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gcle2003
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Topic: Napoleon Posted: 16-Sep-2005 at 01:42 |
Originally posted by Maju
So, while the British forces had significative weight in transforming the guerrilla in open war and "liberating" the country in the end, the true cost for the Empire was being forced to wage a continuous diffuse war in the peninsula, a war impossible to be won.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 16-Sep-2005 at 01:55 |
Originally posted by Temujin
Originally posted by gcle2003
What I'm asking is how do you distinguish between a military dictatorship. liberal or otherwise, and a monarchy, liberal or otherwise? It can't here be the hereditary principle because (a) the Bonapartists accepted the hereditary principle, which is how come you got Napoleon III*, and (b) lots of recognised monarchies were elective, as in Poland, or the Holy Roman Empire, or partially elective like the Anglo-Saxons. |
as for the elective monarchies, the kings were elected from aristocrats by aristocrats, common people absolutely had no impact on that,
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My point was simply that a monarchy does not have to be hereditary. How a monarch is elected is kind of irrelevant to that point. Obviously majority current thinking is that universal suffrage is best, but where was universal suffrage ever instituted anywhere before the 20th century? (There may be an answer to that. If there is it would be interesting.)
as opposed to parliamentary Monarchies like Napoleonic France. a parliament does represent all classes of society. in case of the hereditary principle there was little difference to other monarchies. however the Napoleonic France one became an aristocrat when he was a high ranking military while in Bourbon France one became a high ranking military simply by beign an aristocrat (and only by birth). this was also a problem in Imperial Germany were all top ranking positions in the army were automatically reserved for the Prussian aristocracy, so every member of the Bourgeoisie who wanted to make career in the military went to the navy.
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The last bit was pretty true of Britain too, mutatis mutandis - given for instance that in Britain you would have to say 'gentry' rather than 'aristocracy'.
The rest of the paragraph however is only due to the fact that Napoleon's 'aristocracy' was a new one, whereas the Bourbon and Prussian ones were old. I have no doubt at all that had Napoleon not been defeated, 'his' aristocracy would have perpetuated itself the same way that the Bourbons and Prussian aristocracies (and just about every other privileged group in history) did.
(In fact many of the new aristocratic families kept their aristocratic trappings, though of the Napoleonic rather than the Bourbon tradition, through the 19th century.)
Pretty well all aristocracies had most of their roots in military success.
Moreover to call Napoleon a 'liberal' is really stretching things. |
I meant liberal in the true meanign of the word.
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Which is?
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Temujin
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Posted: 16-Sep-2005 at 15:08 |
well, liberal as opposed to the current american meaning of the word.
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Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 08:35 |
Originally posted by Maju
It doesn't matter. The fact is that Napoleon had an open front all the time, a front to which he and the Empire had to dedicate many forces. That's exausting in the long run and cannot be mantained. That's the secret of guerrilla war, even if never passes to standard war action: to cost the enemy more than the ocupation is worth.
While Napoleon had to dedicate rather few forces to keep the occupation of Germany or Italy, he was forced to wage a continuous war in Spain, detracting from forces and resources elsewhere. Maybe if Napoleon would have got no other problem but Spain... maybe he could have dedicated all the resources of the Empire to solve the Spanish problem. But it wasn't the case.
So, while the British forces had significative weight in transforming the guerrilla in open war and "liberating" the country in the end, the true cost for the Empire was being forced to wage a continuous diffuse war in the peninsula, a war impossible to be won.
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Actually Napoleon retained around 200,000 troops in Germany at all times. And the Peninsula couldn't have taken up too many resources - 300,000 troops is certainly significant, but when one considers Imperial France (not including its satellite states, just France itself) never had a standing army of more than 1,100,000 compared to Revolutionary France which had a peak strength of closer to 1,500,000 it becomes apparent that the French could have more than doubled forces in Iberia - 400,000 less troops were in the Imperial armies than the earlier Republican armies of the mid-1790s. Plus since then France's frontiers had expanded - large areas in Italy, the Low Countries and Iberia were annexed directly to France rather than being brought under puppet regimes. When population growth is also factored in it would seem Imperial France would have been able to mobilise around 2,000,000 with relative ease had it wished to - it had at least 3,000,000 more citizens than the Republic ever did. And in addition there were tens of millions outside of France from whom still more could have been conscripted into Imperial armies. It is obvious that the Peninsula wasn't then a huge strain - if it was the French could have devoted far more resources than they did and still retain forces in excess of half a million on the eastern front for conflict with Russia and Austria.
Edited by Findlay
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El Cid
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Posted: 20-Oct-2005 at 12:49 |
Napoleon was the greatest conqueror of modern times. For example, In Austerlitz he crushed the army of Austrian Empire and Russia in the called "Battle of three Emperors", and he was supered 6 to 1! And he gave the modern politic system to France, and maybe to the world.
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The spanish are coming!
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Degredado
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Posted: 14-Nov-2005 at 14:50 |
I can't call him a legendary emperor: his reign was way too short. But I can call him an epic conqueror. He won more battles than Alexander the Great! And the way he made his enemies fall into his traps.....
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Vou votar nas putas. Estou farto de votar nos filhos delas
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fastspawn
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Posted: 16-Nov-2005 at 07:21 |
AUsterlitz wasn't 6:1 and it is a myth that 3 emperors fought it. (Francis of HRE wasn't there)
The forces were roughly equal with Napoleon outnumbered by roughly 20 thousand men (70 vs 90)
However the casualty rate for the French was 3 times less than the Russians, which though good wasn't the best victory ever. (See Thermopylae for a roughly 50:1 casualty rate)
What was surprising about Austerlitz was Davout's survival on the Right, and Soult's defeat of the strong Austrian-Russian centre which was on top of the hill. YES THE MAGIC HILL.
If anything the 6:1 figure only points to Soult's brilliant generalship rather than Napoleons ability to command, as Soult was the one in charge of the 17000 men involved in the full charge to the hill.
On the modern polity of France being generated by Napoleon. I believe that is to much credit to Napoleon, he was around when he ordered the change. He didn't exactly formulate it in his mind. A similar example would be crediting King William the Conqueror with the creation of the Domesday book, and hence the notion of the modern census. http://www.allempires.com/He did put some work into it by ordering it done, but we have to take it not as though they were the ones who had to stretch their brains to come up with that idea.
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Posted: 18-Nov-2005 at 15:26 |
Originally posted by Vlad Catrina
I admire Napoleon Bonaparte, but I don`t know what other people think. I consider him a legendary emperor, and a good civilian, too. He founded modern egyptology, a great thing. A man who, around 1800, conquered western Europe (except Britain), Northern Africa, and Northern Italy, is a legend. In Napoleon`s case, a romanced legend.
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*out of the topic. You should join with my best friend! He also thinks of "L'Empereur" as being the greatest!
*completely out of the topic: "Daca ai nevoie de un numar de telefon, da-mi un pm!"
Thank you all who read this for bearing with me!
Edited by Cezar
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Posted: 19-Nov-2005 at 19:29 |
I admire Napoleon because he wasn't only a succesful warrior he also had a admirable thinking capacity and he had big dreams on the earth unlike most of other commanders,is he succeed,no,but he tried !
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Hector Victorious
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Posted: 01-Dec-2005 at 21:20 |
Napoloeon is a genius, Not only did he have the ability to create master plans of battle put he also led his troops Extremly well. Their are many accounts of soilders in their daires who would be stunned as they saw their glorious commander sitting their next to them chatting about the weather with them, or sitting amongst them eating his daily rations which where no better then anyother soilders. I don't think there was 1 sooilder that would not take a Bullet for their Napoleon. Actually he wore deep read alot so if he was shoot is soilder would not notice and try and help but instead keep doing thier duty...
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TheDiplomat
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Posted: 17-May-2006 at 10:32 |
Napoleon won many victories by holding much of his army in reserve till he opened up a carefully choosen weak point in the enemy line.
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Emperor Barbarossa
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Posted: 18-May-2006 at 18:48 |
I think Napoleon is a man to be admired. He was a great man to his country, and was one of the most enlightened dictators during his time.
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 18-May-2006 at 18:52 |
There have been two great men of action in European history - Caesar and Bonaparte.
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 18-May-2006 at 18:56 |
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa
I think Napoleon is a man to be admired. He was a great man to his country, and was one of the most enlightened dictators during his time. |
And the greatest tactical military genius ever. When he was at the height of his ability, it was almost impossible to defeat armies under his command. Other French armies, as in Spain, did not benefit from his presence.
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Emperor Barbarossa
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Posted: 19-May-2006 at 22:21 |
Yes, pikeshot, he has to be considered the greatest military genius ever. He held almost all of Europe's armies at bay for about 15 years. This has never been surpassed.
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Ponce de Leon
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Posted: 19-May-2006 at 22:58 |
Yes Napoleon was a superb commander, general, but just like all the people of the purple, wanted power. Like everyone before him those who were greedy for wealth, strength, power would lead you to become great, and bring you to your downfall. Napoleon's death was not glorious either. I consider this man just a tyrant and nothing else. He preached revolution in the beginning, but later became a hypocrite, throwing over himself a crown, a scepter, and the thing he so earlier defeated..the title of monarch
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xi_tujue
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Posted: 20-May-2006 at 05:22 |
i don't hnow how to say this but he was a Hypocrit thats it I said it.
He started as an general who overtrue the King And started and republic for the people. And later he declared his self to emperor I don't get it.
He was short and a Hypocrit
Edited by xi_tujue - 20-May-2006 at 05:23
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Spartakus
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Posted: 20-May-2006 at 08:07 |
Originally posted by pikeshot1600
There have been two great men of action in European history - Caesar and Bonaparte.
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You forgot Alexander.
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 20-May-2006 at 08:19 |
Originally posted by Spartakus
Originally posted by pikeshot1600
There have been two great men of action in European history - Caesar and Bonaparte.
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You forgot Alexander.
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Alexander was certainly a titan. However, I would consider him primarily an historical figure of Asian history......The Levant, Persia, south Asia.
At the time of Alexander and Parmenio, Persia was the "center" and Alexander aspired to Persian greatness, even to the degree of adopting trappings and practices of the Persian "court." (to the disgust of some of his associates)
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 20-May-2006 at 08:30 |
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon
Yes Napoleon was a superb commander, general, but just like all the people of the purple, wanted power. Like everyone before him those who were greedy for wealth, strength, power would lead you to become great, and bring you to your downfall. Napoleon's death was not glorious either. I consider this man just a tyrant and nothing else. He preached revolution in the beginning, but later became a hypocrite, throwing over himself a crown, a scepter, and the thing he so earlier defeated..the title of monarch |
As many great men, Napoleon was an opportunist. The after effects of the Revolution afforded him an opportunity for advancement to influence, and then to power. He would never have had those opportunities under the Ancien Regime.
Once France was secure from the immediate threat of counterrevolutionary forces (Prussia, Austria, etc.), I think Napoleon again saw the opportunity to consolidate both his and France's position among the Powers. A monarchy would be more accepted by them than some revolutionary state (which France still was - the social and economic forces of the Fr Rev could not be rolled back). Voila! An empire with a crowned head married into the Habsburg dynasty.
I don't remember where, but I recall N was supposed to have said something like "The Crown of France is in disrepute. It lays in the gutter, but needs only to picked up with the point of a sword."
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