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Star of Bethlehem

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Star of Bethlehem
    Posted: 18-Feb-2018 at 14:40
Can we nail down the correct date of Jesus Christ's birth (sometime between 12 bc & 1 ad) re the various details of the star of Bethlehem, the census, Cyrinus, Herod, the eclipse, slaughter of babies/children of Ramah, time on Egypt, birth of John the Baptist, Nazareth, etc?

I saw an article on Sirius recently which made me wonder if this star is connected somehow with the star of Bethlehem?
http://www.ancient-origins.net/history-ancient-traditions/what-so-special-about-sirius-dog-star-009232

Genesis 1:14 God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of sky to
        divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs,
        and for seasons, and for days and years;
1:16 .... He also made the stars.

Genesis 37:9 He [Joseph] dreamed yet another dream, and told it to his brothers,
        and said, "Behold, I have dreamed yet another dream:
        and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars bowed
        down to me."

Numbers 24:17 .... A star [kochab?] will come out of Jacob [Khufu/Cheops].  A scepter will rise out
        of Israel, and shall strike through the corners of Moab,
        and break down all the sons of Sheth.
24:19 Out of Jacob shall one have dominion....

Matthew 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days
        of Herod the king, behold, wise men [The word for "wise men"
        (magi) can also mean teachers, scientists, physicians,
        astrologers, seers, interpreters of dreams, or sorcerers.]
        from the east came to Jerusalem, saying,
2:2 "Where is he who is born King of the Jews?  For we saw his star
        in the east (or in the first rays of dawn), and have come to worship him."
2:3 When Herod the king heard it, he was troubled, and all
        Jerusalem with him.
2:7 Then Herod secretly called the wise men, and learned from them
        exactly what time the star appeared.
2:9 They, having heard the king, went their way; and behold,
        the star, which they saw in the east, went before them,
        until it came and stood over where the young child was.
2:10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceedingly great joy.

( Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain
        priest named Zacharias, of the priestly division of Abijah. ....
1:8 Now it happened, while he executed the priest's office before
        God in the order of his division,
1:9 according to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was
        to enter into the temple of the Lord and burn incense.
1:11 An angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing on the right
        side of the altar of incense.
1:26 Now in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God
        to a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
1:27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man whose name was Joseph,
        of the house of David.  The virgin's name was Mary.
1:36 Behold, Elizabeth, your relative, also has conceived a son
        in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her who
        was called barren.
1:56 Mary stayed with her about three months, and then returned
        to her house.
2:1 Now it happened in those days, that a decree went out from
        Caesar Augustus that all the world should be enrolled.
2:2 This was the first enrollment made when Quirinius was
        governor of Syria.
2:4 Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth,
        into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem,
        because he was of the house and family of David;
2:5 to enroll himself with Mary, who was pledged to be married
        to him as wife, being pregnant.
2:6 It happened, while they were there, that the day had come
        that she should give birth.
2:7 She brought forth her firstborn son, and she wrapped him
        in bands of cloth, and laid him in a feeding trough,
        because there was no room for them in the inn.
2:8 There were shepherds in the same country staying in the field,
        and keeping watch by night over their flock.
2:9 Behold, an angel of the Lord stood by them, and the glory
        of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified.
2:10 The angel said to them, "Don't be afraid, for behold, I bring
        you good news of great joy which will be to all the people.
2:11 For there is born to you, this day, in the city of David,
        a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
2:12 This is the sign to you:  you will find a baby wrapped in strips
        of cloth, lying in a feeding trough."
2:13 Suddenly, there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly
        army praising God, and saying,
2:14 "Glory to God in the highest, on earth peace, good will toward men."
2:15 It happened, when the angels went away from them into the sky,
        that the shepherds said one to another, "Let's go
        to Bethlehem, now, and see this thing that has happened,
        which the Lord has made known to us."
2:16 They came with haste, and found both Mary and Joseph,
        and the baby was lying in the feeding trough.
2:17 When they saw it, they publicized widely the saying which was
        spoken to them about this child.
2:20 The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for
        all the things that they had heard and seen, just as it
        was told them.
2:22 When the days of their purification according to the law
        of Moses were fulfilled, they brought him up to Jerusalem,
        to present him to the Lord
2:25 Behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon.
        This man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation
        of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was on him.
2:26 It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he should
        not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ.{"Christ"
        (Greek) and "Messiah" (Hebrew) both mean "Anointed One"}
2:27 He came in the Spirit into the temple.  When the parents
        brought in the child, Jesus, that they might do concerning
        him according to the custom of the law,
2:28 then he received him into his arms....
2:36 There was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel,
        of the tribe of Asher (she was of a great age, having lived
        with a husband seven years from her virginity,
2:37 and she had been a widow for about eighty-four years)....
2:38 Coming up at that very hour, she gave thanks to the Lord,
        and spoke of him to all those who were looking for
        redemption in Jerusalem.
2:39 When they had accomplished all things that were according
        to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their
        own city, Nazareth.
2:42 When he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem
        according to the custom of the feast,
2:43 and when they had fulfilled the days, as they were returning,
        the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem.  ....
2:46 It happened after three days they found him in the temple,
        sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them,
        and asking them questions.
3:1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar,
        Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch
        of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of the region
        of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene,
3:2 in the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God
        came to John, the son of Zacharias, in the wilderness.
3:3 He came into all the region around the Jordan, preaching the
        baptism of repentance for remission of sins.
3:23 Jesus himself, when he began to teach, was about thirty years old.... )

2 Peter 1:19 ... until the day dawns,
        and the morning star arises in your hearts....

Revelation/Apocalypse 2:28 and I will give him the morning star.
22:16 I, Jesus....  I am the root and the offspring of David;
        the Bright and Morning Star."

"Every man and woman is a star".

"... the point of the ecliptic or degree of the zodiac which is nearest the eastern horizon at the time of birth is called the ascendant, and the easternmost star represents the house of life.... This is a person's strongest star, and when his outlook is bright, we say his star is in the ascendant."
"... those leading stars which are above the horizon at a person's birth influence his life...."

Jewish calendar:
  Rosh Hashanah / new year - 1 Nisan / March 17
[preparation - 13 nisan?]
Pesach/passover/paschal - 14 Nisan / March 31
paschal Feast of Unleavened Bread beg - 14/15 Nisan / March 31
First Fruits of barley offering - 15/16 Nisan / April 3
Feast of Unleavened Bread concl. - 20/21 nisan / April 7
2nd passover - 14 zif/iyyar
lagB'omer / counting omer 50 days pesach to shavot
Shavuot/pentecost/ffowh 6 sivan / May 22?
taking of Jerusalem 7/17 thammuz
fast/destruction of Temple/tishaB'av 7/9 ab/aviv
  Yom Teruah/trumps/Rosh Hashanah/New Yr 1 tisri / Sep 10
Yom Kippur/day of atonement 10 tisri / Sep 19
Sukkot/tabernacles/booths/ffw&o 15-21 tisri / Sep 24
Last Great Day # tisri / Oct 1
Hanukkah/lights/dedication (Maccabees) 25 chislev / Dec 1-9
siege Jerusalem 7 tebheth
tuB'shvat/planting trees lat Jan / ear Feb
feast of purim 14/15 Adar
Fast of Esther  11 veadar / Feb 16
Purim (Esther) - 14/15 veadar / Feb 17-19

Star of Bethlehem timeline:
11 stars bow to 1 star (Joseph)
Sphinx
"A star [kocab?] shall come out of Jacob." (Balaam prophecy)
Venus tablets of Ammisaduga
Daniel
magi
[66 bc Jupiter & Saturn?]
63 bc pubic portent (birth Augustus)?
44 bc / [c 24 bc] Caesar's comet
40-4/1 bc Herod the Great (eclipse shortly before death)?
19 bc - ad 14 Augustus Caesar.
[17 bce comet?]
12 bc census Dio Cassius?
12/11 bc Halley's Aug 25th 56/63 days China?
10-7 bc & ad 6-7-12 Cyrinus
9 bc Uranus & Saturn?
8 bc census (3 x)
7 bc census
7/6 bc/bce conjunction of (Mars &) Jupiter & Saturn (3 x in Pisces) 5 months in (20th/end Feb, 12th Apr), 20/21/29th May, sep / (2)3rd Oct, 4th Dec, (end Jan)? *
6 bc double occultation of Jupiter by Moon close to sun in Aries 17 April?
6 bc (Sun &) Jupiter & Moon & Saturn in Aries (Ven & Mars in neighbouring constellations) 6/17 Apr.
6 bc conjunction Uranus & Venus?
5 bc object/comet/nova (70 days, China/Korea)?
4 bc comet with no tail that didn't move (Korean)?
ca 4 bc comet & conjunction several planets in Pisces (DSS)? *
4 bc Simon of Perea
4 bc lunar eclipse 13/15 Mar?
(3 bc conjunction of Venus & Saturn (in eastern sky) in 12 Jun?)
(3 bc conjunction of Jupiter & Venus in Leo in 12th Aug?) *
3 bc conjunction Venus & Mercury 31 Aug?
3 bc "census" (mass oath, Aug). *
[3-2 bc 7 conjunctions Jupiter & Regulus?]
3-2 bc conjunction of Jupiter & Regulus in Leo (1st of 3 x over 8 mo) between 14 Sept 3 bc & Jun 2 bc? *
2 bc conjunction of Jupiter & Venus near Regulus in Leo in [West at] sunset in 17 Jun?
2 bc Venus rose to mark sceptre in Leo 18/20/24 Aug? *
2 bc Jupiter stationary 25 Dec
[1 bc Jupiter & Venus in Virgo in sw [July]?
[0 bc(e) none in yr / no yr.]
1 ad Venus rose in Aries 27 Mar?
6-7-12 ad Cyrinus
6/7 ad/ce census (Judas 6 ad)
[ad 15 Tiberias reign began?]
15-37 saying of 'Tammuz' that "great Pan is dead" in the reign of Tiberias
20 census
"27"/28/29 ad 15th yr Tiberias;
31 ad Mar 4/5 "ladder formed by all wandering  stars";
31 ad Aug 15 "Venus rose in sextans (included as part of Leo)";
32 ad darkness/eclipse (Thallus/Africanus); 
33 ad fri 3rd Apr "eclipse/blood-moon" (Crucifiction)?
33 ad (19 Mar-)5 Apr "Venus (& sun) rose in Pisces" (JC resurrection).
34 census [tax?]
"35 British evangelised"
36 Pilate rule ends.
37 Tiberias reign ends.
46 famine
66 ad Halley's comet (Nero/Tiridates)
Vespasian "a number of omens, oracles, and portents"
69/70 ad Vespasian ascession
70 destruction Jerusalem.
94 Flavius Josephus
312 indiction 1/25 Sept / 1 Jan (15 yrs cycle)
c 5th/6th cent ad Pendragon comet
527/532 Dionysius Exiguus
1006 SN1006 brightest stellar event ever (Ibn Ridwan & Chinese)
[1603 ad conjunction (Mercury,) Jupiter & Saturn in Pisces (Kepler).]

Sphinx = lion (of Judah Gen 49)
Sphinx = head of Joseph Gen 49
Sphinx = east
"Sphinx = dog"?
Anubis = dog.
Sirius = dog star.
Leo = lion
Regulus = little king
Virgo = virgin
Saturn = sabbath
Saturn/Kronos = Jacob/Abraham
Jupiter = king
Jupiter = Jeoud/Judah
Aries = ram = lamb
Pisces = fish
Moon/lunar = Semitic/Jewish.

Referencce list of stars (by constellation) :

Mezarim: UrsaMinor/littlebear/LittleDipper: Kocab; Polaris/polestar/northstar/TaiYi/TouMu, Pherkad, Yildun.

Draco/dragon/Nahash: Eltanin, AlphaDraconis/Reret, Thuban, Giausar, Kuma, Rastaban, Taiyi, Tianyi, Aldhibah, Arrakis, Alsafi, Altais, Athebyne, Dziban, Edasich, Eltanin, Fafnir, Grumium.

QuadransMuralis.

Bootes/Herdsman: Arcturus, Izar, Alkalurops, AsellusPrimus, Merga, Muphrid, Nekkar, Seginus, Xuange.

Lyra/lyre: Vega, Aladfar, Alathfar, Sheliak, Sulafat.

Cepheus: GarnetStar, Alderamin, Alfirk, AlKalbalRai, Errai, Kurhah.

Cygnus/Swan: Deneb, Sadr, Aljanah, Azelfafage, Albireo.

Delphinus:RhoAquilae, Musica, Rotanev, Sualocin, Aldulfin.

Mezarim: UrsaMajor/Plough/(Charles)Wain/Callisto/BigDipper/Meskhet/TouMu: Alkaid, Mizar, Alioth, Dubhe, Merak, Phecda, Alcor, Alkaphrah, AlulaAustralis, Chalawan, Intercrus, Megrez, Muscida, Sarir, Taiyangshou, Talitha, Tania, Alcor.

CoronaBorealis/Firmiana: Alphecca, Nusakan.

Camelopardalis/Camelus/SciurusVolans/flyingsquirrel: Tonatiuh.

Triangulum(Boreale/Majus)/Deltoton/Delta: Mothallah.

Cassiopeia: Schedar, Caph, Castula, Fulu, Marfark, Navi, Ruchbah, Segin, Achird.

Andromeda: GreatSpiral; Alpheratz, Mirach, Almach, Adhil, Alamak, Nembus, Titawin, Veritate.

Leo/Lion/Freya/Folkvangr/Sessrumnir: Regulus, Denebola, Algieba, Adhafera, AlMinliaralAsad, Alterf, Chertan, Praecipua, Rasalas, Subra, Zosma.

Cancer/crab/Heimdall: Acubens, Altarf, Asellus, Copernicus, Meleph, Tegmine.

CanisMinor: Procyon, Wezen, Gomeisa.

Gemini/twins/Castor&Pollux/Lugalirra&Meslamtae/Vali&Vidar/Breidablik: Alhena, Alzirr, Jishui, Mebsuta, Mekbuda, Propus, Tejat, Wasat.

Auriga/charioteer: Capella, Menkalinan, Almaaz, Haedus, Hassaleh, Mahasim, Saclateni.

Perseus: Algol; Mirfak; IRS5; Atik; Menkib; Miram; Misam.

Orion/hunter/Ishullanu/Sah/Osiris/Jabbir/Kesil: Trapezium; belt; Rigel; Betelgeuse, Bellatrix, Alnitak, Alnilam, Saiph, Hatsya, Meissa, Mintaka, Tabit, Thabit.

Taurus/bull/Gudana/Rohini/Skadi/Thrym: Pleiades/Kimah; Aldebaran; Elnath, Alcyone, Ain, Asterope, Atlas, Celaeno, Chamukuy, Electra, Maia, Merope, Pleione, Taygeta, Tianguan.
Taurus: Hyades/Ash/Ayish: Alphard.

Aries/ram/goldenfleece: Hamal, Bharani, Botein, LiliiBorea, Mesarthim, Sheratan.

Pegasus: Pegasi, Markab, Enif, Scheat, Markab, Algenib, Alkarab, Biham, Helvetios, Hornam, Matar, Sadalbari, Salm.

Pisces/fishes/Anunitu/Saga: Alrescha, FumalSamakah, Revati, Torcular.

MilkyWay/Galaxy: IRS5.
Sun/Sol/Helios/Shamash/Utu/Ra/Re.
Nemesis/darkstar
Venus/Lucifer/eveningstar/morningstar/Sukra/Mazzaroth/Hesperus.

Aquarius/watercarrier/Frey/Alfheim: Albali, Ancha, Sadachbia, Situla, Skat.

Capricorn(us)/goatfish/Frey/Alfheim/Pan/Amalthea: Algedi, Alshat, Dabih, DenebAlgedi, Nashira.

Sagittarius/archer/Pabilsag/Ull: Nunki, KausAustralis, Ainalrami, Albaldah, Alnasl, Arkab, Ascella, Polis, Rukbat, Terebellum.

Aquilo/Aquila/eagle: Altair, Alshain, Libertas, Tarazed.

Ophiuchus: Rasalhague, Sabik, Barnard'sStar, Cebalrai, Marfik, Yed.

Scorpio(n)/Scorpius/Njord: Antares, Shoula/Shaula, Acrab, Sargas, Larawag, Dschubba, Fang, Fuyue, Graffias, Iklil, Jabbah, Lesath, Pipirima, Xamidimura, Alniyat.

Serpens: SerpensCaput, SerpensCauda, Alya, Unukalhai.

Libra/balance/Njord: Zubenelgenubi, Brachium.

Virgo/virgin/Demeter/Sala/Forseti/Glitnir: Spica, Heze, Kang, Khambalia, Lich, Minelauva, Porrima, Syrma, Vindemiatrix, Zaniah, Zavijava.

Piscis(Austrinis)/PiscisNotus/SouthernFish: Fomalhaut.

Grus/crane/Phoenicopterus/flamingo: Alnair, Tiaki, Aldhanab.

TriangulumAustrale/TriangulusAntarcticus: Atria.

Pavo/peacock.

Corvus: Gienah.

Centaur(us)/Chiron: Agena; RigilKentaurus/AlphaCentauri, ProximaCentauri; Hadar; Menkent.

Hadretheman: Canopus.
Hadretheman: Crux/SouthernCross/TripleStar: Acrux, BetaCrucis/Mimosa, Gacrux, AlphaCentauri, Ginan.

Musca(Australis)/Apis/Bee

Cetus/whale: Mira, Diphda, BatenKaitos, Kaffaldjidhma, Menkar.

(Jason'sShip)Argo/ArgoNavis: Vela/sails: Alsephina, Suhail, Markeb, Regor.
ArgoNavis: Puppis/poopdeck: Naos, Tureis, Asmidiske.
ArgoNavis: Carina/keel: Canopus, Avior, Miaplacidus, Aspidiske.

WinterTriangle: Sirius, Betelguese, Procyon.

CanisMajor: SiriusA&B/dogstar/Sothis/Sopdet/Sept/Isis/Sukra/Tishtrya/east/dogdays, Adhara, Mirzam, Aludra, Furud, Muliphein, Unurgunite, Wezen.
CanisMajor: Sirius/scorching/triangle/Rehua/Warepil/red/seablue/white: thePup/SiriusB.

Manu: Sirius, Procyon, Canopus.

Phoenix/Phoenicis: Ankaa.

TheRiver/Eridanus: Achernar, Acamar, Beemim, Beid, Cursa, Keid, Ran, Sceptrum, Theemin, Zaurak, Zibal, Angetnar, Azha.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 18-Feb-2018 at 14:51
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2018 at 09:17
There are only two New Testament accounts of Jesus' birth - the Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke. The Census only occurs in the Gospel of Luke. The Magi and the Massacre of the Innocents only occur in the Gospel of Matthew. 

Whilst it is traditional to combine the two gospel accounts and read them as a single narrative, I think each gospel should be examined separately as an individual source, and judged on its own internal chronology. 

Luke starts with two reference points for dating Jesus' birth;

1. It is in the time of King Herod of Judea when Zechariah is an elderly priest, and his old and barren wife Elizabeth becomes pregnant with John the Baptist. Luke links Elizabeth's pregnancy to the news for Mary about her own child, but he does not say that Mary became pregnant at that point. 

2. It is in the time of Emperor Augustus that a census is decreed, when Quirinius is governor of Syria. It is this census that leads to Jesus being born in Bethlehem.

The census of Quirinius is recorded in the History of Josephus for 6/7 AD. If that is when Jesus was born, then the mentioned 'King Herod of Judea' could be Herod Archelaus [4 BC - 6 AD], who was replaced by Quirinius as ruler of Judea in 6 AD. There is nothing in the narrative of Luke that would argue against this. 

Luke also gives us some reference points in Jesus' adult life;

1. In the 15th year of Emperor Tiberius, John the Baptist starts to preach and baptize people in the Jordan area.

2. John the Baptist speaks against Herod of Galilee's behaviour, including his marriage to Herodias, and is arrested. 

3. Only after this arrest does Jesus, having already been baptized by John, leave John's disciples to spend 40 days in the wilderness before returning to Galilee and starting his own ministry. Jesus is about 30 years old when he starts to preach.

4. Jesus' ministry seems to be only about a year long (Luke mentions only one Passover). Herod has John beheaded during Jesus' ministry and Jesus is sentenced to death by Pontius Pilate.

Historically, the 15th year of Tiberius would be 29/30 AD, so this is the date for John the Baptist starting to preach. We are not told how long John preached prior to his arrest, nor for how long he was imprisoned, but Josephus reports that John's death was perceived as the cause for Herod's defeat by the Nabateans in 36 AD. 

We are also not told the time gap between John starting his ministry in 29/30 AD and Jesus starting his; but if Jesus' ministry was only a year long and included John's execution, then this would not have been very long before 36 AD, by which date (according to Josephus) John was recently dead.

So if Jesus' ministry ended about 36 AD, and if he was about 30 years old when he started preaching, then his birth fits with the census of Quirinius in 6/7 AD.

None of this proves that the story is true, nor helps explain why the chronology differs in Matthew. But it does show that the Luke narrative is consistent with itself, and with a second historical narrative in Josephus.


Edited by .Sidney - 19-Feb-2018 at 16:18
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2018 at 11:43
So, what about the Star of Bethlehem?

The Star only makes an appearance in the Gospel of Matthew, linked to the visitation of the Magi to King Herod. Whilst Luke indicates that the 'Herod' Jesus was born under was Herod Archelaus, Matthew writes instead that this king Herod was the father of Archelaus. He is portrayed as a cruel and insecure tyrant who, hearing of a divinely destined replacement, massacres all possible rivals, but fails to kill Jesus who is divinely protected and goes to Egypt. There is indeed a story in Josephus of a court prophecy about Herod being overthrown by a coming Messiah, but whilst this was in c.6 BC it does not involve any stars, or the massacre of children.

Matthew seems to want a birth narrative for Jesus that compares to that of Moses, who escaped the massacre of the Pharaoh, and eventually came out of Egypt as the Lawgiver of God. Matthew's nativity narrative is much more full of miraculous intervention, divine warning, and fulfillment of prophecy when compared to Luke's. 

Interestingly, Matthew's nativity narrative ends with Jesus settling in Galilee in the time of Herod Archelaus, which is about the same time and place that Luke places Jesus. It is as if those seeking information about Jesus' birth could only trace him back to roughly this time and place as an infant, with some hint of a birth in Bethlehem. Luke then places the birth in an historical context of the Census, whilst Matthew places it in a folkloric context of evil kings, wandering (hidden) princes and divine protection. It is also interesting that Matthew, having told us that Herod wanted to destroy Jesus, then tells us that Jesus' family were also fearful of Herod's son, Archelaus. No reason is given for this, and I wonder whether there is some underlying remembrance here that it really was Herod Archelaus who endangered Jesus' life (and thus agreeing with Luke's timeframe - if not the details).

With regard to the Star, Matthew's folkloric tale has it that the Magi appear to Herod and he learns that a destined King of the Jews had been born at the time the Magi had seen his star arise. Herod learns that this had occurred two years ago, and is advised that it occurred in Bethlehem. Consequently, Herod orders the death in that vicinity of all male infants aged two years or under.

The curious thing is that according to the narrative the Star was still visible - for it led the Magi to the right house in Bethlehem. But it wasn't a constant vision, otherwise Herod's men would have spotted it. So some astronomical event occurred that was visible in the far East at the time that Jesus was born, but the Star only appeared fleetingly in the skies above Israel two years later.

Since Luke/Josephus indicate Jesus' birth as being in 6/7 AD, does this mean the Star appeared above Bethlehem in 8/9 AD? And does this have any relation to the rumours about Vespasian, who was born in 9 AD?


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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2018 at 23:36
Thanks Sidney, there are some interesting points.

There was a verse i didn't think of in the first post:
Acts 5:37 After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days
        of the enrollment, and drew away some people after him.
        He also perished, and all, as many as obeyed him,
        were scattered abroad.
But apparently this was the 6/7 ad census not b.c.

This is what i have been investigating the last couple of days:

It looks like the star of Bethlehem might be Halley's comet? (Though there might possibly actually be two different stars conflated?) However i am not sure because it doesn't seem to fit with some dates (Cyrinus 10-7 bc, 15th yr Tiberius, Jesus about 30 yrs old & 1 or 3-4 yrs ministry, destruction of Jerusalem 70)?

The star of Bethlehem is probably either a star or planet or comet, and is probably either a conjunction/synod or a comet. The Hebrew word kochba may perhaps better match a comet?
"A star shall come out of Jacob" is similar to "Venus came out of Jupiter" and might better match a comet? (Comet also looks like angel?)
The star of Bethlehem moving and staying may match a comet?
Compare Caesar's comet, and the Pendragon comet?
Jesus is called the morning/day star, and Halley's was a bright as Venus in 837 and Chinese compared its brilliance to the first-magnitude star Procyon (1301).
The star must have been significant and yet not noticed by Herod etc?

Halley's Comet might be connected with the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel.
468/466 bc is possibly the earliest recorded date of the comet, and this date is close to the start date of Daniel's prophecy and/or is only 10 yrs out from the orthodox 458 date of Ezra.
"70"/76 yrs period of the comet might link with 70 weeks?
It might explain how/why magi of the east knew about the king of the Jews? Halley's comet appears in records of Babylonians, Persians, Chinese.
I think it was Sitchin that suggested Halley's comet as sort of being Israel's star?

Halley's comet's period of "70"/76 years may link with the biblical number 7/77, and with 70/72 nations of Genesis 10, 70 days absence of Sirius, and 70 years lifetime of psalm of Moses and of David, and 70 weeks of Daniel, and 70 scholars of Septuagint, and 70 sanhedrin?
56/63 days of Halley's comet in 12/11 bc (Chinese records), and the comet's rotation of 52 hours also might link with biblical 50 years (jubilee), and Typhon/Set, and 50 yrs period of Sirius/Sothis.

The star of Bethlehem appeared over a period of upto 2 years (it may have either been present all the time, or appeared 2 or more times between the beginning and end of the 2 years). Halley's comet takes a year to pass either side of the earth when it passes around the sun (eg 1680 & 1681).

The comet and census look like they must be in either 12 bc, or 7/6 bc, or 3 bc (if not ruled out by Herod's death which is supposed to be 4 bc). (Though it is possible that the star was not at the time of Jesus' birth but 1-2 years later?) It is questionable whether there was a census in 7 bc since it is said that there are no actual records of one then (though there might have been one in 8 bc according to some source)? There was a census in 12 bc, and Halley's comet in 12/11 bc. Coincidentally Dio(n) Cassius recorded both the 12 bc census and the 218 Halley's comet. Dion Cassius is also similar to Dionysius Exiguus?

Apparently some others have also suggested that Halley's comet might be the star of Bethlehem, and an article seems to protest too much that it can't be. Halley's comet appeared in the painting The Adoration of the Magi by Giotto c 1301/1305. (Might also be interetsing that also "4 years prior"...?) Halley's name has also been spelt Hawley "similar to Holly" (and Hailey). (Coincidentally Halley's appeared in 25 dec 1758, though Jesus wasn't born that time of year.)

Halley's comet also appeared a few years before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 bc, about 40 years after orthodox date of Jesus' crucifiction.

Talmud saying that Halley's comet "leads astray captains of ships/boats" might connect with that Jesus disciples were fishermen (Peter, John & James)? Dio Cassius called it "a very fearful star". Halley's called Xiphias "sword", possibly compare "a sword shall pierce your soul" (Luke 2:35), "I didn't come to bring peace, but a sword" (Matt 10:34)?
Sirius' name means "hairy/scorching", Halley's was "hairy star" (1145).

Anna 84 yrs (cf easter cycle?) minus 7 yrs (Luke 2:36-37) = 76 yrs Halley's?



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 19-Feb-2018 at 23:40
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2018 at 12:51
Halley's comet was in 9 BC (edit- 12 BC). For this to match Jesus' birth, then Jesus was born in 9 BC (edit- 12 BC) when the 'star' appeared, or in 11 BC (edit- 14 BC), being 2 years old when the Magi arrived and the 'star' led them to Bethlehem.

Josephus indicates that John the Baptist's ministry ended shortly before 36 AD, and Jesus only became active after John was arrested. This makes Jesus well over 40 when he started his ministry, whereas we are told that he was 'about thirty'.

If Jesus was born in 6/7 AD, at the time of the census and when there was a revolt by Judas of Galilee, then that would help explain why the appearance of the Magi, claiming a new king had been born at that tumultuous time, would gain greater credence with the already wary ruler. 


Edited by .Sidney - 22-Feb-2018 at 10:24
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2018 at 00:49
Yes there are seeming difficulties to resolve but i can't shake the evidence does seem to suggest Halleys and it is possible that the secular and biblical dates are not correctly calculated. Halleys comet was 12 bc and 66 ad. I'd be interested to know the 9 bc source.

We don't actually know all the correct check points start middle end dates of Jesus. 

The star could have appeared within two years before to two years after his birth.
Jesus was "about 30" in English translation, which could be anywhere between 25 to 39. 
He could have lived to 40 (something) since bible says "his generation" and says "you are not yet 50".

The 6/7 ad census is too late, and i am not convinced that Herod was Archelaus which contradicts Matthew. I have to check but i think bible says "the first census". There was not only one census.

It is possible that Daniel's middle of the week is middle of 12 bc to 66 bc.
69/70 weeks x 7 yrs in Daniel
switched around
6/7 x 70/76 Halley's comet returns between 468 bc & 12 bc/66 ad.

I will have to dig out my Josephus or read it online.

I accept that it is possible i could be wrong, though i am pretty sure it may be right. But i accept that we need to find if the dates problems do or don't have solution.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2018 at 10:03
Matthew is full of folklore, and I believe the idea of the star and the activities of a wicked king are elements inserted to make it "what we would expect to happen when the Messiah was born". There could be elements that bear a passing resemblance to actual events, but they may not be events that originally went together. 

Matthew's narrative;
The genealogy of Jesus, split into 3 groups of 14. This is a forced list to give a sense of a preordained generation. Mary gets pregnant through the Holy Spirit, and Joseph has a dream message. This fulfills a prophecy. Jesus is born and King Herod is visited by Magi, who seek the King of the Jews due to an astronomical/astrological event. "All Jerusalem is disturbed" and "all the people's" priests and teachers are gathered together.This is an exaggeration. These teachers and priests (who are ignorant about the astronomical event) say the King is in Bethlehem. This fulfills a prophecy. The Magi find the King (Jesus) by following the star (which Herod still cannot see), but are warned by a dream message not to tell Herod. Joseph has a dream message to go to Egypt. This fulfills a prophecy. Herod is angry he cannot find the King and orders a massacre of boys. This fulfills a prophecy. Herod dies and Joseph has a dream message to return to Israel. Joseph has an undisclosed reason to fear the king of Judea, and has a dream message and settles in Nazareth. This fulfills a prophecy.

Matthew presents us with a preordained time-frame, an astronomical wonder that carries an astrological prediction, five dreams with direct messages, and five Scriptural prophecies that are fulfilled. The astrology and dreams imply that Matthew is working outside of traditional Hebrew culture - the Magi are Babylonian, and Matthew's dreams are clear and direct communications from God, unlike those of the Old Testament that come as signs that need interpreting (cf. Joseph's dreams, Pharaoh's dreams, Nebuchadnezzer's dream, Daniel's dream, etc). Every message is supernatural, and there are no human agents in this story who act outside these messages.

Looking to place Matthew's Star of Bethlehem, King Herod, and Jesus together in a coherent historical moment is going to be impossible. Matthew was not interested in the true history of Jesus' birth, only in presenting it as a divinely ordained event. Clearly there were comets, and there were also King Herods, but Matthew put them together in the way he does in order to create an appropriate story after the event.


Edited by .Sidney - 22-Feb-2018 at 10:19
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  Quote CedricEmrys Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2018 at 11:53
Originally posted by .Sidney

Matthew is full of folklore, and I believe the idea of the star and the activities of a wicked king are elements inserted to make it "what we would expect to happen when the Messiah was born". There could be elements that bear a passing resemblance to actual events, but they may not be events that originally went together. 

Matthew's narrative;
The genealogy of Jesus, split into 3 groups of 14. This is a forced list to give a sense of a preordained generation. Mary gets pregnant through the Holy Spirit, and Joseph has a dream message. This fulfills a prophecy. Jesus is born and King Herod is visited by Magi, who seek the King of the Jews due to an astronomical/astrological event. "All Jerusalem is disturbed" and "all the people's" priests and teachers are gathered together.This is an exaggeration. These teachers and priests (who are ignorant about the astronomical event) say the King is in Bethlehem. This fulfills a prophecy. The Magi find the King (Jesus) by following the star (which Herod still cannot see), but are warned by a dream message not to tell Herod. Joseph has a dream message to go to Egypt. This fulfills a prophecy. Herod is angry he cannot find the King and orders a massacre of boys. This fulfills a prophecy. Herod dies and Joseph has a dream message to return to Israel. Joseph has an undisclosed reason to fear the king of Judea, and has a dream message and settles in Nazareth. This fulfills a prophecy.

Matthew presents us with a preordained time-frame, an astronomical wonder that carries an astrological prediction, five dreams with direct messages, and five Scriptural prophecies that are fulfilled. The astrology and dreams imply that Matthew is working outside of traditional Hebrew culture - the Magi are Babylonian, and Matthew's dreams are clear and direct communications from God, unlike those of the Old Testament that come as signs that need interpreting (cf. Joseph's dreams, Pharaoh's dreams, Nebuchadnezzer's dream, Daniel's dream, etc). Every message is supernatural, and there are no human agents in this story who act outside these messages.

Looking to place Matthew's Star of Bethlehem, King Herod, and Jesus together in a coherent historical moment is going to be impossible. Matthew was not interested in the true history of Jesus' birth, only in presenting it as a divinely ordained event. Clearly there were comets, and there were also King Herods, but Matthew put them together in the way he does in order to create an appropriate story after the event.

Some think that god used what happened in nature, i.e the planet jupiter which was the king of the planets, crossed paths with neptune, which in astrology, was the protector of palestine, so this was a double symbolism, the king(jupiter) met with the protector of palestine(neptune), Jesus was the messiah who is the protector and king of Israel. 
I think this is a cool theory, many astrologers and astronomers think that this is the most likely explanation.  
God can use even things that have nothing to do with him to work out his plan.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2018 at 16:03

For years/decades/century people have been claiming sources like Bible, Atlantis Account, Nennius, Herodotus, Robin Hood, etc are just "myth", "folklore", "unreliable". Yet in the last 4 or so years we have proven each of them are far more historically true than hitherto claimed. 
Humans have had dreams for millenia (Joseph, Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel, Herod, Joseph, ML King, Freud/Jung). 
There are prophecies that have been fulfilled/true in ancient times and modern times. 
Halley's comet is in Bayeux tapestry, does that mean its myth? Tiberius was into astrology does that mean he is myth? 
Luke (Greek) and a doctor and associate of Paul. Matthew (Hebrew) is supposedly Levi a tax collector, can't get more realist than that.

I'd be interested to know more about the jupiter/king & neptune/palestine conjunction re what date etc, though i currently tentatively favoiur the Halley's comet as the star for the reasons given.

Have gone through Josephus to see if any help/clues there. The registration/census of Luke 2:1-5 might possibly be connected with Josephus Antiquities (16:5:1 and) 16:6:1-8 (and 16:7:1-2)?

Luke: decree of Augustus Caesar.
Josephus: decree of Augustus Caesar.

Luke: registration/census.
Josephus: decree to do with sacred money; Censorinus.

Luke: Cyrenius/Cyrinus/Quirinius (the original of the Greek text seems to be Cyrenius/Cyrnius not Quirinius?).
Josephus: Cyrene; Caius Censorinus. [Cyrinus was also in 10-7 bc.]
(If the original is Quirinius not Cyrenius then alternative possibility is Quintilius in 17:5:2.)

Luke: "for all the inhabited earth"
Josephus: "toward all mankind".

Luke: Bethlehem (city of David).
Josephus: Herod taking wealth out of David's sepulchre.

Luke/Matthew: Mary/Miriam (& Joseph). babies of Ramah.
Josephus: Mariamne (& Joseph). sons of Mariamne.

The 28th year of Herod's reign would be between 19 to 12 to 9 bc.

Alternatively there is a slaughter of Jews in Josephus 17:6:5-6 similar that in Matthew.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2018 at 12:47
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

For years/decades/century people have been claiming sources like Bible, Atlantis Account, Nennius, Herodotus, Robin Hood, etc are just "myth", "folklore", "unreliable". Yet in the last 4 or so years we have proven each of them are far more historically true than hitherto claimed. 
Humans have had dreams for millenia (Joseph, Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, Daniel, Herod, Joseph, ML King, Freud/Jung). 
There are prophecies that have been fulfilled/true in ancient times and modern times. 
Halley's comet is in Bayeux tapestry, does that mean its myth? Tiberius was into astrology does that mean he is myth? 
Luke (Greek) and a doctor and associate of Paul. Matthew (Hebrew) is supposedly Levi a tax collector, can't get more realist than that.

Please note what I said;

Originally posted by .Sidney

Matthew is full of folklore, and I believe the idea of the star and the activities of a wicked king are elements inserted to make it "what we would expect to happen when the Messiah was born". There could be elements that bear a passing resemblance to actual events, but they may not be events that originally went together.

...Clearly there were comets, and there were also King Herods, but Matthew put them together in the way he does in order to create an appropriate story after the event.

Halley's comet in the Bayeux tapestry was not used to confirm the date of the Battle of Hastings. Rather, we identify the image as Halley's comet because we already had the date of the Battle of Hastings, and we have contemporary descriptions linking its appearance to that known date.. 

And belief in astrology clearly does not mean that believers themselves are a myth.  




Edited by .Sidney - 24-Feb-2018 at 13:11
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2018 at 15:44
i will find the truth (if i haven't already) as i always do regardless of others always trying to claim things are not true but myth/mixed/unreliable.

Apparently according to Res Gestae Divi Augusti, there was a 2nd census of Augustus in 8/7bc 20 yrs after 1st one, and 3rd census in ad 13/14 again 20 yrs after 2nd one. But there is no star except the 7 bc conjunction.
It is also said that there was a census in time of Saturninus according to Tertullian.
I still favour the 12 bc Halleys & census evidences, but am objectively seeking truth regardless.

Jesus must have been born &/or 2yrs old between 12-3 bc.
He must have been baptised between 14/18-29/36/37 ad.
Must have died between 26-37
But i haven't been able to narrow it down further than that yet. Something is wrong with some secular or seeming-biblical dates somewhere.


Edited by Arthur-Robin - 25-Feb-2018 at 02:43
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2018 at 14:38
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

i will find the truth (if i haven't already) as i always do regardless of others always trying to claim things are not true but myth/mixed/unreliable.

Apparently according to Res Gestae Divi Augusti, there was a 2nd census of Augustus in 8/7bc 20 yrs after 1st one, and 3rd census in ad 13/14 again 20 yrs after 2nd one. 

Thanks for the reference Arthur-Robin. Its a very relevant piece of evidence.

The passage reads;

"In my sixth consulship, with Marcus Agrippa as my colleague, I made a census of the people. I performed the lustrum after an interval of forty-one years. In this lustration 4,063,000 Roman citizens were entered on the census roll. 

A second time, in the consulship of Gaius Censorinus and Gaius Asinius, I again performed the lustrum alone, with the consular imperium. In this lustrum 4,233,000 Roman citizens were entered on the census roll. 

A third time, with the consular imperium,  and with my son Tiberius Caesar as my colleague, I performed the lustrum in the consulship of Sextus Pompeius and Sextus Apuleius. In this lustrum 4,937,000 Roman citizens were entered on the census roll."

The 'lustrum' was the sacrifice made at the end of a census. Augustus performed his first census in 28 BC, 41 years after the previous one under in 69 BC. Augustus made his second in 8 BC. The third in 14 AD.

The censuses seemed to have only concerned Roman citizens. Is that true? And if so, do we need to argue that Jesus' family were Roman citizens in order to have been affected by it?

But there were other censuses besides these - notably the one in 6 AD in Judea under Quirinus, which is the only census mentioned by Luke's Gospel in reference to Jesus' nativity, and later in Acts with reference to Messiah-like figures.  

The census of Jesus' nativity is only mentioned by Luke, and is not connected to Matthew's Star of Bethlehem. Luke and Matthew are separate accounts of the nativity that were not written to compliment each other, nor were they written with the intention of being amalgamated. Each investigated Jesus' origins separately, and only agree that he was the son of Joseph and Mary, was born through the Holy Spirirt, was living in Nazareth around the time of Herod Archelaus, but was said to have been born in Bethlehem. The details beyond that have to be judged on possible provenance, historical context and any agenda driven desire of the author(s).
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2018 at 15:53
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

  It is also said that there was a census in time of Saturninus according to Tertullian.

Another good reference, Arthur-Robin.

Tertullian, in "Against Marcion" (written 208/07 AD mentions censuses twice. Firstly in Book IV, Ch 7, in reference to Jesus first teaching in the synagogue;

And yet how could He have been admitted into the synagogue----one so abruptly appearing, so unknown; one, of whom no one had as yet been apprised of His tribe, His nation, His family, and lastly His enrolment in the census of Augustus----that most faithful witness of the Lord's nativity, kept in the archives of Rome?

And secondly in Book IV, Ch 19, in reference to Jesus being told that his mother and brothers are waiting outside for him;

"But there is historical proof that at this very time a census had been taken in Judaea by Sentius Saturninus, which might have satisfied their inquiry respecting the family and descent of Christ."

Are these two references to a single census? We know that there were a number of censuses conducted under Augustus, but how many under Sentius Saturninus? 

Sentius Saturninus was governor of Syria (which seems to be what Tertullian means by Judea) in 9-6 BC, which is usually taken to be the one that Tertullian is referencing, since it fits with the assumed identity of King Herod (died 4 BC)  in the Gospel of Matthew, and fits in with the 9 BC general census of Augustus.

However, another Sentius Saturninus was Governor of Syria in 19-21 AD. Since Tertullian is talking about an event that happened after 30 AD, and then says "at this very time a census had been taken" is he likely to be referring to a census from 40 years before, or something a bit closer in time, say at 10 years? The language favours the latter, so maybe there was a census under this second Sentius Saturninus, which is a different one to the earlier one he mentions under Augustus.  

But with his statement, Tertullian seems to be contradicting the Gospel of Luke, which clearly says that the census was under Quirinius the governor of Syria. As a faithfull Christian, is it likely that Tertullian was unaware of what the Gospel said, or had decided that he knew better? The answer could be that the immediate predecessor of Quirinius as governor of Syria was a third Saturninus in 4-6 AD, and that he and Quirinius shared the set up of the census.

It should also be noted that until the deposement of Herod Archelaus in 6 AD, Judea was not under direct Roman management. Therefore a governor of Syria (as Saturninus in 9-6 BC was) would not have been authorised to take a census in Judea. It was only after 6 AD that such an administrative task could be conducted.

Josephus tells us in Book XVII, Ch 13 of his Antiquities;

"So Archelaus' country [Judea] was added to the province of Syria [6 AD]; and Cyrenius [Quirinius] who had been consul, was sent by Caesar to take account of the people's effects in Syria" [which only now included Judea].




Edited by .Sidney - 25-Feb-2018 at 16:43
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2018 at 00:14

(Tertullian was only a comment i don't appreciate false implying that i thought anything you implied i did.)

Jesus seemingly can only have been born between 12 bc and 3 bc. I do not agree with separating Matthew and Luke unless they are referring to separate times events. Luke's census verse is agreed by scholars to be uncertain/ambiguous as to its correct meaning. His census may either be at time of Jesus birth (12 bc - 3 bc) or may have not been at time of Jesus birth but be the 6/7 ad one.

censuses:
69 bc (Res Gestae Augustus),
julius caesar decreed Jews of Jerusalem pay annual tribute,
28 bc (41 years after previous, 20 years before next, Res Gestae Augustus),
12 bc (Dio Cassius),
9/8 bc "of Roman empire/citizens" (20 yearly, Censorinus, Res Gestae Augustus, Josephus 16:6:1-8, Tertullian?),
7/6bc (14 yrs before, Tertullian?)?
3 bc (mass oath),
6/7 ad (14 yearly, Quirinus, Josephus, Luke? Tertullian?),
13/14 ad (20 yearly, Res Gestae Augustus),
20 ad (14 yearly, Tertullian?),
34 ad (14 yearly),
312 ad (14 yrly, indiction).

Herod also took revenue from Jews in Josephus.

There is also question of correct word used in Luke (these words in different sources: money, revenue, tax, tribute, census registration, assessment, decree, indiction, lustrum).

Notice that Censorinus is common to both the Gestae Augustus and to the Josephus section that i said seemed similar to Luke's verses. (I do not appreciate how people always ignoring important things i said and only focusing on one or few weakest/minorest things.)
Source say Augustus one was "of Roman empire"; and Josephus verses specifically decree to Jews.

Something is wrong with the dates of different sources between the 14/15 yr censuses and the 20 yr censuses.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 26-Feb-2018 at 00:25
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2018 at 17:43
If you want to find comets that match an amalgamated reading of Matthew and Luke, then at the Battle of Teutoberg Forest in 9 AD, when the Germanic tribes defeated the Roman Legions under Varus, the historian Dio Cassius records "numerous comets appeared at one and the same time" (Dio Cassius 56.24.4). 

Since, if we follow Matthew, Jesus was aged 2 years when the Star appeared, then a comet appearing in 9 AD puts Jesus' birth in 7 AD, which fits with the Josephus/Luke census date. 


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2018 at 17:58
Generations of commentators on the Gospels have tried to reconcile Luke's census with Matthew's time of King Herod, and unanimously assume that Luke was wrong in some way and that Matthew was accurate. 

A much more straightforward answer is that Matthew was wrong. He admits that Joseph was afraid of Herod Archelaus, but gives no reason for it. Yet he has just told us how a King Herod was attempting to kill Jesus. Matthew made one King Herod into two. If we make them the same King (Herod Archelaus) this reconciles the account in Matthew with the details in Luke that are corroborated in Josephus. 

Josephus tells us that Archelaus was disposed because the Jews were outraged by his atrocities and cruelty.  He certainly sounds like the type of man who would gain the reputation of a baby killer.


Edited by .Sidney - 28-Feb-2018 at 20:39
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2018 at 18:07
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin


Jesus seemingly can only have been born between 12 bc and 3 bc. 

Why?

As I have noted, the province of Judea did not come under direct Roman control until 6 AD. Therefore the census mentioned in Luke, whether it was an Empire wide one or one for local Roman administration, would not have included Judea until after that date. Judea just wasn't part of the Empire. 

Therefore if we want to believe the Gospels regarding Jesus' birth, then Luke says 6 AD or after. 


Edited by .Sidney - 28-Feb-2018 at 18:09
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2018 at 20:29
Originally posted by .Sidney

Generations of commentators on the Gospels have tried to reconcile Luke's census with Matthew's time of King Herod, and unanimously assume that Luke was wrong in some way and Matthew was accurate.


In many topics i have studied i was told that "many people better/greater/smarter than you have failed to solve such and such for thousands of years so why would you?" And yet in a number of the topics i actually managed to find the truth (King Arthur's battle sites, Robin Hood, Atlantis location, Joseph and Moses in Egypt, etc) (and in quite a few of them i actually found that some other person(s) had already more or less correctly found them themselves).

Originally posted by .Sidney


A much more straightforward answer is that Matthew was wrong. He admits that Joseph was afraid of Herod Archelaus, but gives no reason for it. Yet he has just told us how a King Herod was attempting to kill Jesus. Matthew made one King Herod into two. If we make them the same King (Herod Archelaus) this reconciles the account in Matthew with the details in Luke that are corroborated in Josephus. 


When ancient sources and modern sources seem to not be able to be reconciled the moderns always assert that the modern experts must be right and the ancient must be wrong. They always seem to start with assuming/asserting that sources are unreliable. I always just continue to thoroughly and objectively look for if there is any real quality match of the text with history, i don't give up just because of seeming difficulties unless there is found proof that the source is not historically true.

Maybe the historical evidences or explanations have already been found: there are some interesting pieces of information and ideas in these pages articles:
https://www.mysteriesofthemessiah.net/2016/01/04-03-09-bethlehem-c-6-5-b-c-the-registration-or-census/
http://www.askelm.com/star/star014.htm
http://www.thebuttschurch.org.uk/features/articles.php?id=star
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/firstcensus.htm
http://followers-of-yahwshua-ha-mashiach.weebly.com/concerning-yahwshuas-birth-and-death-dates.html
http://adamoh.org/TreeOfLife.lan.io/NTCh/CometsAndEclipsesCorrelatedWithHistoricalRecords.htm

Matthew clearly says Herod the king [of the Jews] died before Archelaus.
Josephus does say Herod had madness and did some killings similar to that in Matthew.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2018 at 21:16
Originally posted by .Sidney

Originally posted by Arthur-Robin


Jesus seemingly can only have been born between 12 bc and 3 bc. 

Why?


Jesus was born in reign of Augustus 44/43/31/27/19 bc - ad 14.
Jesus was born in reign of Herod the Great 47/44/40/38/37 - 4/1 bc.
Jesus was born in or before Quirinius 14 (Cyrene), 12 (consul), 12-1/5-3, 10-7 bc, 4-1 bc, 6/7-11/12 ad.

These give us 14-4/1 bc (though depends on Luke's Quirinius verse which is uncertain as to correct meaning).

There was a "census/registration/enrollment/decree" at his birth:
"censuses"/decrees: 86 bc? 69 bc (41 years before 1st one of Augustus), julius caesar annual tribute decree, 28 bc (Augustus), "census of Herod 12 bc", 12/11 bc (Dio Cassius?); 9/8/7 bc (Augustus, Josephus 16:6:1-8); may or may not have been 14 yearly one in 7/6 bc (not recorded)? 3 bc (mass oath), 6/7 ad (Quirinius), 13/14 ad (Augustus), 20 ad (14 yearly), 33/34 ad (14 yearly), 312 ad (indiction).

There was a star either at his birth or 1-2 yrs before or after his birth:
stars: 44/24 (Caesar's), 42 bc (temple of comet star), 17 bc comet? 12/11/9 (Halley's), 9, 7/6 bc, 6, 5 bc object/tailed-comet/nova, 4 bc comet with no tail, 3 bc, 3-2, 2, 1 bc, none in 0, comets 9 ad (Dio Cassius), ban on astrology in ad 11, Tiberius interested in astrology and nativities between 14-37 ad, 66 ad (Halley's).

And he was "about 30" [25-35] in 15th year of Tiberius (ad 12/13/14/15-37).

So we have 12 bc to 3 bc in my tentative opinion.

Period of census in different sources: 21/20 yrs, 14 yrs, 11 yrs, 7 yrs, or 5 yrs.


Edited by Arthur-Robin - 28-Feb-2018 at 21:22
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2018 at 06:02
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

 Jesus was born in reign of Augustus 44/43/31/27/19 bc - ad 14.Jesus was born in reign of Herod the Great 47/44/40/38/37 - 4/1 bc.
Jesus was born in or before Quirinius 14 (Cyrene), 12 (consul), 12-1/5-3, 10-7 bc, 4-1 bc, 6/7-11/12 ad.

These give us 14-4/1 bc (though depends on Luke's Quirinius verse which is uncertain as to correct meaning).[edited emphasis]
You are doing the exact thing I commented upon;
Originally posted by .Sidney

Generations of commentators on the Gospels have tried to reconcile Luke's census with Matthew's time of King Herod, and unanimously assume that Luke was wrong in some way and that Matthew was accurate. 

You have accepted the assumption that everyone else does - that Luke must be wrong in some way. The only reason to believe that Luke is wrong is the belief that Matthew must be right. 



Edited by .Sidney - 01-Mar-2018 at 06:06
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