Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

date of Badon &/or Arthur

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 937
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: date of Badon &/or Arthur
    Posted: 21-Jan-2018 at 01:33

In this thread we seek answer to mystery of what the true date of Badon and/or Arthur is.
The DEB of Gildas seems to imply that duce Ambrosius/Aurelius was the leader at the battle of Badon. (Bede possibly implies either Germanus or Ambrosius lead Badon?)
The HB of Nennius says dux "Arthur" was the leader in 12 battles of which the last one was Badon.
The Welsh Annals say Arthur lead battle of Badon. (Scholars have pointed out that Badon of the AC and Guinnion of the HB have similar details, so there might be 2 Badons, with Badon 1 matching Guinnion of the HB, and Badon 2 matching Badon of the HB.)
Evidence suggests "Arthur" may not have been the real original name of the real person that Arthur was, and Arthur seemingly may well be Ambrosius.
Gildas' information on Badon's date has some details which scholars are uncertain about: Did he mean 44 yrs from advent to Badon, or 44 yrs from Badon to writing? Did he mean his birthday was day of Saxons arrival or day of Badon? The correct dates of all the events (Saxon advent, Badon, writing, death) are not known for sure. Bede's information seems to be mainly based on Gildas'.
The Welsh Annals information on the date of Badon also has some uncertainties.

In this post we tentatively suggest that Badon may match "Benedict shone" 482 of the ASC, and Gildas' 44 years might be linked with Columba's 45 yrs of the ASC, and that Arthur's death may possibly match Natanleod slain in 508 of the ASC.
(I'm not sure whether Arthur died in 508/509 (Natanleod/Benedict) or 536 (Benedict/Camlan) or 574/575/577 (Bedcanford / Brendan / Pol Aurelian / Dyrham/Bath)?)


Firstly a list of the traditional and/or scholarly dates for a number of Arthurian things.


Aetius/Agitius: Aetius 446(-454) (Brynjulfson, Wiki); [Avitus 455-456? Egidius (Greg of Tours)? Agapetus 535-536?]

Vortigern: 373 + 28 = 400 (HB 66); 425/426/428 (Hergest); 449 (ASC); 455 (Brynjulfson).

Saxons arrival/advent: Germanic raiders/recruits/settlers 360 (Wiki); Picts/Irish/Saxons 397; 400 (HB 66); Picts/Scots/Saxons 408; 438 (ACb); Saxons 441 (Gallic); 443 (ASC); 446; 447 (HB, AC, Evans); Hengist/Horsa/Wipped 449 (ASC); arrival Saxons 449-456 (Bede); 469 (ACb); Saxons 473 (Brynjulfson); Aelle/Cissa/Cymen/Wlencing 477 (ASC); Cerdic/Cynric 495 (ASC); Porta/Beda/Mela 501 (ASC); Stuff/Wihtgar 514 (ASC); Ida 547 (ASC).

128 yrs (Hergest) : 390-518 (Kamlesh); 425/426/428-554 (Hergest, CB, Jones); 449-577.

Ambrosius/Aurelius: 1st victory 429-450/456 (Bede); 455 (ASC, Brynjulfson); c460 (Brynjulfson); 467 ("AC", Brynjulfson); 479 (major chronicle annals).

sidus/stars/comets (Uther Pendragon) : Northampton ["422"]/441/442 / 5th cent (Idatius / Marcellinus); Halleys 451/453 (Atilla)? Valentinian 455; 498/499 (chron of Edessa / Rogerof Wendover); Encke 1500 ya / 500 ad (forsyth petroglyph)? Halleys 530/535 (Michael the Syrian / John of Ephesus)? Camlan 538 (Roger of Wendover)? "562"? "Pendragon comet 574" (Hassell)? 650 (AC); 676 (AC); 678 (ASC); Halleys / broomstar 684 (1 source of Nuremberg chronicles, Chinese); 729 (ASC); 891 (ASC); 905 (ASC); 975 (ASC); 995 (ASC); 1066 (ASC); 1097 (ASC).

Eclipses: dark days 447 (AC); sun dark 530/535 (Michael the Syrian / John of Ephesus)? sun without brightness 536 (Vandals, Procopius); sky dark 538 (Irish); solar calends Martii 538 (ASC); solar calends Julius 540 (ASC); solar 624 (AC); solar 664 (ASC); solar 733 (ASC); lunar 795 (ASC); lunar 800 & 802 & 806 (ASC); solar 807 (AC, ASC); lunar 827 (ASC); lunar 831 (AC); solar 879 (ASC).

Arthur('s battles): Draco/Ursa (Hitching); 3349 bc (Waddell); Bronze Age (Drou); Ursus 776 bc (Belgian king list); Deoartavois 47-67 ad (Cruithne king list); LAC 180 (Malcor, Infopedia); 350-650 (Morris)? 421 (CMSM); 454 (Malory); 470 (HRB); 516/518 (AC); 537/539 (AC); great victory of KA on David's day 540/640; 542 (HRB); Arthur ap Pedr 570-580; Arthur ap Bicoir Britone 620/625; Art(h)us 631-650 (Swedish); 650 (Wace, Morris); 700 (infopedia); Arthen dies 807 (AC, Evans); Alan of Brittany (Zoetropo).

Supplicius (K Arthur, HRB, Howels): Celestine 422-432 (St Patrick); Simplicius 468-483 (Riothamus); Symmachus 498-514; Sergius 689 (Cadwaladr, HRB).

Easter: 438 (McCarthy & OCroinin); 453 (AC); 626 (ASC); 634 (ACb); 640 (ASC); 655 (ASC); 661 (ASC); 665 (AC); 685 (ASC); 716 (ASC); 768 (AC); 774 (ASC).

Birthdays: Ebur; 150 (AC); Brigit 454 (AC); David 458 (AC); Gildas not later than 498 (Life of David); David not later than 514 (Life of David); Columba 521 (AC); David 540/640 (Shakespeare/Welsh); Ethelbert 552 (ASC).

Badon/Bath (yr 44 DEB, section 50/56 HB, yr 63/71/72 AC, yr 69 HB? yr 128 Hergest, yr 222 AC) : Bladud 929-909/853 bc; Halleluyah Victory 429/430 ad (Bede, Higham, wiki); 430-440 (Higham); 470 (HRB); 482 (Easter tables, McCarthy & OCroinin); 485 (Snyder, Wood); 485-520 (Wood); Cayburn 488 (me); 490s (Wood); 492/493 (Bede, Evans); 494-497 (Morris); 496/497 (Wiki); 499-511 (Brynjulfson); 500/501 (DEB, Dumville, Evans); Bieda 501; 516 (AC); 516/517/518 (Gildas, Bede, Brynjulfson); 520 (Wood); great victory of KA on David's day 540/640 (Shakespeare/Welsh); 546 (AC version); before Ida/Melgwn 547 (HB, DEB); 554 (Hergest); Baodan/Baetan/Baitan son of Mac Erca (Irish, Pestano); Bath 577; 580 (Simon Stirling); 582/586/588 (Ardrey); Queen Badda/Baddo 589/587/586; battle of Badr 624 (Koran); Pontesbury 661 (ASC, Hunt); 634 (ACb); 2nd Badon 665 (AC); Bedwin 675 (ASC, Evans-Gunther); Ceadwall 686 (ASC, me); Bereford/Hereford 735/752/756/760 (me); Brunandune/Brunanburh 937 (Ethelwerd); 940/960 (HB).

Bede jumps from 447/456 (to 565) to 596.
Series of conflicts 455-519 (ASC, Brynjulfson).
Period of minimal Saxon activity 466-73
British Recovery 473-517 (Ashe)
only landings of Saxons on the coast 488-547 (Evans)
"ASC silent on Kent" 488-565 (Evans)
gap between Bretwaldas 491-560 (ASC)
"gap in Gildas 500-550" (Carroll).
emigration of Angles & Frisians to the Continent 510-555 (Evans).
No gains gap 519-552 (ASC, Brynjulfson).
"Essex not recorded king until Aescwine 527"?
Dorset British 658-710 (ASC, Brynjulfson).

Llongborth: 501/508; 710/712 (Wiki).

Camlan (yr 22, yr 92/93, cw126) : 537 (AC); 542 (HRB); 576 (Hergest); after Arthuret (Triads).

Gildas: 421 (CMSM)? d 512 (W. of M.); to Ireland 565 (AC); wrote 546 (Habington); d 570/572 (Irish, AC).

Plagues: 537 (AC); Justinian (Procopius); 547 (AC); Gregory 590-604 (Book of Hours); Emaus 639; London 644; 664 (ASC); 682/683 (AC).

Maelgwn (yr 10, yr 146) : d 547 (AC); Mailcun 559; Coinmagil 577; 586 (Hergest); at Arthuret (DMT).

Arthuret (yr 10, yr 128/129, yr 152) : before Camlan (Triads); time of Maelgwn (DMT); 573 (AC); 593 (Hergest, CB, Jones).

Elvod 613 (ASC?); 755 (OEC).

Nennius 55 bc (HRB); 613 (ASC?); 796 (Brynjulfson, OEC); 438 + 421 = 858 (HB); 946/976 (HB); 447 + 542/547 = 989/994 (HB, OEC).


We can guess from these that Badon (1) and/or Arthur (1) must be somewhere between 420 and 599. (Badon 2 and/or Arthur 2 is in the 600s.)

Now a look at the decades of 420-599.

Arthur &/or Gildas 421 (Chron Mt St Mich)
From Patrick 421 yrs (HB)
Vortigern 426 (Hergest)
Patrick left Menevia 428 (AC)
Halleluyah Victory 429/430 (Bede)
1st victory of Ambrosius 429-450/456 (EH)
Palladius/Patrick 429/430 (ASC)
Badon 430 (Bede, Higham, wiki)
Moses Crete Xpi 431 (ASCe)
Patrick landed in Wicklow 432
arrival Patrick in Ireland 438 yrs ad (HB mss)
Easter cycle 438 (McCarthy & OCroinin).

Some have implied that Bede's Badon may match the Halleluyah Victory of Germanus 429. There doesn't seem to be much of a strong case for Badon being in the 420s-430s. The 420s/430s dates seem to be closer to the arrival or start of career or first battle of "Arthur"/"Patrick". (Patrick has several similarities correspondences with Arthur which seem to suggest that they might be the same person. Arthur's battles come immediately before or after Patrick's life in the HB of Nennius. The ASC 431 entry is very similar to Patrick's 432 event, and Patrick is compared to Moses in the HB.)

Patrick 438 yrs ad (23 x 19) (HB ms)
Badon 44 yrs from easter cycle of 438 (McCarthy & OCronin)
Euric 440
Badon 440 (Higham)
Atilla 443 (ASC)
Cadwallon 443
Martin died 444 (ASC)
444th yr (Ethelwerd)
Badon 44 yrs (Gildas)
Germanus 445
Cunedda 446
John Baptist 448 (ASC).

The 44 yrs of Gildas might be connected with the 440s. There are quite a few 440s dates that may be connected with Arthur. (Arthur has close similarities connections with Cunedda &/or Cadwallon Lawhir, and with Martin.)
John the Baptist 448 (ASC) might be connected with the first battle of Glein of Arthur, or with Patrick/"Moses" of 431/432?
The 44 yrs of Gildas might be 440-484 (Euric)?

long knives massacre 460
c460 Saxon victories in the ASC largely confined to coastal areas
Riothamus 460/470 (Sidonius, Jordanes, Greg of Tours)
Period of minimal Saxon activity 466-73
Guitolinus, Cat-Wallop ("AC", Brynjulfson) 467
Vincentius 468
4th yr + 69th yr Decius & Valerian (HB) = 72 (AC)
Badon 470 (HRB)
470 winters Romans in Britain (ASC)
4th/last battle of Vortimer 473 (Evans)
British Recovery 473-517 (Ashe)
DEB 479 (Higham).

It has been suggested that the number of slain at Badon in the HRB might be its date. From the above list we see that there is a link of the two 460 and 470 slain dates, and/or possibly the battle of Cat-Wallop and/or the 69th year of the HB may match Badon, but otherwise there doesn't seem any strong match for Badon in the 470s. There are some possible evidences of a 10 or 12 years period being connected with Arthur &/or his battles, and it is possible that battle(s) date(s) is 10-12 years out in some sources.

There is a possibility that the Cat-Gwaloph battle of Ambrosius/Aurelius & Guitolinus/Vitalinus is the same as Guinnion/Badon. The name Cat-Wallop and Embres-Gueltic might be connected with Cadwallon Lawhir "long/tall hand/arm" and with Gwallawg of Taliesin whose name might be connected with Gavael-vawr "great grasp" of the Pa Gur whose battles possibly resemble Arthur's. Cunedda's and Cadwallon's battles with the Liethali/Bethan or Gwyddyl/Wyddel/Gwyddelians are very similar to Arthur's battles. Guinnion/Guynon/Guindoin/Gurnion/Vindionon name may possibly be connected with either Gwarth Ennian (and Dinguerin/Dinguayth Guarth), or with Guitolinus/Vialinus and with Quintilianus of the HRB?

Vita Germanus 480/480s
Decius & Valerian consuls 480/529 (HB, Wiki)?
12 yrs + 69 yrs = 81 yrs (HB)?
start of Arthur's battles 482 (Evans)
Badon 482 (McCarthy & OCroinin)
Benedict shone in world 482 (ASC)
Pope Felix 3 was 43 yrs old in 483
Ambrosius 83 yrs old (Brynjulfson).
Brendan born 484 (Brewer's)
Euric 484 [44 yrs links, link with Riothamus].
DEB composed 484 (Higham)
84 yrs easter cycle (McCarthy & OCroinin)
3 futile/frivilous battles Triad 84
Badon 485 (Snyder, Wood)
Glein 486 (Wiki)
454 yrs (Malory) "= 487 ad".
Eldol beheads Hengist (HRB), Hengist died 488 (ASC, Evans, Cooper)
Battle of Cayburn 488
only landings of Saxons on the coast 488-547 (Evans)
"ASC silent on Kent" 488-565 (ASC, Evans).

We can see that the 480s seems likely to match Badon for a number of possible correspondences reasons. I have thought for some time that Badon may be connected with the traditional battle of Cayburn 488. It is our tentative opinion that Badon (482) may match "Benedict shone" 482, and also Brendan born 484. Gildas' birthday and the 44 yrs of Badon in the DEB of Gildas might be connected with the 45 yrs of Columba in the 560 entry of the ASC, and this entry detail might be connected with the Benedict 482 entry of the ASC (560 minus 77 yrs (including 44 yrs) = 482). Benedict, Brendan, Arthur and Pol Aurelian de Leon all have connections with monasteries. Then it is also interesting that the Badon date of McCarthy & OCroinin may have been connected with the 84 yrs easter cycle. In the HRB Badon may possibly be connected with Eldol beheads Hengist (488)? (Though I might be wrong about Eldol. Mt Damen in the HRB may be Mt Badon.)
The 44 yrs of Gildas might be 440-484?

* Benedict & Arthur both similar monasteries links? :
Benedict father of all monks (ASC)
Arthur built/founded monasteries in some source(s)?
Beneventian monastery in Arthurian saints lives?
The 12 Monasteries list matches the 12 battles of Arthur?
Brendan oversaw 3000 monks of houses he founded.
Pol Aurelian established monasteries in Finistere. Founded monastery in an abandoned fort in city of St Pol de Leon. (Pol is linked with Ambrosius & Arthur.)
St Paulinus of Wales founded churches/chapels around Llandovery.
Arthur in the Sts Lives "is a sort of military despot who tried to plunder the property of Welsh monasteries".

Badon 490 (Sayles)
Badon 490s (Wood)
Early Gildas DEB c490 (Halsall)
start of Arthur's battles 491 (Evans)
Badon 491/492/493 (DEB/Bede, Jackson, Evans)
491-560 gap between Bretwaldas (ASC)
Patrick 492
yr 6000 betw 492 & 508
Guinnion 493 (Wiki)
Michael appeared Mt Gargano 493
Badon 494-497 (Morris)
Badon 496/497 (Wiki)
Gildas birth no later than 498 (Life of David).

Modern orthodox scholars have often favoured Badon being in the 490s. We can see from the above list that the Gargano one is the one major possible match for Badon in the 490s, and/or possibly a couple/few other candidates. Otherwise the 480s seems more likely, though a couple/few of the 490s ones are certainly noteworthy.

Badon 500 (avg, Bede, Dumville, Jackson, wiki)
Badon section 50/56 (HB).
Ebur rests 501 (AC)
Badon 501 (DEB, Evans)
Llongborth 501/508
start of Arthur's battles 506 (Evans)
yr 6000 betw 492 & 508
Patrick letter to Coroticus 508
Natanleod & 5000 slain 508 (ASC)
Benedict ascended to heaven 509 + 53 yrs = Columba 560 (ASC)
emigration of Angles & Frisians to the Continent 510-555 (Evans)
"scholars now think Badon 518 is 10-15 years too late".

"Benedict ascended" 509 might be connected with Badon 500/518.
However, it would appear from these 500s dates that Arthur's death (at Camlan "537") may match Benedict's ascent to heaven 509 and Natanleod's death 508. (Its looks possible that 537 was corruption of an original 508/509.) Arthur's and Natanleod's death may have been in the vicinity of the 'city of the legion' Richborough/Rutupi. Natanleod might be from gwledig Naw Cant Lliwed "ruler of 900 (warrior) companies", and the 5000 slain with him also may be the legion. Llongborth also might match the city of the legion (and) Richborough/Rutupi?

emigration of Angles & Frisians to the Continent 510-555 (Evans)
DEB 510-530 (Karen George)
Gildas death 512 (W. of M.)
David born no later than 514 (Life of David)
514 is the 56th yr (Ethelwerd)
DEB 515 (Sullivan)
Badon 516/518 (AC, Jackson, Evans) + 44 yrs = Columba 560 (ASC)
Cadwallon Lawhir 517
No gains gap begins 519 (ASC)
KA subdues Ireland 519.

The traditional 516 date for Badon doesn't seem to have any major match in other sources like the ASC. It seems that the date originated from some mis-calculation of years dates of Badon (section 50/56 HB, yr 44 DEB, yr 63/71/72 AC, yr 69 HB? yr 128 Hergest) and/or of Gildas (44 yrs).

Badon 520 (Wood)
Columba born 521 (AC)
Padarn to Ireland c 524
Dionysius 527 (Playfair).

DEB 530 (Sullivan)
Calendar changed from AUC to AD 530-532
paschal yr of Dionysius Exiguus 532 (EH, Florence)
532 yrs (19 x 28) luni-solar cycle
Patrick's disciple Mochta died in 535/537
Cerdic dies 534 (ASC) [at Badon (HRB)]
Benedict died 536 (Matt of Westminster)
Camlan 537 (AC)
eclipse calends Martii 538 (ASC).
Great Victory of Arthur on St Dave's day 540/640;

The only one great possible match for Badon (or Guinnion) in the 530s is the calends of Martii 538 of the ASC. The two ASC entries of 538 and 540 might match the battles of Guinnion/Dover (St Martin) and Legions/Richborough (St Julius)? Wihtgar(asburh) might possibly be connected with Guinnion & Dover? Otherwise the 530s dates seem more connected with death like Camlan rather than with Badon. Camlan 537 (& Benedict 536) is possibly a corruption from an original Natanleod slain 508 & Benedict ascended 509. (Is this 30 years out from difference between Christ's birth and passion date?) Nennius' and/or Gildas' dates might have a link with Dionysius Exiguus era?

Great Victory of Arthur on St Dave's day 540/640;
eclipse calends Julius 540 (ASC);
542 yrs to Edmund (HB);
Camlan 542 yrs ad (HRB);
Columba: pestilence 544.
Wihtgar died 544 (ASC)
Badon 546 (AC version)
Gildas wrote DEB 546 (Habington)
547 yrs (HB);
Ida, Bebbanburh 547 (ASC);
Maelgwn & plague 547 (AC);
548 yrs Darius - Christ (HB)
Gildas contemporary of Ainmire 548-551 (Evans).

The only major possible candidate for Badon of 540s is Bebbanburh in the 547 entry of the ASC. Nennius said Arthur's battles were down until time of Ida (547). Bebbanburh is similar to *Badon-byrig, and Bebba is similar to Badda of "Badda's Fort".

Gildas contemporary of Ainmire 548-551 (Evans)
"Sarum" 552 (ASC)
Badon 554 (Hergest) [after "Severn" (HRB)]
Nynnio ap Erb c 555-595
Beranbury 556 (ASC)
Badon section 50/56 (HB).

Columba moves to Iona 560/565 (ASC)
Badon section 50/56 (HB).
Columba moves to Britain 562 (AC)
Columba & Loch Ness monster 565
Gildas moves to Ireland 565 (AC)
great battle Mon(a) 565
Gildas contemp of Ainmire 566-569
Baodan/Baetan/Baitan son of Mac Erca 566/567 in Irish
Wibbandune 568 (ASC)
synod of victory 569 (AC)
Santa Maria de Bretona was a Celtic bishopric from ca569 (Galicia).

The one great possible match for Badon in the 560s is great battle Mon(a) 565, and/or Wibbandune 568 (ASC) and the synod of victory 569 (AC). Ethelbert has similarlites with Arthur or Uther. Osla was at Badon in Dream of Rhonabwy, and Oslake was at Wibbandune in the ASC. Columba's details of the 560 entry of the ASC seemingly may be linked with the 44 yrs of Gildas. Columba means "dove" and may be linked with white Guinnion/Dover?

570 men from Linnuis at Catraeth
Bedcanford 571 (ASC)
Gildas died 570/572 (AC)
Arthuret 573 (AC)
Gildas conemp of Ainmire 573-576
Brendan died 574/577 (AC)
3 days siege Ynys Metcaut 575 (Wiki)
Pol Aurelian died 575
end of peace that followed Badon 577
Dyrham/Bath 577 (ASC).

The 3 days siege Ynys Metcaut 575 has a similarity with Badon, but otherwise there is no major candidate for the battle of Badon in 570s and the dates are more like decline/defeat/death dates. The "Bath" of 577 might possibly be Badon site (not date) but if it is it is only a later retaking of the site by Saxons. Three of the sites in the 571 entry have names similar to 3 of Arthur's battle sites (Bassas, Guinnion, Legions), and the 577 sites might also be battle sites too so that we may possibly have the 9 battle sites of the HB in the two ASC entries?

Abbreviations:
AA = Ambrosius Aureli(an)us / Aurelius Ambrosius
AC = Welsh Annals
ASC = Anglo-Saxon Chronicle
CB = Cambro-Briton
CMSM = Chronicle Mt St Michel
DMT = Descent of the Men of the North
DEB = Gildas
EH = Bede
KA = "(King) Arthur"
HB = Nennius
HRB = Geoff of Monmouth
LAC = Lucius Artorius Castus
OEC = Old English Chronicles
W. of M. = William of Malmesbury
wiki = wikipedia
Yr(s) = year(s)



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 21-Jan-2018 at 07:16
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2018 at 09:33
A great summary of the evidence.

Might I add that Gildas gives another clue as to date? 

Gildas [DEB Ch.26] writes that the siege of Badon was almost the last battle between the invaders and the Britons. He says that those who saw the great victory at Badon had "remembrance of such terrible desolation of the island, as also of the unexpected recovery of the same". But they have passed away and a younger generation have grown up who "were ignorant of this troublesome time, and had only experience of the present prosperity". This later generation (wherein Gildas lives) is a time when "our foreign wars having ceased, but our civil troubles still remain.."

So Gildas is showing that the invaders have ceased their active desolation of the land, allowing the Britons to recover their prosperity and forget the strife they were once under.

This ties in with the often neglected prophecy that Gildas reported from the invaders [DEB Ch.23] "that they should occupy the country to which they were sailing three hundred years, and half of that time, a hundred and fifty years, should plunder and despoil the same."

Why would Gildas mention this, if it didn't have some bearing on his narrative? He is writing at a time  when the Saxon plundering had ceased. Therefore (from his perspective) half of the prophecy had come true. His writing was prompted in order to exhort his fellow Britons to return to civilised behaviour, and he was looking towards the time when the second half of the prophecy could be fulfilled (assuming that after 300 years the Britons would regain fully their island).

Whilst it is a false prophecy, Gildas is placing Badon in hindsight at the midway point in this supposed prophetic chronology. Almost 150 years after the invaders first decided to arrive.

If the invaders arrived in the early 5th Century, then Badon is in the mid to late 6th Century.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2018 at 09:52
This 300 year prophecy also underpins Bede's chronolgy (or the sources he was using) and might even have motivated the production of his History.

Remember that the Saxons were meant to 'spoil' the land for 150 years, and then exist another 150 years, after which their fate is left hanging.

Whilst the siege of Badon was Gildas' midway point, for Bede it is the coming of St.Augustine in 597 AD. Gildas was showing the Britons that their release from the Saxons was approaching, therefore they ought to shape up and be more worthy. Bede, predictably, ignores the Briton perspective, and massages the chronology to say that the Saxons arrived in 449AD (although it is clear even in his own narrative that they were in Britain before that) and thus has Augustine baptizing the Saxon Kings 150 years later. Bede replaces Gildas' (potentially) holy Britons with his own (actually) holy Saxons.

Bede himself was writing in 731AD at a time that was nearing the end of the prophecy's second 150 years (in Bede's 'new' chronology this would be 749AD). No one knew what was going to happen after that (another invasion? the Second Coming?) so Bede needed to record the great deeds and unusual portents that might have significance for this as yet unknown event.  


Edited by .Sidney - 23-Jan-2018 at 09:59
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 937
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2018 at 15:52

Good point(s) thanks Sidney. Yes Gildas mentions 150 yrs half of 300 yrs (DEB 23) and Prophecy of Merlin mentions similar (HRB bk 7 chap 3) which i did notice and consider abit but indeed didn't think to include.
However the dating is problematic because we don't know for sure the correct start (&/or middle &/or end) date(s).
516-665 = 150 yrs (AC)
458-601 David dates range (AC)
421-572 = 150 yrs Gildas life dates range.
396 yrs Cerdic to Alfred (ASC)
350-650 Morris?
350 yrs old Ebur in 501 (AC)
300 yrs Saxons (DEB, HRB)
156 ad Lucius [Eleutherius] (HRB)
152nd yr Arthuret
151 ad Ebur (AC)
150 yrs Saxons (DEB/Gildas)
150th yr (447-)597(-731) ad (EH/Bede)
146 yrs Cunedda (HB)
146 Maelgwn died (AC)
147/146/100 yrs St David
St Pol/Paulinus lived to 140 yrs.
129/128th yr Arthuret
128 yrs (3 generations of 44 yrs) Vortigern to Badon (Hergest)
cw126 Camlan
120 yrs (3 x 40) Patrick/"Moses" (HB)
100 yrs (Methusalem) Gildas wrote later (OEC, DEB)
Bede thought Gildas' 44 yrs was from arrival/advent of Saxons to Badon which would conflict with 150 yrs from Saxons to Badon.
Maybe you are right that the 150 years starting point of 447/449 is the point from which the 44 yrs of Badon goes from and thus the orthodox 493 may be the correct date for Badon matching Michael appeared at Mt Gargano 493. Though i still favour 482/485/488.
(I'm not sure if there are hints that some people secretly know more (know the truth).)



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 24-Jan-2018 at 01:35
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2018 at 09:01
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin


Bede thought Gildas' 44 yrs was from arrival/advent of Saxons to Badon which would conflict with 150 yrs from Saxons to Badon.
Maybe you are right that the 150 years starting point of 447/449 is the point from which the 44 yrs of Badon goes from and thus the orthodox 493 may be the correct date for Badon matching Michael appeared at Mt Gargano 493. Though i still favour 482/485/488.
(I'm not sure if there are hints that some people secretly know more (know the truth).)

In this scenario (where the 300 year prophecy is being used by Gildas/Bede and maybe others) the constant is the 150 years from the invasion.

Bede does not agree with Gildas over the date of the 150 years because he had a different agenda. Whilst Gildas (as a Briton) saw the Britons as God's people, Bede (as a Saxon) saw the Saxons as God's people. 

As I said, Bede places the invasion in 449AD in order to make it fit with his 150 years leading up to the arrival of St.Augustine. 449AD was not the real date of invasion, since Bede himself refers to Germanus repulsing the Saxons (in the 420s) in Britain. But he fudges the chronology and order of his narrative to try and preserve his date of 449AD.

This date has mislead all subsequent historians, who have also followed Bede's claim that Badon was 44 years after his 'new' invasion date. The 44 years comes direct from Gildas, but in Gildas the sentence is ambiguous as to whether he means that the date is 44 years from the invasion, or 44 years from his own nativity. Bede's misleading history has led translators to assume the former translation, whereas the context of Gildas (talking about the generation that has grown up after the siege of Badon) would suggest the latter. 

Assuming Gildas was writing about 44 years after Badon, then the mention of 100 years to Aurelius Conanus is an allusion to the prophecy, ie. that about 100 years are left before the whole is fulfilled. 

If we acknowledge that Bede's dates (if not his details) are unreliable, then maybe the date of Badon will become clearer. 


Edited by .Sidney - 24-Jan-2018 at 09:07
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 937
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2018 at 14:15

You make very good points, but i don't see that it helps because there are problems with the figures: What is the correct invasion/advent date? Is Badon 44 yrs or 71 yrs or 128 yrs or 150 yrs from that date? Is the 44 yrs forward from the Saxons advent or backward from Gildas writing DEB? Is the period from Badon to Gildas writing 10 yrs or 44 yrs or 100 yrs (you said one and then said the other and seems confusing)? Is Gildas birthday on the day of Saxons arrival or day of Badon? What date his Birthday? Etc.
I don't see any much match for Badon 44 yrs or 150 yrs from 429 (473 or 579)? Nor does Badon seem likely to be 597.

I myself see the info in HB (55 &) 66 as more important for Badon date than the DEB or EH. I believe Badon may match Cat-Waloph, and/or match Decius & Valerian 69 yrs (which is close to AC's 72 yrs). I also think Gododdin may be Badon/Guinnion, but it doesn't have any definite dates info in it.

NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2018 at 18:06
My proposition is;
Invasion of Saxons with a 300 year prophecy.
Badon occurred near the end of the first 150 years of that prophecy//Gildas believed that he was writing in a time after the first 150 years.
Gildas wrote 44 years after Badon (he was born at the time of Badon) 

So the key is to establish when Gildas believed the invasion occurred. 

Gildas first talks about invaders when he mentions the Scots and Picts who plundered Britain when Maximus took the army forces to Europe. This was in the late 380s AD. 150 years after that is the late 530s AD. So if we use that chronology, Badon would therefore have occurred in the late 520s-530sAD, which puts Gildas writing around 570-584AD.

Of course, Gildas explicitly links the 300 year prophecy with the Saxon invasion, not the Picts and Scots. But he is difficult to pin down as to the Saxon date. Early 5th Century is the closest we can get, although the letter to Agidius ought to provide a clue - but it doesn't! (It is inconclusive who Agidius was, or who Gildas thought he was). If the Saxons came c.430, then Badon was c.560-575, and Gildas was writing c.605-620AD.

The date that Bede assigns the invasion - 449AD - is too late. It is part of Saxon mythology and their re-writing of history. It is unsupported by non-Saxon sources.


Edited by .Sidney - 24-Jan-2018 at 18:08
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2018 at 19:58
But I don't want this to detract from your own research.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2018 at 20:16
The NEB has numerous references to the time that Vortigern received the Saxons;

A) From the first arrival of the Saxons into Britain, to the fourth year of king Mermenus, are computed four hundred and twenty-eight years;

B) The Saxons were received by Vortigern four hundred and forty-seven years after the passion of Christ, and, according to the tradition of our ancestors, from the period of their first arrival in Britain, to the first year of the reign of king Edmund, five hundred and forty-two years; and to that in which we now write, which is the fifth of his reign, five hundred and forty-seven years. 

C) When Gratian Aequantius was consul at Rome, because then the whole world was governed by the Roman consuls, the Saxons were received by Vortigern in the year of our Lord four hundred and forty-seven, and to the year in which we now write, five hundred and forty-seven.  

D) Vortigern reigned in Britain when Theodosius and Valentinian were consuls, and in the fourth year of his reign the Saxons came to Britain, in the consulship of Feliz and Taurus, in the four hundredth year from the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

E) From the year in which the Saxons came into Britain, and were received by Vortigern, to the time of Decius and Valerian, are sixty-nine years. 

F) Claudius, who reigned forty-seven years after the birth of Christ. He carried with him war and devastation; and, though not without loss of men, he at length conquered Britain.

G) Thus, agreeably to the account given by the Britons, the Romans governed them four hundred and nine year.  After this, the Britons despised the authority of the Romans, equally refusing to pay them tribute, or to receive their kings; nor durst the Romans any longer attempt the government of a country, the natives of which massacred their deputies.

H)  The Romans, therefore, came with a powerful army to the assistance of the Britons; and having appointed over them a ruler, and settled the government, returned to Rome: and this took place alternately during the space of three hundred and forty-eight years.

I) After the above-said war between the Britons and Romans, the assassination of their rulers, and the victory of Maximus, who slew Gratian, and the termination of the Roman power in Britain, they were in alarm forty years. Vortigern then reigned in Britain. 

J) The more the Saxons were vanquished, the more they sought for new supplies of Saxons from Germany; so that kings, commanders, and military bands were invited over from almost every province. And this practice they continued till the reign of Ida, who was the son of Eoppa, 

Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 937
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2018 at 01:54
I am reasonably sure that the 40/43/44/45 yrs of Badon of the DEB of Gildas is connected with one or more of these:

42 yrs Africa (HB 15);
Claudius invasion 43/47 ad;
42 yrs in prison Jose of Arimathea;
Stilicho 4400 (R. of C., Claudian);
alarm 40 yrs after Maximus (HB);
40 (HB 31) / 47 yrs (HB 21) + 400 +/- 4 (HB 66) = 447 (HB 15, 31, 50);
40 days/nights Germanus (HB 47);
Halleluyah Victory curbed invasion threat for a generation (EH);
Patrick 16 yrs + 25 yrs = 40 yrs (HB)? *
40 yrs Patrick (HB 54); *
405 yrs + 40 yrs +/- 4 yrs (HB 16); *
Patrick 85 yrs like Moses (2 x 40, HB 55); *
Patrick 120 yrs (3 x 40, HB); *
40 days Patrick (HB 55);
43rd Pope Celestine (St Patrick, HB, ASC);
easter 438 to 482 (McCarthy & OCroinin); *
Vortimer's battles in section 44 of HB; *
Euric 440-484 (Riothamus); *
Cadwallon 443 (John Williams); *
Atilla the Hun 443 (ASC);
444th yr (Ethelwerd); *
Martin ad 444 (ASC);
40 days St Martin (Brewer's);
Socrtaes Scholasticus 445;
"446 ad" Cunedda? *
447/449-491/492/493 (Bede, Evans);
40 ships Octa (HB);
Gaetica chapter/section 45 (Riothamus, Jordanes); *
28 + 12 +/- 4 (Ambrosius vs Guitolinus, HB 66); *
473-517 (Ashe);
Benedict shines 482 (ASC) to Columba 521 (AC) = almost 40 yrs? *
Benedict 482-536 = 54 yrs is also/alternatively possibly similar to 44 yrs?
Benedict shines 482 (ASC) & Badon 482 (McCarthy) to Columba 560 = 77 yrs (including 44 yrs & 32 yrs, ASC)? *
birth Gildas 493 to 537 (Damo);
495-538/540 (me previously);
501-546 (Evans);
510-555 (Evans);
514-552/554/556 (me previously);
516 to 560 (Damo);
Columba 77 yrs old minus 32 yrs = 44/45 yrs old from birthday (560, ASC); *
Badon 516 (Welsh Annals) to Columba 560 (ASC); *
Columba 521 (AC) to Columba/Ida 560/565 (ASC); *
Columba linked with Jonah (40 days);
Camlan 22nd yr (half of 44, AC);
victory of Arthur on St David's (birth)day 540/640 (Shakespeare & the Welsh);
Camlan 542 (HRB);
Ida 542/544/547 to Badon 582/586/588 (Ardrey);
Theodoret & Evagrius 544;
pestilence 544 (Columba);
Badon 128 yrs (3 x 40, Hergest);
Nynnio ap Erb 555-595;
40 days Rhun (HB 63).

I have asterisked the ones I think are more important/likely.
Frustratingly and unfortunately I don't know how to rearrange my information in above posts to more clearly show all the combined evidences for my own Badon date theory. The issue is just getting confused/clouded by different claims. I can't waste much more time on this. My own theory could be wrong and it sounds like you might secretly know the real date.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 25-Jan-2018 at 01:59
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
Back to Top
Calebxy View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 09-Jan-2018
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2
  Quote Calebxy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2018 at 17:24
Originally posted by .Sidney

Whilst it is a false prophecy, Gildas is placing Badon in hindsight at the midway point in this supposed prophetic chronology. Almost 150 years after the invaders first decided to arrive.

If the invaders arrived in the early 5th Century, then Badon is in the mid to late 6th Century.
You're the only other person I've ever seen who's open to the concept of Badon being in the mid-sixth century. 

I place Badon in c. 548, so if we assume that that battle is indeed meant to mark the halfway point in the 300 year 'prophecy', then that would place the arrival of the Saxons in about the turn of the fifth century. 

For what it's worth, the Historia Brittonum puts the arrival of the Saxons under Vortigern in 428 - much earlier than the untenable 447 date, but not early enough to accommodate a battle of Badon of 548. Unless, of course, the Saxons had actually arrived earlier than when they were hired as mercenaries by Vortigern. 

That latter option would actually tie in with a different statement in the Historia Brittonum. As you include in your most recent post on this thread, it says that the first arrival of the Saxons was 428 years prior to the fourth year of 'King Mermenus'. Taking this to be Merfyn Frych, King of Gwynedd (as, it seems, it universally accepted), then his fourth year would be 828, and so 428 years prior to that would be the year 400. That would tie in perfectly with the battle of Badon being in c. 548. 


Edited by Calebxy - 25-Jan-2018 at 17:29
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 937
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2018 at 18:40
I have seen a few theories for Badon in the 520 to 599 period.
Traditional ones, and/or ones of other researchers and/or previous ones of mine include:
eclipse calends Martii 538 (mine previously)
great victory of KA on David's day 540 (Shakespeare/Welsh)
Wihtgar died 544 may be Guinnion/Badon (Dover)
Badon 546 (AC version)
before Ida/Melgwn 547 (HB, DEB)
Ida & Bebbanburh 547 (ASC) name etc similar to Badon (before Ida in HB)
554 (Hergest)
Beranbury 556 (mine previously)
great battle Mon(a) 565 is similar
Wibbandune 568 & synod of victory 569 (i sometimes wondered if may match)
Baodan/Baetan/Baitan son of Mac Erca 566/567 (Irish, Pestano)
Arthuret/Gwendolau is similar to Guinnion/Badon
3 days siege Ynys Metcaut 575 is similar to Guinnion/Badon
Bath 577
580 (Simon Stirling)
582/586/588 (Ardrey)
Queen Badda/Baddo 589/587/586
Woddesbeorg 591 (i wondered if linked sometimes)

It sounds like yous are sure and agree that the 150 yrs is Badon date and is mid 500s. It might be right but i don't see any firm proof yet only possible hints.
Regarding the 150 yrs so far i found this possible answer:
There seems to be a pattern of dates in the HB of 47, 348, (438 or) 447 (or 458), (537 or) 547/146, 946.
It seems to suggest that the end of Gildas 150 yrs was either 547 (Ida/Maelgwn) or 560 (Columba). But i don't see proof yet that this is the date of Badon. Maelgwn's sleep might be linked with Vortimer's/Ambrosius'/Arthur's death at city of the legion just after Guinnion/Badon?


Edited by Arthur-Robin - 26-Jan-2018 at 19:12
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 937
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2018 at 19:02
Gildas Badon date has a possible link with St David:

Gildas: Badon connected with Gildas' birthday and 44 yrs (DEB).
David: 3 major birthdays of Columba, David and Brigit in the Welsh Annals.
David: Great victory of (King) Arthur against the Saxons on St David's (birth)day 540 or 640 (Shakespeare and the Welsh)?
David: "Patrick foretold David's birth" (HRB 11:3).

Gildas: birthday (DEB 26).
Columba: 3 birthdays of Brigit, David, Columba in Welsh Annals.

Gildas' dates range is (wrote 29/44/53 yrs, d 54/69/78 yrs ref Evans) 421 (CMSM)? b not later than 498 (Life of David), d 512 (W. of M.), wrote 546 (Habington, HB 31), voyage 565 (AC), d 570/572 (AC, Irish).

David's dates range is (32/65/100/146/147 yrs) b 458 (AC), b not later than 514 (Life of David), Ty Gwyn 527, day 540, synod c 545, 580s (Tigernach), buried by orders of Maelgwn late 6th cent, d 601 (AC), leeks/day 640? burnt 645 (AC).

However, my possible discovery was that Gildas birthday and 44 yrs may match Columba in the 560 entry of the ASC, and also match Columba in section 16 of the HB of Nennius (which mentions Patrick, Brigit and Columba) :

Gildas: 40/44 yrs
Columba: linked with Jonah (40 days).
Columba: pestilence 544.

Gildas: birthday and 44 yrs (DEB 26).
Columba: 45 yrs from birthday (ASC 560).
Columba 521 (AC) to Columba/Ida 560/565 (ASC) = 44 yrs.
Columba: 40 yrs from death of Patrick to Brigit, 4 yrs from birth Columba to death Brigit (HB 16).

Gildas: Badon date is somehow linked with Gildas birthday and/or 44 yrs (DEB 26).
Columba: 560 minus 44 yrs (ASC) = Badon 516 (Welsh Annals).
Columba was born 4 yrs before death of Brigit, Brigit died in 521 in the AC which makes Columba born 516 which is the date of Badon in the AC.

Gildas: earliest date 421 (CMSM)?
Columba: born 521 (AC).

Gildas: 69 or 78 yrs old (in Evan's 'Arthurian Campaign').
Gildas born "c 500" & died 570/572 (Wiki).
Columba: 77 yrs old (ASC 560).

Gildas: moves to Ireland 565 (AC).
Columba: moves to Iona 560/565 (ASC).
Columba: moves to Britain 562 (AC).

Gildas: Badon/Bath date connected with his birthday & 44 yrs.
Brigit: 3 birthdays of Brigit, David, Columba in Welsh Annals.
Brigit: 40 yrs Patrick to death Brigit, 4 yrs birth Columba to death Brigit (HB 16).
Brigit: Benedict/Badon 482 + 40 yrs = Brigit d 521 (HB 16, AC 521).
Brigit might match "Mary" of Guinnion/Badon.

Gildas: Badon/Bath date connected with his birthday & 44 yrs.
Gildas meet St David's pregnant mother.
Patrick/Badrig: 40 yrs Patrick to death Brigit, 4 yrs birth Columba to death Brigit (HB 16).
"Patrick foretold David's birth" (HRB 11:3).
Patrick: 43rd Pope Celestine (HB, ASC).
Patrick: 16 yrs + 25 yrs = 40 yrs (HB)?
Patrick 40 yrs (HB 54).
40 days Patrick (HB 55).
Patrick 85 yrs like Moses (2 x 40, HB 55).
Patrick/easter 438 (HB) + 44 yrs = Badon 482 (McCarthy & OCroinin).
Patrick 120 yrs like Moses (3 x 40, HB 55).
405 yrs + x yrs +  40 yrs Patrick to Brigit +/- 4 yrs Columba to Brigit (HB 16).
Patrick has many similarities with Arthur which suggest that they might be the same.

Columba's dates range is (45 yrs + 32 yrs = 77 yrs ASC) b 521 (AC), 560/562/563/565 (AC, ASC), d 595 (AC).

Brigit's dates range is b 454 (AC), d 521 (AC).

Patrick's dates range is (7 yrs, 16/17 yrs, 25 yrs, 30 yrs, 40, 85, 120 yrs) [365 books?] b c 387/389 (Brewer's), 403 (popular writers & folk piety), 405 (HB), left Menevia 428 (AC), sent 429/430 (ASC), arrive 432 (Irish Annals), 433 (Life of Patrick), arrival 438 (HB), d 457 (AC), consul 459, d 461/2 (Irish Annals), 492 (Irish Annals), 496-508 (Coroticus), consul 500, relics 553 (60 yrs later, Irish Annals).

Furthermore the Columba info of the 560 entry of the ASC which may match Gildas 44 yrs may also possibly be linked with Benedict 482 and/or Benedict 509 of the ASC which may match Badon:

Gildas: Badon connected with birthday and 44 yrs.
Gildas: easter 438 + 44 yrs = Badon 482 (McCarthy & OCroinin).
Benedict: Benedict shines 482 (ASC) + 44 + 32 = Columba 560 (ASC)? (Gildas' words could possibly be seen as meaning Badon was 40/44 yrs before his birth?)
Benedict: Benedict shines 482 + 40 = Brigit/Columba 521 (HB 16, AC 521, ASC 560)?
(Benedict 482-536 = 54 yrs is also/alternatively possibly similar to 44 yrs?)
Benedict shines 482 & Brendan born 484 = Badon 482 (McCarthy & OCroinin) & Badon 485 (Snyder, Wood)?
Benedict Baducing died 689 close to Cadwaladr's death in AC & HRB.

Benedict dates range is: shines 482 (ASC), ascended 509 (ASC), rule 529 (Pears, Parker), d 536 (W. of M.), b 628, d 689.

Brendan dates range is b 484 (Brewer's), d 574/577 (AC, Brewer's).

Badon date might also/alternatively be connected with either Catgwaloph of Ambrosius and/or with the yr 69 consuls in section 66 of the HB of Nennius:

Gildas: Duce Ambrosius seems to be the leader of Badon.
Nennius: Dux "Arthur" is leader of Guinnion/Badon in the HB. The name of "(King) Arthur/Artorius/Art(h)us" might be a corruption of either Aureli(an)us or Aldroenus/Alatorius or Anthemius or Odoacer or Atilla Hun.
The name Cat-gwaloph and/or Emrys-gueltic might be connected with Cadwallon Lawhir whose battle(s) resembles Arthur's and/or Gwallawg whose battles resemble Arthur's battles.
Geoff of Monmouth: "Their names and acts are recorded in a book which Gildas wrote concerning the victory of Aurelius Ambrosius...."

Gildas: Badon date linked with birthday and 40/44 yrs.
Nennius: 28 + 12 +/- 4 yrs Catgwaloph Ambrosius vs Guitolinus (HB 66)?
Walop may be linked with Guinnion/Badon esp since there is a similar place name near Badbury?

Ambrosius/Aurelius: "...he dreaded the valour of Aurelius. Such was the bravery and courage this prince was master of, that while he was in Gaul, there was none that durst encounter with him. For in all encounters he either dismounted his adversary, or broke his spear. .... A brave soldier on foot, a better on horseback, and expert in the discipline of an army. Reports of these his noble accomplishments, while he yet continued in Armorican Britain, were daily brought over into the island." (HRB.)
Urien(s): His name might be from Aureli(an)us?
Urien: "Theodoric fought bravely, together with his sons, against that Urien. But at that time sometimes the enemy and sometimes our countrymen were defeated, and he shut them up three days and three nights in the island of Metcaut; and whilst he was on an expedition he was murdered, at the instance of Morcant, out of envy, because he possessed so much superiority over all the kings in military science." (HB 63.)
Rhun: "foremost in war".
Aurelius Conan: "a youth of wonderful valour" (HRB).

Arthur: "magnanimous" (HB)
Ambrosius/Aurelius: "a modest man" (DEB 25) Name Aurelius means "golden, fine, excellent".
Ambrosius/Aurelius: "... was magnificent in his presents, constant at his devotions, temperate in all respects, and above all things hated a lie. .... Reports of these his noble accomplishments...." "showed moderation in all his conduct" "the mercy of Aurelius" "Aurelius was moved with pity" "restores eccesiastical affairs" (HRB.)
Pol Aurelian: "preserver of the faith, constant lover of his country, champion of righteousness"
Atilla: "restrained in action, gracious to suppliants, lenient..."
Rhuvawn Pebr: "pious, hospitable"
Tudvwlch: "dignity".

Ambrosius/Aurelius dates range is (83 yrs old, AC 100 yrs) 1st victory 429-450/456 (Bede); 455 (ASC, Brynjulfson); c460 (Brynjulfson); 467 ("AC", Brynjulfson); 479 (major chronicle annals, wiki); Pol Aurelian synod c 545; Pol Aurelian de Leon d 575.

In summary i suggest that Gildas and Badon date may be connected with either of these: Columba HB 16, Patrick HB 55, HB 66, Benedict ASC 482, Benedict ASC 509, Columba ASC 560.

NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 937
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2018 at 05:08
It looks like you two might be right that Badon and the end of the 150 yrs of Gildas is ca 547.

This is a list of most of the possible candidates for Badon from the ASC and AC etc:

Halleluyah 429
Palladius/Patrick (Badrig) 429/430 [Mt Paladur]
Martin 444
Brigit 454 [Mary of Guinnion]
Catigern/Rithergabail 455
Catgwaloph "467" *
Benedict shines in world 482 *
Mearcraedes-burna/burnsted 485
Hengist dies 488
Cayburn 488 *
Michael appears Mt Gargano 493 *
Beda 501
Dragon's Hill 508
Benedict ascended 509 *
Cerdic dies 534
eclipse calends Martii 538 *
eclkipse calends Julius 540 ["Lord Jesus Christ" = Julius Caesar] *
great victory St David's day 540 *
Wihtgar died 544
Badon 546 (AC version)
Badon before Ida/Maelgwn 547 (HB, DEB)
Ida/DinGuyaroi/Bebbanburh 547 *
554 (Hergest)
Beranbury 556
St Martin, Hwiterne "long before 560" [Martin le Grand]
Columba/Iona "dove" 560/565 [Gildas 44 yrs]
great battle Mon(a) 565 *
Baodan/Baetan/Baitan son of Mac Erca 566/567 (Irish, Pestano)
Wibbandune 568 & synod of victory 569 *
Cattraeth/Eidyn/Gododin 570 *
Arthuret/Gwendolau 573 *
3 days Metcaut 575 (Urien) *
Bath 577
Badon 580 (Simon Stirling)
Badon 582/586/588 (Ardrey)
battle Isle of Man 584
Queen Badda/Baddo 589/587/586
Constantine 589
Woddesbeorg 591 *
Raith 596 / Cattraeth/Gododin 598/600 *
Beandune 614 *
hatfield / field of leeks /great victory St David's day 633/640 *
Cattraeth/Eidyn/Gododin 638
Bradford 652
Pontesbury/Ashdown/Wight 661 *
eclipse 664 *
Badon 2 665
Bedwin 675 *
Cadwaladr in Kent & Wight 686/687 *
Llongborth 710
golden dragon banner Bereford/Hereford 752/760

I asterisked the more/most likely candidates.
Since some people unfairly criticise me for lists and use any such excuse to refuse to credit me my discoveries/etc i will reduce the list of most likely candidates to these from the list:

482/485/488 493 509 538/540 (547) 565 568/569 570 573 575 (591) 598/600 (614 633/640 661/664/675/686/687)

It seems that possibly either the eclipse(s) of 538 and/or 540, or Wibbandune 568 might possibly be your ca 547 or 560 Badon event/date? If it does happen to be right then in all fairness to me i wish to say that i had previously myself actually thought that the 538/540 one was the date of Guinnion/Badon, and have also at times in the last 4 years thought the 568 one or other asterisked ones might be Badon/Guinnion, and also that it is not fair that some elite seem to secretly already long had information and have long-known the truth, and not fair that i been hindered by fluoridated water (& food) and situation. It is not fair that ihave never had any right things credited, only just either silence or negatives. (And others never admit any wrongs only ever insist they are experts and right.)

So my Benedict & Badon theory might be wrong. But my Gildas & Columba (or Gildas & David) theory i still think might be right?
There are also possible complications of more than one person "Arthur"? maybe two Aureliuses? and two Gildases? and two Badons?


Edited by Arthur-Robin - 27-Jan-2018 at 05:22
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2018 at 22:03

Take a closer look at those dates from Nennius;

A) From the first arrival of the Saxons into Britain, to the fourth year of king Mermenus, are computed four hundred and twenty-eight years;

Mermenus is identified as Merfyn Ferch, who died in 844 AD. There is no clear indication of when he started to reign. He may have been a sub/rival/invading King, but it is agreed that he reigned for over 20 years. The date indicated is therefore 400 AD minus the unknown regnal years.

B) The Saxons were received by Vortigern four hundred and forty-seven years after the passion of Christ, and, according to the tradition of our ancestors, from the period of their first arrival in Britain, to the first year of the reign of king Edmund, five hundred and forty-two years; and to that in which we now write, which is the fifth of his reign, five hundred and forty-seven years.

This is not 447AD, since Nennius is dating it from the Passion of Christ (sometime around 28 AD in Nennius). It is highly unlikely that Nennius or the succeeding monastic scribes would have mistaken the Passion for the Nativity, so the date indicated is 475AD. But he also says the date is 542 years before King Edmund. Edmund reigned from 939 AD, so the date becomes 397AD.   

C) When Gratian Aequantius was consul at Rome, because then the whole world was governed by the Roman consuls, the Saxons were received by Vortigern in the year of our Lord four hundred and forty-seven, and to the year in which we now write, five hundred and forty-seven. 

This repeats the numbers mentioned in B), but adds the name of the consul – Gratian Aequantius. It repeats the number of years before the author was writing, which again indicates 397AD.  So who is the consul? The name is identified as the joint consuls Gratianus and Equitius, who were in office in 374 AD.

D) Vortigern reigned in Britain when Theodosius and Valentinian were consuls, and in the fourth year of his reign the Saxons came to Britain, in the consulship of Feliz and Taurus, in the four hundredth year from the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Theodosius and Valentinian were consuls in 425AD, and Felix and Taurus were consuls in 428 AD. But the date is also given as 400 years after Jesus’ birth (the incarnation being Jesus’ nativity, not his crucifixion). Since Nennius seems to place Jesus’ birth in 5/4BC (see F below), then we have the date 396AD.  It is noticeable that Felix was prefect of Rome in 398 AD.

E) From the year in which the Saxons came into Britain, and were received by Vortigern, to the time of Decius and Valerian, are sixty-nine years.

Decius and Valerian do not appear as consuls, and are not given a title in the statement. There were two 3rd Century Emperors (Decius 249-251; Valerian 253-260 AD) making the dates some 69 years after them = c.320-330AD. However, there were also two prefects of Gaul (Decius 440; Valerianus 450s) making the date some 69 years before them = c.370-380AD. 

F) Claudius, who reigned forty-seven years after the birth of Christ. He carried with him war and devastation; and, though not without loss of men, he at length conquered Britain.

Claudius came to Britain in 43 AD, which indicates that Nennius’ chronology put Jesus’ birth (according to our modern chronology) in 5/4BC.

G) Thus, agreeably to the account given by the Britons, the Romans governed them four hundred and nine year.  After this, the Britons despised the authority of the Romans, equally refusing to pay them tribute, or to receive their kings; nor durst the Romans any longer attempt the government of a country, the natives of which massacred their deputies.

H)  The Romans, therefore, came with a powerful army to the assistance of the Britons; and having appointed over them a ruler, and settled the government, returned to Rome: and this took place alternately during the space of three hundred and forty-eight years.

G) and H) give two different time periods for Roman reign, 409 years, or 348 years. This is due to there being two dates for when the Romans conquered Britain. It was either Julius Caesar in 54 BC, or Claudius in 43 AD.  The years of G) 409, are dating from Julius Caesar and so = 356 AD. The years of H) 348, are dated from Claudius and so = 391 AD

I) After the above-said war between the Britons and Romans, the assassination of their rulers, and the victory of Maximus, who slew Gratian, and the termination of the Roman power in Britain, they were in alarm forty years. Vortigern then reigned in Britain.

This section follows on from G) (H looks like an addition), thus the year the Saxons came was 356 AD + 40 years = 396AD

J) The more the Saxons were vanquished, the more they sought for new supplies of Saxons from Germany; so that kings, commanders, and military bands were invited over from almost every province. And this practice they continued till the reign of Ida, who was the son of Eoppa,

Nennius is telling us that the Saxons stopped their successive plundering of the island in the reign of Ida (547-559AD).  Bearing in mind the prophecy from Gildas, then the reign of Ida marked the 150 year turning point in the prophecy. This means that (in this context) the invasion occurred c.397AD


So the dates in summary are;

A) no later than 400AD

B) 475 or 397AD

C) 374 or 397AD

D) 428 or 396AD

E) 320s or 370s AD

G)+I) 396AD

H) post 391AD

J) c.397AD

Thus the date of the invasion according to the chronology that Nennius was using, seems to be favouring c.397AD.



Edited by .Sidney - 27-Jan-2018 at 22:12
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 937
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2018 at 15:43
Your post seems to be right (though there are some things i am sceptical of).
Sorry but I am abit annoyed because i have been majorly hindered and lacking the last number of years/decades, while others have not been hindered and lacking).
I already tried looking up consuls lists dates etc but the information is scanty and contradictory.
Yours is working backwards from your already known (Badon date etc) but our unknown (dates etc).
I had at some times thought that Caesar's invasion date and Christ's were possibly resaon for 20/30/40 yrs difference, but i couldn't prove it and forgot.
Btw I don't like the Atlantis Rising avatar.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 29-Jan-2018 at 06:52
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 937
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2018 at 06:57
This might be wrong but just a new possibility i am wondering about:

Beandune/Bampton 614 (ASC) and Badon (HB) possible similarities?

Badon: name Badon/Bath/Baddesdown/Bannesdown/Bathampton Down. (Also compare Ethelwerd's Brunandune/Brunanburh?)
Beandune: name Beandun(e)/Bampton, "probably at Badbury Rings".
(Edwin of 617 is also similar to Bedwin which some have thought was Badon?)

Badon: was a "siege" (Gildas) and/or a "severe contest" (HB) [and it was at Portchester SS fort?]
Beandune: "likely to have been a siege", and "capture of the fort".

Badon: date 516/518 (AC) or "496". (Gildas 150 years prophecy.)
Beandune: date 614/615 (ASC). Plus, 616 was year "5618" in the ASC. 150 years also said to end in 715 exactly a hundred years after Beandune.
(Battle of Badr is 624 in Koran.)

Badon: 940/960/970/840 slain.
Beandune: 2066/2046/2040 / over 2000 slain.
(900 is almost/roughly half of 2000?)

Badon: Gildas prophecy of 150/300 yrs. (Date "496" in some sources.)
Beandune: is close to 150th yr in 597 in Bede's E.H., and the prophecy of Augustine fulfilled in 607 in the ASC. Year 5300 was in 606 in Ethelwerd. In Bede a 150 years is also said to end in 715 exactly a hundred years after Beandune (the 300 (2 x 150) years of Gildas also ends in later 700s).

Badon is year 71/72 in the Welsh Annals?
Beandune is almost year 170 in Bede's chronology?

Badon: comes after Bregion/Breguoin/Agned (Anderida/Pevensey).
Beandune: comes after Brocmail/"Chester" (607) or Aedan/Daegsanstane (603).

Badon: is last of series of 12 battles.
Beandune: "constantly fought with the Welsh" in 597 entry of ASC. "If the Welsh will not have peace" in 607. The 150 years of Gildas ended near the date of the battle.

Badon: fought by king Arthur (15 yrs old, 22 yrs, christian, adopted son of Merlin/Emrys/Ambrosius/Aurelius, etc).
Beandune: In the ASC king Ethelbert (8 yrs old, 21 yrs, christian, son of Ermenric, etc) is a possible candidate match for Arthur. Ethelbert died in the 616 entry just after the Beadune one. (Ethelings also mentioned in 617.) One source says the Welsh/Britons at Beandune probably led by Tewdwr ap Peredur.

Badon: Lancelot is Arthur's first knight.
Beandune: Laurentius mentioned in 516 has some similarities to Lancelot.

Badon: section 50 or 56 of the HB of Nennius.
Beandune: Ethelbert reigned 53/56 years according to 560/616 entry of the ASC. (Pentecost mentioned in 627.) 2nd battle of Badon 665 is 50 years later. ASC original text has numerals LXVI separately at end. Only 50 escaped from battle in 607 only 2 entries and only 7 years before Beandune. (A footnote in Bede's EH also says "50 years later" after Augustine the language of the Franks was regarded in as a barbara loquella in England.)

Badon: 44 yrs and 1 month before or after Badon in Gildas.
Beandune: not sure if there is any 44 yrs match but the 2nd of February is mentioned in 616 entry of the ASC just after the Beandune entry? "LXVI" at the end of the Beandune entry could be 44 if reverse the l & x, and the v & i?

Badon: fought chief Colgrin [Ceawlin? Cynric?]
Beandune: fought king Cynegils (and Cwichelm).

But please note that it seems that there are probably two (or more) Badons: Badon 1 is Guinnion of the HB [Dover (a.k.a. Braddon)], and Badon 2 is Badon of the HB (Portsdown Hill, Portchester/Adurni). This Beandune may not match Gildas' (Columba's?) 44 yrs, and Ida, etc. Guinnion (Badon 1) [Dover] might match oneof the battles in the 538-591 period (in my list of Badon candidates a few posts above/before this one)?


Edited by Arthur-Robin - 29-Jan-2018 at 07:24
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 937
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2018 at 07:03
Just for the record i post below a copy of recent summary of Benedict and Badon similarities, though as i said it now looks like it is probably wrong, and looks like yous are right that Badon (Guinnion?) is ca (538/540?-)547 or c 565(-573/577/591)? This summary doesn't include the important Columba & Gildas matches sorry.

Reasons why i had thought that "Benedict shines/ascended" 482/509 might be Badon include:

Both similar B- names (as ridiculed)
Badon(icus)/Badonici/Bath
Benedict
Benedict Baducing/Bedcing
Brendan / Bendigeid_Bran
Benedictio (Pillar of Eliseg)?

Similar dates
Benedict shines in the world 482 in the ASC
Badon 482 (McCarthy & OCroinin)
Badon 485 (Snyder, Wood)
Brendan 484 (Brewer's)
Cayburn battle 488 is similar to Badon & Caliburn?

Badon has not yet been shown/known to be found in the ASC
Benedict shines is one possible match in the ASC.

Possible similar event description
Benedict "shines in the world" (or Benedict "ascended")
might be similar to Badon as a great victory battle of Arthur's.
(Also note Mt St Michel given to Benedictine monks. "St Michael appeared in Gargano 493" also simlar to "Badon 493".)

Benedict monasteries connection
Beneventian monastery in Saints Lives that mention Arthur.
The 12 Monasteries list maybe matches 12 battles of Arthur.
Arthur founded monasteries in some source(s).
Brendan oversaw 3000 monks of houses he founded.
Pol Aurelian established monasteries in Finistere. (He may be linked with Ambrosius &/or Arthur.)

Benedict shines 482 in ASC might be connected with the 45 yrs + 32 yrs of 560 entry of ASC. The 45 yrs of the ASC 560 entry might be connected with Gildas' 44 yrs.
Benedict shines 482 is also 40 years before death of Brigit and birth of Columba in the HB & AC.

Benedict's death in 536 (Matt. of W.)
Arthur's death in 537 (AC)

Benedict's death in 509 (ASC)
Natanleod's (Pendragon) death in 508 (ASC)

NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 937
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2018 at 18:22

Sorry it seems like i was wrong yet again as it now looks like i was wrong about Badon and Beandune. However let me make it clear that although i have made a few wrong theories on the correct date match for Badon, there are plent of things i am certainly not wrong about (though eveyrone has refused to acknowledge any of them). I am pretty certain that the 9 battle sites location discovery thesis is not wrong, and it looks like i was not wrong about Gildas matching Columba 560, and i also had proposed a number of Badon dates candidates including the new now-more-favoured-by-me ones below. I acknowledge that "Sidney" and "Caleb" info/ideas on the 150 years and Badon being ca 147 influenced me. Do they and anyone/everyone else ever acknoweldge any (major) right discoveries/theories/theses of mine? Let this be proof to people who have claimed that i "ignore" people etc. I don't. I always try to seek the truth.

It looks like Badon (and/or Guinnion) [Portchester (and/or Dover)] is most likely to be one of these 2 or 4 ASC candidates, and/or one of these 3 AC candidates, and/or this 1 HB candidate and 1 Y Gododin candidate:

(Bebbanburh 547,) Wibbandune 568, (Bath 577,) Woddesbeorg 591/592.

Victory synod 569, Arthuret 573/577, Man 584 (Mona 565?)

Metcaut/Medcaut/Farne 575.

Cattraeth 570/598/600/638.

Bebbanburh 547 wasn't a battle. And Bath 577 seems to be only Saxon victory. So that leaves only 2 ASC candidates (excluding the previously favoured but now discarded Beandune and Benedict ones).
Below i mainly only wrote about the 2 ASC candidates (and the 3 AC ones), I have not written about the Metcaut one and Cattraeth one (and haven't done all of the AC ones).

Wibbandune 568 and Badon (Guinnion) [Dover] possible matches:

(Badon of the AC is similar to and may be same as Guinnion of the HB.)

Badon: name Badon/Badonbyrig/Badda's/Baddesdown (& dunon Guinnion & din Eidyn) [Dover].
Wibbandune: name Wibbandune/Wubbandune/Wimbledon.
(Is not long after Ida / DinGuyaroi / Deira / Bebbanburh 547 ASC.)
(Wibbandune 568 is close to Arthuret/Gwendolau 573 and the name Gwendolau is similar to Guinnon and Dover, and Guitolinus of the HB? and Quintilianus of the HRB? Arthuret comes just before Brendan 574 in the AC.)

Badon: was at the end of Gildas 150 yrs prophecy (ending in 547 or 597)?
Wibbandune 568: is not long before the 150th year 597 in Bede. Is not long after 547 in the ASC. (Gildas died in 570 in the AC.)

Badon: Osla. (Arthur's knights Lancelot & Gawain near Dover/Rutupi.)
Wibbandune: Oslake/Oslaf is similar to Osla, or Lancelot of the Lake, or the "Hot Lake" of the Wonders? (Cnebba similar to Gawain who died at Dover or Rutupi?)

Badon: Badon 1 = Guinnion = Dover/Braddon (North Downs).
Wibbandune: was in "Kent". The -dune may match (North) Downs?

Badon: 44 yrs of Gildas. Gildas voyage in 565. "In our times". (Arthur killed Gildas' brother. A generation or 70 years peace after Badon.)
Wibbandune: 568 is close to 560/562/565 when Columba was 45 years old (ASC). Some sources say 571/577 was the end of the decades of peace after Badon.

Badon: section 50/56 of the HB.
Wibbandune: 568 is 50 yrs after 516/518 of the AC. Ethelbert reigned 53 yrs from 560.

Badon: Badon matches Guinnion which seeming may match Arthuret/Gwendolau which was a civil war between Britons/Welsh/Celts. (Dream of Rhonabwy also might imply civil war?)
Wibbandune: Ethelwerd says "stirred up civil war".

Badon: "down to time of Ida". Iddawg in Dream of Rhonabwy.
Wibbandune 568: Not long after Ida 547-560 and Bebbanburh 547.

Badon : against Colgrin.
Wibbandune: against Cealwin. [Cutha similar to Octa/Osla?]

Badon: British victory. Arthur said to have driven the Saxons out of Britian.
Wibbandune 568 is close to synod of Victory 569 in the AC.

Badon: fought by Arthur (HB, AC, HRB) or by Aureli(an)us (DEB).
Wibbandune: Ethelbert has similarities with Arthur.
Wibbandune 568 is close to Arthuret 573 and might be same battle. Is also close to Metcaut fought by Urien(s) 575. Urien(s) died c 567 according to one source/scholar.

Badon is Guinnion (Dover) which battle & site is close to Celidon (Aylesford, Weald) or Bassas (Reculver), and close to the city of the legion (Richborough) or Tribruit (Lympne). Guinnion is in Celidonian wood in Irish source.
Wibbandune 568 is close to Arthuret 573 which is close to (sons of) Elifer and Gwendolau and Caledonian wood. (In Arthurian Elifer/Ely/Eliseg/Helig/Beli/Electi/Elmet seems to match Camelot and/or city of the legion which is Richborough. The Caledonian wood of Caesar's invasion must be in or near to the Weald.)
Fethanleage 584 might be Celidon since leag(a)/ley can mean "wood", and since "Cutha died there" might possibly be connected with Kit's Coty? Bensington and Liganburh 571 might be city of the legion and Bassas?

Badon: Arthur 15 years old. Arthur died at Camlan 22 yrs later
Wibbandune: Ethelbert would be ca 16 years old (552-568). Ethelbert came to throne ca 7/8 yrs old in 560. (Ethelbert 53 minus 32 yrs = 21 yrs in the 560 entry of the ASC?) 568-591 = 22 yrs.

Badon: matches Guinnion which is Dover where is St Martin le Grand.
Wibbandune 568: is close to Arthuret 573 in which battle Merlin/Myrddin went mad. (Some have linked with Mars and Martin, eg see Mintz's paper.)

Badon: Bishop Dubricius was at Badon/Bath in the HRB. The HRB also mentions "Thanet".
Wibbandune 568: is close to battle of isle of Metcaut 575 where "the holy bishop Cuthbert" was.

Badon number slain 470 (10 more than earlier 460) suggested to be date. Badon/Guinnion/Eidyn might also match the battle of Cattraeth "570" of the Y Gododin? Badon is 554 in Book of Hergest.
Wibbandune: date 568 is close to Cattraeth c 570. 568 is exactly 50 years after 516/518 of the AC. Badon 2 in 665 is almost exactly 100 years after 568.

-------

Woddesbeorg 591 and Badon [Portchester] possible matches:

Badon: name Badon/Baddesdown/Bannesdown
Woddesbeorh: name Woddesbeorg/Wodnesbyrg/Wodens-burg/Wemborow.

Badon: 900 men slain. (Great slaughter.)
Woddesbeorg: great slaughter of Britons (ASC) or on both sides (Ethelwerd).

Badon: British victory. Arthur said to have driven the Saxons outof Britian. (Badon 1 was Guinnion at Dover, Badon 2 was Badon at Portchester.)
Woddesbeorg: "West Saxons defeated". Ceawlin "took flight" and/or "was driven from his kingdom" (Wessex?)! (It is not known for sure where Woddesbeorg was/is, though it was fought by West Saxon king.).

Badon: Was at/near the end of Gildas 150 yrs prophecy (ending in 547 or 597)?
Woddesbeorg: Is just before the 150th year 597 in Bede, and/or was not long after 547. Augustine prophecy fulfilled in 607.
Columba dies in 595 in the AC, and Columba's 45 years in the ASC are the only seeming match for Gildas 44 years.

Badon : fought against Colgrin.
Woddesbeorg: fought against Cealwin (& Ceolric?)

Badon: led by "Arthur" or Aureli(an)us.
Woddesbeorg 591: "Ethelbert reigned in England" in 594 in the AC. (Ethelbert has interesting similarities with Arthur.) Some sources have Urien(s) dying in/after 596. (Urien(s) name similar to Aureli(an)us.)

Badon: date c "493".
Woddesbeorg: date 591/592.

NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2018 at 12:11
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

 I had at some times thought that Caesar's invasion date and Christ's were possibly resaon for 20/30/40 yrs difference, but i couldn't prove it and forgot.

Caesar's invasion (54 BC) is dated by Nennius as 47 years before Christ.
Claudius' invasion (43 AD) is dated by Nennius as 47 years after Christ.

Repetition and symmetry seem to have been used as a memory aid, which might well cause a bit of leeway between the stated dates and the actual dates. It was also common practice to bring together various dates from different sources that were using different chronologies (the BC/AD sequence not being commonly used until the 7/8th Century), which would cause some misunderstandings and discrepancies.

Perhaps the original sequence was; "Caesar invaded Briton 47 years before the birth of Christ. The Saxons came 447 years after." Originally it meant 447 years after Caesar, but it got read as 447 years after Christ. 


Edited by .Sidney - 31-Jan-2018 at 12:25
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.047 seconds.