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Wonders of Britain

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Wonders of Britain
    Posted: 07-Jun-2018 at 07:51

The Wonders of Britain are a series of wonders of the island of Britain written by "Nennius" the author of the Historia Britonum. They are similar to the 7 wonders of the ancient world except that they tend to be like more of a geographical/natural nature. People who need/want to know more detailed introductory information about the Wonders can see this site http://www.wondersofbritain.org/ .

A few years ago we discovered that the 9 battle sites of the 12 battles of "(King) Arthur) give in the Historia Britonum of "Nennius" seem to match the 9 Saxon Shore sites of the Notita Dignitatum from Great Yarmouth (Norfolk) to Portsmouth (Hampshire). Some months or year or so later we also accidentally found that a number of the Wonders of Britain also seem to match the same sites. In this thread we will post some of the evidences for some of our Wonders sites. People are free to discuss any of our candidates/matches/evidences or any other locations candidates.

The 1st Wonder Loch Lumonoy.

"Concerning/Of the great/large lake/llyn Lummonu/Llumonwy, which is called in English Loch Leuen/Leven, in the region/area of the Picts."
(- Heading attached first to Manuscript L, noted by Watkins, 13th century.)

"The 1st wonder (of the island of Britain) is (the) loch/lake/pool/stagnum/llyn Lumonoy ;/. In it/there are 60 islands (, and men dwell/live there,) and 60 rocks/cliffs in/encircle it, (andthereis/with an eagle’s nest on each rock/cliff. There are) also/and 60 rivers/streams flow(ing) into it/thatplace (,) and (nothing goes) out of it/there (to the sea except) 1 river/stream, that/which is (called) (the) Leamain/Lenin/Levin."
(- 'Historia Britonum' of "Nennius".)

"In Albany, in the area of Moray, not very far from Alclud, is Loch Lomond, with 40 islands, and 60 streams feeding it (but only 1 stream flowing out), and its 60 rocks on which 60 eagles nest. These eagles gather once a year and their cries foretell any great events about to occur. .... This affair being concluded, Hoel had the curiosity to view the situation of the lake, and wondered to find the number of the rivers, islands, rocks, and eagles’ nests, so exactly correspond: and while he was reflecting upon it as something that appeared miraculous...."
(- HRB of Geoff. of Monmouth.)

The location candidate of conventional/orthodox scholars is Loch Lomond in the west of Scotland.
It is our own opinion that this wonder seems to match the Lympne/Romney are in south west Kent and/or east Sussex, which is also where we locate the Tribruit battle site of Arthur of the H.B. & Pa Gur.
Below we give our the evidences for the wonder matching our site (and some evidences against the rival orthodox site).


Names match:
For the orthodox candidate Loch Lomond in Scotland, while it is true that the loch Lumonoy name of this Wonder can match the place name Lomond in Scotland, some sources say that there is no record of the use of the name 'Loch Lomond' in sources earlier than the 14th century? Loch Lomond was "formerly called Lyncalidor". Some scholars think that Lomond/Lemanis is related to Llwyfein & Llwyfenyd in Welsh poetry "from another part of Scotland" which might lessen Lomond as the orthodox only best match for loch Lumonoy.
For our own candidate Lympne in Kent, the Loch Lumonoy or "Lomond" name of this Wonder is very similar to our site's names Lemanis/Lympne and/or LliffMenai and/or Romney? Jackson actually confirms that the places names Lemanis and Lomond are accepted to be linguistically related (though in another place claims one would not become the other).

Versions of the Wonder's name(s) are: Lumonoy/Lomonoy / Lummonu/Llumonwy / Lemnon/Leinnon /Lomond/Lumond / Leven, & Leamain/Leamam / Lemn/Lenm / Levin/Lenin / Leuen/Leun.

Versions of our site's name(s) are: Lemanis/Lemanus / Lemanianus/Lemaniano / Lymne/Lympne / Limnean / Limenware, & Lemanum/Lemanus / Limne/Lymne, & Lliff Menai, & Romney / Ruman e.

Versions of the Scottish loch's name(s) are: Lomond/Lumond, & Leven/Leamhain/*Lemanis, & Lennox/Leamhnach(t)/Lemnach/Leamhain/Lemain, & loch Long.

Versions of thought-to-be-related name(s) in Welsh poetry from other parts of Scotland are: Llwyfein/Lemania, & Llwyfenyd/Lemania.

Versions of a related Argyllshire place name are: Lemannonios (& Linhe?)

Version of the related name of lake of Geneva are: Lemannus.

Loch match:
This Wonder is said to be a (great/large) loch or lake. Loch/lough can mean "a lake, arm of the sea". Critics have claimed that our site doesn't match this because in our present times the area is not like a loch. However sources say/show that in Roman times our site's area was an inlet/indentation of sea or marsh. "... Rother/Limen to Llif Menai (fast flowing or striking flood, seemingly in reference to the strong estuary tides)." "... when it [Stutfall/Lemanis fort] was built it was reached by an arm of the sea ... but continuous siliting has spearated it from the coast by two miles of marshland." "Stutfall Castle seems to have occupied a broad point of land forming the north shore of a strait separated by a wide tract of marsh and sandbank from the mainland. This sea channel gradually disappeared to become part of Romney Marsh but excavation has demonstrated that the shoreline was originally 1.8 meters below the present level of the marsh. The siting of the fort and its Classis Britannica predecessor, with the command of this narrow estuary, made good strategic sense enabling it to control all shipping entering the harbour…." "A few centuries ago it was covered by the sea, which came right up to the foothills, so that all of Romney Marsh is reclaimed land. And from those hills you get the most marvellous view away towards Dungeness and Lydd.... .... It has a clear sweep for miles right out to sea.... .... The only considerable towns are Rye and Winchelsea—which can hardly be said to be on Romney Marsh at all. Rye is set on a sort of conical hill, and must in the olden days have been almost completely surrounded by water." ("Britain was once a land of lakes and isles. The draining of the marshes of the Vale of York, the Fens, and southern England, and the filling of many of our lakes with sediment since the end of the last ice age ~18-10 thousand years ago has left only Scotland, Cumbria and the Broads as lakeland areas.") We showed in the 12 battles articles that the (Trat) Tribruit battle site of Arthur in the HB and PG also matches this area. (The suggested meanings of Trat Tribruit include "river strand", "the sands of the shore between high- and low-tide marks; and as applied to a river, the sandbanks of a tidal estuary, such as that of Solway", "not the bank of an inland river", "somewhere round the mouth of a tidal river; and there was some natural feature there, such as a channel or gully, which caused it to be called The Strand(s) of the Pierced, or Broken (through) (Place)", "three running streams/estuaries". Tribruit is also associated with Manawyddan the god of the sea.) One of the finds at Stutfall was an altar dedicated to Neptune by an admiral of the Roman British fleet. There are still reminiscent traces of this in the names and descriptions of area, eg: Romney Marsh (name from aet thaere riman e "at the broad river"), Denge Marsh, Rye's name from "aet thaere iege' "at the island", etc. The portage and loch of ships connected with Loch Lomond in Scotland might be analogous to our site which was a port?

River Levin match:
The one river/stream Leamhan/Leamain/Lemn/Lenm/Levin/Leamam/Lenin/Leun draining the loch presumably matches in our site's area the ancient/medieval river Lemanis/Lemanum/Limen/Limden (East Rother, or Limden?)
(Also, Lympne/Romney drains south like Lomond in Scotland does?)

Eagles match:
The eagles of loch Lumonoy might connect with the eryri/heriri/heremi/heremus/aravius "eagle rocks" mountains of Snowdon(ia) and the supposed site of Dinas Emrys. Snowdon means "snow hill", and in Arthurian traditions "(the castle of) Snowdon" seems to be connected with the Downs and Dover/Albion and castellum Guinnion ("white fort"). Eryri/Heremus is a "stupendous mountain" or "mountains", and name may mean "highlands", which can well match famous Dover's downs/heights/hill/drop/cliffs. Dinas Emrys also seems to be connected with fort Guinnion and maybe with St Martin le Grand at Dover. (The site of Dover/Guinnion seems to feature prominently in many Welsh/British/Arthurian sources under a few different names.) It is ludicrous to have Vortigern and Emrys/Ambrosius/Merlin and Arthur in North Wales.
Eagles are also a majorly associated with the Romans as a symbol (because legions carried eagle standards), and our site has much more ties with Romans there then than does Loch Lomond.
If the orthodox Lomond location candidate is right then why is it "impossible to prove the number of eagles nests"?

60 Streams match:
This wonder is said to have had 60 rivers/streams feeding the loch.
Some maps and descriptions do show quite alot of streams/rivers in our site's area in Roman and/or medieval times.
"The many streams that were formerly here [Romney]...."?
(The river name is "found in a number of East Sussex names"?)
The "pierced or broken through" meaning of Tribruit proposed by some scholars might also link with this.
There are/were 3 main rivers in the Lemanis area (River Rother, River Brede, River Tillingham), which might match with the "3 rivers" meaning of Tribruit that is also proposed by some scholars.

Arthur there match:
Loch Lomond is supposed to have been visited or known by Arthur (in the HRB) and Nennius (in the HB). It is not likely that the travels and/or knowledge of Arthur and Nennius extended so extensively far up as Loch Lomond in Caledonia side of the Antonine Wall. It is ridiculous for mainstream Arthurian scholarship to have Arthur and Nennius romping all over the whole of Britain from Scotland (Caledon wood, Loch Lomond, Edinburgh) to Lincoln to "Chester" ("city of the legion") to Snowdon and Anglesey to Cardigan (Cruc Mawr) to Somerset (Bath and Glastonbury and Cadbury) to Cornwall (Tintagel, Lyonesse).

Nennius there match.
"Nennius" wrote both the 12 battles and the Wonders sections. We accidentally found that that battle sites of Arthur and the Wonders of Britain seem to match the same 9 Saxon Shore sites. That the battle sites and wonders both seem to match the same 9 sites seems to give some extra weight support and confirmation that our battle sites (and wonders) sites match is likely right, while others matches which do not also all match both are lesser to ours in this respect.
It is usually generally said that only two of the Wonders of Britain are associated with "(King) Arthur" (Cabal's cairn & Amr's tomb). However there are actually quite a few more than just two wonders that are connected with Arthur in traditional sources: Loch Lumonoy (HRB), Hot Lake ("Baths of Badon"), Salt Fountain (in same place as Hot Lake), Lynn Liuan (HRB), Fount Guur Helig (HRB), the mysterious body of the Levitating Altar, and the Pictish Palace (Liber Floridus). Since Nennius wrote both the 12 battles and the Wonders sections then surely it is quite possible/reasonable/sensible that Nennius did add the wonders as a semi-secret clue to the battle sites locations.

Number/order match:
Our site in the south-east coast of Britain slightly better fits the Wonder's number and order of "1st" of the Wonders of Britain than does the orthodox Loch Lomond candidate near by the Antonine Wall at the north-west end of Roman Britain. The "1st" might also fit with our site being in the first 3 sites in the Notita Dignitatum. (We can see that the ND sites can be grouped in 2 or 5 groups/series/pairs: Othona/Bradwell/Maldon; Dubris/Dover, Lemanis/Stutfall.Lympne; Branodunum/Brancaster, Gariannonum/Burgh/Yarmouth; Regulbium/Reculver, Rutupi/Richborough; Anderida/Pevensey, Adurni/Portchester.)
Conventional scholars have Arthur's battles and the Wonders of Britain scattered all over almost the whole length of Britain, and certain of their battle sites and wonders like "Lomond" are far away from others. In our scenario the 9 battle sites and the Wonders all match 9 Saxon Shore sites from Great Yarmouth to Portsmouth, and our sites including Lemanis/Lympne are not far from other sites.

In Britain match:
Loch Lumonoy is 1st in the Wonders of Britain in the Historia Britonum. Our site maybe slightly better matches this than the orthodox candidate. The  Irish version of the Wonders has wonders of Britain and wonders of Scotland, and loch Lumonoy is in the British ones not in the Scottish ones.  Roman Britain ended at Hadrian's Wall or the Antonine Wall, and Loch Lomond is on the north side of the Antonine Wall. The Classis Britannica / "British Fleet" also had a port at our site.
(This point might also possibly be confirmed by "which is called in English" in the attached heading in some manuscripts? England doesn't extand as far up as the Antonine Wall.)
The Lomond/Lemanis name is thought by some scholars to maybe be related to Llwyfein & Llwyfenyd of Welsh poetry, which would also seem to indicate a more southerly location (though "these belong to another part of Scotland).

Near Alclud/Dumbarton match:
The analogous Scottish Loch Lomond is near Dumbartonshire in maps and it is described as "at the mouth of which the city of Alcluith was built by the Romans". In the HRB loch Lumonoy is said to be not very far from Alclud, and in Albani. The Arthurian 'Albani' is not Scotland (Albany, Alba, DrumAlban, Alpin) but is the Downs (Albion). Alclud/Dumbarton in Scotland is an analogous memory copy of the original Arthurian Alclud/Dumbarton at Dover [Guinnion]. 'Dumbarton (rock)' means "fortress of the Britons / Britain", which recalls Dover (Albion) and fort Guinnion. The name of '(the ford of) (caer) Al(t)-Clut' means ail "(a) rock", or "a height/cliff", or "white", or "a house site", + "river Clyde", or "Caledon", which also well fits Dover and Guinnion. Our loch Lumonoy site Lemanis/Lympne is not far from Dover [Guinnion].

60 Cliffs/rocks match:
Lemanis fort has a description of "... hanging on a clay slope.... ... slipping downhill.... ... the steep slope of a hill...."
Folkstone to the east is on a cliff edge?
Lemanis and Folkstone are not that far from the cliffs of Dover further east.
Eryri/heriri/heremi/heremus/aravius "eagle rocks" of Snowdon is connected with Dover/Guinnion as already mentioned.
The cliff(s) at Holywell?
7 sisters cliffs?

60/40 Islands match?
They say that the number of islands/rocks/etc doesn't match loch Lomond in Scotland (though it does have a "large number of" "many" islands).
I don't know what the match for this is at our own site due to lack of information resources access.
The map OldKent.jpg of "Kent at the coming of the Saxons" shows 6 islands in the indentation.
Rye's name from "aet thaere iege' "at the island".
("Britain was once a land of lakes and isles.")

Beacon/hill/chimney match?
Some sources derive the name of Loch Lumonoy and Ben Lomond from l(l)umon "(a) chimney, (a) beacon, the beacon hill"? "Kai and Bedwyr sat on a beacon cairn on the summit of Plynlymon" in 'Culhwch & Olwen'. Modred's song "made huge Plinlimmon bow his cloud-topped head". The beacon & hill/summit or "chimney" might match Dover. In some maps of Roman Kent, Dover is nearby and/or almost overlooks the Lemanis indentation, like the analgous Loch Lomond is nearby Ben Lomond (and like Glen Douglas near the portage at Arraochar from Loch Long to Loch Lomond is "overlooked by Ben Arthur"?)
Also/alternatively compare the aforementioned description of Lemanis fort "slipping downhill.... ... the steep slope of a hill...."

If our match is right then this is an example of how Arthurian names are sometimes misleading. Many people keep wrongly assuming/asserting that Arthurian names must only match the most commonly known place associated with the name without really checking if they might actually really match other places. Alot of Arthurian names like Eidyn ("Edinburgh"), Lumonoy ("Lomond"), Linnuis ("Lincoln"), Alclud ("Dumbarton"), Albani ("Scotland"), "Snowdon" ("Gwynedd"), etc are actually refering to earlier Arthurian sites in the south-east. "Lomond" is no longer one of the alleged evidences for Arthur in the North, because Lumonoy is shown here to pretty surely not be Loch Lomond but to be a site in the South. There are plenty of other Arthurian sites which we can also give similar evidences that they are not the assumed/asserted places.
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2018 at 13:27

The 6th Wonder is Lynn Liuan.

"There is another wonder: it is the confluence of Linn Liuan; the mouth of that river flows into the Severn, and when both the Severn is flooded to The Teared [the bore], and the sea is flooded similarly into the aforementioned mouth of the river, both it is received into the lake/pool of the mouth in the mode of a whirlpool and the sea does not advance up. And a bank/shore exists near the river, and so long as the Severn is flooded to The Teared [the bore] that bank/shore is not covered, and when the sea and Severn ebbs, at that time lake Liuan vomits all that it has devoured from the sea and both that bank/shore is covered and in the likeness of a mountain in one wave it spews and bursts. And if there was the army of the whole region, in the midst of where it is, and it directed its face against the wave, even the army the wave carries off through the force, by fluid full clothes. If, on the other hand, the backs of the army were turned against it, the same wave doesn't harm, and when the sea may have ebbed, then the entire bank, which the wave covers, backwards is bared and the sea recedes from it."
(- Nennius, 'Historia Britonum')

"He told him likewise of another pond in Wales, near the Severn, called by the country people Linligwan, into which when the sea flows, it receives it in the manner of a gulf, but so as to swallow up the tide, and never be filled, or have its banks covered by it. But at the ebbing of the sea, it throws out the waters which it had swallowed, as high as a mountain, and at last dashes and covers the banks with them. In the meantime, if all the people of that country should stand near with their faces towards it, and happened to have their clothes sprinkled with the dashing of the waves, they would hardly, if at all, escape being swallowed up by the pond. But with their backs towards it, they need not fear being dashed, though they stood upon the very banks."
(- Geoff of Monmouth, HRB.)

"There is a lake near the Severn, called the Lake of Llion, which swallows all the water that flows into it at the tide of flood, without any visible increase; but at the tide of ebb, it swells up like a mountain, and pours its waters over its banks, so that whoever stands near it at this time, must run the risk of being overwhelmed."
(- "Arthur" / British Chronicle(s) / Myv. Arch.)

The orthodox location candidate: "no one knows where this is", "suggestions" include a "likely" site and "an alternative" site.

Our own location candidate is in the Richborough/Ebbsfleet area. Richborough/Rutupi is the site of the 'city of the legion' battle site of Arthur.

Here are our matches evidences/reasons:

Same number/order:
Linn Liuan is 6th of 13 Wonders.
Leominster & Lann Llieni is the 6th of 12 Monasteries.
City of the Legion is the 6th of 9 battle sites.
Legecester is the 5th of 11 Consuls.
Richborough/Rutupi (legio Augusta) is the 5th of 9 Saxon Shore sites.

The name Liuan/Ligwan is may be similar to name Legion?

The "army of the whole region" mentioned in the Wonder's description might link with the legion of the 'city of the legion' Rutupi/Richborough.

Linn Liuan is confirmed to be associated with the city of the legion or city of lions via the 12 Monasteries list which has Leominster linked with Lann Llieni. It also seems to be confirmed to be near the city of the legion by the analogous "Caerleon between Aber Gwy & Linn Lliwan" in Wales.

The nature of this wonder re the "ebbing" and/or "waves" seems to probably match the Ebbsfleet area. Some say that the name Ebbsfleet might be from word ebbian with regard to "all the water in the channel twice daily moves away".
There is also "the wandering wave of Ocean and the storms of the Rutupine shores" mentioned in Lucan.
This is similar to the "9th wave Peryddon" where Gawain/Gwalchmai was buried, and the sources do say that Gawain died at Rutupi/Richborough (or alternatively at Dover).
Some versions of Caesar's invasion say that his ships were wrecked and/or shattered. (In the accounts this is not the same incident as the other one about the pikes/stakes in the Thames.) An orthodox article on Caesar's 1st invasion confirms there were "adverse winds", "storms in sight of beach head", "high British tides & a storm", "beached ships filled with water", "some ships were wrecked", "several days of storms". (The 9th wave Perddon might link with the 9th hour of Caesar's invasion?)

Our match seems to be confirmed by that this wonder is one of the 4 wonders which fairly-certainly seem to match the city of the legion Richborough which all happen to be the same as the 4 wonders that are omitted in the Irish version. It seems somewhat of a coincidence that the 4 wonders omitted in the Irish version are all ones that seem to match the same place.

The part about the faces or backs to the water seems quite likely to possibly be connected with invading and defending parties in the invasions of the Romans and Saxons in the Richborough/Ebbsfleet area?

Seeming confirmation that Lynn Liuan is connected with the city of the legion is also seen in that Lynn Liuan has been conneceted with river Leveney / Langors(e) which is associated with an ancient/past city which was swallowed-up by high waves (compare the waves of Lynn Liuan). This "city" of which there is no trace there at that traditional Welsh site is surely a memory of a city elsewhere, and it is similar to the City of Lions/Lyonesse, and we see that the remembered "city" seems to be the city of the legion Richborough/Rutupi where we place the original Lynn Liuan.

The wonder is confirmed to be connected with Arthur in the HRB. Arthur fought Saxons, and at the estimated time of Arthur's battles the Saxons were mainy only in the south-east quarter/half of England/Britain. He is thus unlikely to have been fighting Saxons in the lower Severn area. We show in our 12 Battles articles/papers that Arthur's 9 battle sites certainly seem to match the 9 Saxon Shore sites.

One remaining major doubt of critics and sceptics will be that this wonder is mentioned in connection with the "Severn" which they will adamantly assert can only be the one known river Severn in the west. However, there are evidences in Arthurian and "Welsh" traditions and literature that the Severn/Sabre/Sabrina/Sabrain/Habren was used for more/other waters around Britain than just the known river Severn. One possible example is "the seven mouths of the Severn" in the prophecy of Merlin in the HRB?
"The name Severn might have been the name for the bore" [or a wall of water or flood or drowning?]
In the HRB Sabrina (the Severn) is a close associate of Locrin(us) and Estrildis and Guendoloena.
Loegria/Logres seems to be connected with either the city of the legion or with London/Londres. The city of the legion is confirmed to be "near the Severn" in the HRB (though this is only possible supporting evidence and doesn't prove anything because Caerleon in Wales is not far from the Severn).
Locrin(us) connects with lake Lucrinus/Lucrinum which is linked with Rhutupi in Juvenal (being both similarily famous for their oysters). (There is also a Leucarum nearby an analogous "Lynn Liuan" site in the west.)
Locrin(us) was killed at river Sture which might match the river Stour by Richborough/Rutupi.
Guendoloena seems to be connected with Guinnion/Dover.
Estrildis was "white" which seems to link her with Dover/Guinnion?
(Incidentally, the western Severn is also associated with a Stourton / Stourbridge / Stourport near Worcester, which could possibly be an analogous memory of our earlier Severn and Stour in the east?)
The Severn is said to be the border between Kamber/Wales and Locrin/Loegria/England, and a claimed etymology of the name Severn is saefren "boundary line". In Arthurian times the boundary between the Britons/Welsh and Romans or Saxons was further east.
Severn might have been connected with Severus. The 9 emperors list in the HB seemingly might have a match with the 9 battle sites of Arthur, and Severus the 3rd emperor is closely associated with Bassianus and may correspond with 3rd battle site Bassas which is Reculver. Severus also built a wall which might link with the "boundary" meaning of Severn? (Tacitus mentioned Sabrina in ca 70/98-117 before Severus of 193-211 though so it might not be possible, though it still looks possible that the Arthurian sources did a conflation of the names.)
A 'Sevira' is associated with Vortigern in the pillar of Eliseg.
There is also a Segerus associated with Germanus and Partick which seems to point to the south-east of Britain.
Maybe there could even possibly have been a connection with Sebert of Essex?

Linn/lake/stagnum/pond/pool/gulf match?
Evans said that linn was not used for coastal areas. However this is not true because there are examples of place-names with linn in them nearby coasts. The first word aber can mean "estuary, mouth of river at coast" (though it can also/alternatively mean "confluence").
The lake Lucrinus or Lucrine lake/lagoon is linked with Rutupi in Juvenal, which suggests that there was a similar feature at the latter site.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 08-Jun-2018 at 13:36
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2018 at 15:06

The 13th/14th Wonder is 'Cruc Mawr'.

"There is another wonder in the region which is called Cereticiaun/Ceretun. There is there a mountain, which is given the name Cruc Maur (or Cruc Marc), and there is a grave on the summit of it, and every man whosoever that will come to the grave and stretch himself out next to it, however short they will be, the grave and the man have been found within one length, and, if it will be that the man is short and small, similarly also it is found the length of the grave is like the height of the man, and, if he will be long and tall, even if he might be of length 4 cubits near the height of every man so the tumulus is discovered. And every wanderer who’s up to weariness, the man will bow 3 bows near that, he will not be beyond himself upto his day of death, and he will not be weighted down again by any weariness, even if he will go alone to the boundaries of the cosmos."
(- "Nennius", 'Historia Britonum'.)

"A tumulus is to be seen on the summit of the aforesaid hill, and the inhabitants affirm that it will adapt itself to persons of all stature and that if any armour is left there entire in the evening, it will be found, according to vulgar tradition, broken to pieces in the morning."
(- Gerald of Wales, 1188.)

Orthodox site: Their candidate site is "probably" Crug Maur mound/farm near Cardigan in Wales. Its "actual location is still a little moot" and is "only one of a number of possible locations in the area". There is also another secondary candidate in Powys. They pretty much only base their site's claim on the name match and an implied link with the Cruc Mawr Wonder in an 1100s source, and nothing much else (except that it also matches "mound", and is also in a region named Ceredigion), they ignore that their site doesn't have any matches with most of the last half of the Wonder's description details.

Our site: We contend that this seems to surely match the large cruciform platform at Richborough/Rutupi (the city of the legion) combined with the christian cross. Our candidate has good matches for most all the details of the Wonder, and there are only one or a couple/few reasons why arch-critics refuse to accept our match as possible.

Some of our evidences reasons for Cruc Mawr being located at the city of the legion Richborough are:

Meaning/name match:
The name of this wonder is 'Cruc Mawr', with the mawr meaning "great" in Welsh, giving us a meaning of "big cruc" for the whole name, and this seems to us to match excellently with the description and pictures of the "large cruciform platform" at Richbrough/Rutupi.
In Welsh the word cruc means "mound/heap", hence cruc mawr is usually presumed to mean "big heap/mound", but the word Cruc can mean cross in Latin, and so Cruc Mawr could be "big cross/crux/crucifix". Some critics have asserted that because mawr is Welsh then Cruc must be Welsh too. Although their criticism has some weight to it, the fact is that it is not definitely right and doesn't prove or disprove anything. Nennius was "Welsh", but the HB of Nennius or Mark was written in Latin. World history does know some cases of mixed bi- or multi-lingual persons/peoples and words/names. Caerleon combines Welsh and Latin words. New Zealand's name has an English and a Dutch word. Tor-pen-howe and Bre-don_Hill are famous trilingual names. Eggscalibur is a modern example. Moreoever Roman "christians" (like Nennius & Mark were) are known for clever words games/puns/rhymes, one most famous example is Pope Gregory's "not Angles but angels" saying. In Gaelic crols/croch/croes/cros/cross is "a cross" and "another form of cnoc, a hill", which might possibly also confirm our view. Our "cross" contention is furthermore confirmed by that the rest of the Wonder's description certainly subtly alludes to the christian cross/crucifiction of Calvary. (The "every man whosoever will come", "stretch himself next to it", "height of a man", "height of every man", "every wanderer up to weariness", "3 bows", "not be beyond self or weighted down again by weariness", "even to bounds of cosmos" all certainly seem to match ideas about the cross  in christianity.)
 Some have suggested that our match is unlikely because the cruciform platform might not have been as exposed and visible as it is since modern excavation. The platform is said to only be the base/foundation of a much larger building/monument, so it is possible that the cross form may have extended above in the top part. The alternative "big mound/heap" meaning of Cruc Mawr can also match the large platform or could have matched with this larger building/monument or the ruins of it (also see Cruachan-Aichle below). Tumulus means "swell" and this could also match the platform which does look abit like a cross-shape swelled out from the ground? The crucifiction was also on/at the top of a hill (Golgotha / Calvary / 'Skull Hill') too.

Name/meaning match:
Arch-critics have insisted that they refuse to accept our match as possible unless we can also show that our site is associated with a name like cruc mawr in records. This is not necessarily fair because we can't be sure that cruc mawr was not just a name that was only used verbally/literarily by Nennius and/or other Welsh, with only the meaning matching.
Our case for Cruc Mawr being at Richborough seemingly may be confirmed in that the HRB has a "Crocea Mors" in around-about the same area. This Crocea Mors was supposedly the sword of Caesar used in his invasion, and we know that Caesar's invasion was in the Dover/Deal/Walmer/Richborough/Ebbsfleet/Thames area. (It is said that Caesar's penetration of Britain did not go further than Wallingford on the Thames.) The case for Richborough is supported by that the large cruciform is quite likely to be the grave of Labienus who died in the invasion. Cruc and Crocea have 4 letters all the same or interchangeable, and mawr/maur/mor and mors are also closely similar (and/or Cruc mawr was a "mons" which is also similar to mors). A sword hilt is also cross shaped which might match with the proposed "big cross" meaning of Cruc Mawr. (Arthur's sword Excalibur/Caliburn might be connected with the Cross of Calvary? Julius Caesar might be the "Jesus Christ" of Guinnion/Badon?) Cruc Mawr and Crocea Mors are both associated with a Nennius. Both are also connected with burials/graves/tombs and/or death. Even the description of being "mortal to everybody that was wounded with it" might link with the christian cross and cruc mawr fitting everyone. The victory of Nennius & the Britons in the Crocea Mors story is also similar to Guinnion and Badon which also feature the Cross. Crocea Mors as "Caesar's sword" might also possibly link with the "armour broken to pieces" of Gerald of Wales' later version of the Cruc Mawr stor? In the HRB the name 'Chorea Gigantum' "Giant's Dance" could possibly provide an intermediate bridge between Cruc Mawr and Crocea Mors. (Though this "giant's dance" might instead match the Round Table and/or legion, and/or the amphitheatre?)
Cruc Mawr's (or mons') name is possibly similar to the "crooked" Mons Graupius (p & c interchange in Celtic?), and some sources suggest that the large cruciform platform at Rutupi/Richborough was a monument to the battle of Mons Graupius?
Crecganford 457 in the ASC was possibly in the area and its name could possibly be connected with our Cruc Mawr at Richborough?
We have reasons for believing that "Cruachan-Aichle / Mt Eli" of the life of Patrick in the HB is the same site as our Cruc Mawr "mons" at Richborough.
Patrick "continued fasting 40 days & nights, on the summit of the mountain Eli, that is Cruachan-Aichle" is similar to Germanus "upon a rock prayed for his sins during 40 days & 40 nights", and this could suit the large crucifrom platform. Germanus was surely in the south-east. Note the "summit" is common to both the Cruc Mawr wonder and Patrick's Cruachan. Mt Eli's name certainly links with the city of the legion which was founded by Beli/Heli.
("Hearing the tales of Cruachan's Carlin" mentioned in Bullen's poems might also confirm that Cruc Mawr / Cruachan-Aichle is connected with the city of the legion or "Caerleon"?)
Vale Crucis and the Pillar of Eliseg also might confirm Cruc Mawr being near the city of the legion? Eliseg is similar to other Eli, Aelecti, etc names that seem to be connected with the city of the legion (and/at) Richborough. (Beli/Heli founded the city of the legion.)
"The Book of Llandav has 2 references to a Vallis Brachan & it looks to be situated in the parish of St. Bride's-super-Ely in Glamorganshire. 1 of the references appears under the heading Crucmarc." Ely is connected with the city of the legion (founded by Beli/Heli). Llandav is near Caerleon "city of the legion".
The XPI near Creta in the 431 entry of the ASC E version might also possibly be our Cruc Mawr at Richborough (see more detailed explanation on this below).
The orthodox location candidate in Cardigan can not be proven to have had the name or tradition associated with it before 1187 and back to the time of Arthur/Nennius. Aside from Crug Maur in Cardigan, and Crug Mawr in Powys, there are also some other places that also have a similar name such as Crugmeer farm in north Cornwall, and Craigmore in Antrim/Londonderry/Maghera? These places might show that there are other candidates, and might point to a wider tradition, and weaken the orthodox candidate's claim.
Crugmeer farm is nearby Padstow in Cornwall. The "metropolis of Padarn" matches the city of the legion Richborough.
In the 24 kings and 33 cities document the city of the legion is said to have been built at the same time as Jerusalem, which may imply that the Arthurian "Jerusalem" or Uerolamiensem/Verulam is city of the legion (or else Guinnion/Dover). Jesus was crucified at Jerusalem. (Uerolamiensem might possibly be a corrpution of Urbelegionis?)

Valle Crucis is site of Pillar of Eliseg.
Crucmarc is heading of referencce to Vallis Brachan in St Brides-super-Ely.
Caradog and Again's Cross of St Padarn is in Campus Heli.
Patrick's Cruachan-Aichle is Mt Eli (in the HB).
Crucygreif associated with St Elli (in Arthurian Sts Lives).

Eliseg, Ely, Heli, Eli, Elli also seem to be connected with each other and with the city of the legion Richborough confirming that Cruc Mawr & Cereticiaun was in the neighbourhood.

Cereticiuan match
This Cruc Mawr Wonder is claimed to have been in the district of 'Cereticiaun' which means "people of Ceredig, Ceredig's land" (while Ceredig's name is from root meaning "dear, love"). Critics have adamantly asserted that this "almost certainly" can only be Ceredigion/Cardigan in Wales. We give quality and quantity evidences that the 9 battle sites of Arthur and the Wonders of Britain including Cruc Mawr certainly match our South-East sites and not sites in the West or North.
There are evidences for Ceretic names in the Richborough area of Kent including:
Caractacus the opponent of Claudius was in the Kent area. He has been suggested to be either Guiderius or Arviragus who were also both in the south-east.
Carausius had his base at Rutupi/Richborough.
Caradoc duke of "Cornwall" is associated with Leolin in the HRB, and Leolin likely connects with the city of the legion (which is Richborough).
The ASC E version has "Moses" appearing at "Creta/Crete" and crossing the sea on foot, and a Xpi, in 431. We have reasons for thinking that "Creta" and the sea is really Thanet and the Wantsum-Stour, and that the Xpi might possibly be our cruc mawr at Richborough? (Creta can also mean chalk which could also link with the Downs and white cliffs of Kent. Compare the modern name Cretaceous for the "Chalk" period of the geological timescale. "Cridious of Albania" in the HRB?)
The soliders of Coroticus of Patrick's letter we have reasons for believing that they are linked with the city of the legion (and) Richborough.
Ceretic is the 5th son of Cunedda. "Cunedda and his 12 children who fought against the Gwyddyl" might be connected with the 12 battles of Arthur, the 9 battle sites of which match the 9 Saxon Shore forts. Ceretic as the 5th son may match Rutupi/Richborough as the 5th SS site, and Legecester is the 5th of the 11 consuls, which cross-switch matches with the city of the legion as the 6th of 9 battle sites.
Cerdic the interpretor of Hengist in the HB & HRB was in the Kent area.
Cherdic was received by Vortigern in the HRB.
Kaercaradoc "Salisbury" is associated with Hengist & Vortigern in the HRB. Salisbury in Hampshire is nearby a river Stour which might be anlogous to the river Stour that Richborough is on (the area of our Cereticiaun).
Crecganford 457 in the ASC was possibly in the area and its name is similar to Cereticiaun/Ceredigion?
Ulfin of Ricaradoch might be a conflation of Richborough and Caradoc and thus confirm that the name Ceretic is associated with the area.
Cerdic of Wessex according to some sources may have ranged from Great Yarmouth to Hampshire. (Some have thought that Cerdicshore 495/514 is Great Yarmouth rather than in the south-west.)
Cheldric was at "Thanet" in the Badon/Bath chapters in the HRB.
Ceredigion is connected with St Padarn and Guinnius in the Saints Lives. Guinnius surely links with Guinnion which is Dover not far from Richborough.
Caradog was in Campus Heli in the Life of St Padarn, which place is the same as Maisbeli and the city of the legion (founded by Beli/Heli).
Careticus [of "Elmet"?] was at "Cirecenster" shortly before battle of city of the legion (607/613) in the HRB, and died in 615/616 imediately after the battle of the city of the legion in the AC, which might mean Careticus is closely associated with the city of the legion?
Aberteivi [Cardigan] as the "key to all Wales" is also maybe analogous to Rutupi's/Richborough's similar nature in Roman times. The "key to all Wales" is also similar to Gwensteri and "subdue Lloegyr" in Gwallawg's battles in Taliesin which also seems to match the city of the legion and Richborough. (The 9 battle sites of Arthur in the HB match the 9 Saxon Shore forts of the ND, and Gwallawg's battles in Taliesin also seemingly correspond with the 9 battle sites of the HB and 9 Saxon Shore forts too, with Gwensteri semeing to match the city of the legion Richborough.) [Cardigan porth and island also are analogous to port Rutupi/Richbrough (once was an island)?]
Evidences suggest that the author of the HB played clever names games, and/or that the later Britons/Welsh had remnant analogous namesakes in Cornwall/Wales/North of original Arthurian sites in the south-east. There are quite a few districts/regions names in the HB battles and Wonders sections that certainly seem to have been in the south-east and not in the more well-known namesake places (Celidon, Linnuis, Buelt, Cereticiaun, etc). Roman christian sources are known for such clever games, remember the example of Gregory's "not Angles but angels".

Cardigan & Crug Mawr is associated with calends of July in 1093.
City of the legion associated with St Julius.
Richborough/Rutupi is associated with Julius Caesar.
St Padarn associated with kalends of July (Vita Paternus).

Grave (on summit) and/or Tumulus match:
Cruc Mawr being a grave may match our candidate by either:
The Calvary/Golgotha site of the crucifiction is also a grave/tomb site (Jesus died there and was entombed nearby, and christians all die with him there).
The large cruciform platform at our site is likely to be the grave of Labienus who died in Caesar's invasion.
Crocea Mors means "yellow death" and is associated with the grave of Nennius in the HRB.
Julius & Aaron were martyred at the city of the legion, the same city of the legion that is in Arthur's battles which is certainly Richborough/Rutupi.
Some have suggested that Vortimer's cenotaph was at Richborough. (The HB & HRB certainly seem to indicate the Ebbsfleet/Richborough area by the words "the port where the Saxons first landed".)
Gawain is said the have died and/or been buried at Rutupi.
Crocea Mors "yellow death" is similar to the "yellow plague" and Maelgwn sleeping in the court of Rhos in 547 in the Welsh Annals. Rhos matches with Rutupi/Richborough.
If the Giant's Dance is the same as our Cruc Mawr at Richborough then we also note these too:
460 slain barons buried near Ambrius not far from Salisbury (HRB).
Sepulchre of Ambrosius in Giant's Dance at/near covent of Ambrius at/near  "Winchester" (HRB).
Uther buried close by Ambrosius within Giant's Dance (HRB).
(The orthodox site in Cardigan might be a tumulus/grave, though not sure if there is one on the summit? There is a cairn on top. It is only their conjecture in order to match the Wonder for a cist on top though.)

"Fits Every Man" who lays beside it:
Cruc Mawr fitting every man matches the Christian Cross (which Nennius has conflated with the large cruciform platform at Richborough), as seen by this modern day quote example: "Jesus the perfect gift that fits every heart".
How does the orthodox candidate match this?

They are "not weighted down" anymore, and it comforts "even to the bounds of universe" all who bow to it.
These also fit the christian cross (which Nennius has conflated with the large cruciform platform at Richborough), eg the Bible says "come all you heavy laden and i will give you rest", "my yoke/burden is light".
The orthodox site in Cardigan doesn't have any sensible match for these things.

"Short & small", "long & tall", and "4 cubits", and "3 bows" matches?
The part about fitting short & small persons and long & tall persons might possibly match the cruciform platform having a long thin bar and a short thick cross-bar? The height/length of a man could also match that the cross is size of the man crucified on it, and the large cruciform platform looks like it might be about the height of a man above the ground?
The "4 cubits" might match the 4 arms? (A cubit was a measure from finger tip to elbow of a bent arm.) [The 20 cubits of the 7th wonder Fount Guur Helig might might be connected with the 4 cubits of this wonder and the arms of the cruciform platform?]
The "3 bows" could possibly connect with the surrounding triple ditch/trench moat?

Our match seems to be confirmed by that this wonder is one of the 4 wonders which fairly-certainly seem to match the city of the legion Richborough which all happen to be the same as the 4 wonders that are omitted in the Irish version. It seems somewhat of a coincidence that the 4 wonders omitted in the Irish version are all ones that seem to match the same place.

(There are a few more bits which we have not yet finished writing and are not yet included in this new write up about Cruc Mawr.)

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2018 at 04:53
Your favoured site is not on the summit of a mountain/hill though - an important feature in all the descriptions (Nennius/Gerald) and your comparisons with Patrick/Germanus.

It is also clear we are being told about a grave (or grave like structure) that a man lies down next to in order to be compared with. But the cruciform at Richborough measures 144 feet by 104 feet. You might want to argue the description meant height wise for the structure (despite the clear orientation indicated in Nennius), yet even here it is only around 5 feet high all around. 
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2018 at 08:06
1. Our candidate for cruc mawr is the large cruciform platform at Richborough combined (by Nennius) with the christian cross.
The christian crucifiction was at the top/summit of Calvary/Golgotha.
The cruciform platform cross-shape is seen from the top / above (as also like lying on the cross/crucifix).
The cruciform platform was probably the grave of Labienus who died in Caesar's invasion. The platform is just the base of the larger monument built over, and this might have been or included a smaller cenotaph or grave.
The platform and the larger building built on it qualifies as a mons/mount/hill/heap.
(Julliberies Grave has also been suggested to be the grave of Labienus, and this might be an analogous memory?)

Vortimer "commanded a brazen pyramid to be placed in the port where the Saxons used to land, and his body when dead to be buried on the top of it" (HRB).

"He [Beli] also made a gate of wonderful structure in Trinovantum... which the citizens call after his name Billingsgate to this day. Over it he built a prodigiously large tower, and under it a haven or quay for ships. .... At last, when he had finished his days, his body was burned, and the ashes put up in a golden urn, which they placed at, with wonderful art, on the top of the tower above-mentioned." (HRB.)

The place "Billingsgate" is not in London but is really the city of the legion founded by Beli (Campus Heli, Maisbeli "field of Beli/Heli/Eli"). (Possibly Ely is even also British corruption of July/Julius?)

There is also a tumulus at Woodnesbrough nearby Richborough (and one at Julliberies Grave), but that wouldn't fit/eplain the rest of the Wonder's description details which certainly seem to only be explained by christian cross.

2. Christians do lie down next to the christian cross. Its the christian cross that fits all people not the feature at Richborough.
Nennius has cleverly conflated the two.
People can lie down next to the cruciform platform with it being analogous to lying down beside the christian cross.
We don't know what the upper larger part of the building was like, there might have been a smaller feature that could lie down next to there (similar to the cist theory of the orthodox site in Cardigan).

The orthodox site does not match these equally or more so.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 12-Jun-2018 at 02:44
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2018 at 08:17

The Pictish Palace is an extra Wonder of Britain that is found in the version of the Wonders of Britain in the Liber Floridus but is not in the original Wonders of Britain list in the Historia Britonum of "Nennius".

( You can see more about the 'Liber Floridus' version of the Wonders of Britain here:
http://users.clas.ufl.edu/jshoaf/LiberFMarvels.html
http://users.clas.ufl.edu/jshoaf/LiberFloridus.html
http://people.clas.ufl.edu/jshoaf/2014/07/10/pictish-arthur/ .)

"The Pictish palace of Arthur the soldier, where his 12 battles against the Saxons are sculpted."
(- Lambert of St Omer, 'Liber Floridus'.)

"... a palace was erected, perhaps by Arthur or perhaps as his tomb (descriptions of tombs were a common poetic endeavor), and on it were sculpted and painted his battles."
(- Judy Shoaf.)

"The emperor Carausius ... built also a round house (domun rotundam) with/of polished stones (politis lapidibus) on the bank(s) of the River Carun [Carron]...."
(- "Nennius", 'Historia Britonum' 23 gloss.)

"the Roman temple which was known as early as 1293 as the Oven of Arthur, for it too was round and made of polished stones and lay near the River Carron."
(- 1293 / Dr Steer of the Ancient Monuments Commission / Loomis?)

Orthodox location candidate: This Wonder has been thought by some to be the same as the "round house of polished stones on the banks of the Carun/Carron" of Carausius mentioned elsewhere in the HB, with the latter being considered to be Arthur's Oven at Stenhousmuir (10-12 miles from Stirling) which is a Roman temple. The only reason for this seems to be because of the Wonder's "Pictish" name (and maybe also that they might have got the impression that the palace with the sculpture(s) of the 12 battles is round?)
Alternatively, Adam Ardrey apparently suggested that the Pictish Palace is at Carpow fort near Perth (which is also his candidate location for the Bassas battle site of Arthur)?

Our site: In my own view, since the 9 battle sites of Arthur certainly seem to match the 9 Saxon Shore sites (and since the Wonders of Britain also seem to match the same 9 SS sites too), we think that the Pictish Palace seems to probably match either a building at Dover (Guinnion in the HB, Eidyn in the PG, Arddunion of Gwallawg) or at Richborough/Rutupi (Legionis in the HB, Dissethach in the PG, Gwensteri of Gwallawg). This opinion is supported by the text saying "of Arthur the soldier, where his 12 battles against the Saxons are sculpted".

We will now give our seeming-possible matches-evidences for each of our two candidates. (We are not sure which of the sites/buildings is the correct/best match so we give the matches evidences for both.)

"Pictish":
Before we look at our 2 candidates, first we must mention that the label "Pictish" does not mean it was in Scotland.
Arthur is not Pictish except only in a few late sources like the LF. 'Dux Pictorum' of the L.F. resembles 'Dux Bellorum' of the HB, and 'Dux Britanniarum' of the ND.
Arthur didn't fight Scots or Picts except in few late sources like the HRB. "No source before Geoffrey of Monmouth says that Arthur fought Scots/Picts". (Though the Halleluyah victory of Germanus against "Saxons and Picts" might possibly match the 1st battle of Arthur's 12 battles?)
The word "Picts" has been used for other Britons other than just the Scottish Picts. "…the Britanni of South Britain were also occasionally called Caledonii and Picti...." - James Paterson, 'Origin of the Scots and the Scottish Language'.
Picts and Britons were both supposed to be similarily painted (blue).
Cruithne and Britain have been thought to be related P & Q Celtic versions of same name.
The Britons that Caesar fought were said to be like Picts in one source. "in a panegyric delivered in 297, appears the earliest extant mention of the Picts (Picti). The anonymous author makes a poetic reference to Julius Caesar having had a relatively easy task invading Britain, since his opponents were: "... primitive and used only to foes as yet half-naked, like the Picts and the Irish [Hiberni] ..."."
The sylva Caledonia of Caesar's invasion in Florus etc is agreed to surely be the Weald. The name Caledonian(s) might originate from the Catuvellauni or Camulodunum (in Caesar's invasion)?
The mountain Sidh Chailleann / Schiehallion "fairy hill of the Caledonians" in Scotland is an analogous namesake copy memory of the earlier Dover/Guinnion site of Arthurian times.
The "Southern Picts" of Hwiterne in the ASC seem to be connected with Dover (see more on this below).
The word Pict(s) might be connected with Wihtgar(asburh) "Wight" of the ASC which might be connected with Guinnion "white people".

"Arthur the solider", and "12 battles against the Saxons":
Arthur is stated in sources to have fought Saxons. At the estimated time of Arthur's battles (between Octa and Ida) the Saxons were mainly only in the south-east half of England/Britain, on the south-east side of a line from the Wash to the Solent (or "from the Humber to Devon" in the opinion of orthodox critics).
In our 12 battles of Arthur articles we show that the 9 battle sites of Arthur's 12 battles certainly seem to match the 9 Saxon Shore sites from Great Yarmouth to Portsmouth.
So this Arthurian wonder like other Arthurian sites can not be in the far North, and must be in the South-East half of Britain.

(Pictish) Palace:
Richborough/Rutupi (city of the legion) candidate: A possible match for the Pictish Palace at Richborough is the building/monument over the large cruciform platform. It is possible that the sculpture(s) of the 12 battles could have been divided/grouped into 3 battles in each of the 4 walls/arms of the cruciform building? This building has been suggested by some scholars to have been a monument to Agricola's victory of Mons Graupius (which could match this wonder's "Pictish" name). Sources say that the building was "faced with Italian marbles", which is similar to Malory's "great white palace of white marble" at Camelot (which could match this wonder's "palace" title), and which is maybe similar to the "round house of polished stones (politis lapidibus)" of Carausius, and also maybe vaguely similar to the "sculpted" of this Wonder?
(Carausius' house of stones was round though which seemingly may not match the platform at Richborough which is cruciform, though the "round" house could possibly still fit. Richborough is also said to have been a base of Carausius. The name Carausius might even be a British version of Claudius?)
 There might also be a connection with the "brazen pyramid" cenotaph of Vortimer which some think was at Richborough (since the HB & HRB say it that was supposed to be at "the port where the Saxons first landed"). The "pyramid" could match 4 x 3 battles sculptures. Arthur's name might be from Gwrthefyr/Vortimer.

Dover (Guinnion) candidate: Our possible candidate for the Pictish Palace at Dover is the church of St Martin le Grand. The name of this church might be connected with Arthur's battle(s). Leon Mintz's paper gave tentative evidence of links between Arthur/Merlin & Ares/Mars (war god) & St Martin. Pictures show that part of church had a cross-top shape like C|- and it is possible that the walls could have shown the 3 x 3/4 battles/sites of Arthur on the 3 main wings walls or on the circular part's wall (like the round house of Carausius theory). St Martin le Grand at Dover (Guinnion "white fort") may match the church of St Martin at Hwiterne "white house" of Ninnian and the "Southern Picts" in the 560 entry of the ASC. This site Hwiterne is usually supposed to be Whithorn in Galloway but some of the details seem to better match Dover/Guinnion rather than matching Whithorn. (See our separate article on Hwiterne in our Allempires forum thread/topic on this.)  Wihtgarasburh of the ASC might possibly be Dover/Guinnion/Hwiterne rather than Carisbrook/Wight, and the name might link with the Picts? The skeleton "Fred" that was found in St Martin le Grand church (and is now in Dover Painted House museum collection) might possibly be the body of Ambrosius or Vortimer or Arthur or Ninnian or Nennius. (The ASC says Ninnian rests in the church at Hwiterne.)
Previously we had thought that the Pictish Palace might be Dover Painted House but this doesn't seem very likely now. The LF says "where his battles are sculpted". Scupltures have a 3-dimensional effect, and the sculptures/paintings of the Painted House have a 3-dimensional effect. "Pictish" could match "Painted". Although the Painted House not longer seems likely to be the Pictish Palace, it may still show that they had such sculptures in Romano-British times in our site's area.
The Round Table at the 'castle of Snowdon' has been described as "he enters some kind of enclosure, which could be a palace but could also be something like a henge with a defined inside and outside space", which is maybe similar to the round house of polished stones of Carausius, and both of these seem similar to the lighthouse at Dover?

The number "18" of this Wonder in the LF could possibly match Guinnion the "8th" battle site?

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2018 at 02:32

12th/13th Wonder is Amr's Tomb or "(Wormlow) Tump".

(Sorry this one is not written very well in various places, and we are abit uncertain as to the correct site of ours (except that the Herefordshire site is certainly pretty weak or only a memory copy of an earlier site).)

"There is another miracle in the region which is called Ercing. A sepulcra is shown near a spring which is given the name 'Licat Amr' / 'Oculus Amirmur' ("Amr’s eye(-spring)"), and the name of the hero who's grave is in the tumulus, it follows, was called Amr. He was the son of Arthur the soldier, and he himself has killed him in that very place and done the burying. And men come to measure the tumulus in length: sometimes it is 6/7 feet; sometimes 9/10; sometimes 12; sometimes 15. For whatever the measurement you will measure it in such a succession, again you will not find it with the same measurement; and even I have made confirmation on my own."
(- "Nennius", 'Historia Britonum' Wonders of Britain section.)

The orthodox traditional candidate site for Amr's Tomb is Wormelow Tump near Gamber Head, or else Garway Hill, in Archenfield in Herefordshire. Their favoured site was leveled by locals in the 20th century. This means that we can not physically check any match now.

Our own candidate site for Amr's Tomb is Countless Stones or Kit's Coty in the Medway area, or else a grave in the Richborough (city of the legion) area. (Maybe even there might be confusion of both like the confusion of Gamber & Humir near Newport in the orthodox candidate area?)

Either we are right that the Wonders were really in the East and the claimed sites in the West are not the real original wonders but are traditional copies of earlier ones in the East or are only modern orthodox candidates, or else orthodox are right that the Wonders were in the West and not in the East like we have thought/believed. We try to show in our Wonders article(s) that there are seeming quality and quantity matches evidences that a number of the Wonders surely do match our sites in the South-East, while the orthodox sites cases are pretty weak.

Never the same measurement(s):
This wonder always having different measurments is similar to Little Kit's Coty House / Countless Stones which consists of "19-21 stones depending on the authority" "of various sizes", and of which it is said "They are known as "The Countless Stones", as it is said that whenever you count the stones, you come up with a different number of stones each time." (- BBC.) "... magic prevents the stones from ever being correctly counted." (- Hawkes). This story might go back to at least 1690. The story is also associated with Coldrum long barrow in the same area but apparently only from much later.
The countless stones story was connected with the Stonehenge as early as 1586. The Medway megaliths are compared with Stonehenge in a number of sources.
There might also be a confusion/conflation with Cruc Mawr which "fits every man" which we show seems to be the large cruciform platform at Richborough.
I am sceptical that the orthodox site very greatly matched the wonder in always having different measurements.

Tomb/sepulchre/tump:
The tomb/sepulchre could match Countless Stones which is a megalithic tomb. (Possibly there might even be a confusion with the supposed Catigern's grave at Kit's Coty? There is a 'Coffin Stone' in the area too.)
For the alternative site Richborough the tomb of Ambrosius or Arthur might be there.
The orthodox site has a tumulus, though there is some seeming uncertainty as to if one in the area matches the wonder ("two likely contenders for the tomb location", "was likely once in" Wormlow Tump, "a possible long barrow on nearby Garway Hill"), and it appears there was no find of Amr in the tomb? Their candidate's overall claim is not any better than or equal to our site's match evidences.
(Possibly the orthodox site being connected with a hill/tumuus/barrow might be an analogous correspondence with our site being connected with Blue Bell Hill?)

Amr/Anir/Amhar/Amhir/Amirmur/Anihar/Anibar/Amren/Gamber:
An important issue here is who is/was (Licat) Amr/Anir the "son of Arthur"? We have a few candidates including: Germanus/Garmon/Armon, Ambrosius/Amresbury (Aureli(an)us), Ambrosius/Emrys/Merlin, Vortimer, Aneirin, Lancelot, Garanhir, Ermenric. These people are more linked with our South-East location rather than with the orthodox West location.
- Vortimer's cenotaph has been suggested by some to have been at Richborough ("the port where the Saxons first landed"). At least one or more of his 4 battles against the Saxons/Jutes were in the Kent or Saxon Shore area not in the west. He is traditionally linked with Kit's Coty not far from Countless Stones.
- Merlin is well-known to be connected with Arthuret and with the Caledonian Wood. The Celidon battle site of Arthur certainly matches the Medway area and the Weald (the Caledonian wood of Caesar's invasion). As with Vortigern, Merlin also has a local traditional claimed association with Chislehurst caves near Reculver. Merlin/Emrys/Ambrosius was associated with Vortigern who was certainly in the South-East.
"Merlin's town Caerleon" is the city of the legion which is Richborough/Rutupi.
Merlin's "Carmarthen" seems to have links with St Martin le Grand of Dover or St Martin's of Canterbury.
- Aneirin survived the battle of Cattraeth in the Y Gododdin, similar to Merlin survived Arthuret? This battle seems to be connected with Guinnion/Badon at Dover?
- Ambrosius (Aurelius) was buried in the Giant's Dance at Ambrius/Ambresbury according to the HRB. This is supposed to be Ambresbury near Salisbury and the Stonehenge, yet the HRB has Vortigern and Hengist and Horsa active in this area. (Some may say "well the Jutes were in Hampshire and Wight", but i think the evidence is in favour of the action being in Kent and Thanet area.) This Ambrius is implied to be near "Winchester" in the HRB, and in Arthurian sources "Winchester"/Guintonhi/Guintguic seems to really be Guinnion (Dover). The Chorea Gigantum "Giant's Dance" "Stonehenge" of the HRB account might be linked with either the Medway megaliths (one source says Kit's Koty was almost as big/famous/great as Stonehenge), or with Cruc Mawr and the large cruciform platform at Richborough, or the Round Table and the amphitheatre at Richborough?
Ambrosius was not in Herefordshire in the far West but was in the far south-east.
- Germanus/Garmon surely was more likely in the south-east than the far west. He is associated with St Alban who is linked with Guinnion and Dover and the Downs and Albion. Germanus has been linked with city of the legion which is Richborough not "Chester".
- Amr/Gamber might be connected with Kamber "Wales" who is associated with Locrin(us) and Albanact in the HRB? Locrinus seems to be connected with the city of the legion and Richborough (eg Lucrinum is corresponded with Rutupi in Juvenal), and Albanact is connected with Guinnion/Alborum and Dover/Albion, so Kamber would seem to be in the same area.
- Anit could mean "old" which would suit the Medway megaliths?
The orthodox site does have an association with a (licat) Gamber/Amr name, though it appears there was no find of Amr in the tomb (and i have not seen any evidence for Amr being in the area in Arthur's time)? Their site's overall claim is not any better than or equal to our site's match evidences.

Ergyng/Erchyng/Ercing / Archenfield/Irchenfield:
Amr's tomb is in "Ercing" or "Archenfield".
There are quite a few of Arthur's battles and Wonders of Britain which the evidences are strong that they match our sites in the south-east but which are linked in the text with place names that supposedly match well-known namesake places in the west or north (Celidon, Linnuis, Hwicce, Guyr, Severn, Loyngarth, Mon(a), Cinlipiuc, Gwent, Buelt, Ercing, Cereticiaun). The evidence suggests that the author of the HB played clever names games, and/or that the later Britons/Welsh had remnant analogous namesakes in Cornwall/Wales/North of original Arthurian sites in the south-east.  Roman christian sources are known for such clever games, remember the example of Gregory's "not Angles but angels".
Irchenfield Forest in Herefordshire might show that Archenfield/Ercing was connected with forest (Weald)?
Archenfield in the west is bordered on one side by the Wye. The Medway has been proposed to mean "mead-coloured Wye or way".
"(St) Dubricius was the 6th century evangelist of Ergyng." "Dubricius Archiepiscopus ... Bishop of Gwent and Eygyng". We showed in our 12 battles paper that bishop & saint "Dubricius of (city of) Legions" is connected with either Mandubracius (Androgeus) or Dubris/Dour/Dover or Durovernum (Canterbury) or Durobrivae (Rochester), which were all in Kent, while the city of the legion certainly matches Richborough/Rutupiae. Dubricius as the chief (arch)bishop of Britain matches the archbishop of Canterbury. Dubricius was at Badon/Bath in the HRB, and this battle was near "Thanet" in that source.
There might possibly be a connection of "Archenfield" with Cad Achren which is the alternative name of Cad Goddeu "the battle of trees". Goddeu has been connected with the battle of Cat Coit Celidon by some scholars (and also by myself). Arthur's battle of Celidon was pretty surely in the Weald, and seemingly probably in the area of Kit's Coty & Coldrum near Aylesford.
Maybe the -field of Archenfield/Urchenesfeld might be connected with the fields of Campus Elleti, Campus Heli, Gai Campi, Campus Lapideus, Maisbeli, Maisuriam, Maes Garmon, field of Leeks which all seem to be connected with the city of the legion and Richborough?
The special location of Archenfield as a border area between the Saxons and the British/Welsh might possibly also be analogous to Medway "midway (between Kentishmen & Men of Kent" or Severn "boundary (line)"?
There is a place Kentchurch within Archenfield.
The "plain of Aegelesthrep" 455 in Ethelwerd?
Archenfield/Urcenevelde might come from the word hericius/urcheon/urchin "hedgehog, urchin" which might match either of our 2 sites.
The orthodox candidate site is in a region with name Ercing, but their site's overall claim is not any better than or equal to our site's matches evidences.

Spring/fountain (or eye) 'Licat Amr' :
I'm not sure if there is or is not a match for the spring in the area of our site Countless Stones or Kit's Coty in the Medway megaliths area.
Sources say that there seemingly may have been a Romano-British temple on Blue Bell Hill, so possibly there could have been a sacred spring/well there?
There are a few springs in the nearby area (including Pilgrim Spring, Haly Garden (Burham), Cossington spring-head, St Stephen chapel, Tottington spring-head).
"... pointing out the proximity of the Coffin Stone, Lower Kit's Coty House and, indeed, Kit’s Coty House, to the then copious spring at
Tottington." (- Paul Ashbee.)
"The area [Cossington spring] is very close to the nearby sites of Kit's Coty House".
"The river Medway and many ancient wells and springs are noted...."?
However, the description of the Wonder says 'juxta' which translations render either "near" or "beside" / "next to", and if it is "beside" / "next to" then these springs can't match (unless Amr's tomb is one of the other monuments closer to the springs), though if it is "near" then it can match (though we can't necessarily prove they were called by a name like 'Licat Amr').
It is possible that "Licat" is connected with the (Little) Kit &/or (Kit's) Coty of "(Little) Kit's Coty (House)", especially since the proposed root *kaitom/keiton might also match with the second word of Licat Amr. (Kit is supposed to be from Catigern son of Vortigern/Vortimer. Kit's Coty may also match the "Cat Coit" of the Celidon battle site of Arthur, and Cad Godeu.) Perhaps compare Chatham which is supposed to be from ceto + ham? (Also maybe compare Lichfield/Liccedfeld from llwyd "grey/brown" + coed "wood"; or Cil-y-coed? Le/Il is "the" in French/Latin.)
For the alternative location candidate Richborough, there was possibly a spring or fountain at Richborough. "There exists an unexplained structure at Richborough that is believed to be a font. Today, this structure is almost entirely destroyed. The hexagonal font discovered...."
Billingsgate mentioned in the HRB might connect with the word Licat, and  this Billingsgate was probably at the city of the legion (founded by Beli).
The HRB seems to imply an important spring at Dover ("St Alban's", "Winchester"), and so it might be possible that our Medway site is wrong and that Amr's tomb is at Dover?
The orthodox site does have a spring/river that might match, though they say "most likely river for it", "other evidence for river name is elusive". Their site's overall case is not any better than or equal to our site's matches evidences.

Arthur the soldier:
This wonder is specifically stated to be connected with (a son of) "Arthur".
Arthur fought the (West) "Saxons" and "specifically Kentishmen", and at the estimated time of Arthur's battles (between Octa & Ida in the HB) these people were mainly only in the south-east quarter of Britain/England on the south-east side of a line drawn between the Wash and the Solent.
It is unlikely that Arthur was fighting invading Saxons way over in Hereford and Wales in the 5th or 6th century, and driving them out of the (is)land (as some traditional Arthurian sources seem to say/imply).
Arthur's 9 battle sites in the HB of Nennius certainly seem to match the 9 Saxon Shore sites from Great Yarmouth to Portsmouth.
Among the chief candidates for the historical original of "Arthur" are Vortimer, and Ethelbert of Kent, who were both in the south-east quarter.
Our site matches both a battle site of Arthur and a Wonder of Britain.
The orthodox candidate site is not associated with a battle site of Arthur like ours is.
The orthodox site's association with the Wonder can not necessarily be proven right back to Arthur's times, while we have shown that ours may be connected with the Arthurian Kit's Coty tradition.

Number/order match:
Our site is not far from other sites that seem to match other Wonders.
Some of the orthodox Wonders of Britain sites in Wales etc are not near to some of their Wonders sites.

Nennius:
The writing of the HB (in which the Wonders are found) has been various ascribed to either Gildas, Nennius, Mark the Anchorite, Beulanus, or Samuel. It is most commonly attributed to Nennius and so we use this as being the most convenient.
Nennius says he visited this Wonder. The HB of Nennius contains both the battles of Arthur, and the Wonders of Britain.
We found that the 9 battle sites of Arthur in the HB of Nennius match the 9 Saxon Shore sites, and we also found that the Wonders of Britain match the same 9 sites.
That the battle sites and wonders both seem to match the same 9 sites seems to give some extra weight support and confirmation that our battle sites (and wonders) sites match is likely right, while the orthodox location candidates which do not also all match both are lesser to ours in this respect.
Since Nennius wrote both the 12 battles and the Wonders sections then surely it is quite possible/reasonable/sensible that Nennius did add the wonders as a semi-secret clue to the battle sites locations.
The orthodox candidate site is not associated with a battle site of Arthur like ours is.
The orthodox Athur's battles and Wonders of Britain location theories have Nennius/Mark and "Arthur" romping all over almost the whole length and breadth of Britain from Loch Lomond and Edinburgh to Lincoln to Bangor and Anglesey to Cardigan to Bath.
I am not convinced by the orthodox claims that Nennius was in the west / Wales and not in Anglo-Saxon territory, because i have not seen anymuch strong evidences given by them for this, and i have seen evidences that Nennius' battle sites and wonders certainly seem to match sites in the South and East.
Some scholars assert that the Wonders are a later addition to the HB. A number of the Wonders certainly seem to match some of our 9 Saxon Shore battle site, so it seems that the Wonders can't just be a later addition, or else the Welsh sites are later memory copies of earlier sites.
Pilgrim's Way in our site's area could possibly connect with Nennius' visit?
Nennius might possibly be connected with Ninnian who was at St Martin's at Hwiterne "white house" which seemingly may match St Martin le Grand at Dover/Guinnion?
The orthodox site's association with the Wonder can not necessarily be proven right back to Nennius'/Mark's times. That their site was leveled by locals also may suggest that the site can't have been considered genuine if they were so ready to demolish it.

"Absence of any mention of Garway in the HB" is possible evidence against the orthodox candidate and for ours.
Could Garway be reminiscent of Harroway?

 -----

I may not be writing-up any more of our Wonders of Britain or battle sites of Arthur because someone in a group had the cheek to say the ones done so far are "long winded" etc, and so i see this is a waste of tim because the ingenuine elite use any and every cunning ingenuine excuse they can to evade/dismiss/ignore.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 13-Jun-2018 at 03:08
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2018 at 09:18

9th/10th Wonder is the Levitating Altar.

"There is another wonder in Guyr - the altar, which is in the place, which is called Loyngarth, which is held up by the will of god. It seems better to me to narrate the history of that altar than to keep silent. But the fact is, while Saint Iltut was worshiping in the cave, which is next to the sea, which laps against the ground at the said place, (the mouth of the cave, also, is on the sea), and, behold, a ship was sailing towards him and two men sailing her and the corpse of a holy man was with them in the boat and the altar over the face of it, which was held up by the will of god and the man of god [Iltut] has advanced in their way and the corpse of the holy man and the altar remained inseparably above/before the face of the holy body. And they have said to saint Iltut: "that man of god has entrusted to us, in order that we might draw that person to you and we might bury him with you, and the name of him you may not reveal to any person, that men may not swear by him." Those two men returned to the ship and they have sailed. But that saint Iltut has established a church around/near the corpse of the holy man and around/near the altar and it continues all the time to this present day the altar is held up by the will of god. A certain minor king has come, in order that he might test, carrying a twig in his hand; he has formed a curve around the altar and he has held the twig by both hands from both sides and he has drawn it to himself in such a way the truth of that thing he has proved and that person afterwards during the month uninjured/untouched died. Another in truth under the altar has looked and the sight of the eyes he has lost and before the month uninjured/untouched his life he has ended."
(- "Nennius", 'Historia Britonum'.)

Possibly connected with:
"Christ gave him [Carannog] an honourable altar from heaven", "the altar which Arthur had thought to convert into a table", "he cast the altar into the [Severn] sea", "it ... landed at the mouth of the Guellit", "12 parts of the land [Carrum] where the altar was found".
(- Vita Carannog.)

Orthodox candidate: The orthodox site is a rock-arch by Knab Rock, & a chapel on/nearby Knab Rock, close to "Bob’s Cave" on Mumbles Head, at Ystum-llwynarth, in Gower, or else Maen Cetti, some seven miles distant, in Gower.
Wilson & Blacket's site is a cave at Ewenny, in Coed y Mwstwr forest.

Our candidate: Our candidate is either (1) the Reculver Cross found at Reculver, or else the altar chamber found at Margate Caves, or the church of the holy cross near both of these, or alternatively (2) an arch or something at Richborough, or else (3) at St Martin le Grand in Dover? (Reculver/Margate is also our candidate for the Bassas battle site of Arthur in the HB of Nennius, and for the Afarnach's Hall battle of Arthur in the Pa Gur. Richborough is our city of the legion battle site of Arthur. Dover is our Guinnion battle site of Arthur.)

We now give our evidences for the Wonder matching one or other of our candidate site :

Levitating Altar (or Arch?) :
The altar in this account is described as "levitating/floating", "supported/held-up (in the air)" "by the will of god", "although the height of a man above the earth", "suspended in the air over face", "stayed/remained inseparably above/over/before the face", "under the altar (has) looked".
This altar seemingly match match the "Reculver Cross and stone base/altar" at our site, or else the "altar chamber" at Margate caves. Though an alternative candidate might be an alleged arch at Richborough, like the orthodox candidate is an arch? Carannog's altar might have been at the city of the legion Richborough. Carrov/Carrum where Carannog's altar was might be connected with the round house of Carausius on the Carun/Carron which has been supposed to match the Pictish Palace which we showed was at either Richborough or Dover.
Our proposed match of the Levitating Altar with the Reculver Cross might be confirmed by
the cross being connected with Iltud at Llantwit in Wales (inscribed "Samson placed his cross here for his soul, the soul of Iltud…")?
The cross is an altar since Jesus is our sacrifice on it. 'Calvary Cross' has 3 steps base which might match "levitating"?
If the mysterious body is connected with "(King) Arthur" as we tentatively suggest, then Arthur is also associated with the cross which he carried at Guinnion &/or Badon (Dover &/or Portchester). The "height of a man" might link with Arthur's real size cross. His cross was possibly also preserved together with the image of Mary at "Wedale" according to the HB 50/56 VR.
The orthodox candidate is "a now-destroyed rock-arch which once stood by Knab Rock", or the dolmen "Arthur's Stone" or Maen Cetti "The Stone of Cetti or the Ark". Both seem pretty doubtful to match the levitating altar, and to have been carried in the boat (though the "ark" is suggestive).

Church match:
The Wonder's description mentions "a Church founded/established around/near/over the corpse/body of the holy man and around/near the altar".
This seemingly may match the monastery-church [of St Mary] built
around the Reculver Cross at our site Reculver, or else the else the
"vicarage holy trinity church" at Margate, or the church of the holy cross near both of these?
"Arthur rests at Baschurch" connects with both Bassas and Reculver (monastery-church), and with the Levitating Altar (mysterious body)?
Afarnach's Hall the 4th battle site of Arthur in the Pa Gur matches Bassas the 3rd battle site of Arthur in the HB, and Reculver the 3rd/4th SS fort in the ND, with the "hall" probably being the basilica or monastery-church at Reculver.
In the list of the 15 children of Brychan, the 6th child Merewenne at Marham church might correspond with Bassas (6th) and Reculver (Margate, monastery-church, St Mary's)?
The church being St Mary's of Reculver might perhaps be confirmed by the mention of the preservation of Arthur's image of St Mary at "Wedale" in the HB 50/56 VR.
Carannog's altar was at Carrov/Carrum which means "monastery" and might match either Reculver (monastery-church) or Richborough.
For the rival orthodox candidate it is said that "a chapel which may have been on Knab Rock or nearby", and/or "neither the cave nor
the church have been identified". Whatever the case, their candidate's overall case is pretty weak. The Wonder's description says the church was built "around/over/near", while the orthodox site the chapel is "nearby/by" the arch which might or might not match depending on whether the original was "around/over" or "near".

Mysterious Body:
Some scholars have said that the mysterious body/corpse of the/a 'sancti hominis' "holy man / man of god" in this Wonder's account may be "(King) Arthur". This might perhaps be confirmed by that the wonder is commonly regarded to be connected with "Arthur's Stone".
We have seen that the Levitating Altar might be Arthur's Cross.
Loyngarth can mean "grove of the bear", and Arthur has been supposed to be connected with arth "bear".
The body taken by 2 men in a boat to Loyngarth is similar to Arthur being taken to Avalon in a boat with 3 women, and/or to the mortally wounded Tewdrig being taken to a chosen burial place on a bier pulled by 2 stags. The 2 men could be Bedivere & Lucan?
Arthur's grave is described as "an eternal wonder is the grave of Arthur" in 'Black Book of Carmarthen', while the levitating altar is also a "wonder".
The "hall on isle of Afallach" that Arthur is taken to rest/sleep in in the Triads is similar to Afarnach's Hall the 4th of 9 battle sites of Arthur in the Pa Gur which matches Bassas the 3rd of 9 battle sites of Arthur in the HB and Reculver the 3rd/4th of 9 SS sites in the ND where is found the Reculver Cross which is our Levitating Altar candidate.
Gwallawg "in Gafra(i)n in retreat of Brecheinawc" in Taliesin seems to correspond with Arthur in Avalon.
Arthur said to rest/sleep at Baschurch, which place-name may match both Bassas and Reculver (monastery-church).
Avalon is in the North Sea in Irish (according to Spanuth).
Arthur's grave is supposedly at "Glastonbury". Reculver has a connection with "former abbot of Glastonbury".
In the 11 Consuls list in the HRB the 4th consul Arthgal of Cargueit may correspond to Bassas in the HB and Reculver in the ND, which might confirm that Arthur/Arthgal has a special connection with our site?
The VR of HB 50/56 says Arthur's [Cross and] image of Mary which he carried at Guinnion/Badon was preserved at 'Vallis Doloris' / "Wedale" in the province of Lodonesia. This might mean that that was where he was buried. Lo(n)donesia could match London. The vallis/dale may match the Wantsum-Stour. "Wedale" 6 miles west of Meilros might be analogous to Reculver some miles north-west of Richborough/Rutupi. (Meil-ros means "bare [or yellow?] + headland / promontory / moor (land)", and it matches the "long sleep of Maelgwn in the court of Rhos", with both seeming to match Rutupi/Richborough. Reculver's name also means "great headland/promontory".)
Some accounts have Arthur dying at/near the City of Lions/Lyonesse which = the City of the Legion which is Richborough/Rutupi not far from our site Reculver. Alternatively, the Sutton Hoo ship burial on the other side of the Thames estuary could be the site of Camlan and Arthur could have been carried across the estuary to Reculver?
We might possibly be wrong though about the mysterious body being Arthur, and that he rested at Reculver, because there are other evidences that Arthur's grave may rather have been at Dover ("Fred" the skeleton found in St Martin le Grand) or at Richborough. Another possibility for the mysterious body is Gildas.
For the orthodox rival L.A. candidate site the identity of the body seems to be a mystery to them, and there doesn't seem much evidence for it being there?
Wilson & Blacket's and/or Hassel's candidate in Wales is associated by them with Arthur's grave, but their Arthur is apparently a later "2nd (Welsh) Arthur". The 9 battle sites of the earlier 1st Arthur certainly match the 9 Saxon Shore sites in the south-east.

Cave/spelunca match:
There are caves in our site's area that could match the cave of this wonder including the caves of Birchington, (the "altar chamber" at) Margate caves, and/or Chislehurst caves.
In the Wonders of Britain the levitating altar comes just after the Wind Hole/cave, and it is possible that the cave in both wonders is the same cave, especially since the cave in the levitating altar story is associated with Iltud, and in the Vita Iltud his dwelling has a similar "blowing wind". The Vita mentions "his arrival to lead the heremitical life in the Hodnant valley". There are a few valleys in Arthurian which seem to all be connected with the same Wantsum-Stour area (eg Vallis Doloris, Valley of Suesia, Vallis Brychan).
Regarding rival orthodox candidate: On one hand it is said that it does have a cave "Bob's Cave" on Mumbles Head, and on other it is said that "neither the cave nor the church have been identified". Even if it does have a cave, their candidate's overall case is weak.
Wilson & Blacket's candidate does have a cave at Ewenny in Coed y Mwstwr forest, but Evans says why their site doesn't match.

Rock:
The orthodox candidate is by/on/nearby Knab Rock (though there is no rock mentioned in the Wonder's account). This might be an analogous copy of an earlier Arthurian site in the South-East.
There is a Black Rock near our site Reculver.
Bass Rock in the Firth of Forth is analogous to our Bassas site Reculver.

Near the sea (ship/boat/ark) :
Our site Reculver/Margate is near the sea similar to the description.
The orthodox site is near the sea (eg Oystermouth bay), but their candidate's overall case is pretty weak.

In 'Loyngarth' (or 'Ystum-llwynarth') :
Loyngarth/Llwynarth is from either llwyn + arth meaning "grove/wood of the bear", or llwyn + garth "grove/bush/scrub hill/enclosure", or llymarch "an oyster".
Our site Reculver and its not far away neighbour Richborough/Rutupi are both famous for oysters there. (Rutupi was corresponded with Lucrinum in Juvenal because both similarly famous for their oysters.)
Rutupiae was "thought to be [in] a wood" in a Roman source.
St Leonard is found in a few places in Kent and Sussex. St Leonards Church at Deal. Parish church of St Leonard in Hythe, Kent. St Leonards / Church in the Wood at Hollington. St Leonard's forest. St Leonard's Church at St Leonards-on-Sea in East Sussex.
Loyngarth might be connected with Camas Longart/Longphort on Loch
Long which seemingly may be an analogous memory copy namesake of Llongborth which may have been at port Rutupi/Richborough.
Arthur has been supposed to be connected with arth "bear", and Arthur's 9 battle sites certainly match the 9 Saxon Shore sites.
The orthodox rival candidate is in Ystum-llwynarth/Llwyngarth/Llygraib "Llwynarth Bend [Bay?]" / Oystermouth bay, the Mumbles, Gower. However, their candidate's overall case is pretty weak. The place name could be an analogous memory copy namesake of an earlier Arthurian site, like some other Welsh and Northern sites are.
Wilson & Blacket's site is in Coed y Mwstwr wood/forest.

In 'Gu(h)yr/Guiher/Guhir/Gubir/Gower':
There are quite a few of Arthur's battles and Wonders of Britain which the evidences are strong that they match our sites in the south-east but which are linked in the text with place names that supposedly match well-known namesake places in the west or north (Celidon, Linnuis, Hwicce, Guyr, Severn, Loyngarth, Mon(a), Cinlipiuc, Gwent, Buelt, Ercing, Cereticiaun, Hwicce). The evidence suggests that the author of the HB played clever names games, and/or that the later Britons/Welsh had remnant analogous namesakes in Cornwall/Wales/North of original Arthurian sites in the south-east.
Guhir/Gwyr is next after "Raglan" in the 12 Monasteries list, and "Raglan" corresponds with Regulbium/Reculver in the ND and Bassas in the HB.
Gower is either Welsh meaning "wedge-shaped piece of land" or "a goat/caper" or "on the right" or "man", or else is a Norman place-name like Gohiere (region north of Paris) or Gouy, which latter is from Roman personal name Gaudius. Kent could fit the wedge-shaped, and the "on the right", and the Norman, and the Roman. Gaudius is similar to Claudius?
Gu(h)yr is similar to the name of the (sub-)king Guoyrancgonus of Kent in Vortigern's time?
Guiher is possibly similar to Guiderius who is connected with the invasion Claudius in Kent?
Guiher is associated with Cetgueli ("Caer Kidwelly in Carmarthenshire"), and with "the sons of Liethali/Bethan", and "Cunedda and his sons" in the HB 14.
Guiher is also maybe similar to Arthgal of Cargueit in the 11 Consuls list in the HRB, which latter may correspond with Bassas and Reculver.
Gower in Wales is a "peninsula"; the orthodox candidate is at "Mumbles Head"; our site Reculver is a "great headland/promontory".
The rival orthodox candidate is in Gower, but their candidate's overall case is pretty weak.
Wilson & Blacket's is in Glamorgan/Gwent.

St Iltud:
"Iltud ordained by Dubricius", "Dyfrig was the confessor of Iltud".
The Arthurian Saint "Dyfrig/Dubricius (bishop) of (city of) Legions" is connected with either Mandubracius (Androgeus) or Dubris/Dover or Durovernum (Canterbury) or Durobrivae (Rochester), while the city of the legion is Richborough/Rutupi.
Another source says Iltud was ordained by Germanus?
Germanus/Garmon (or Germans) more likely in south-east. Germanus has a close connection with St Alban who is linked with the Downs and Dover (Albion). Maes Garmon "field of Germanus" is connected with the battle of the city of the legion, the city of the legion is not "Chester" but Richborough/Rutupi.
The name Iltud might possibly connect with the names Eli, Ely, Electi, Eliseg, Heli, Beli, Eliffer which seem to be connected with the city of the legion and Richborough.
Among the children of Brychan is a Juliana or Ilud, which might link Iltud with Juliot and Julius?
"Samson placed his cross here for his soul, the soul of Iltud…" might link Iltud with the Reculver Cross?

"A certain regulus (petty king)":
The "certain regulus" mentioned in the description could possibly link with the name of Regulbium/Reculver? (Compare "Riculf/Raculf" in the HRB?)
Brychan is called "a certain regulus" in the Vita Cadog. Gwallawg "in Gafra(i)n in retreat of Brecheinawc" in Taliesin is similar to Arthur in Avalon. "Sepulchrum Brychan in Enys Brachan near Mannia" in 'De situ Brecheniauc'. "the valley of Brychan in Mynav" in 'Cognacio Brychan'. Vallis Brachan "looks to be situated in the parish of St. Bride's-super-Ely" and connected with Crucmarc in the Book of Llandav. Birchington nearby Reculver might be connected with Brychan? The vallis/valley matches the Wantsum-Stour. Mannia/Mynav is analogous to either Thanet, or Minnis Bay nearby Reculver, of Ninnian at Hwiterne (Dover/Guinnion). Crucmarc is an alternative name of Cruc Mawr which matches the large cruciform platform at Richborough.

Nennius:
The battles of Arthur and the Wonders of Britain are both written in the same book.
We found that the 9 battle sites of Arthur in the HB of Nennius pretty certainly match the 9 Saxon Shore sites, and we also found that the Wonders of Britain seem to match the same 9 sites.
Surely the fact that the Wonders seem to match the same sites as the battle sites is an intriguing enough coincidence to make people to at least consider that this might mean our matches may be right.
An alleged interpolation in Asser mentions an alleged local tradition that Nennius and some other persons had been at Oxford. In Arthurian literature the original Rhydychen/Richiden/Ridoc/Rico "Ox-ford" seems to match the Wantsum-Stour and Reculver or Richborough. (Reculver is our Bassas battle site of Arthur, the name of which some say might mean "shallow". It may also be the "swelling ford/shallows" of the Wonders.) (Incidentally, there is also an Oxwich bay in Gower.)Thus the tradition might confirm that Nennius was in the area of our site Reculver. ("Bangor" might also be analogous to Reculver/Bassas?)
Nennius might possibly be connnected with Ninnian who the ASC says rests at St Martin's in Hwiterne "white house" which seemingly may match St Martin le Grand at Dover (Guinnion, "white").
Nennius and Arthur are said to have visited some of the Wonders. In the orthodox theory they have Nennius (and Arthur) romping all over the north-west half of Britain from Loch Lomond to Bangor to Anglesey to Cardigan to Buelt to Gower to Gwent to Severn to Bath? (and not in any of the south-east half of Britain.)
The orthodox rival candidate for this Wonder and their candidates for some other Wonders are not associated with any battle site of Arthur as far as i am aware (except that a few are associated with Arthur in Arthurian literature, but they are not proven to match the places that they are supposed to match).
I am not convinced by the orthodox claims that Nennius was in the west / Wales and not in Anglo-Saxon territory, because i have not seen anymuch strong evidences given by them for this, and i have seen evidences that Nennius' battle sites and wonders certainly seem to match sites in the South and East.

Number/order match:
We found that the 9 battle sites of Arthur match the 9 Saxon Shore sites from Yarmouth to Portsmouth all in numbered geographical order, and we found that alot of the Wonders of Britain seem to match the same 9 sites. Our Wonders are all close to each other. For this Wonder, the preceeding and succeeding Wonders also seem to match sites on either side in the set of 9 sites.
If the mysterious body is Arthur then possibly the number 10th could match Camlan/Avalon as 10th after Badon (9th), and Boso of Ridoc the 11th of the 11 Consuls, who may match Bassas/Reculver?
The orthodox Wonders matches have their Wonders matching sites from Loch Lomond in Scotland to Anglesey to Cardigan to the Severn to Hwicce to Bath, though alot of them are in Wales and around the Severn. Some of their Wonders are not close to other Wonders, and their Wonders are not connected with each other (in a same set/list) in any other sources.

Is a "Wonder (of Britian)" :
Our candidate the Reculver Cross qualifies as a "wonder"?
(Arthur's grave is also called "an eternal wonder" in Black Book of Carmarthen.)
Does the orthodox arch or dolmen candidate qualify as a "wonder"?

Is in "(the island of) Britain" (HB 3, 7, 10) :
Our candidate Reculver/Margate is (in Kent) in (island of) Great Britain.
The name Britain/Albion also seems to be especially connected with Dover and the Downs and the Weald in Arthurian and Welsh sources?
The orthodox candidate site is in Gower in s.w. Wales in (Great) Britain.

Is "history" ("Historia Britonum") :
We have found an amazing possible real physical historical match at about the right date.
The orthodox rival candidate maybe also have a possible partial physical match, though their candidate seems abit weaker than ours (eg "neither the cave nor the church have been identified", "...may have been....", "local traditions/legends/rumours").



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 14-Jun-2018 at 09:28
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2018 at 10:08

The 5th Wonder is 'Duo Rig Habren' "the Two Kings of the Severn".

"Another wonder is the Duo Rig Habren, that is the two kings of the Severn. When the sea is flooded to The Teared [the bore] within the mouth of the Severn, two waves of spume separately convene and make war between themselves in the manner of sea-rams and each proceeds to the other and they collide at one another and again withdraw one from another and again they proceed on each Teared [bore]. This they do from the initiation of the world all the way to the present day."
(- "Nennius", Wonders of Britain section of 'Historia Britonum'.)

Perhaps compare:

"The barbarians drive us to the sea: the sea throws us back on the barbarians: thus two modes of death await us, we are either slain or drowned."
(- Gildas, DEB.)

"The sea drives us to the barbarians, and the barbarians drive us back to the sea: thus are we tossed to and fro between two kinds of death, being either drowned or put to the sword."
(- Geoff of Monmouth, HRB.)

Orthodox candidate: The orthodox candidate for this Wonder is at either Upper Parting (& Maisemore), or the Noose (& Hock Cliff), both in the Severn sea/river area.

Our candidate: We have 1/2/3/4/5 possible locations for this Wonder which are: (1) Dover straits (where our Guinnion battle site of Arthur also is), (2) Wantsum-Stour (where our 'city of the legion' and Bassas battle sites of Arthur also are), (3) Sheppey (near our Celidon battle site of Arthur), or (4) Solent (where our Badon battle site of Arthur also is).

Now here are our evidences reasons for this Wonder matching one of our candidates rather than the orthodox candidate in the West:

Name:
The name 'Duo Rig' is possibly similar to the Dubris name of Dover, or to the Durobrivae name of Rochester?
Perhaps compare the name of saint "Dubricius/Dyfrig (bishop) of (city of) legions" in Arthurian sources who we showed surely connects with either Mandubracius (Androgeus of Trinovantum) or Dubris/Dubrae/Dover/Dour or Durovernum/Duroverno/Dorobernia (Canterbury) or Durobrivae/Duroprovae/Durobrobis/Duroprovis/Daroprovis/Durobrivis/Durobris (Rochester).
Maybe also compare that one source has Dubglas as Duoglas?
We might also possibly compare the name of the Durotriges of Durnovaria/Durononvaria/Dorchester/Dorset?

2 waves colliding (& moving away) :
The 2 crashing sea-rams/waves seeming might well match the straits of Dover where 2 seas meet from each side? Or else it could match the Wantsum-Stour which usd to be a small strait between Kent and Thanet; or could match the small strait between Sheppey and Kent?
However, this wonder's waves might rather be connected with the next wonder Lynn Liuan. The 2 waves colliding and moving away might match Ebbsfleet where "all the water in the channel twice daily moves away", and "the wandering wave of Ocean and the storms of the Rutupine shores" mentioned in Lucan, and the "9th wave Peryddon" where Gawain/Gwalchmai was buried (at Rutupi or Dover according to sources).
Alternatively, the 2 crashing sea-rams/waves could match Hamble "where the tides of Britain meet" (according to Bede), near Portsmouth/Southampton, and/or could match the Solent between Hampshire and Wight where the sea meets from two openings on either side? (There is also "the Test & the Arun" in that area too, but this doesn't seem likely to match.)

Sea-rams:
Ramsgate near Richborough? (Though its name is supposed to be from ravens.)
Sheppey "sheep isle" near Rochester?
Perhaps compare the "white horses of Solway" which might be analogous to the Solent?
Also possibly compare that the Jutes of Kent were called "sea wolves/dogs", and they had a white horse symbol?

"From the beginning of world" match:
The words "from beginning of world" could perhaps match that the North Sea / English channel / Dover straits dates back to prehistoric stone age times?

Two Kings warring:
The "2 (crashing) kings" might not just be 2 waves colliding but might also possibly be actual kings battle(s) cleverly combined in by Nennius? Our sites Dover and Richborough/Rutupi are particularly connected with confrotations that seemingly may well match this, eg invading Romans vs Britons, Britons/Welsh vs invading Saxons, Vortigern vs Ambrosius, Britain/England vs France/Europe?
We showed in our 12 battles of Arthur articles that the 9 battle sites of Arthur certainly match the 9 Saxon Shore sites from Great Yarmouth to Portsmouth. Arthur's greatest battles were his 5th/8th at Guinnion (Badon 1) which is Dover, and his 9th/12th at Badon (Badon 2) which is Portchester. We also showed that Arthur versus Lucius Tiberius battle may have been at the city of the legion Richborough.
Portchester/Southampton in central south England is also about half way between the Welsh west & English east.
(We considered if the two 'Rig' "kings" might be connected with Rhegin/Regnum/Regni near Portchester, but it seems doubtful.)
 The two quotes from Gildas & HRB that we gave at the start seem to support that this wonder combines waves and kings, and that was in the south-east (where the "barbarians" were invading).

"The Severn":
The one main point that arch-critics will be disagreeing with our candidate because of it is that "Severn" surely can only be the known river Severn in the South-West of Britain.
There are quite a few of Arthur's battles and Wonders of Britain which the evidences are strong that they match our sites in the south-east but which have only one problem that are linked in the text with place names that supposedly match well-known namesake places in the west or north (Celidon, Linnuis, Hwicce, Guyr, Severn, Loyngarth, Mon(a), Cinlipiuc, Gwent, Buelt, Ercing, Cereticiaun). The evidence suggests that the author of the HB played clever names games, and/or that the later Britons/Welsh had remnant analogous namesakes in Cornwall/Wales/North of original Arthurian sites in the south-east.
There are evidences in Arthurian and "Welsh" traditions and literature that the Severn/Sabre/Sabren/Sabrina/Sabrain/Habren was used for more/other waters around Britain than just the known river Severn. One possible example is "the seven mouths of the Severn" in the prophecy of Merlin in the HRB?
"The name Severn might have been the name for the bore". (It is said that the Severn has the 2nd highest tidal range in the world. Perhaps compare the "high British tides" in Caesar's invasion? Could Severn/Sabrina/Habren possibly be connected with Ebbian which some dreived Ebbsfleet from?)
Sabrina was "drowned" in the Severn (in the HRB), which might match that some have connected Bassas with the "part of who were drowned" at Kaerlindcoit in the HRB, and might match the many who perished in the sea at "Creta" in 431 in the ASC E version, and with the many drowned in the sea by Thanet in 854 in Ethelwerd and Asser. (Bassas is Reculver. "Creta" seems to be the Thanet area.) There might be a possibility that Sabrina/Severn comes from Cassibellaun or Caesar, since some of the accounts say that alot of Caesar's men drowned in the Thames invasion? The Severn being a river/mouth/estuary and valley and sea and crossing might match the Wantsum-Stour.
This 5th wonder Duo Rig Habren and the next 6th wonder Lynn Liuan are both connected with the Severn, which may mean that they are both near each other.
In the HRB Sabrina (the Severn) is a close associate of Locrin/Locrinus/Loegria and Estrildis and Guendoloena.
Loegria/Logres seems to be connected with either the city of the legion (Richborough) or with London/Londres. The city of the legion is confirmed to be "near the Severn" in the HRB (though this is only possible supporting evidence and doesn't prove anything because Caerleon in Wales is not far from the Severn).
Locrin(us) connects with lake Lucrinus/Lucrinum which is linked with Rhutupi in Juvenal (being both similarily famous for their oysters).
Locrin(us) was killed at river Sture which might match the river Stour by Richborough/Rutupi (city of the legion). (Incidentally, the western Severn is also associated with a Stourton / Stourbridge / Stourport near Worcester, which could possibly be an analogous memory of our earlier Severn and Stour in the east?)
Guendoloena seems to be connected with Guinnion/Dover.
Estrildis was "white" which seems to link her with Dover/Guinnion?
The Severn is said to be the border between Kamber/Wales and Locrin/Loegria/England, and a claimed etymology of the name Severn is saefren "boundary line". In Arthurian times the boundary between the Britons/Welsh and Romans or Saxons was further east. (Some say Medway is "midway between Kentishmen and men of Kent". The 2 banks of Severn might be on two sides of the island?)
Severn might have been connected with Severus. The 9 emperors list in the HB seemingly might have a match with the 9 battle sites of Arthur, and Severus the 3rd emperor who is closely associated with Bassianus may correspond with the 3rd battle site Bassas which is Reculver. Severus also built a wall which might link with the "boundary" meaning of Severn? (Tacitus mentioned Sabrina in circa 70/98-117 before Severus of 193-211 though so it might not be possible, though it still looks possible that the Arthurian sources did do a conflation of the names.)
A 'Sevira' is associated with Vortigern in the pillar of Eliseg.
There is also a Segerus associated with Germanus and Partick, which seems to point to the south-east of Britain.
Maybe the "Severn" could even possibly have been a connection with Sebert of Essex?
Habren is possibly similar to Hibernia/Hiberius which seems to have been used for the Thanet area.
Habren of the Wonder is similar to the Hamble of Bede?
The Severn has its source at Plinlimmon, and we showed in our write-up on the Loch Lumonoy wonder that the Arthurian Plinlimmon seems to be connected with Dover and Lemanis?

Number/order match:
This wonder is the 5th wonder, which might possibly match Dover which is Guinnion the 5th battle site of Arthur.
The next, 6th wonder is the Lynn Liuan which seems to match Richborough which is the 'city of the legion' the 6th battle site of Arthur.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 15-Jun-2018 at 10:11
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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