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ancient global flood

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kermit_criminal View Drop Down
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  Quote kermit_criminal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: ancient global flood
    Posted: 31-May-2005 at 03:12
do you believe in the ancient global flood myth? ever country you go there are legends of ancient floods that wiped out civilizations, towns, villages etc.. From Israel, to India, to Indonesia, to Maya
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2005 at 06:34
Floods are a suprisingly common occurance, and major ones do happen from time to time. That most of the planet should have a tale of some great flood or other isn't that suprising.

As for the one mentioned in the bible, i'm a fan of the Black sea theory myself.
Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2005 at 10:16
Isnt it the flood of Noah (Hz. Nuh)? I believe in that flood, i believe all those ancient scripts all over the world cannot be all same lies about the same flood thing...
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  Quote Feramez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2005 at 12:19
Definetly, most of these stories are very similar if not the same.  How can groups of people from other sides of the planet make up lies like this with no communication between one another at all.
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  Quote Le Renard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2005 at 17:23
Yeah I believe in it. 
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2005 at 02:49
One of the major problems with all these "flood stories" is that they occurred at different times.  If the biblical story came from a Sumero-Babylonian original, there are even problems there.  Archaeologists have found "flood deposits" in various ancient ruins of the ancient cities, but very few correlate in terms of time.  They discern several major flood events taking place from about 4500 BC to about 2900 BC.  The flood deposit at Ur was of a different time than that of the flood deposit at Kish, for instance.  If we look at the biblical flood, it supposedly took place in the 24th century BC.   If we look at the Greek flood story, it took place even later, during the earlier Mycenaean period.  If I remember correctly, the Egyptians, whose history predates the supposed Noachian flood, didn't have a flood story, but did record regular floodings of the Nile. 
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  Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2005 at 11:18


Maya, Teotihuacan , Olmecs, Aztecs made reference to the end of the world because of flooding.
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2005 at 13:59

Most ancient civilizations have recorded devastating floods, or have religious stories about them, for the following reasons:

1. Most ancient civilizations lived near major rivers, or lakes, where flooding was not uncommon. It is very likely that they all had a devastating flood at one point or another.

2. From a religious standpoint, a flood is a very "likely" way that the world could end. It is something that people can easily imagine, as opposed to the Earth vanishing, or something like that. The major alternative - "fire and brimstone" is actually more difficult for the common people to grasp because most Old World civilizations lived nowhere close to major active volcanos. The "world ending" is a common theme in most religions, since it tends to motivate people and affect their behavior.

3. As far as the New World civilizations were concerned, their view of the world was cyclical, whereby every cycle would end with the world being destroyed in a different way and then rebuilt. Flooding corresponds to the end of just one of those cycles: other ways of the world ending include fire, ferocious animals and demons, etc.

I think that it is a bit of a stretch to offer as proof of the biblical flood, these stories, seeing as how they occured in different times, and the people had different interpretations about them.

I agree with Cywr that the biblical flood is best explained by the Black Sea theory.

What is history but a fable agreed upon?
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Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2005 at 18:04
These myths were even found amongst the Navajo
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2005 at 17:52
I think it's related to the end of the Ice Age. When the Ice Age ended Ice caps melted down, causing a rise in sea level, which of course has caused many floods worldwide.
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  Quote kermit_criminal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2005 at 03:47

i posted these pics below in another thread as well,

I believe the reason for the spread of Malay peoples across the Indo-Pacific was due to the ice-age floods that have occured the last couple thousand years, in fact you can see the flooded lands of indo-malay region here below. At the last ice age ended, much of the sunda shelf fell victim to flood and likely cause its inhabitants to fleed on boat or escape to higher ground. This is why you see malay peoples from Easter Island to Madagascar.

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  Quote kermit_criminal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2005 at 03:56

Originally posted by Cywr

Floods are a suprisingly common occurance, and major ones do happen from time to time. That most of the planet should have a tale of some great flood or other isn't that suprising.

As for the one mentioned in the bible, i'm a fan of the Black sea theory myself.

the black sea theory was not isolated to the black sea area, it was a worldwide event at the end of the last ice ages. the sea in the medditerranean could not have risen to flood the black "lake" without also the rest of the world's oceans rise as well, they are all connected afterall.

 

After all, it is a safe bet that more than half of mankind lived in the zone of less than 100 m above sea level. In the context of the present debate on global warming, it is said that a rise in sea level of just one metre would be an immense catastrophe for countries like Bangla Desh or the Netherlands. The Maledives would completely disappear with a rise of only a few metres. But more importantly, most big population centres today are located just above sea level: Tokyo, Shanghai, Kolkata, Mumbai, London, New York, Los Angeles etc. If the sea level would rise 100 m, most population centres including entire countries would become a sunken continent, a very real Atlantis. Consequently, there is nothing far-fetched in assuming the existence of population centres and cultures, 10 or 15 thousand years ago, in what are now submarine locations on the continental shelf outside our coastlines.

http://www.giaodiem.com/doithoai/Eden_ko-kirk.htm

 

 



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  Quote kermit_criminal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2005 at 04:19
Originally posted by Decebal

Most ancient civilizations have recorded devastating floods, or have religious stories about them, for the following reasons:

1. Most ancient civilizations lived near major rivers, or lakes, where flooding was not uncommon. It is very likely that they all had a devastating flood at one point or another.

2. From a religious standpoint, a flood is a very "likely" way that the world could end. It is something that people can easily imagine, as opposed to the Earth vanishing, or something like that. The major alternative - "fire and brimstone" is actually more difficult for the common people to grasp because most Old World civilizations lived nowhere close to major active volcanos. The "world ending" is a common theme in most religions, since it tends to motivate people and affect their behavior.

3. As far as the New World civilizations were concerned, their view of the world was cyclical, whereby every cycle would end with the world being destroyed in a different way and then rebuilt. Flooding corresponds to the end of just one of those cycles: other ways of the world ending include fire, ferocious animals and demons, etc.

I think that it is a bit of a stretch to offer as proof of the biblical flood, these stories, seeing as how they occured in different times, and the people had different interpretations about them.

I agree with Cywr that the biblical flood is best explained by the Black Sea theory.

You are contradicting yourself if you believe in the black sea theory which basically says the atlantic ocean(or all oceans for that matter) rose, causing the medditeranean to flood the black "lake". The black sea flood wasnt an isolated incident, in fact it would be impossible for a flood of such magniture to only effect that area of the world when all open seas and oceans connect

 

THE FLOOD THEORY

"...200 times
the force of
of Niagara Falls"

A LOST SHAKER OF SALTWATER
Fifteen thousand years ago, during the last Ice Age, what we call the Black Sea was actually an enormous freshwater lake. It was about two-thirds its current size, hundreds of feet shallower, and completely cut off from the Mediterranean and the world's oceans.

penWindow('flood_melting.html','viewwinFlood_1', 'toolbar=0,width=542,height=435,resizable=no,scrollbars=no') ">Ryan and Pitman '98, Path of Meltwater

Then the Ice Age ended, global temperatures rose and the polar ice caps began to melt. Meltwater from the northern ice sheet began to pour down over Asia and Europe and, at the same time, the sea level of the Atlantic started to rise. Now, the only thing separating the freshwater "Black Lake" (technically referred to as the "New Euxine Lake") from the saltwater Mediterranean was the tiny Bosphorus valley. Eventually, the saltwater rose over the land and connected the Black Lake to the Mediterranean, creating the narrow, 17-mile long Bosphorus strait we see today in the southwest corner (penWindow('blacksea_map.html','viewwinBlackSea_1', 'toolbar=0,width=810,height=471,resizable=yes,scrollbars=no' )">see map). Voila, the Black Sea was created.

THE FLOOD THEORY

In the mid-1990's, two geologists from Columbia University, Bill Ryan and Walter Pitman, published a bold theory about the saltwater influx into the Black Sea, which they had been working on for over 20 years: it wasn't just an influx, it was a catacylsmic flood. At first, the rising Atlantic brought the Mediterranean all the way up to the edge the Bosphorus Valley, right near the Black Lake, but was held back by a 400 foot tall dam, two miles wide. Then about 7,600 years ago, the dam burst. Saltwater roared into the Black Lake with 200 times the force of Niagara Falls. That means over 10 cubic miles of saltwater (about the volume of Lake Mead, Nevada) rocketing through the Bosphorus valve every day, spurting flumes as fast as 50 mph.

The theory is dramatic, but there is some intriguing evidence to back it up. In fact, there was enough geological evidence to lead a Bulgarian oceanographer, penWindow('flood_petko.html','viewwinFlood_2', 'toolbar=0,width=315,height=425,resizable=no,scrollbars=no') ">Petko Dimitrov, to develop his own flood theory completely independent of Ryan and Pitman.

You have a point. About four million years ago, a similar event happened in the Mediterranean, only a desert back then, when the Atlantic flooded through Gibraltar. And it's true, if the Black Sea flood happened four million years ago, this would indeed remain an obscure event known only to geologists, kinking their rock hammers.

But it turns out that this Flood Theory has compelling human relevance. It just so happens that modern man migrated out of Africa 100,000 years ago and began to settle Mesopotamia about 15,000 years ago. Almost certainly there were many cultures living around the Black Sea 7,600 years ago. So we're not just talking about an enormous, anonymous geologic event: we're talking about one of the most enormous natural disasters in human history. Many people would've been witness and, sadly, victim to such a catastrophe.
.

http://chadparmet.home.comcast.net/BlackSea/overview/flood.h tml

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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2005 at 11:10

I don't think you understand, kermit_criminal, when you say that there is a contradiction somewhere when one says that the biblical flood can best be explained by the Black Sea theory. The key word here is "biblical". The biblical flood had to be a dramatic phenomenon that occured somewhere close to Mesopotamia and Palestine. A flood that occured too far from that location would not be present in the mythis and legends of the area.

Also, flooding at the end of the ice age was a relatively slow process in most areas of the world, at least in human terms. It would take many years for large areas to get flooded, enabling human communities to move out and survive. By contrast, the flooding of the Black Sea was a very rapid, dramatic event, that would quickly engulf many communities and would give the survivors the impression of divine retribution.

If look at the geography and geology of the area, you'd see that such an event was entirely possible, without anything comparable occuring anywhere else in the world.

What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2005 at 21:24
the black sea theory was not isolated to the black sea area, it was a worldwide event at the end of the last ice ages.


Yes it was, thats why its called the 'Black sea deluge'.
Black sea deluge was a sudden event, it may have been linked to gradual rise in sea levels after the ice age, but the actual deluge was a one off local event, thought to have occured around 5500 BC.
Glacial melt water had made the black sea into a large freshwater lake, but a sudden deluge of salty sea water completly altered this, so that now the heavyier salt water fills the bottom of the sea, with the only mixing of fresh and salt water in the top 200 metres or so of the sea, so there is no significant gas exchange betweem the layers making it the largest body of oxygen-free water on the planet.
Note that this sudden deluge only happened in the Black Sea, hence Black Sea Deluge.
Its still contested territory, but for a probably explanation for a biblical flood, it is much moer likely that the gradual over thousands of years rise in sea levels after the iceage.
Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote YusakuJon3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2005 at 21:58
Why not this scenario?  Modern humans had been around in prehistoric times long enough to have at least known some of what Earth was like before the ice caps melted and the oceans rose.  There is a possibility that the Bering Sea didn't exactly come into being until as recently as 12,000 years ago, giving plenty of time for ancestors of the modern native Americans to wander across.  I could imagine that over the passage of several decades or centuries, these nomads would've noticed that the land over which they were passing was gruadually becoming surrounded by the sea and then submerged.  Given the way that legends may have been derived from oral histories, perhaps the rate of the sea levels rising was exaggerated to give the impression of a catastrophic global flood.
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  Quote kermit_criminal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 06:12

Originally posted by Cywr

the black sea theory was not isolated to the black sea area, it was a worldwide event at the end of the last ice ages.


Yes it was, thats why its called the 'Black sea deluge'.
Black sea deluge was a sudden event, it may have been linked to gradual rise in sea levels after the ice age, but the actual deluge was a one off local event, thought to have occured around 5500 BC.
Glacial melt water had made the black sea into a large freshwater lake, but a sudden deluge of salty sea water completly altered this, so that now the heavyier salt water fills the bottom of the sea, with the only mixing of fresh and salt water in the top 200 metres or so of the sea, so there is no significant gas exchange betweem the layers making it the largest body of oxygen-free water on the planet.
Note that this sudden deluge only happened in the Black Sea, hence Black Sea Deluge.
Its still contested territory, but for a probably explanation for a biblical flood, it is much moer likely that the gradual over thousands of years rise in sea levels after the iceage.

for a flood of that magnitude, for the sea to spill over to fresh water lake without global sea levels rising is hard for me to conceive. The black sea flood may have been a local event, but the rising of the sea to cause the sudden black sea deluge would have been a global event. how does the medditerranean sea flood the black "lake" in the first place? i dont think i got that part of the theory if the idea of rising sea levels is a totally unrelated



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  Quote kermit_criminal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 06:18
Originally posted by Decebal

I don't think you understand, kermit_criminal, when you say that there is a contradiction somewhere when one says that the biblical flood can best be explained by the Black Sea theory. The key word here is "biblical". The biblical flood had to be a dramatic phenomenon that occured somewhere close to Mesopotamia and Palestine. A flood that occured too far from that location would not be present in the mythis and legends of the area.

when water in the mediterranean rises(to flood the black sea), it also effects the rest of the world sea levels.  lets say tomorrow the black sea spilled over to the caspian and flooded parts of southern russia... how exactly would that be possible without world sea levels also having risen to cause this in the first place?

there are myths around the world of a great flood, not just in the bible. using the term "global flood myth" dosent exclusively refer to the bible, it is a collection of myths from cultures across the globe

Also, flooding at the end of the ice age was a relatively slow process in most areas of the world, at least in human terms. It would take many years for large areas to get flooded, enabling human communities to move out and survive. By contrast, the flooding of the Black Sea was a very rapid, dramatic event, that would quickly engulf many communities and would give the survivors the impression of divine retribution.

If look at the geography and geology of the area, you'd see that such an event was entirely possible, without anything comparable occuring anywhere else in the world.

again the events that would have led to the flooding of the black sea IE global sea levels rising is a global event. where do you think all the water that came roaring into the black sea came from? zeus?



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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 06:44
for a flood of that magnitude, for the sea to spill over to fresh water lake without global sea levels rising is hard for me to conceive. The black sea flood may have been a local event, but the rising of the sea to cause the sudden black sea deluge would have been a global event. how does the medditerranean sea flood the black "lake" in the first place? i dont think i got that part of the theory if the idea of rising sea levels is a totally different idea


Do you actualy read people's posts?

Originally posted by cywr

Black sea deluge was a sudden event, it may have been linked to gradual rise in sea levels after the ice age, but the actual deluge was a one off local event, thought to have occured around 5500 BC.


Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote kermit_criminal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 07:15

Originally posted by Cywr

for a flood of that magnitude, for the sea to spill over to fresh water lake without global sea levels rising is hard for me to conceive. The black sea flood may have been a local event, but the rising of the sea to cause the sudden black sea deluge would have been a global event. how does the medditerranean sea flood the black "lake" in the first place? i dont think i got that part of the theory if the idea of rising sea levels is a totally different idea


Do you actualy read people's posts?

Originally posted by cywr

Black sea deluge was a sudden event, it may have been linked to gradual rise in sea levels after the ice age, but the actual deluge was a one off local event, thought to have occured around 5500 BC.


did you read what you replied to?

the black sea theory was not isolated to the black sea area, it was a worldwide event at the end of the last ice ages.

 The events that led to the black sea flood were global, not local. The black sea was but a small piece of the puzzle. you cannot possibly believe in a black sea deluge and at the same time brush aside local floods across the globe as common occurances

Floods are a suprisingly common occurance, and major ones do happen from time to time. That most of the planet should have a tale of some great flood or other isn't that suprising.

This implies no connection between black sea flood and other floods across the planet but at the time the black mediterranean was rising to flood the black sea, Sunda was sinking, not a common occurance i assure you



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