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could Shishak match Tutankhamun?

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Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: could Shishak match Tutankhamun?
    Posted: 10-May-2017 at 14:13
We are just wondering if the biblical King Shishak/Susakim of Kings & Chronicles might be King Tutankhamun (18th dyn)?

(If you don't know anything/enough about the biblical king Shishak/Susakim then introductory info about Shishak/Susakim can be seen here :
1 Kings 11:40, 14:25; 2 Chronicles 12:9.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shishak ;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shishak_I .)

Conventional Egyptologists hitherto claimed that Shishak/Susakim corresponds with Sheshonk/Shash((an)q)/Shoshenq/Sosenq/Ssnq (22nd dyn). (Note that some sources have compared Sosenq with (In-)Susinak/Shushinak of Elam.)

Conventional/Orthodox chronology:
5th dyn -- Sahure in Syria-Palestine
6th -- Ebla -- Akkadian
11th/12 -- patriarchs -- 1900s
15th/16th -- Joseph -- 1700s
400 yrs Hyksos to 19th -- 430 yrs Joe to Moses
19th -- Ramses/Moses -- 1200s
19th -- Israel
19th/20th -- Philistines
21st -- David -- 1000s
22nd -- Shishak -- 900s
25th -- Assyrian/Tirhaka
26th dyn -- Necho/Hophra -- 600s/500s

However, many of us biblical scholars are quite positive that the old orthodox chronology ascribed dates are wrong. When we compare the whole Egyptian timeline and whole Biblical timeline side by side we see that the Egyptian is too long/old and/or the Biblical is too short/late. In corrseponding the orthodox ascribed Egyptian dates & Biblical dates anyone finds that there are only weak seeming/supposed matches and/or no matches between the supposedly contemporary Egyptian and Biblical periods (eg "no trace of Joseph/Moses found in Egyptian [in their supposedly-matching-date dynasty]", "not much found in Jericho [at their supposedly-right-date strata]"). It is pointed out by some that Shoshenq's campaign list doesn't match Shishak's. Other scholars have been objectively discovering far more strong(er) matches of biblical with other dynasties.

It was said that in years before recent decades Egyptian chronology was the main basis of all ancient near/middle eastern chronology, and that the main basis of Egyptian chronology was the 2 historical sothaic/siriadic dates for the 12th dynasty and 18th dynasty. A number of scholarly sources say that the sothaic dating is not relibale, though mainstream Egyptology still basically retains the same old ascribed dates.

To show how unreliable orthodox (and/or alternative) Egyptian (and/or Biblical) chronology has been and can be consider:

The ancient Egyptian beginning date ranges from 36525 yrs bc, to 11542 yrs bc, to 3000 bc, and/or Menes (1st dyn) date has ranged from 11340 yrs bc (Herodotus) to 5867 bc (Champollion) to 3400 (Breasted) to 2300 bc (Josephus/Bristowe) to 2254-2192/2224 bc (Palmer/Hoeh) to 946 bc (Newton)!
Some decades ago they said "recently the date has been pushed back again" and Menes was dated at 3400 bc (Breatsed), and then a few years/decades later they suddenly revised it to 3100 bc, and since then it has now been revised to 3000 bc (Shaw/Wiki). Orthodox sources say that Old Kingdom dates may still be a few hundred years out, and that the general trend has been to revise dates down. Some older sources said Menes was now considered to date to 2900 bc according to "newest research".

Zoser's/Djoser's (3rd dyn) date has ranged from 4900s/4700s bc to 3712/3700 bc to 2900s to c2600s bc.

Khufu/Cheops (4th dyn) reign length ranges from
63 yrs Manetho, to
50 yrs Herodotus, to
"46 yrs" one modern orthodox theory (of cattle-count?) to
34 yrs Great Pyramid inscription (biennial cattle-count) to
26/27 yrs Dakhla inscription (bienniel cattle-count) to
23 yrs Turin King List, to
17 yrs Great Pyramid inscription (taken verbatim) [matching Jacob in Genesis], to
14 yrs Dakhla inscription (taken verbatim).

SIP/Hyksos period length has ranged from 1660 yrs to 400 yrs to 200 yrs to 108/103 yrs (refs SS VanDine, I Velikovsky, etc).

The biblical creation date has ranged from 46,026 bce (NWT), to 20000 bc (bunsen), 12500 bc (crawford), 11013 bc (camping), to 10000 yrs bp/bc (creationists), nearly 7000 yrs / 6984/6484 [bc] (alphonsus), to 5411/5503 bc (Hales/Septuagint/Alexandrian) to 4004 bc (Ussher) to 3761 bc (Jewish).
Abram's/Abraham's date ranges from 2300 bc (Moslem/Arab) to 2000s bc (Thiele?) to 1900s bc (Oxford/orthodox/conventional).
Moses date has ranged from 1690/1662/1652 bc (Mercatante) to 1512 bc (NWT) to 1580/1572 bc - 1491/1440 bc - 1335/1314/1300 bc (Brugsch/Mahler) to 1280/1276/1215 bc (Price/conventional)!
The conventional "1276 bc" date (of "Moses" and of "19th dynasty") contradicts the biblical date of 480 yrs before Solomon (1000s/900s bc).

Tacitus said there had only been 4 phoenix appearances in Egyptian history. The length of phoenix life has ranged from 1700 yrs (various opinoins) to 1500 (Lepsius) to 1460 yrs (Poole) to 660 yrs to 500 yrs (Tacitus) to 400 yrs to 250 yrs (various opinions).

Radiometric dating like carbon dating is unreliable: Sekhemhet (3rd dyn) has carbon date 600 yrs older than his conventional Egyptological date [which itself is c 600 yrs older than his true date since he is apparently comteporary with time of Joseph].

Orthodox chronology claims that the 12th dynasty dates to 1800s bc.
Herodotus said Moeris (12th dyn) was only 900 yrs before [Amasis 2].
The Atlantis Account possibly also implies that Saites/Salitis (14th or 15th or 16th dyn) was 800(0) yrs before Amasis 2 (26th dyn)?

Herodotus also seemingly maybe implies that Hercules was 900 yrs before [Amasis 2]. The 3 gods/groups of Pan, Hercules & Dionysos seemingly may roughly match the 3 Kingdoms of Egypotology (Old, Mid, New)? Hercules might match Heracleopolis (9th/10th dyn) or Sesostris (12th dyn) and/or Shu (2nd Hermes, & who may roughly match Middle Kingdom)?

Moses (who was 480 yrs before Shishak) now pretty certainly seems to only-best match with the 2nd half of the 12th dynasty.
Herodotus confirms that the chariots/horses were lost in the reign of Sesostris (12th and/or 18th/19th dyn)

Shishak must be sometime between 12th dynasty (the time of Moses) and the 22nd dynasty (the time of the orthodox "Shishak", which is too late), and it seems most likely that he matches someone in either the 18th or 19th or 20th dynasty.
The 3 Hermes of Egyptian seemingly may roughly corrsepond to the 3 Kingdoms (Old, Mid, New) of Egyptology. One source shows an interesting parallel between the 3 Hermes (Set, Shu, Thoth) of Egyptian and the 3 reincarnations (Seth [Shem], Moses, Samuel) of Jewish. This tentatively seems to support our Joseph in 3rd-4th dyn, and Moses in 12th dyn, and Shishak in 18th dyn.
Sh(o)u is also in the el-Arish inscription which account has been compared with that of Exodus [which was at end of the 12th dyn].

The San tablet of 400 years gives 400 yrs from Hyksos king to 19th dyn king, which roughly matches 480 years from Moses to Solomon in the Bible.

Shishak seems to be about the time of Seti (19th dyn) : Josephus said Shishak (900s bc) was 1300 yrs after Menes, giving a date of not more than 2300s bc for Menes (1st dyn); Herodotus said Seti (19th dyn) was (1)1300 yrs after Menes.
(Josephus has Pharaohs until Solomon; Newton has Gods until Merneptah.)
Shishak came with 'Lubim', while the name Libyan is first known from the 19th dynasty (Merneptah) [though Lubim could possibly be Nubian (known n/l interchange)?]

Velikovsky and Courville and Hoeh thought Shishak to match (Tuthmosis 1 and/or) Tuthmosis 3 (18th dyn).

[Newton &] Rohl thought that Shishak matches Ramses 2 (sw-heka) of the 19th dyn who was also called or nicknamed Ses(y)/Sesostris.
In the 8th year of Ramses 2 the city Shalama is mentioned at the head of his campaign list. (Shishak came against Jeru-salem in the 5th year of Rehoboam.)
A contemporary of Ramses 2 was Ahiram whose name is similar to the biblical Hiram contemporary of Solomon elder contemporary of Shishak.
Ramses 2's daughter Bint-Anat could possibly be princess Ano of Jewish?
Peter James alternatively thought Shishak may match Ramses 3 (Ra-meses-haq_annu) of the 20th dynasty [who is called Shyshu?]

Our new tentative thought is that Shishak could possibly match Tutankhamen (18th dyn)?

Tut-ankh-amen/Twt-ankh-imn (heqa-iunu-shema) "living image of Amen" [= Ra-thotis/Ra-thos?]
~
S(o)usakim (Septuagint) = Svsq/Susac/Sosaq / Sysq/Sisaq/Shishaq/Shishak (Hebrew) = Sesac (Newton) supposedly meaning "illustrious"
~
Swsk (Ugaritic)?
~
Sis(s)ak (Armenian)? [Though this last one may possibly rather be from Sesostris (Egyptian/Colchis/Herodotus/Newton)?]

(Perhaps compare Seraph/Teraphim, Tekel/Shekel, talit/shalisha "three/third", etc?)

Both persons are called a "King" [not "Pharaoh"]?

Shishak reigned x yrs + 5 yrs + x yrs.
Tut reigned ca 9/10 yrs.

Shishak came with Lubims/"Libyans", Sukkiim, & Kushites/Ethiopians in campaign against Jerusalem/Judah/Rehoboam. Cavalry/horsemen/chariots.
Tut campaigned against Nubians/Libyans & Syrians/Asiatics. Chariot (racing)?

(Interestingly both "Shishak/Susakim" candidates Tutankhamen and Shoshenq are connected with Karnak.)

There are a number of similarities between the Amarna period and the time of David and Solomon.
Psalm 104 & Aten hymn.
The Queen of Sheba has been corresponded by some with Hatshepsut (ref Velikovsky) or Nefertiti (ref ...).
(Bath-Sheba &/or the Queen of Sheba has similar name to Hatshepsut, Adbiheba, or Taduhepa or Giluhepa.)

Some sources have comparisons between Tut's tomb treasures and the Temple treasures.
gold(en) of Tut's tomb ~ Gold(en) (shields/Temple) of bible.
Tut's ark/chest & Ark of the Covenant.
Shishak "illustrious" ~ K Tut "splendour/wonderful/remarkable" treasures?

We also very tentatively wonder if there is possibly a connection of the biblical Hadad/Adad and/or Genubath (supposedly meaning "theft") (in same Bible book chapter as Shishak) with Akhenaten/Ikhnaton/Khu-n-aten "he who serves the Aten" or "he in who Aten is satisfied" and/or Ankh-em-maat "living in truth" (compare Osman's/Freud's theory).
The name of the Princess Tahpenes (compare Tahapanes/Tahpanhes/Daphn(a)e?) (which Velikovsky compared to Tanethap/Tenthape of Ahmose 1) is possibly similar to Taduchepa, or Tiy/Thi, or Neferi(t)-thi/Nefertiti?
Genubath (which Velikovsky compared with Genubatye of records of Tuthmosis 3) is similar to either/both Giluhepa, and/or Khunaten/Ikhnaton/Akhenaten and/or Ankhemmaat.

[King] Zera(c)h/Terah (supposedly meaning "dawn/eastern/sunrise/rising" or "station/laggard/delay" or "mountain goat" or "moon") "the Cushite/Ethiopian/Kassite" (of Biblical & Ethiopian &Ugaritic), who came shortly after Shishak/Susakim, could be either Horemhab (Djeser-kheperu-re/Ser-kheperu-ra), or Ramses 2 (Usermaatre/Ozymandias Setepenre/Sestura/Sesostris)*, or Merneptah (Merynetjeru / Hetephermaat), or Setnakht (User-khau-ra-meri-amen), or Ramses 1 (Men-pehtet-ra) or Rameses 4 (User-ra-sotep-en_amen)? He certainly can't be the conventional candidate Osorkon.
* Is the Ma.re'shah of Chronicles the same as the Shalama of Ramses 2?
Menelik of Ethiopian is possibly similar to Memnon/Miamun (18th/19th dyn), Menophres (supposedly 19th dyn), Merneptah (19th dyn)? (Though Menelik is also/alternatively similar to Menes and/or Maneros of 1st dyn, or Manasseh of Judah, or Menelaus of Maccabees?)

Candidates (for Bath-Sheba, and/or) for the Queen (of) the South/Sheba (meaning "seven(th) or "oath/swear" or "man" or "plenty" in Hebrew) (who the bible says came from ends of the earth, and whom extra-biblical traditions give the names Makeda, Bilqis, Tamrin, Nicaule/Nitocris) include:
Thebes; Hatshepsut/Makera; Tadu-hepa; Gilu-hepa; Nefertiti; Abdi-heba; Ankhkheperure Smenkhkare/Sakere(s)/Saanekht ("identity and even gender is uncertain ... some speculate may have been Nefertiti/Neferi-thi or Merit-aten ... may be identical with Neferneferuaten"); the occupant of tomb KV55; Ankh-esenpa-aten/Ankhnes(pa)aten/Ankhnesamen/Ankhesenpaamun; Te-wosret.
The most likely match for Solomon &/or the queen (of) Sheba is perhaps a queen (of) Smenkhkare &/or KV55? (Perhaps compare our article on Semiramis & Hammurabi?)

In conclusion we have given evidences for and against 7 possible "Shishak/Susakim" candidates which have been proposed by various scholars including us :- Tuthmosis 1, Tuthmosis 3, Tutankhamen, Seti, Ramses 2 "Sesostris", Ramses 3, Sheshonk.

Our new tentative Egyptian-Biblical chronology:
1st dyn -- Abe
3rd/4th -- Jose/Jacob -- c 1800s
12th -- Moses -- c 1400s
400 yrs -- 480 yrs
18th -- Tahtimodshi?
18th -- David -- 1000s?
[18th -- Sheba?]
18th/19th -- Shishak -- 1000s/900s?
18/19/20th -- Zerah?
26th dyn -- Necho/Hophra -- 600s.

Related threads/topics/posts/articles:
http://historum.com/religion/123465-biblical-historical-truth-vindications.html
http://2rbetterthan1.wordpress.com/new-egyptian-chronology-paper/
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13199
http://redseaexodus.wordpress.com/2011/11/06/placing-joseph-in-the-3rd-dynasty-and-moses-in-the-12th-dynasties-not-only-fits-very-well-with-the-archaeological-evidence-it-fits-very-well-with-the-biblical-account-and-shows-how-majestic-god-is/
http://grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?1,1092259


Edited by Arthur-Robin - 12-May-2017 at 03:24
I cant prove 2u that fluoridated water is harmful, but they have no right bcos they could be wrong or lying, & its not necessary, & is sin (sugar, uncleanliness, tooth decay, force/slavery).
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2017 at 22:38
How about Tut's brother, Tutmose, matching Moses? There is more than a passing similarity.



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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2017 at 03:43
His name is very similar to Shilhak-In-Shushinak, the Elamite king who conquered Babylonian empire.
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2017 at 12:38
There names are cause and effect sentence which implicates a lot of guessing.UnhappyTut changed name with suffix "...Aton" like his father Akhenaton in name with suffix "...amo-on" after death of his father.it looks like battle of Maternal cult and cult of Ram!?!
God& Devil!?!Old conflict indeed.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2017 at 15:22

Sorry for delay, i been online alot less the last couple of weeks.

> How about Tut's brother, Tutmose, matching Moses?
> There is more than a passing similarity.

The idea has recently been mentioned by Riaan B. in Hancock forum topic.
http://www.riaanbooysen.com/moses-puzzle
http://grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?1,129296
However Moses is in the 12th dynasty, not in the 18th dynasty.
https://2rbetterthan1.wordpress.com/2014/11/26/moses-found/

> His name is very similar to Shilhak-In-Shushinak,
> the Elamite king who conquered Babylonian empire.

Scholars have proposed connection of Sheshonk of 22nd dynasty with Elamite Shushinak. Orthodox scholars thought Shishak of bible is Sheshonk of 22nd dyn, but Shishak can't be and doesn't match Sheshonk of 22nd dyn. There is a possible similarity between the names Tut-ankh(-amen) and Shoshenk.

> There names are cause and effect sentence which implicates
> a lot of guessing.UnhappyTut changed name with suffix
> "...Aton" like his father Akhenaton in name with suffix
> "...amo-on" after death of his father.it looks like battle of
> Maternal cult and cult of Ram!?!
> God& Devil!?!Old conflict indeed.

Interestingly i did once see someone in their web article connecting Ra-thotis of Manetho with Akhen-aton (Ra ~ Aton, thotis ~ akhen). Though Ra-thotis might be Tut-ankh-amen?

I cant prove 2u that fluoridated water is harmful, but they have no right bcos they could be wrong or lying, & its not necessary, & is sin (sugar, uncleanliness, tooth decay, force/slavery).
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