Wonders of Britain

The 6th Wonder is Lynn Liuan.

"There is another wonder: it is the confluence of Linn Liuan; the mouth of that river flows into the Severn, and when both the Severn is flooded to The Teared [the bore], and the sea is flooded similarly into the aforementioned mouth of the river, both it is received into the lake/pool of the mouth in the mode of a whirlpool and the sea does not advance up. And a bank/shore exists near the river, and so long as the Severn is flooded to The Teared [the bore] that bank/shore is not covered, and when the sea and Severn ebbs, at that time lake Liuan vomits all that it has devoured from the sea and both that bank/shore is covered and in the likeness of a mountain in one wave it spews and bursts. And if there was the army of the whole region, in the midst of where it is, and it directed its face against the wave, even the army the wave carries off through the force, by fluid full clothes. If, on the other hand, the backs of the army were turned against it, the same wave doesn't harm, and when the sea may have ebbed, then the entire bank, which the wave covers, backwards is bared and the sea recedes from it."
(- Nennius, 'Historia Britonum')

"He told him likewise of another pond in Wales, near the Severn, called by the country people Linligwan, into which when the sea flows, it receives it in the manner of a gulf, but so as to swallow up the tide, and never be filled, or have its banks covered by it. But at the ebbing of the sea, it throws out the waters which it had swallowed, as high as a mountain, and at last dashes and covers the banks with them. In the meantime, if all the people of that country should stand near with their faces towards it, and happened to have their clothes sprinkled with the dashing of the waves, they would hardly, if at all, escape being swallowed up by the pond. But with their backs towards it, they need not fear being dashed, though they stood upon the very banks."
(- Geoff of Monmouth, HRB.)

"There is a lake near the Severn, called the Lake of Llion, which swallows all the water that flows into it at the tide of flood, without any visible increase; but at the tide of ebb, it swells up like a mountain, and pours its waters over its banks, so that whoever stands near it at this time, must run the risk of being overwhelmed."
(- "Arthur" / British Chronicle(s) / Myv. Arch.)

The orthodox location candidate: "no one knows where this is", "suggestions" include a "likely" site and "an alternative" site.

Our own location candidate is in the Richborough/Ebbsfleet area. Richborough/Rutupi is the site of the 'city of the legion' battle site of Arthur.

Here are our matches evidences/reasons:

Same number/order:
Linn Liuan is 6th of 13 Wonders.
Leominster & Lann Llieni is the 6th of 12 Monasteries.
City of the Legion is the 6th of 9 battle sites.
Legecester is the 5th of 11 Consuls.
Richborough/Rutupi (legio Augusta) is the 5th of 9 Saxon Shore sites.

The name Liuan/Ligwan is may be similar to name Legion?

The "army of the whole region" mentioned in the Wonder's description might link with the legion of the 'city of the legion' Rutupi/Richborough.

Linn Liuan is confirmed to be associated with the city of the legion or city of lions via the 12 Monasteries list which has Leominster linked with Lann Llieni. It also seems to be confirmed to be near the city of the legion by the analogous "Caerleon between Aber Gwy & Linn Lliwan" in Wales.

The nature of this wonder re the "ebbing" and/or "waves" seems to probably match the Ebbsfleet area. Some say that the name Ebbsfleet might be from word ebbian with regard to "all the water in the channel twice daily moves away".
There is also "the wandering wave of Ocean and the storms of the Rutupine shores" mentioned in Lucan.
This is similar to the "9th wave Peryddon" where Gawain/Gwalchmai was buried, and the sources do say that Gawain died at Rutupi/Richborough (or alternatively at Dover).
Some versions of Caesar's invasion say that his ships were wrecked and/or shattered. (In the accounts this is not the same incident as the other one about the pikes/stakes in the Thames.) An orthodox article on Caesar's 1st invasion confirms there were "adverse winds", "storms in sight of beach head", "high British tides & a storm", "beached ships filled with water", "some ships were wrecked", "several days of storms". (The 9th wave Perddon might link with the 9th hour of Caesar's invasion?)

Our match seems to be confirmed by that this wonder is one of the 4 wonders which fairly-certainly seem to match the city of the legion Richborough which all happen to be the same as the 4 wonders that are omitted in the Irish version. It seems somewhat of a coincidence that the 4 wonders omitted in the Irish version are all ones that seem to match the same place.

The part about the faces or backs to the water seems quite likely to possibly be connected with invading and defending parties in the invasions of the Romans and Saxons in the Richborough/Ebbsfleet area?

Seeming confirmation that Lynn Liuan is connected with the city of the legion is also seen in that Lynn Liuan has been conneceted with river Leveney / Langors(e) which is associated with an ancient/past city which was swallowed-up by high waves (compare the waves of Lynn Liuan). This "city" of which there is no trace there at that traditional Welsh site is surely a memory of a city elsewhere, and it is similar to the City of Lions/Lyonesse, and we see that the remembered "city" seems to be the city of the legion Richborough/Rutupi where we place the original Lynn Liuan.

The wonder is confirmed to be connected with Arthur in the HRB. Arthur fought Saxons, and at the estimated time of Arthur's battles the Saxons were mainy only in the south-east quarter/half of England/Britain. He is thus unlikely to have been fighting Saxons in the lower Severn area. We show in our 12 Battles articles/papers that Arthur's 9 battle sites certainly seem to match the 9 Saxon Shore sites.

One remaining major doubt of critics and sceptics will be that this wonder is mentioned in connection with the "Severn" which they will adamantly assert can only be the one known river Severn in the west. However, there are evidences in Arthurian and "Welsh" traditions and literature that the Severn/Sabre/Sabrina/Sabrain/Habren was used for more/other waters around Britain than just the known river Severn. One possible example is "the seven mouths of the Severn" in the prophecy of Merlin in the HRB?
"The name Severn might have been the name for the bore" [or a wall of water or flood or drowning?]
In the HRB Sabrina (the Severn) is a close associate of Locrin(us) and Estrildis and Guendoloena.
Loegria/Logres seems to be connected with either the city of the legion or with London/Londres. The city of the legion is confirmed to be "near the Severn" in the HRB (though this is only possible supporting evidence and doesn't prove anything because Caerleon in Wales is not far from the Severn).
Locrin(us) connects with lake Lucrinus/Lucrinum which is linked with Rhutupi in Juvenal (being both similarily famous for their oysters). (There is also a Leucarum nearby an analogous "Lynn Liuan" site in the west.)
Locrin(us) was killed at river Sture which might match the river Stour by Richborough/Rutupi.
Guendoloena seems to be connected with Guinnion/Dover.
Estrildis was "white" which seems to link her with Dover/Guinnion?
(Incidentally, the western Severn is also associated with a Stourton / Stourbridge / Stourport near Worcester, which could possibly be an analogous memory of our earlier Severn and Stour in the east?)
The Severn is said to be the border between Kamber/Wales and Locrin/Loegria/England, and a claimed etymology of the name Severn is saefren "boundary line". In Arthurian times the boundary between the Britons/Welsh and Romans or Saxons was further east.
Severn might have been connected with Severus. The 9 emperors list in the HB seemingly might have a match with the 9 battle sites of Arthur, and Severus the 3rd emperor is closely associated with Bassianus and may correspond with 3rd battle site Bassas which is Reculver. Severus also built a wall which might link with the "boundary" meaning of Severn? (Tacitus mentioned Sabrina in ca 70/98-117 before Severus of 193-211 though so it might not be possible, though it still looks possible that the Arthurian sources did a conflation of the names.)
A 'Sevira' is associated with Vortigern in the pillar of Eliseg.
There is also a Segerus associated with Germanus and Partick which seems to point to the south-east of Britain.
Maybe there could even possibly have been a connection with Sebert of Essex?

Linn/lake/stagnum/pond/pool/gulf match?
Evans said that linn was not used for coastal areas. However this is not true because there are examples of place-names with linn in them nearby coasts. The first word aber can mean "estuary, mouth of river at coast" (though it can also/alternatively mean "confluence").
The lake Lucrinus or Lucrine lake/lagoon is linked with Rutupi in Juvenal, which suggests that there was a similar feature at the latter site.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 08-Jun-2018 at 13:36

Your favoured site is not on the summit of a mountain/hill though - an important feature in all the descriptions (Nennius/Gerald) and your comparisons with Patrick/Germanus.

The Pictish Palace is an extra Wonder of Britain that is found in the version of the Wonders of Britain in the Liber Floridus but is not in the original Wonders of Britain list in the Historia Britonum of "Nennius".

( You can see more about the 'Liber Floridus' version of the Wonders of Britain here:
http://users.clas.ufl.edu/jshoaf/LiberFMarvels.html
http://users.clas.ufl.edu/jshoaf/LiberFloridus.html
http://people.clas.ufl.edu/jshoaf/2014/07/10/pictish-arthur/ .)

"The Pictish palace of Arthur the soldier, where his 12 battles against the Saxons are sculpted."
(- Lambert of St Omer, 'Liber Floridus'.)

"... a palace was erected, perhaps by Arthur or perhaps as his tomb (descriptions of tombs were a common poetic endeavor), and on it were sculpted and painted his battles."
(- Judy Shoaf.)

"The emperor Carausius ... built also a round house (domun rotundam) with/of polished stones (politis lapidibus) on the bank(s) of the River Carun [Carron]...."
(- "Nennius", 'Historia Britonum' 23 gloss.)

"the Roman temple which was known as early as 1293 as the Oven of Arthur, for it too was round and made of polished stones and lay near the River Carron."
(- 1293 / Dr Steer of the Ancient Monuments Commission / Loomis?)

Orthodox location candidate: This Wonder has been thought by some to be the same as the "round house of polished stones on the banks of the Carun/Carron" of Carausius mentioned elsewhere in the HB, with the latter being considered to be Arthur's Oven at Stenhousmuir (10-12 miles from Stirling) which is a Roman temple. The only reason for this seems to be because of the Wonder's "Pictish" name (and maybe also that they might have got the impression that the palace with the sculpture(s) of the 12 battles is round?)
Alternatively, Adam Ardrey apparently suggested that the Pictish Palace is at Carpow fort near Perth (which is also his candidate location for the Bassas battle site of Arthur)?

Our site: In my own view, since the 9 battle sites of Arthur certainly seem to match the 9 Saxon Shore sites (and since the Wonders of Britain also seem to match the same 9 SS sites too), we think that the Pictish Palace seems to probably match either a building at Dover (Guinnion in the HB, Eidyn in the PG, Arddunion of Gwallawg) or at Richborough/Rutupi (Legionis in the HB, Dissethach in the PG, Gwensteri of Gwallawg). This opinion is supported by the text saying "of Arthur the soldier, where his 12 battles against the Saxons are sculpted".

We will now give our seeming-possible matches-evidences for each of our two candidates. (We are not sure which of the sites/buildings is the correct/best match so we give the matches evidences for both.)

"Pictish":
Before we look at our 2 candidates, first we must mention that the label "Pictish" does not mean it was in Scotland.
Arthur is not Pictish except only in a few late sources like the LF. 'Dux Pictorum' of the L.F. resembles 'Dux Bellorum' of the HB, and 'Dux Britanniarum' of the ND.
Arthur didn't fight Scots or Picts except in few late sources like the HRB. "No source before Geoffrey of Monmouth says that Arthur fought Scots/Picts". (Though the Halleluyah victory of Germanus against "Saxons and Picts" might possibly match the 1st battle of Arthur's 12 battles?)
The word "Picts" has been used for other Britons other than just the Scottish Picts. "…the Britanni of South Britain were also occasionally called Caledonii and Picti...." - James Paterson, 'Origin of the Scots and the Scottish Language'.
Picts and Britons were both supposed to be similarily painted (blue).
Cruithne and Britain have been thought to be related P & Q Celtic versions of same name.
The Britons that Caesar fought were said to be like Picts in one source. "in a panegyric delivered in 297, appears the earliest extant mention of the Picts (Picti). The anonymous author makes a poetic reference to Julius Caesar having had a relatively easy task invading Britain, since his opponents were: "... primitive and used only to foes as yet half-naked, like the Picts and the Irish [Hiberni] ..."."
The sylva Caledonia of Caesar's invasion in Florus etc is agreed to surely be the Weald. The name Caledonian(s) might originate from the Catuvellauni or Camulodunum (in Caesar's invasion)?
The mountain Sidh Chailleann / Schiehallion "fairy hill of the Caledonians" in Scotland is an analogous namesake copy memory of the earlier Dover/Guinnion site of Arthurian times.
The "Southern Picts" of Hwiterne in the ASC seem to be connected with Dover (see more on this below).
The word Pict(s) might be connected with Wihtgar(asburh) "Wight" of the ASC which might be connected with Guinnion "white people".

"Arthur the solider", and "12 battles against the Saxons":
Arthur is stated in sources to have fought Saxons. At the estimated time of Arthur's battles (between Octa and Ida) the Saxons were mainly only in the south-east half of England/Britain, on the south-east side of a line from the Wash to the Solent (or "from the Humber to Devon" in the opinion of orthodox critics).
In our 12 battles of Arthur articles we show that the 9 battle sites of Arthur's 12 battles certainly seem to match the 9 Saxon Shore sites from Great Yarmouth to Portsmouth.
So this Arthurian wonder like other Arthurian sites can not be in the far North, and must be in the South-East half of Britain.

(Pictish) Palace:
Richborough/Rutupi (city of the legion) candidate: A possible match for the Pictish Palace at Richborough is the building/monument over the large cruciform platform. It is possible that the sculpture(s) of the 12 battles could have been divided/grouped into 3 battles in each of the 4 walls/arms of the cruciform building? This building has been suggested by some scholars to have been a monument to Agricola's victory of Mons Graupius (which could match this wonder's "Pictish" name). Sources say that the building was "faced with Italian marbles", which is similar to Malory's "great white palace of white marble" at Camelot (which could match this wonder's "palace" title), and which is maybe similar to the "round house of polished stones (politis lapidibus)" of Carausius, and also maybe vaguely similar to the "sculpted" of this Wonder?
(Carausius' house of stones was round though which seemingly may not match the platform at Richborough which is cruciform, though the "round" house could possibly still fit. Richborough is also said to have been a base of Carausius. The name Carausius might even be a British version of Claudius?)
 There might also be a connection with the "brazen pyramid" cenotaph of Vortimer which some think was at Richborough (since the HB & HRB say it that was supposed to be at "the port where the Saxons first landed"). The "pyramid" could match 4 x 3 battles sculptures. Arthur's name might be from Gwrthefyr/Vortimer.

Dover (Guinnion) candidate: Our possible candidate for the Pictish Palace at Dover is the church of St Martin le Grand. The name of this church might be connected with Arthur's battle(s). Leon Mintz's paper gave tentative evidence of links between Arthur/Merlin & Ares/Mars (war god) & St Martin. Pictures show that part of church had a cross-top shape like C|- and it is possible that the walls could have shown the 3 x 3/4 battles/sites of Arthur on the 3 main wings walls or on the circular part's wall (like the round house of Carausius theory). St Martin le Grand at Dover (Guinnion "white fort") may match the church of St Martin at Hwiterne "white house" of Ninnian and the "Southern Picts" in the 560 entry of the ASC. This site Hwiterne is usually supposed to be Whithorn in Galloway but some of the details seem to better match Dover/Guinnion rather than matching Whithorn. (See our separate article on Hwiterne in our Allempires forum thread/topic on this.)  Wihtgarasburh of the ASC might possibly be Dover/Guinnion/Hwiterne rather than Carisbrook/Wight, and the name might link with the Picts? The skeleton "Fred" that was found in St Martin le Grand church (and is now in Dover Painted House museum collection) might possibly be the body of Ambrosius or Vortimer or Arthur or Ninnian or Nennius. (The ASC says Ninnian rests in the church at Hwiterne.)
Previously we had thought that the Pictish Palace might be Dover Painted House but this doesn't seem very likely now. The LF says "where his battles are sculpted". Scupltures have a 3-dimensional effect, and the sculptures/paintings of the Painted House have a 3-dimensional effect. "Pictish" could match "Painted". Although the Painted House not longer seems likely to be the Pictish Palace, it may still show that they had such sculptures in Romano-British times in our site's area.
The Round Table at the 'castle of Snowdon' has been described as "he enters some kind of enclosure, which could be a palace but could also be something like a henge with a defined inside and outside space", which is maybe similar to the round house of polished stones of Carausius, and both of these seem similar to the lighthouse at Dover?

The number "18" of this Wonder in the LF could possibly match Guinnion the "8th" battle site?

9th/10th Wonder is the Levitating Altar.

"There is another wonder in Guyr - the altar, which is in the place, which is called Loyngarth, which is held up by the will of god. It seems better to me to narrate the history of that altar than to keep silent. But the fact is, while Saint Iltut was worshiping in the cave, which is next to the sea, which laps against the ground at the said place, (the mouth of the cave, also, is on the sea), and, behold, a ship was sailing towards him and two men sailing her and the corpse of a holy man was with them in the boat and the altar over the face of it, which was held up by the will of god and the man of god [Iltut] has advanced in their way and the corpse of the holy man and the altar remained inseparably above/before the face of the holy body. And they have said to saint Iltut: "that man of god has entrusted to us, in order that we might draw that person to you and we might bury him with you, and the name of him you may not reveal to any person, that men may not swear by him." Those two men returned to the ship and they have sailed. But that saint Iltut has established a church around/near the corpse of the holy man and around/near the altar and it continues all the time to this present day the altar is held up by the will of god. A certain minor king has come, in order that he might test, carrying a twig in his hand; he has formed a curve around the altar and he has held the twig by both hands from both sides and he has drawn it to himself in such a way the truth of that thing he has proved and that person afterwards during the month uninjured/untouched died. Another in truth under the altar has looked and the sight of the eyes he has lost and before the month uninjured/untouched his life he has ended."
(- "Nennius", 'Historia Britonum'.)

Possibly connected with:
"Christ gave him [Carannog] an honourable altar from heaven", "the altar which Arthur had thought to convert into a table", "he cast the altar into the [Severn] sea", "it ... landed at the mouth of the Guellit", "12 parts of the land [Carrum] where the altar was found".
(- Vita Carannog.)

Orthodox candidate: The orthodox site is a rock-arch by Knab Rock, & a chapel on/nearby Knab Rock, close to "Bob’s Cave" on Mumbles Head, at Ystum-llwynarth, in Gower, or else Maen Cetti, some seven miles distant, in Gower.
Wilson & Blacket's site is a cave at Ewenny, in Coed y Mwstwr forest.

Our candidate: Our candidate is either (1) the Reculver Cross found at Reculver, or else the altar chamber found at Margate Caves, or the church of the holy cross near both of these, or alternatively (2) an arch or something at Richborough, or else (3) at St Martin le Grand in Dover? (Reculver/Margate is also our candidate for the Bassas battle site of Arthur in the HB of Nennius, and for the Afarnach's Hall battle of Arthur in the Pa Gur. Richborough is our city of the legion battle site of Arthur. Dover is our Guinnion battle site of Arthur.)

We now give our evidences for the Wonder matching one or other of our candidate site :

Levitating Altar (or Arch?) :
The altar in this account is described as "levitating/floating", "supported/held-up (in the air)" "by the will of god", "although the height of a man above the earth", "suspended in the air over face", "stayed/remained inseparably above/over/before the face", "under the altar (has) looked".
This altar seemingly match match the "Reculver Cross and stone base/altar" at our site, or else the "altar chamber" at Margate caves. Though an alternative candidate might be an alleged arch at Richborough, like the orthodox candidate is an arch? Carannog's altar might have been at the city of the legion Richborough. Carrov/Carrum where Carannog's altar was might be connected with the round house of Carausius on the Carun/Carron which has been supposed to match the Pictish Palace which we showed was at either Richborough or Dover.
Our proposed match of the Levitating Altar with the Reculver Cross might be confirmed by
the cross being connected with Iltud at Llantwit in Wales (inscribed "Samson placed his cross here for his soul, the soul of Iltud…")?
The cross is an altar since Jesus is our sacrifice on it. 'Calvary Cross' has 3 steps base which might match "levitating"?
If the mysterious body is connected with "(King) Arthur" as we tentatively suggest, then Arthur is also associated with the cross which he carried at Guinnion &/or Badon (Dover &/or Portchester). The "height of a man" might link with Arthur's real size cross. His cross was possibly also preserved together with the image of Mary at "Wedale" according to the HB 50/56 VR.
The orthodox candidate is "a now-destroyed rock-arch which once stood by Knab Rock", or the dolmen "Arthur's Stone" or Maen Cetti "The Stone of Cetti or the Ark". Both seem pretty doubtful to match the levitating altar, and to have been carried in the boat (though the "ark" is suggestive).

Church match:
The Wonder's description mentions "a Church founded/established around/near/over the corpse/body of the holy man and around/near the altar".
This seemingly may match the monastery-church [of St Mary] built
around the Reculver Cross at our site Reculver, or else the else the
"vicarage holy trinity church" at Margate, or the church of the holy cross near both of these?
"Arthur rests at Baschurch" connects with both Bassas and Reculver (monastery-church), and with the Levitating Altar (mysterious body)?
Afarnach's Hall the 4th battle site of Arthur in the Pa Gur matches Bassas the 3rd battle site of Arthur in the HB, and Reculver the 3rd/4th SS fort in the ND, with the "hall" probably being the basilica or monastery-church at Reculver.
In the list of the 15 children of Brychan, the 6th child Merewenne at Marham church might correspond with Bassas (6th) and Reculver (Margate, monastery-church, St Mary's)?
The church being St Mary's of Reculver might perhaps be confirmed by the mention of the preservation of Arthur's image of St Mary at "Wedale" in the HB 50/56 VR.
Carannog's altar was at Carrov/Carrum which means "monastery" and might match either Reculver (monastery-church) or Richborough.
For the rival orthodox candidate it is said that "a chapel which may have been on Knab Rock or nearby", and/or "neither the cave nor
the church have been identified". Whatever the case, their candidate's overall case is pretty weak. The Wonder's description says the church was built "around/over/near", while the orthodox site the chapel is "nearby/by" the arch which might or might not match depending on whether the original was "around/over" or "near".

Mysterious Body:
Some scholars have said that the mysterious body/corpse of the/a 'sancti hominis' "holy man / man of god" in this Wonder's account may be "(King) Arthur". This might perhaps be confirmed by that the wonder is commonly regarded to be connected with "Arthur's Stone".
We have seen that the Levitating Altar might be Arthur's Cross.
Loyngarth can mean "grove of the bear", and Arthur has been supposed to be connected with arth "bear".
The body taken by 2 men in a boat to Loyngarth is similar to Arthur being taken to Avalon in a boat with 3 women, and/or to the mortally wounded Tewdrig being taken to a chosen burial place on a bier pulled by 2 stags. The 2 men could be Bedivere & Lucan?
Arthur's grave is described as "an eternal wonder is the grave of Arthur" in 'Black Book of Carmarthen', while the levitating altar is also a "wonder".
The "hall on isle of Afallach" that Arthur is taken to rest/sleep in in the Triads is similar to Afarnach's Hall the 4th of 9 battle sites of Arthur in the Pa Gur which matches Bassas the 3rd of 9 battle sites of Arthur in the HB and Reculver the 3rd/4th of 9 SS sites in the ND where is found the Reculver Cross which is our Levitating Altar candidate.
Gwallawg "in Gafra(i)n in retreat of Brecheinawc" in Taliesin seems to correspond with Arthur in Avalon.
Arthur said to rest/sleep at Baschurch, which place-name may match both Bassas and Reculver (monastery-church).
Avalon is in the North Sea in Irish (according to Spanuth).
Arthur's grave is supposedly at "Glastonbury". Reculver has a connection with "former abbot of Glastonbury".
In the 11 Consuls list in the HRB the 4th consul Arthgal of Cargueit may correspond to Bassas in the HB and Reculver in the ND, which might confirm that Arthur/Arthgal has a special connection with our site?
The VR of HB 50/56 says Arthur's [Cross and] image of Mary which he carried at Guinnion/Badon was preserved at 'Vallis Doloris' / "Wedale" in the province of Lodonesia. This might mean that that was where he was buried. Lo(n)donesia could match London. The vallis/dale may match the Wantsum-Stour. "Wedale" 6 miles west of Meilros might be analogous to Reculver some miles north-west of Richborough/Rutupi. (Meil-ros means "bare [or yellow?] + headland / promontory / moor (land)", and it matches the "long sleep of Maelgwn in the court of Rhos", with both seeming to match Rutupi/Richborough. Reculver's name also means "great headland/promontory".)
Some accounts have Arthur dying at/near the City of Lions/Lyonesse which = the City of the Legion which is Richborough/Rutupi not far from our site Reculver. Alternatively, the Sutton Hoo ship burial on the other side of the Thames estuary could be the site of Camlan and Arthur could have been carried across the estuary to Reculver?
We might possibly be wrong though about the mysterious body being Arthur, and that he rested at Reculver, because there are other evidences that Arthur's grave may rather have been at Dover ("Fred" the skeleton found in St Martin le Grand) or at Richborough. Another possibility for the mysterious body is Gildas.
For the orthodox rival L.A. candidate site the identity of the body seems to be a mystery to them, and there doesn't seem much evidence for it being there?
Wilson & Blacket's and/or Hassel's candidate in Wales is associated by them with Arthur's grave, but their Arthur is apparently a later "2nd (Welsh) Arthur". The 9 battle sites of the earlier 1st Arthur certainly match the 9 Saxon Shore sites in the south-east.

Cave/spelunca match:
There are caves in our site's area that could match the cave of this wonder including the caves of Birchington, (the "altar chamber" at) Margate caves, and/or Chislehurst caves.
In the Wonders of Britain the levitating altar comes just after the Wind Hole/cave, and it is possible that the cave in both wonders is the same cave, especially since the cave in the levitating altar story is associated with Iltud, and in the Vita Iltud his dwelling has a similar "blowing wind". The Vita mentions "his arrival to lead the heremitical life in the Hodnant valley". There are a few valleys in Arthurian which seem to all be connected with the same Wantsum-Stour area (eg Vallis Doloris, Valley of Suesia, Vallis Brychan).
Regarding rival orthodox candidate: On one hand it is said that it does have a cave "Bob's Cave" on Mumbles Head, and on other it is said that "neither the cave nor the church have been identified". Even if it does have a cave, their candidate's overall case is weak.
Wilson & Blacket's candidate does have a cave at Ewenny in Coed y Mwstwr forest, but Evans says why their site doesn't match.

Rock:
The orthodox candidate is by/on/nearby Knab Rock (though there is no rock mentioned in the Wonder's account). This might be an analogous copy of an earlier Arthurian site in the South-East.
There is a Black Rock near our site Reculver.
Bass Rock in the Firth of Forth is analogous to our Bassas site Reculver.

Near the sea (ship/boat/ark) :
Our site Reculver/Margate is near the sea similar to the description.
The orthodox site is near the sea (eg Oystermouth bay), but their candidate's overall case is pretty weak.

In 'Loyngarth' (or 'Ystum-llwynarth') :
Loyngarth/Llwynarth is from either llwyn + arth meaning "grove/wood of the bear", or llwyn + garth "grove/bush/scrub hill/enclosure", or llymarch "an oyster".
Our site Reculver and its not far away neighbour Richborough/Rutupi are both famous for oysters there. (Rutupi was corresponded with Lucrinum in Juvenal because both similarly famous for their oysters.)
Rutupiae was "thought to be [in] a wood" in a Roman source.
St Leonard is found in a few places in Kent and Sussex. St Leonards Church at Deal. Parish church of St Leonard in Hythe, Kent. St Leonards / Church in the Wood at Hollington. St Leonard's forest. St Leonard's Church at St Leonards-on-Sea in East Sussex.
Loyngarth might be connected with Camas Longart/Longphort on Loch
Long which seemingly may be an analogous memory copy namesake of Llongborth which may have been at port Rutupi/Richborough.
Arthur has been supposed to be connected with arth "bear", and Arthur's 9 battle sites certainly match the 9 Saxon Shore sites.
The orthodox rival candidate is in Ystum-llwynarth/Llwyngarth/Llygraib "Llwynarth Bend [Bay?]" / Oystermouth bay, the Mumbles, Gower. However, their candidate's overall case is pretty weak. The place name could be an analogous memory copy namesake of an earlier Arthurian site, like some other Welsh and Northern sites are.
Wilson & Blacket's site is in Coed y Mwstwr wood/forest.

In 'Gu(h)yr/Guiher/Guhir/Gubir/Gower':
There are quite a few of Arthur's battles and Wonders of Britain which the evidences are strong that they match our sites in the south-east but which are linked in the text with place names that supposedly match well-known namesake places in the west or north (Celidon, Linnuis, Hwicce, Guyr, Severn, Loyngarth, Mon(a), Cinlipiuc, Gwent, Buelt, Ercing, Cereticiaun, Hwicce). The evidence suggests that the author of the HB played clever names games, and/or that the later Britons/Welsh had remnant analogous namesakes in Cornwall/Wales/North of original Arthurian sites in the south-east.
Guhir/Gwyr is next after "Raglan" in the 12 Monasteries list, and "Raglan" corresponds with Regulbium/Reculver in the ND and Bassas in the HB.
Gower is either Welsh meaning "wedge-shaped piece of land" or "a goat/caper" or "on the right" or "man", or else is a Norman place-name like Gohiere (region north of Paris) or Gouy, which latter is from Roman personal name Gaudius. Kent could fit the wedge-shaped, and the "on the right", and the Norman, and the Roman. Gaudius is similar to Claudius?
Gu(h)yr is similar to the name of the (sub-)king Guoyrancgonus of Kent in Vortigern's time?
Guiher is possibly similar to Guiderius who is connected with the invasion Claudius in Kent?
Guiher is associated with Cetgueli ("Caer Kidwelly in Carmarthenshire"), and with "the sons of Liethali/Bethan", and "Cunedda and his sons" in the HB 14.
Guiher is also maybe similar to Arthgal of Cargueit in the 11 Consuls list in the HRB, which latter may correspond with Bassas and Reculver.
Gower in Wales is a "peninsula"; the orthodox candidate is at "Mumbles Head"; our site Reculver is a "great headland/promontory".
The rival orthodox candidate is in Gower, but their candidate's overall case is pretty weak.
Wilson & Blacket's is in Glamorgan/Gwent.

St Iltud:
"Iltud ordained by Dubricius", "Dyfrig was the confessor of Iltud".
The Arthurian Saint "Dyfrig/Dubricius (bishop) of (city of) Legions" is connected with either Mandubracius (Androgeus) or Dubris/Dover or Durovernum (Canterbury) or Durobrivae (Rochester), while the city of the legion is Richborough/Rutupi.
Another source says Iltud was ordained by Germanus?
Germanus/Garmon (or Germans) more likely in south-east. Germanus has a close connection with St Alban who is linked with the Downs and Dover (Albion). Maes Garmon "field of Germanus" is connected with the battle of the city of the legion, the city of the legion is not "Chester" but Richborough/Rutupi.
The name Iltud might possibly connect with the names Eli, Ely, Electi, Eliseg, Heli, Beli, Eliffer which seem to be connected with the city of the legion and Richborough.
Among the children of Brychan is a Juliana or Ilud, which might link Iltud with Juliot and Julius?
"Samson placed his cross here for his soul, the soul of Iltud…" might link Iltud with the Reculver Cross?

"A certain regulus (petty king)":
The "certain regulus" mentioned in the description could possibly link with the name of Regulbium/Reculver? (Compare "Riculf/Raculf" in the HRB?)
Brychan is called "a certain regulus" in the Vita Cadog. Gwallawg "in Gafra(i)n in retreat of Brecheinawc" in Taliesin is similar to Arthur in Avalon. "Sepulchrum Brychan in Enys Brachan near Mannia" in 'De situ Brecheniauc'. "the valley of Brychan in Mynav" in 'Cognacio Brychan'. Vallis Brachan "looks to be situated in the parish of St. Bride's-super-Ely" and connected with Crucmarc in the Book of Llandav. Birchington nearby Reculver might be connected with Brychan? The vallis/valley matches the Wantsum-Stour. Mannia/Mynav is analogous to either Thanet, or Minnis Bay nearby Reculver, of Ninnian at Hwiterne (Dover/Guinnion). Crucmarc is an alternative name of Cruc Mawr which matches the large cruciform platform at Richborough.

Nennius:
The battles of Arthur and the Wonders of Britain are both written in the same book.
We found that the 9 battle sites of Arthur in the HB of Nennius pretty certainly match the 9 Saxon Shore sites, and we also found that the Wonders of Britain seem to match the same 9 sites.
Surely the fact that the Wonders seem to match the same sites as the battle sites is an intriguing enough coincidence to make people to at least consider that this might mean our matches may be right.
An alleged interpolation in Asser mentions an alleged local tradition that Nennius and some other persons had been at Oxford. In Arthurian literature the original Rhydychen/Richiden/Ridoc/Rico "Ox-ford" seems to match the Wantsum-Stour and Reculver or Richborough. (Reculver is our Bassas battle site of Arthur, the name of which some say might mean "shallow". It may also be the "swelling ford/shallows" of the Wonders.) (Incidentally, there is also an Oxwich bay in Gower.)Thus the tradition might confirm that Nennius was in the area of our site Reculver. ("Bangor" might also be analogous to Reculver/Bassas?)
Nennius might possibly be connnected with Ninnian who the ASC says rests at St Martin's in Hwiterne "white house" which seemingly may match St Martin le Grand at Dover (Guinnion, "white").
Nennius and Arthur are said to have visited some of the Wonders. In the orthodox theory they have Nennius (and Arthur) romping all over the north-west half of Britain from Loch Lomond to Bangor to Anglesey to Cardigan to Buelt to Gower to Gwent to Severn to Bath? (and not in any of the south-east half of Britain.)
The orthodox rival candidate for this Wonder and their candidates for some other Wonders are not associated with any battle site of Arthur as far as i am aware (except that a few are associated with Arthur in Arthurian literature, but they are not proven to match the places that they are supposed to match).
I am not convinced by the orthodox claims that Nennius was in the west / Wales and not in Anglo-Saxon territory, because i have not seen anymuch strong evidences given by them for this, and i have seen evidences that Nennius' battle sites and wonders certainly seem to match sites in the South and East.

Number/order match:
We found that the 9 battle sites of Arthur match the 9 Saxon Shore sites from Yarmouth to Portsmouth all in numbered geographical order, and we found that alot of the Wonders of Britain seem to match the same 9 sites. Our Wonders are all close to each other. For this Wonder, the preceeding and succeeding Wonders also seem to match sites on either side in the set of 9 sites.
If the mysterious body is Arthur then possibly the number 10th could match Camlan/Avalon as 10th after Badon (9th), and Boso of Ridoc the 11th of the 11 Consuls, who may match Bassas/Reculver?
The orthodox Wonders matches have their Wonders matching sites from Loch Lomond in Scotland to Anglesey to Cardigan to the Severn to Hwicce to Bath, though alot of them are in Wales and around the Severn. Some of their Wonders are not close to other Wonders, and their Wonders are not connected with each other (in a same set/list) in any other sources.

Is a "Wonder (of Britian)" :
Our candidate the Reculver Cross qualifies as a "wonder"?
(Arthur's grave is also called "an eternal wonder" in Black Book of Carmarthen.)
Does the orthodox arch or dolmen candidate qualify as a "wonder"?

Is in "(the island of) Britain" (HB 3, 7, 10) :
Our candidate Reculver/Margate is (in Kent) in (island of) Great Britain.
The name Britain/Albion also seems to be especially connected with Dover and the Downs and the Weald in Arthurian and Welsh sources?
The orthodox candidate site is in Gower in s.w. Wales in (Great) Britain.

Is "history" ("Historia Britonum") :
We have found an amazing possible real physical historical match at about the right date.
The orthodox rival candidate maybe also have a possible partial physical match, though their candidate seems abit weaker than ours (eg "neither the cave nor the church have been identified", "...may have been....", "local traditions/legends/rumours").



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 14-Jun-2018 at 09:28