptian and biblical for 1 (except theoretical problematic "Shishak = Sheshonk"), 2, 3 and 4.

The Egyptian inscriptional data for the 22nd does shows that all the chronological data can fit into the period between Shishak and Osorkon IV.

There is no conformation proof match between Biblical and Assyrian for 1 (except vertical calculations).

True, it is all math.   We add up the reigns of the kings of Israel from a baseline of 853 BC for the death of Ahab to get the first year of Jeroboam I and Rehoboam, and then minus 5 years to arrive at the year Shishak sacked Jerusalem.  If this is unacceptable, then the biblical data is unacceptable.

vertical:

There is no confirmation proof of vertical calculation for Egyptian 1-3.

True, we don't have synchronisms between specific Assyrian and Egyptian rulers until we get to Osorkon IV of Egypt and Sargon II of Assyria.   But, since we DO know that the 22nd Dynasty was contemporary with the rulers of the Neo-Assyrian Period, it would be counter-intuitive to reject the Egyptian chronological data which does show at least two centuries of contemporaneity with Assyrian rulers down to Sargon II.  If you reject the contemporaneity of the 22nd Dynasty with the Assyrian kings down to Sargon II, I want to know, why?

There is no confirmation proof of vertical calculation for Assyrian 1.

True, but again, see above.

It all depends on the Assyrian and/or Egyptian king list(s) being reliable accurate truthful literal consecutive lists.

The Egypian data is incomplete.   The data from the extracts of Manetho can conflict with the Egyptian inscriptions and writings, but at least the chronological data from the inscriptions and Manetho (where they can agree) can be used to create a viable chronology.   The Assyrian inscriptional evidence is so detailed, that we have a year-by-year list of the year-names of nearly all Assyrian kings of the 1st millennium BC in addition to the total years of the reigns of the Assyrian kings.  Do you reject the Assyrian King Lists and Assyrian Eponym Lists as being unreliable, inaccurate, and untruthful?  If so, why?


Edited by Sharrukin - 12-Jul-2019 at 22:57
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2019 at 20:48

Thanks Sharrukin. The reason why i "reject/ignore" the other sides one claimed counter-reason is because i am sure that their chronology doesn't correctly match the biblical as regards horizontal matches and vertical dates. The Egyptian and Mesopotamian are too long/old and/or biblical too short/low/late. I am sure that Shishak doesn't match Sheshonk as regards various horizontal matches/mismatches reasons between the two, and because of the vertical dates and sequential horizontal matches before/after them. I have some stark horizontal matches/synchronisms between some earlier biblical and Egyptian dynasties which also makes me certain my matches are right and conventional are wrong. There are reasons why Shishak doesn't/can't match Sheshonk regardless of the one calculations reason why he "can". (I won't repeat them i already gave them in the original post article on Shishak you first replied/commented on. They include the campaign lists don't match, what about the -n- in Sheshonk. Zerah def doesn't match Osorkhon, 22nd dyn has connections with Phoenician kings and Assyrian and princes of Zoan, etc.) I do question the modern conventional ascribed dates for the Egyptian dynasties and the Assyrian king list/lists. The TIP is an uncertain period similar to the SIP and the FIP. I don't have the organized resources and notes and knowledge to find exactly where the problem is in the claimed one vertical calculations or that one horizontal base synchronism. Manetho is the only main kinglists source for dynasties after the 19th dynasty and he is "not an authority" if "Herodotus and Josephus etc aren't". I have already said and shown with examples why the AKL seems suspect to me, from which i think there were double kingships or overlaps/parallels (kings/dynasties) or something.
Could Shilkanni be Osorkon 0 or 1 or 2 or 3 instead?

Eponnym lists have some questions. But i don't know enough about them having concentrated on other sources and other matches. Quote "Many copies of these lists have been found, with certain ambiguities. There are sometimes too many or few limmū for the length of a king's reign, and sometimes the different versions of the eponym list disagree on a limmu, for example in the Mari Eponym Chronicle. There is now an Assyrian Revised Eponym List which attempts to resolve some of these issues."

How many Assyrian King Lists are there? What dynasties/stretches (dyns/kings not dates) do they cover? (I know one that covers from Ilushuma/Erisum to Ashurbanipal.)



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 13-Jul-2019 at 20:57
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2019 at 01:28
Thanks Sharrukin. The reason why i "reject/ignore" the other sides one claimed counter-reason is because i am sure that their chronology doesn't correctly match the biblical as regards horizontal matches and vertical dates. The Egyptian and Mesopotamian are too long/old and/or biblical too short/low/late.

But how do you know that the Egyptian and Mesopotamian are too long/old and/or biblical too short/low/late.?   It is all this data which establishes the chronology of the 1st milennium BC. All chronologies are based on regnal data and synchronisms.    Without that data, ANYONE can use their imaginations to create an historical narrative to fit their ideas.

I am sure that Shishak doesn't match Sheshonk as regards various horizontal matches/mismatches reasons between the two, and because of the vertical dates and sequential horizontal matches before/after them.

Well, as I've listed earlier, the combined known regnal data of the kings of the 22nd dynasty fits the time between Shishak and Osorkon IV.

I have some stark horizontal matches/synchronisms between some earlier biblical and Egyptian dynasties which also makes me certain my matches are right and conventional are wrong. There are reasons why Shishak doesn't/can't match Sheshonk regardless of the one calculations reason why he "can". (I won't repeat them i already gave them in the original post article on Shishak you first replied/commented on.

And here lays the fundamental difference between you and conventional chronological reconstruction.   What you consider "stark horizontal matches/synchronisms" are very unconvincing to the rest of us.   I've already pointed out most of the weaknesses of your matches/synchronisms in other threads.   For most people, they are just assumptions with nothing connecting them.   It takes a huge stretch of the imagination to try to believe them.

They include the campaign lists don't match,

We don't know if they completely don't match.   The Sheshonq campaign inscription has a lot of missing placenames which can shed more light into a wider area of his campaign.   Conversely, alternative identifications of Shishak with other Egyptian kings are even more unconvincing.   

what about the -n- in Sheshonk.

A fairly minor point.   Again the alternatives of matching Shishak with such rulers as Ramses II or one of the Sesostris kings puts far too much strain in the inscriptional record.   For any attempt to match Shishak with these kings invites way too many valid objections.

Zerah def doesn't match Osorkhon,

Zerah is considered an enigmatic figure.  There has been an attempt to match Zerah with Osorkhon II because of an alliance with Syro-Palestinian kingdoms against the Assyrians, but the chronological placement of Osorkon with Asa, who defeated Zerah don't match.   Zerah wasn't based in Egypt and the biblical text doesn't call him "king".   Therefore he isn't given any matches with Egyptian kings.

22nd dyn has connections with Phoenician kings and Assyrian and princes of Zoan, etc.) I do question the modern conventional ascribed dates for the Egyptian dynasties and the Assyrian king list/lists.

The 22nd dynasty has contemporaneity with Phoenician states and so does Judah and Israel, so I don't see why this is a factor to exclude Shoshenq with Shishak.  The same with Zoan.   Zoan (otherwise known as Tanis) was a center during the 22nd dynasty, so again I see nothing here to exclude Shoshenq with Shishak.


The TIP is an uncertain period similar to the SIP and the FIP. I don't have the organized resources and notes and knowledge to find exactly where the problem is in the claimed one vertical calculations or that one horizontal base synchronism.

Somewhat true.   FIP has some chronological data but not enough to really give a definite length of time to bridge the gap between OK and MK.  SIP is even worse.   There is NO chronological which to bridge the gap between MK and NK.  However we have a lot of chronological regnal data for TIP to bridge the gap between Osorkon IV and NK.   This data shouldn't be ignored.

Manetho is the only main kinglists source for dynasties after the 19th dynasty and he is "not an authority" if "Herodotus and Josephus etc aren't".

Manetho, unlike Herodotus and Josephus was an Egyptian priest and therefore could translate extant Egyptian source material into Greek.   The real problem with Manetho is that the extracts taken by later authors from his Aegyptaica are inconsistant and at times incomplete.   In addition, his totals of lengths of reign don't match kinglists and other inscriptions a thousand years earlier than him.   Nevertheless, since he had access to manuscripts (which the others didn't have - Josephus refers to him) where he matches the inscriptional data and with Turin Canon, Royal Annals, South Saqqara Stone, etc. he can still be used as a source.

I have already said and shown with examples why the AKL seems suspect to me, from which i think there were double kingships or overlaps/parallels (kings/dynasties) or something.

Thus far, all attempts to discredit the AKL, especially when it is supported by the Assyrian Eponym List, and the Babylonian King List has been answered rather convincingly.   Rohl completely ignores AEL, and Tetly tried to convince us that it is missing eponyms, but they had been met with the reaffirmation of the AEL by Assyriologists, which they are NOT.  

Could Shilkanni be Osorkon 0 or 1 or 2 or 3 instead?

Doubtful.  Remember that Shilkanni was contemporary with Sargon II.   Later on in Sargon II's reign,  Shebitku the Kushite king booted out a fugitive Phoenician ruler to the Assyrian king.   This means that the Libyan kings of Egypt were coming to an end just before the Kushites took over.  There is no way to telescope the reigns of the other Osorkon's to fit into such a brief time period.

Eponnym lists have some questions. But i don't know enough about them having concentrated on other sources and other matches. Quote "Many copies of these lists have been found, with certain ambiguities. There are sometimes too many or few limmū for the length of a king's reign, and sometimes the different versions of the eponym list disagree on a limmu, for example in the Mari Eponym Chronicle. There is now an Assyrian Revised Eponym List which attempts to resolve some of these issues."

In the past 30 to 40 years, archeologists had recovered lists of eponyms, especially for the Middle Assyrian and Old Assyrian periods, including the Kultepe Eponym List (KEL) and the Mari Eponym Chronicle (MEC) which resulted in the Revised Eponym List (REL).   The REL has greatyly enhanced our understanding of the chronology of the Old Assyrian/Old Babylonian period to the point that we no longer have to just depend on the Venus Tablets for astronomical observations, but also other astronomical observations in this early period including solar eclipses, etc.  

With the recovery of eponyms of the Middle Assyrian period we can how know more precise regnal lengths of Assyrian rulers which bolster their apparent chronological positions already known for the last 50 years.  One of the problems of the Middle Assyrian chronology was that one ruler was given 3 years of reign in one AKL, while given 13 years of reign in another.   We now know that this ruler ruled 13 years because we now have all his eponyms!!!

Again, the eponym lists match the regnal data of the Assyrian kinglists especially in the first millennium BC.  

How many Assyrian King Lists are there?

There are three redactions of the AKL.   The documents are called Khorsabad Assyrian King List (KhAKL), Nassouhi Assyrian King List (NAKL) and Seventh Day Adventist Assyrian King List (SDAS)   The reason why they are called redactions is because each list didn't come from the other, but rather that they all came from an even old original.  Opponents of their reliability point to the omittion of one king in one list and the difference of one regnal length in another list.   However, the AKL don't exist in a vaccuum.   Since we also have inscriptional data including the lists of eponyms and the contemporary synchronism supplied by the Babylonian kinglists we do have a more robust chronology for the Middle Assyrian chronology.   Studies by Yagil Bloch in the last decade for Middle Assyrian chronology do have serious implications to even the chronology of the Hittites and the Egyptian 18th and 19th dynasties.

What dynasties/stretches (dyns/kings not dates) do they cover? (I know one that covers from Ilushuma/Erisum to Ashurbanipal.)

All the AKLs begin with the "reign" of Tudija.  However the earliest kings of Assyria are not given lengths of reign.   The lists give headers to each group of kings:

"Kings who lived in tents" - 17 kings - no regnal data
"Kings who were ancestors"  - 10 kings - no regnal data
"Kings named on bricks but whose eponyms are unknown" - 6 kings 

The rest of the kings have no header but have regnal lengths of reign beginning with 

Erishu I.   Each AKL ends with different kings.   The SDAS ends with Shalmaneser IV, the KhAKL ends with Ashur-nerari V, and the NAKL (the oldest ends with Tiglathpileser II.

The AKLs aren't divided by "dynasties", however they could be divided into families due to the mention of each king's father, hence:

The first 17 kings "who lived in tents" aren't given family affilations but are sometimes called
the "Tudija Dynasty"

The next 10 kings "whose fathers are known" are descended from the previous and thus are called the "Ushpia Dynasty"

The next two kings aren't given famililal affiliation

The so-called Puzur-Ashur Dynasty contains 9 kings.  The first three don't have lengths of reign but the rest of the "dynasty" does

The Shamshi-Adad dynasty includes 3 kings with lengths of reign

A group of 7 usurpers with a combined length of a reign

The "Dynasty of Adasi", the longest lasting had 60 kings

One list ends with the beginning of the "dynasty of Tiglathpileser"

Another list includes the "dynasty of Tiglathpileser" with 2 kings ends with the beginning of the "dynasty of Sargon"
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2019 at 02:49

I am not able to finish this as i am and have always been majorly disadvantaged/handicapped and lack the organised resources, while elite are advantaged and not handicapped.
I have confirmed Assyrian regnal years seem to be pairs sometimes triples by maths analysis.

(Can you/they do same for before/above "Sheshonk/Shishak", down from previous to "Sheshonk/Shishak"? Not just below/under up from later? From a synchronism between two if not all three?)



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 15-Jul-2019 at 22:59
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2019 at 00:55
I am not able to finish this as i am and have always been majorly disadvantaged/handicapped and lack the organised resources, while elite are advantaged and not handicapped.

Oh, please, A-R, you had gone on a full campaign to try to discredit the established chronology for about a decade, now.   You used this thread on an exhaustive full tirade against it.

A-R, in another thread when I asked you if you accept the Assyrian chronology back to 911 BC, you said "yes".  That chronology is based on the Assyrian Eponym Canon and the AKL.    I thought, with such agreement, we had a foundation to work with, but no, instead you worked out your "chronology" without any reference to it.   That canon had allowed scholars to work out the Israelite/Samarian chronology back to king Saul as well as to pin Shishak.

I have confirmed Assyrian regnal years seem to be pairs sometimes triples by maths analysis.

There had been many attempts to debunk established chronologies by "mathematical analysis".   The most recent one, to date, was that by Fomenko which had been roundly destroyed on analysis.  His "new chronology" is considered pseudoscience and pseudohistory.  

The main reason why any "mathematical analysis" would fail is because Assyrian regnal data isn't based on numbers, it is based on names.   Each year is named after an official (the eponym) of which there is NO repeating.   The numbers are then based on the total of eponyms in the reign of a king.   

Therefore, whatever "pairs" and "triples" are assumed, are just that.    Some assume that just because Assyrian names of kings re-occur within the AKL, this is evidence of duplication.   How many "Louises" reigned over France?  How many "Georges" reigned over Britain?   Nobody questions these.  We know that Assyrian kings with the same names existed because they left inscriptions.  We can usually tell them apart because their inscriptions begin with a brief genealogy unique to each king.

(Can you/they do same for before/above "Sheshonk/Shishak", down from previous to "Sheshonk/Shishak"? Not just below/under up from later? From a synchronism between two if not all three?)

I'm not quite sure what you are asking, but I'll venture a response.   There is nothing in the Egyptian chronology, that we know of, that compares with the Assyrian Eponym Canon.   We have, on the other hand, an embarrasing amount of astronomical data in the inscriptions which can potentially date Egyptian events on a monthly basis (even to the point at arriving at how soon one Egyptian king began reigning after the death of his predecessor) but because such observations involved mostly observations of the moon, these events could be dated to more than one year each.   

The Egyptian chronology is somewhat fragmented and thus dependent on the Assyrian and biblical chronological data.   Where we can pin a date of an Israelite king from the Assyrian chronology, we can add the reigns of the Israelite kings back to Rehoboam and Shishak which comes to about 926 BC.   We can date Shishak's last successor Osorkon IV to 716 BC based on an eponym of Sargon II.  We thus, despite incomplete information, can then date the Egyptian rulers in-between with the known Egyptian regnal data from their inscriptions and Manetho and arrive at a viable chronology for Dynasty 22.

Because the change of regime between the Libyan Dynasty 22 and Kushite Dynasty 25 occurred during the reign of Sargon II, we can account for all the Kushite kings down to 664 BC when Sargon's third successor drove out the last Kushite pharoah.

For the period prior to Shishak we have the synchronisms of Ramses II with Assyrian and Babylonian kings and before this with synchronisms between Amenophis III and IV with Assyrian and Babylonian kings.   We can then account for the kings from Ramses II to Shoshenk, with a lot of chronological data from the inscriptions and Manetho.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2019 at 23:37
Originally posted by Sharrukin

Oh, please, A-R, you had gone on a full campaign to try to discredit the established chronology for about a decade, now.   You used this thread on an exhaustive full tirade against it.


I will not respond to dirty rotten llying tactics unfairly untruly falsely making me out to be all wrong/bad/dumb. I'm not wasting anymore time as you/they ("we") always unfairly only accept some things and reject or don't accept some things. I have made heaps of progress in "a decade" and just because i can't answer absolutely everything yet doesn't mean i am not disadvantaged/handicapped (by fluoridation, socio-economic, situation, location, education, health, time, etc). You and they/others all never admit anything i do is ever good enough or right only ever always unfairly trying to make me look all wrong/dumb. Thats why i get so mad you/they only negative making a fool of me and never balance with positive (and not just minor). There are manythings wrong or weak about the orthodox/conventional chronology which you/they ignore, you just claim yours is all right and others are all wrong only because of only one or few vertical calculation reasons based overtrustingly on Assyrian/Egyptian lists. Eponyms i don't know enough about but i know the modern understanding of them is not infallible. Maybe they were not all consecutive one eponym a year. I wasn't referring to kings names but to the regnal years. Prove Sheshonk/"Shishak" is 480 years from "Moses in Ramses 2's time".

NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2019 at 23:57
I will not respond to dirty rotten llying tactics unfairly untruly falsely making me out to be all wrong/bad/dumb. I'm not wasting anymore time as you/they ("we") always unfairly only accept some things and reject or don't accept some things.

I will ignore all your innuendos against current scholarship as well.   

I have made heaps of progress in "a decade" and just because i can't answer absolutely everything yet doesn't mean i am not disadvantaged/handicapped (by fluoridation, socio-economic, situation, location, education, health, time, etc).

Just to make things clear, I claim no special knowledge or expertise in the field of chronology.   I just do a lot of reading to gain understanding as to how modern scholarship arrives at chronology as we currently understand it.

You and they/others all never admit anything i do is ever good enough or right only ever always unfairly trying to make me look all wrong/dumb. Thats why i get so mad you/they only negative making a fool of me and never balance with positive (and not just minor). There are manythings wrong or weak about the orthodox/conventional chronology which you/they ignore, you just claim yours is all right and others are all wrong only because of only one or few vertical calculation reasons based overtrustingly on Assyrian/Egyptian lists.

Neither modern scholarship nor I claim that the knowledge of creating chronology is perfect.   The sources for chronology are not complete.   There are breaks in both Egyptian and Mesopotamian chronology which are "filled in" with guesses which are helped by some synchronisms as well as with astronomical observations to "connect" the gaps.   However when we do have a wealth of inscriptional evidence for chronology, these simply cannot be dismissed or ignored.   They are evidence.

Eponyms i don't know enough about but i know the modern understanding of them is not infallible. Maybe they were not all consecutive one eponym a year.

The Assyrian Eponym Canon forms a backbone for the chronology of the earlier 1st millennium BC.  I think that a study of it will give you an understanding and a appreciation of the nature of it for chronology studies.   What I will do in the Assyrian King List Thread is to specify the eponyms and the reasons for their placement in specific years in the reign of the Assyrian kings.

[quote]I wasn't referring to kings names but to the regnal years.[/quote]

I stand corrected.   But the regnal lengths aren't based upon some magic number.    The underpinning of the regnal lengths were the eponyms.   The Assyrians counted the eponyms (each representing a year) to come up with the total of the length of reign.

Prove Sheshonk/"Shishak" is 480 years from "Moses in Ramses 2's time".

I think you meant prove the Exodus is 480 years before the Temple.  Well, virtually all scholarship agrees that the chronological data mentioned in the books associated with the period of the Judges to the reign of Solomon don't support it.   In fact, if you take all of the chronological data, you arrive a figure above 600 years.  What some biblical scholars therefore do is to place several events during the period of the judges and early kingdom as contemporary events to "fit" into the 480 year period.  There are no other chronological numbers mentioned in the Bible based on a "year of the Exodus" era.  The "480 years" therefore must exist in a vacuum.  This is why some scholars regard the "480" as more of a code rather than a literal figure, based on the number 40 which reoccurs frequently in scripture.        


Edited by Sharrukin - 18-Jul-2019 at 00:01
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2019 at 00:26
Originally posted by Sharrukin


Prove Sheshonk/"Shishak" is 480 years from "Moses in Ramses 2's time".

I think you meant prove the Exodus is 480 years before the Temple.  Well, virtually all scholarship agrees that the chronological data mentioned in the books associated with the period of the Judges to the reign of Solomon don't support it.   In fact, if you take all of the chronological data, you arrive a figure above 600 years.  What some biblical scholars therefore do is to place several events during the period of the judges and early kingdom as contemporary events to "fit" into the 480 year period.  There are no other chronological numbers mentioned in the Bible based on a "year of the Exodus" era.  The "480 years" therefore must exist in a vacuum.  This is why some scholars regard the "480" as more of a code rather than a literal figure, based on the number 40 which reoccurs frequently in scripture.        


I meant Moses 480 yrs before Sheshonk falls before Amarna letters in conventional Egyptian chronology's own asserted ascribed dates. I don't agree that the biblical 480 yrs is not literal. There were 300 yrs from Moses to Jephthah. Not fair to say biblical is unreliable while Egyptian and Assyrian king lists and modern scholars are infallible/superior. Shishak must come 480 years after Moses, so in my view it is evidence their chronology is wrong since it doesn't fit between Amarna and Sheshonk. 945 + 480 = 1425 bc. Amarna "1350-1334". Its too conveninent to dismiss 480 as not literal (and it is not proven it is not literal). Of course it is unproven deadlock on this point unless either side can prove it either way, but it is a valid more-than-just-possible criticism of their scheme.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 18-Jul-2019 at 00:35
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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