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Abortion: is it murder?

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Poll Question: What i,s abortion to your point of view?
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68 [50.37%]
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Leroy View Drop Down
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  Quote Leroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Abortion: is it murder?
    Posted: 05-Apr-2012 at 10:56
Originally posted by Conker

an embryo the size of a saltana cannot feel anything or think anything. it's not like getting it aborted would hurt its feelings. and besides, if a woman decides that she shouldn't have a child due to her financial status or age, its not for anybody to tell her otherwise. women aren't stupid- they are quite capable of making responsible decisions about these sorts of things thank you very much.


From a biological point of view human life begins at conception. What is your biological definition of human life and how does it exclude the human embryo or fetus? Or if it does not exclude those things, how is abortion not murder if murder is the direct and intentional killing of innocent human life?


Edited by Leroy - 05-Apr-2012 at 10:58
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Don Quixote View Drop Down
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2012 at 21:14
Good point about the medical reasons, Nick, I forgot about that.
Pregnancies in women over 40 years old, especially if the father is over 40 too, are endangered with more possibilities for dissability than pregnancies in younger women, so in Bulgaria /I don't know how it is here/ tests are done and if the fetus is found disabled the woman is advised to remove it, but it's still her choice. If the child is endangering the life of the mother is a clear case, abortion have to be done to save the mother.

I hope I'm making myself clear here, I don't object abortions from a pro-life POV, but from POV of female health - women have to be educated in family planning from childhood, this is a question literally of life and death, and only careful planning would help reduce the number of kids that are born undesired, which is just creating miserable human beings, or alternatively, abortion being needed. Forbidding abortions does nothing useful but forces women who don't feel able to raise a kid to go and be butchered by some sham "doctors" and may end up dead or no able to have kids later. What really makes difference is birth control, not forbidding abortions.

Because, OTOH, what good is child to be born if he/she is undesired, or the mother cannot raise it - I see here many neglected kids, that were created out of ignorance and/or have mothers drug-users, or abusive families that hate them, what kind of life is that? Also, some girls here  just get pregnant to get of welfare, and use the welfare money so they live for free, and pay zero attention to their kids, it's far worse to live like that that never to be born. I get so irated whan I see such lack of responsibility - no one should allow themselves to get pregnant and have kids if she is not ready for the at least 20 years heavy responsibility that comes with a child.

Btw, I'm very surpised that in the US in all states marriages between 2nd cousins are allowed, and in some states even between 1st cousins are allowed - this is a very close consanguinity for my own comfort. In Bulgaria one cannot marry a cousin that is less than 7 steps removed - at which point one doesn't even recognize the said relative as a relative. How come here such close blood relatives are allowed to marry? That is not good for the gene pool.

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2012 at 19:08
In most cases abortion is indeed murder. However there are certain exceptions: if the woman was raped, if her life was in danger, or if the child would be born with a severe disability
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  Quote Michael Collins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2012 at 15:01
Yes, it's murder. One does not have the right to prevent a human being developing by killing it : the principle that applies to a child becoming an adult applies to the embryo becoming  a child. 
Is í labhairt a dteanga an moladh is mó is féidir linn a thabhairt dár namhaid.
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2012 at 14:02
Well, I can play the devil's advocate. Taking life is a murder, no matter whoe life it is, Killing a chicken to eat it is a murder, and we are all murderers, there is nothing new to it. Should a mother have the right to kill a baby is her womb? Yes, why not  if she cannot take care of it, it's better to kill it than to create undesired and suffering kid that most probably will fall into the nets of the criminal world. Is is preferable to do an abortion? No, it's far better to plan one's pregnancies, and we have a wide choice of methods to do so. Every woman has probably millions of sex acts in her life, only couple pf which result in a baby, everything else is just for fun, and well protected.

When I say I'm anti-abortions, this doesn't mean that I'll forbid any woman to have one, I'll just tell her not to let it to to that. I know plenty on women who had abortions, one of them cannot have kids anymore, the other lost 2 babies after having an abortion. All my female relatives have abortions, more than one apiece, my grandammothers included, one of them had 5; my mother still feels bad about an abortion she had to have after having me; a;; of those women are atheist, so religious conditioning has nothing to do with how they felt about what they had to do. In my time in Bulgaria abortions were done without anasthetic, which is I'm told extremely painful. In any case it's a traumatic experience for a woman to have.

But, if a woman has to have it, she has the right to do so - it's her body and in the end it doesn't make any difference, because we are all murderers, because we all live. The beef steak I enjoy eating is a result of murder, something has to die for me to live - this is the dialectic of life. To say that women don't have the right to have abortions is a way of establishing someone else's control over the body of the woman in question, and it's wrong; to say that abortion is not a murder is not to see what murder is; so it's the best to have planned pregnancies, and not to let it go so bad that an abortion is needed.

Also, I disagree with any religiously based anti-abortionist ideas - if there was a god who created this world, in which murder and killing is a physical neccessity, what is one more baby killed in mother's womb - he/she would die anyway, in result of a most probably painful and hard life. If there is god who created life and death, being is a mutual dialectic connection, death is expected, not something to be shy about.

My anti-abortion stance is mostly because it's dangerous for the woman who does it, in physical and psycological way; and because it's irresponsible to create kids when one don't want them, and when its avoidable. Otherwise we all will dieDead - earlier of later, what's the difference.


Edited by Don Quixote - 12-Mar-2012 at 14:32
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  Quote okamido Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2012 at 10:51
Originally posted by Thegeneral

Of course it is muder.  Murder is taking away someones right to live.  Is that not what people do with abortions?  They are taking away the right of that child to live.  Sad that anyone would even think of it as not murder.
I know it has been seven years since this post, but I find it highly odd that this position is taken, yet in this poster's signature is a phrase....
 
"In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it."
 
I am not meaning to single out a member who will most likely never be able to defend himself, but I feel that it is an inconsistant message/ philosophy that is akin to the pro-life/ pro-capital punishment faction and am using it only as an example so that another member may chose to play devil's advocat...and explain it to me.
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2012 at 01:54
Yes, it is murder. But life is based on murder, something has to die for another one to live. This said, I'm against abortions because they are dangerous for the health of the mother, who may never be able to have another child if something goes wrong; and unfair for the child. Besides, there are plenty of contraceptive ways around, and it's a sheer negligence if a woman cannot plan her pregnancies; men are not to be trusted, and they are not doing the pregnancy, not the labor, and have at best passing importance in raising the child, most work is done by the mother, so they don't get to choose.

There is plenty of time to think before getting pregnant, and it's totally irresponsible to let it a child be conceived when not wanted, If a woman created a child, she doesn't have the right to take away his/her life. So, think before, or forever carry your responsibility.

However, there are situations like rape, in which if a child is conceived it very cruel to be expected of the woman to let it live and take care of it. Rape is a terrible trauma, many women never recover from it, and if it results in a child, it's better this child to be killed that to make the mother to relive the rape she was subjected to every day for the rest of her life, which would happen if she is made to keep the child; this is particularly true for the gang rapes, in which the woman wouldn't even know who the father was. This is the only case in which I advocate abortion, because it's not a fault of the mother, but it will be a serious obstacle for her recovery; unless the mother decided to keep it, she has to be let to choose to kill it. As I said, life is based on death.


Edited by Don Quixote - 12-Mar-2012 at 01:55
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  Quote Gloval Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 19:08
it's really a big concern for some countries like USA because it's a useful way to divert attention from other political problems. It's pretty sad and i think it hurts the democratic process in a big way since it's a personnal issue and not a political one. I'm sure non americans in this forum are laughing at us about the gay marriage amendment where other countries like australia are allowing gay marriage to be fully recognized under law soon.

As far as abortion is concerned, how can you argue whether it's murder when you can't even prove you're dealing with a sentient being or not? It's something that's way beyond medical technology right now and it's more of a cultural issue as well. A lot of countries don't have a huge problem with it, it's there because it has a use.
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 12:21
I haven't voted. Abortion after a certain month in pregnancy should be indeed considered a murder. But not at the arly stages when the embryo is not yet fully developed.

If one considers the removal of an undeveloped embryo a murder because it could potentially become human life, then one could go at an extreme to say that masturbation is also an act of murder, since sperm cells that would have potentially lead to a new life are being murdered, no?Confused
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 13:07

Originally posted by jfmff

Oh yeah! Good old abortion topic. My first AE topic. Brings me so many memories.

Anyway:

Originally posted by Conker

and besides, if a woman decides that she shouldn't have a child due to her financial status or age, its not for anybody to tell her otherwise. women aren't stupid- they are quite capable of making responsible decisions about these sorts of things thank you very much.


There are stupid people everywhere, men and women... Possibly the reason why she is preagnent is because she and her partner stupidly  weren't wearing condom.

absolutely rite... or else... no pills...

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  Quote jfmff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 06:47
Oh yeah! Good old abortion topic. My first AE topic. Brings me so many memories.

Anyway:

Originally posted by Conker

and besides, if a woman decides that she shouldn't have a child due to her financial status or age, its not for anybody to tell her otherwise. women aren't stupid- they are quite capable of making responsible decisions about these sorts of things thank you very much.


There are stupid people everywhere, men and women... Possibly the reason why she is preagnent is because she and her partner stupidly  weren't wearing condom.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 01:33
an embryo the size of a saltana cannot feel anything or think anything. it's not like getting it aborted would hurt its feelings. and besides, if a woman decides that she shouldn't have a child due to her financial status or age, its not for anybody to tell her otherwise. women aren't stupid- they are quite capable of making responsible decisions about these sorts of things thank you very much.
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  Quote sedamoun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2006 at 08:10

This poll is useless... you can vote as many times as you like... pffff...

Cheers. I am never setting foot in this thread again.

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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 16:41
Like I said before, "It is murder and not a choice" but that is something that they will have to deal with in the after life.
I am not sure banning it will work but at least women should be required to review the options before they make the final decision. Teen age minors should be required to get parental consent and no late term abortions period.
In public school kids cannot even take an aspirin without parental consent so why should they be allowed to get an abortion?(minors) If they are over 18 they are an adult in my country so there is not much that can be done except presenting them the other options to abortion.
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  Quote sedamoun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 11:07

I just stumbled upon this thread that is geting dusty... is it fair to say that "little" majority of AE members - as does Bush - see Abortion as murder ?

I hate to do it, but we should close this thread with the "YES" side as a majority.

Cheers.

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  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2005 at 16:12

Originally posted by Maju

Life and death are difficult matters but they aren't the exclussive matter of any otherworldy entity but in a sense it is our matter: life... and death. Both.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2005 at 15:36
Originally posted by jfmff

I think there is no comon ground for me to discuss the abortion issue anymore. Once the argument to decide when is the limit for abortion (at what time) is the fetus' hability to survive I don't think there can be any more progress. A tetraplegic couldn't survive by himself also and is a financial "burden" for his family, but I don't think that the family can kill him if they want to. Furthermore comparissons of the protohuman with cancer and parasites is just insultuous.


Do you retire when I asked you and the other anti-choice to defend your positions (see above). I find it a little insulting.

Also just to comment that euthanasia is also ethical, at least when the affected person expresses that will. There was recently a case in Spain, where a writer that had been tetraplejic for many years wanted to be administered euthanasia and judges wouldn't allow it. Finally his companion did and she is now in jail for such a compassive action that anyhow only fulfilled the will of the affected person.

Life and death are difficult matters but they aren't the exclussive matter of any otherworldy entity but in a sense it is our matter: life... and death. Both.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2005 at 15:26
Originally posted by O_Condestvel

I think some notions of embriology are needed in this forum. So here it goes:
1) by the 3rd week the embryo is only a three-bladed "organism", which resembles somewhat  a disc
2) by the 8th week it has a body shape (it no longer resembles a disc). Beside this shape, it already has human contours (hands, fingers and all) and more importantly, all the systems are present, although in a primitive shape.

So I guess that by the 12 th week (the deadline for abortion to occur in many countries), it is no longer a bunch of cells. By the contrary, it is quite human like.


That's precisely why it is the deadline: the nervous system starts to appear as does the blood system. Yet, whatever the appearance, it's still a tiny criature that can hardly be called human (except for its genetic charge).

In any case I would be quite happy if abortion was free in the 3 first months of pregnancy. That would prevent virtually all undesired childbirths.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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  Quote jfmff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2005 at 13:31
I think there is no comon ground for me to discuss the abortion issue anymore. Once the argument to decide when is the limit for abortion (at what time) is the fetus' hability to survive I don't think there can be any more progress. A tetraplegic couldn't survive by himself also and is a financial "burden" for his family, but I don't think that the family can kill him if they want to. Furthermore comparissons of the protohuman with cancer and parasites is just insultuous.


Edited by jfmff
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  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2005 at 12:43

Technichaly speaking abortion is murder, but I don't think it should be prohibited.

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