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If Alexander had faced a unified Indian empire

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  Quote Lannes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: If Alexander had faced a unified Indian empire
    Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 11:41

Originally posted by GENERAL PARMENION

Oh yes ! , there was a gap. The only thing Alexander would have to seriously deal with where the elephants. The rest of the indian army was not a match for the Greeks.

That Makedonians got a hard victory over one of the weaker Indian kingdoms when they had the numerical advantage, but that certainly doesn't mean they could've defeated Dhana Nanda's massive, well-trained army.  Take the numbers into consideration:  Alexander's cavalry would've been outnumbered 1:2 (and the disadvantage would've been even greater had I not rounded about 8,000 horse up to 10,000) and his infantry was outnumbered by 170,000 (and that's not even mentioning the 3,000 elephants and 2,000 chariots)!  Put your bias aside and realize how dominating the numbers of this Indian power would've been.  No 40,000-strong force of the time could defeat a 225,000-strong force.

He made a good laugh out of them !

His terrified troops weren't laughing.  After they heard rumors of a 4,000-strong force of elephants across the Hyphases, they began to mutiny and Alexander had to re-distribute armor to make them feel more protected.

Originally posted by Anujkhamar

Funilly enough i've never heard of you Lannes, how did i miss your posts?!

Heh, not sure.  I suppose I'm not very memorable.

 

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  Quote GENERAL PARMENION Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 15:54

How about telling me how strong exacly the Indian infantry for example was. What tactics where they familiar with? , phallanxes? , cohortes? or where they just shouting out loud like the Persians and ran , in no order at all , towards the enemy forces?

Did they rely only in their numbers?  

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  Quote Mystic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 15:59

He himself may have laughed at those elephants but his men certainly weren't. In fact, part of the reason they wanted to turn around was exactly that, being terrified of fighting thousands of elephants. Either way, you really give Alexander too much credit.

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  Quote GENERAL PARMENION Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 16:18
Well , at least he won. Without being prepared for such a clash. How can i not give him so much credit ! Imagine if he had the Elephants that the Indians possesed !! ( did you ever think of that ? ) Even though he did use some later on. He would have marched straight to Peking !!

Edited by GENERAL PARMENION
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  Quote Lannes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 16:41
Originally posted by GENERAL PARMENION

How about telling me how strong exacly the Indian infantry for example was. What tactics where they familiar with? , phallanxes? , cohortes? or where they just shouting out loud like the Persians and ran , in no order at all , towards the enemy forces?

Did they rely only in their numbers?

They primarily served as archers (the elephants would do the bulk of the actual attacking), though they had large swords for close-quarters combat. 

You should note that Pauravan army at Hyphases wasn't acting in the typical Indian fashion.  The elephant line was oddly defensive in the battle (presumably had to do with the cavalry transfer that took place).

 

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  Quote Mystic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 19:21
"Well , at least he won. Without being prepared for such a clash."

Exactly, he won against a much weaker Indian state which was my point to begin with

"How can i not give him so much credit ! Imagine if he had the Elephants that the Indians possesed !! ( did you ever think of that ? )"

Imagine if he had AK-47s, did you ever think of that? Too bad it didn't happen.

"Even though he did use some later on. He would have marched straight to Peking !!"

If he can somehow make it past the Xiongnu and then the other warring states, then sure but I somehow doubt that
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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 19:54

Originally posted by Anujkhamar

[QUOTE=GENERAL PARMENION]

As I said before, in that timeframe 1/4 to 1/5 of all people on this planet lived in India at the time, conquest would have been imposible.

And how many lived in Alexanders huge empire? At least the number India also had. And also, numbers aren't this important when it is just poor peasant farmers, as much of the population was.

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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2005 at 19:58
Originally posted by Lannes

Originally posted by GENERAL PARMENION

Oh yes ! , there was a gap. The only thing Alexander would have to seriously deal with where the elephants. The rest of the indian army was not a match for the Greeks.

That Makedonians got a hard victory over one of the weaker Indian kingdoms when they had the numerical advantage, but that certainly doesn't mean they could've defeated Dhana Nanda's massive, well-trained army.  Take the numbers into consideration:  Alexander's cavalrywould've been outnumbered 1:2 (and the disadvantage would've been even greater had I not rounded about 8,000 horse up to 10,000) and his infantry was outnumbered by 170,000 (and that's not even mentioning the 3,000 elephants and 2,000 chariots)!  Put your bias aside and realize how dominating the numbers of this Indian power would've been.  No 40,000-strong force of the time could defeat a 225,000-strong force

The Persians also had a huge, but CRAPPY army. Who thought that Alexander would be able to defeat the huge Persian army? You speak of a huge, well trained army, but where have they proven themselves? Against the weaker buffer states? Alexander's army was experienced, and that comes a long way. Maybe Alexander would of recruited some mercenaries from India if he actually planned a full out assault on the Indian subcontinent, which I highly doubt.



Edited by strategos
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  Quote Lannes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 01:02

Originally posted by strategos

The Persians also had a huge, but CRAPPY army. Who thought that Alexander would be able to defeat the huge Persian army?

Even Persian numbers don't compare with the manpower of the Indians.  At Gaugamela, we could put the Persians at around 90-100,000, and that's counting the 50,000 reserve levy.  The case is nearly the same at Issos.  And if we were to pull our discussion closer to what the original topic was (a unified Indian Army), the odds wouldn't get any better -  the larger Mauryan army is listed at 600,000 infantry, 30,000 cavalry, and 9,000 elephants.

You speak of a huge, well trained army, but where have they proven themselves?

The Nandas had been fighting for years.  Their initial expansion (southwards) saw them defeat many peoples and kingdoms (Ikshvakus, Kurus, Kalingas, etc).  And the Mauryans certainly proved they were capable of conquest from the get go (they would've been using a large part if not all of the former Nandan army.  In fact, Chandragupta is mentioned as 'inheriting' a huge army from the last Nandan king, which he would soon expand).

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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 01:20
Originally posted by Lannes

Originally posted by strategos

The Persians also had a huge, but CRAPPY army. Who thought that Alexander would be able to defeat the huge Persian army?

Even Persian numbers don't compare with the manpower of the Indians.  At Gaugamela, we could put the Persians at around 90-100,000, and that's counting the 50,000 reserve levy.  The case is nearly the same at Issos.  And if we were to pull our discussion closer to what the original topic was (a unified Indian Army), the odds wouldn't get any better -  the larger Mauryan army is listed at 600,000 infantry, 30,000 cavalry, and 9,000 elephants.

 

You really think they could field and feed 600,000 soldiers for a long period of time? This seems unreasonible in ancient times..

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 03:40

Originally posted by Lannes

Even Persian numbers don't compare with the manpower of the Indians. 

In this case you're very swift to limit the numbers of Persians, although most researchers agree to 200,000 and only one mentions your figure (can't remember the name right now) but you're equally fast to accept that Indians could field 600,000 armies. Who would feed them, train them, arm them and finally lead such crowd into battle?

An elephand demands 200 kilos of food per day. 4,000 of them would need 800,000 k per day. If they stay pinned at the sane place for over two days they would starve

 

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  Quote GENERAL PARMENION Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 03:54
Leading an army of 600.000 men into battle is , my opinion , rediculus. No one could have done that . The reaseons where stated above by  the other forum members. Not to mention that the Greeks would never choose to fight in a battle field where the Indians could take advantage of their huge number of soldiers. Alexander , as i said before , was not an idiot. He was a military Genius.
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  Quote Lannes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 10:28

Originally posted by Yiannis

In this case you're very swift to limit the numbers of Persians, although most researchers agree to 200,000 and only one mentions your figure (can't remember the name right now)

That number has come more and more into question in mondern times.  John Warry agrees with around 90-100,000, Delbrck even puts them much lower than that, and Victor Davis Hanson agrees at around 100,000.  Anyway, the bulk of the army were ill-prepared reserve levy (of which most saw little to no combat).

're equally fast to accept that Indians could field 600,000 armies. Who would feed them, train them, arm them and finally lead such crowd into battle?

I've never seen numbers to the contrary for either the Nandan army or the Mauryan army(if you know some, I'd love to see).  While 639,000 may be a stretch, the Mauryan army was nevertheless going to be larger than the Nandan army(the empire grew and Chandragupta made a specific point of recruiting). 



Edited by Lannes
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  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 15:04
Originally posted by GENERAL PARMENION

How about telling me how strong exacly the Indian infantry for example was. What tactics where they familiar with? , phallanxes? , cohortes? or where they just shouting out loud like the Persians and ran , in no order at all , towards the enemy forces?

Did they rely only in their numbers?  



Will write more later, but here's a quick reply to your question. Take a look at this website:
http://projectsouthasia.sdstate.edu/Docs/history/primarydo cs/Arthashastra/BookX.htm

it is based on a book written around 250BC (which is close enough to Alexander) which talks of life. This part of the book (if you scroll down to chapter 5) talks about Indian tactics and troop arangements.


Edited by Anujkhamar
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  Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 16:27

Originally posted by Mystic

I somehow doubt Alexander would have tried to use diplomacy to defeat the Mauryans but that's just a personal opinion.

Remember Indian leaders - or at least some of them - at the time of Alexander, didnt exactly liked eachother. If you keep in mind that it was the king of Taxila, Ambhi (sp?) who invited Alexander to support him and defeat Porus, you can imagine it wouldnt be difficult at all for Alexander to repeat it with other Indian leaders. At the time he defeated Porus, i doubt there was even a united Mauryan empire.

A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
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  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 16:45
Somethign about a foreign guy who has no clue on anything about you, coming in and taking your land brings out the unity in people. It worked with greek against Persia, for a good while us with the ottomans and I believe it certainly would have been no different in this case.
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  Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 16:57

Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO

Somethign about a foreign guy who has no clue on anything about you, coming in and taking your land brings out the unity in people. It worked with greek against Persia, for a good while us with the ottomans and I believe it certainly would have been no different in this case.

Not always!! Remember the example of Rome during Macedonian wars -especially the third - and the stand of greek cities where even in front of the fear of subjection to Rome, not only they didnt united but on the contrary, a few of them allied with Rome in order to destroy the rest.

A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
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  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2005 at 17:09
Now were are moving into assumptions though.
Would it have unified? Would it have not?
The topic mentions a unfied Indian power.
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  Quote Sabzevarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2005 at 19:17
With his armies under his command at his death he probably would have lost. But if he continued training Persians and other people's in the empire into his army then he would have sufficient manpower combined with his talents to win.
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  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2005 at 19:29

How long do you think he would have lasted living in the lavish way he did? Not to mention many of the soldiers he had were trained since his father's time. They were specialty. It would have taken years to properly train new armies to that level.

 

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