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Who were the Dong Yi?

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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who were the Dong Yi?
    Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 14:07

Here, I made my promise and it is my pleasure to open such glorious thread :kidding: (btw, this is one of my controversial posts, so enjoy)

=So, Who were the Dong Yi?=

-----------------------------------------------

Let's start with what they were known as.  We'll see some official Chinese text and decipher what their connotation of Dong Yi were:

-----------------------------------------------

[ (seolmoonheja=the oldest existing chinese dictionary)]:

- only Dong Yi are (Big Person- positive connotation)

- Dong Yi the vulgar kind savant is long-lived (excellent praises)

- In Dong yi there is a place where gentlemenship never died

- Gentlemen() derived from being "someone like Dong Yi"

˽ - If your happy like Dong Yi, you will receive fortune()

---

(hoo han so speaks of):

ؿڪ - because (yi) is the "source of root", they are wise and love creation, as if everything came out of land.   

That is the reason why their instincts were great, and their Գ (do duk) were so good that they were even called

(country where gentlemenship never died)  

That is why confucious wanted to visit (Gooyi-nine states) ͺ

(sorry for messing text up I tried my best)

-------------------------------

There is an official chinese textbook by the name ߣ (san he gyong).  In the episode Ү he ne gyong, you read the following excerpts:

-------------------------------

ߣ-Ү

Ү ٣ Ը ? - Inner to East Sea, around North Sea, there is a country named Choson ( - here it means Old Choson, not North Korea .  These people whom heaven praises so much lives in the countryside and lives close and friendly towards each other.

In that phrase, East sea meant east of China, thus the yellow sea.

Episode (foreign east reading?)

ή ۱

The Gentlemenship country lies north of korean peninsula.  They wear clothes neatly and wears this kind of hat and a sword.  They raise animals and "lived next to two tigers which serves as their pet"  These people love to help each other out and are not likely to get into fight.  There is Moo Goong Hwa (native flower) that opens during day and closes during night. 

---------------------enough of praises.  Let's now go further into defining who Dong Yi were.------------------------

Dong Yi is written as:

means east.  It's combination of (big, great) and (sun).  In other words, the place where sun rises before...or east because sun rises from east.  They called it great place where sun rose- pretty logical because sun=life.

means barbarian.  But let's search deeper into the word "Barbarian".  The word Barbarian comes from two words:  (big, great) (bow).  Keep that in mind.

  (hoo han so) speaked about confucious wanting to go to 9 states.  And that nine states were a gentlemen country.  Keep that also in mind.

ߣ (san he gyong) speaked about the gentlemenship country lying north of korean peninsula------manchu.  On the other episode, it also said that the country was called Choson ().

So Dong Yi = Old Choson?

Baedal was composed of 9 states.....that's why it was called (nine barbarians).....

Choson started from north of Korean peninsula thus Manchu.....

The native flower "moo goong hwa" is also the national flower of Korea....

Handangogi had spoken that Baedal was followed by Old Choson.  It's kind of making sense that both were called Gentlemen country becasue they are from the same person

Barbarian meant big bow....koreans were bowmen and so Chinese called them arrow barbarian....  btw, the oldest chinese dictionary said: ۰

There.  Now Prove me wrong



Edited by demon
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 16:23

Hey demon,

    Arguably, the oldest Chinese dictionary would be Er Ya.

    Which fonts are you using?  None of my encoder can read the Chinese characters.

    Yi is only one of the words for "barbarian."  Wu and a few others also denote "barbarian."  Yi is usually associated with the East, however.  In any event, your theory isn't quite controversial -- Koreas are conventionally identified by Chinese as Yi.  The qualification here, though, is that this doesn't mean only Koreans are Yi.  Japanese are also Yi.  The Eastern Chinese are also arguably of Yi descent.

Peace,

Michael

8-28-2004



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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 17:47
But Koreans are related to the Japanese in a wierd sort of way...iono, but Mengtzu is right the term barbarian is very broad...
The Dongyi were were Dravidians...Who are people who currently reside in southern India...They are darker than what you consider an Indian to be, pertaining to the theory that the aryans met "darker peoples".  Now when the Arayans invaded the Dravidians fled in two directions, some to the south, and some to the east.  ONe starts to see the Dongyi, dravidians, in records right about the time that the Aryans invaded. 
Anyways, the Dongyi probably did spawn many different races....Genetic tests show that Koreans are releated to south east chinese people...Also the Dongyi resided in much of eastern China proper and in the Manchurian-Korean region...

As for Gojosun and Dangun....Scientists have traced last names, and there is a new theory that Dangun was a Miao ruling over Ainus, but large constituates of the Korean Race.  Remember there is no "KOrean" until perhaps the 1100's give or take a few hundred years.  The Dongyi are a large part of Korean ancestry though, not to say that they didn't father many other races...I am being peaceful in this thread, just issuing out information that might be helpful...
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 18:28

Hey Gubukjanggoon,

    I know about the "weird" relationship between Koreans and Japanese, but similarly "weird" relationship can be said to be true between Koreans, Japanese, and Shangdong Chinese.

Peace,

Michael

8-28-2004

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 18:29
Yup Yup....absolutley right Meng Tzu...but are those Shangdong Chinese Han or Manchu, or what...could you specify on specific ethnicity, Chinese, as I have learned in the past few days, is such a broad term.
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 22:09

Hey Gubukjanggoon,

    If all this Dong Yi stuff is accurate, my guess is that the Shangtong Chinese are a mix of Dong Yi with something else.  BTW, I'm doubtful about all this Hua Hsia, Dong Yi stuff -- historical reconstruction based on legends and historical documents that are so old that we can only verify little of them.  The reconstructionists are not interested in knowing what Hua Hsia and Dong Yi mean in later times -- but whether they stood for actual tribal groups in prehistoric time.  Likewise, all the stuff about Aryanism is doubtful.  Recently I've become a bit of a postmodernist when it comes to history.

Peace,

Michael

8-28-2004

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 22:29
Lol good for you Meng Tzu!
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 08:01

Which fonts are you using?  None of my encoder can read the Chinese characters.

I think these are symbols from "Batang".  I think you can download them in Microsoft.com.  I'll check

try this: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=9cf a419f-f25d-4f9c-b1dc-3ef7c4f1be91&DisplayLang=en



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  Quote hansioux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 07:17

Just decode it with the Korean font.  Now decode this in Big-5.  (Damn it, we really should start using that Unicode thing)

Well, the word East F actually come fom sun in the tree.  See it?  Good, it's like an IQ test.  This comes from the Chinese myth that Suns come from the tree ߮ (FuSang) in the ocean to the east.

Also, please avoid using Ѧr as a reference.  That book is normally wrong.  The best source would be Ұ studies.  Because by the time of Ѧr, no one remembered why some character looked a certain way.

Like you said... Dong Yi means Eatern Babarians....... it could mean Chosun, but it can also mean any non-Chinese people to the east.  However, I do agree that after Han dynaster Dong-Yi probably just mean Chosun.  Because.... there was no more east to speak of.  Most of the Dong Yi people being refered to in Shang and Zhou history have already been assimilated into Han.

I would think before the assimilation, there Dong Yi would probably be very similar to the Chosun people back then.  Yi people are famous for their archery.  In fact Z Hou-Yi, the person said to have shot down the suns is of the bird worshpping Yi people.  Hou-Yi is from the tribe a You-Qong a Yi tribe.  The history records the eighth year of king ӱd (Tai-Kang)'s rule, ten suns roamed the sky.

mjϮѶQE鲧nGyLҤK~AQ åXz

mˮѰO~nGuK~AѦ^AQåXvC

The matches the historical time of Hou-Yi when he was still young.

After Tai-Kang died, Hou-Yi put Tai-Kang's son d (Zhong-Kang) to the thorn.  Zhong-Kang was very young.  In fact he died when he was eighteen.  You can imagine who's running the nation.  Hou-Yi of course.

When Zhong-Kang died, Hou-Yi put (Xiang) to the thorn.  However on the eighth year of Xiang's rule, Hou-Yi's subordinate HU (Han-Zhuo) killed him and took over.  He even killed the King (Xiang).

Until Xiangs son ֱd (Shao-Kang) came back and killed Han-Zhuo.

Pretty messed up history.  Ancient time isn't all fun and games



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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 17:51

Hey Hansioux,

    The premise that I've seen with some Korean nationalists is that by proving that Korean is Dong Yi, they suggest that Dong Yi is Korean.  What's the difference?  Just because some of Dong Yi's descendants became Koreans, doesn't mean all descendants of Dong Yi are Koreans.  I think, if I'm not mistaken, Dong Yi used to also populate Eastern China.  If this is true, and if one follow the same logic, one can make the same argument that all descendants of Dong Yi are Chinese.  Now ain't that weird.

Peace,

Michael

8-30-2004



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  Quote hansioux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 17:55

In my understanding, Yi is one of the four races that arrived in China at different times.  Also the way Chinese historians used the term Dong-Yi has changed.  Just like even tho the Huns were gone, they still refered to all babarians to the north as J (Hu), which was the translation of the word Hun.

So to claim all Dong-Yi in Chinese histories are Coreans is not scientific.

You can argue that Coreans still shared a lot of the customs of the real Dong-Yi, while Chinese people didn't retain much of their customs.  That could be true.  But that doesn't mean Dong-Yi are not also Chinese.



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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 20:50
Yes, I thought we already established this.
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 13:35

You can argue that Coreans still shared a lot of the customs of the real Dong-Yi, while Chinese people didn't retain much of their customs.  That could be true.  But that doesn't mean Dong-Yi are not also Chinese.

Well, not all chinese are not Dong Yi.  My point was that Koreans came from Dong Yi.  I never said China wasn't  or did I?

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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 14:32

Hey demon,

    Then what so controversial about your post?? 

Peace,

Michael

8-31-2004

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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 14:53
Ummm.  Good point
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  Quote YanWang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 20:18
Originally posted by demon

[ (seolmoonheja=the oldest existing chinese dictionary)]:

- only Dong Yi are (Big Person- positive connotation)

- Dong Yi the vulgar kind savant is long-lived (excellent praises)

- In Dong yi there is a place where gentlemenship never died

- Gentlemen() derived from being "someone like Dong Yi"

˽ - If your happy like Dong Yi, you will receive fortune()

i dont know where did you found those sentences from Shuo Wen Jie Zhi. give me the whole paragragh in chinese so i can see whether it garbled or not.

(hoo han so speaks of):

ؿڪ - because (yi) is the "source of root", they are wise and love creation, as if everything came out of land.   

That is the reason why their instincts were great, and their Գ (do duk) were so good that they were even called

(country where gentlemenship never died)  

That is why confucious wanted to visit (Gooyi-nine states) ͺ

(sorry for messing text up I tried my best)

Confucious wrote this because he belive there was Chinese Saint Jizi sent to there, and also later books followed this templet because Choson peninsula was under hans rule.  then praise people in korea is priaise han's own citizens. also it was the time when DongYi people incorpated into chinese.

-------------------------------

There is an official chinese textbook by the name ߣ (san he gyong).  In the episode Ү he ne gyong, you read the following excerpts:

-------------------------------

San Hai Jin was not a official book rather than is a geographic fiction book.

it was compiled throught a long time from Spring &autumn  to West Han (770BC-8AD). it was fulled with philosophy of Daolism fiction, and shammanism. for example like the book tells places where immortals lives. only people who want to become immortal believe the book.

ߣ-Ү

Ү ٣ Ը ? - Inner to East Sea, around North Sea, there is a country named Choson ( - here it means Old Choson, not North Korea .  These people whom heaven praises so much lives in the countryside and lives close and friendly towards each other.

In that phrase, East sea meant east of China, thus the yellow sea.

Episode (foreign east reading?)

ή ۱

The Gentlemenship country lies north of korean peninsula.  They wear clothes neatly and wears this kind of hat and a sword.  They raise animals and "lived next to two tigers which serves as their pet"  These people love to help each other out and are not likely to get into fight.  There is Moo Goong Hwa (native flower) that opens during day and closes during night. 

---------------------enough of praises.  Let's now go further into defining who Dong Yi were.------------------------

Dong Yi is written as:

means east.  It's combination of (big, great) and (sun).  In other words, the place where sun rises before...or east because sun rises from east.  They called it great place where sun rose- pretty logical because sun=life.

means barbarian.  But let's search deeper into the word "Barbarian".  The word Barbarian comes from two words:  (big, great) (bow).  Keep that in mind.

  (hoo han so) speaked about confucious wanting to go to 9 states.  And that nine states were a gentlemen country.  Keep that also in mind.

ߣ (san he gyong) speaked about the gentlemenship country lying north of korean peninsula------manchu.  On the other episode, it also said that the country was called Choson ().

So Dong Yi = Old Choson?

Baedal was composed of 9 states.....that's why it was called (nine barbarians).....

Choson started from north of Korean peninsula thus Manchu.....

The native flower "moo goong hwa" is also the national flower of Korea....

Handangogi had spoken that Baedal was followed by Old Choson.  It's kind of making sense that both were called Gentlemen country becasue they are from the same person

Barbarian meant big bow....koreans were bowmen and so Chinese called them arrow barbarian....  btw, the oldest chinese dictionary said: ۰

There.  Now Prove me wrong

DongYi 's orginal meaning is a kind of east peoples used to tote bows, later became to mean all east barbarians,  or a general name for east peoples.

The place name Chaoxian/Choson in ancient chinese books means no differ to a fantastic place where Gods and immortals live. Later Chinese knew a state in the east of known world, so they put word Choson to name the state.

korean claim their ancestry to DongYi, because this was best one they can get from chinese history book.

 



Edited by YanWang


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  Quote hansioux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 20:27
I said some of the same thing already, but nice that someone else thinks so too.
Begging plea of the weak can only receive disrespect, violence and oppression as bestowments. Blood and sweat of the weak can only receive insult, blame and abuse as rewards.

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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 10:24

 dont know where did you found those sentences from Shuo Wen Jie Zhi. give me the whole paragragh in chinese so i can see whether it garbled or not.

I don't have time.  What I do to type chinese is to find every individual letters from "symbol".   It was a nightmare beleive it or not

Confucious wrote this because he belive there was Chinese Saint Jizi sent to there, and also later books followed this templet because Choson peninsula was under hans rule.  then praise people in korea is priaise han's own citizens. also it was the time when DongYi people incorpated into chinese.

UR point?

korean claim their ancestry to DongYi, because this was best one they can get from chinese history book.

gimme other ways you can get korean ancestry

Grrr..
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  Quote YanWang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 11:23
Originally posted by demon

 dont know where did you found those sentences from Shuo Wen Jie Zhi. give me the whole paragragh in chinese so i can see whether it garbled or not.

I don't have time.  What I do to type chinese is to find every individual letters from "symbol".   It was a nightmare beleive it or not

if ya dont have time to prove it. so what was your meaning to copy those separated words from their ancient chinese source?

UR point?

my point was that in history the most of Dong Yi people became a east part of Han chinese rather than became korean ancestors.

gimme other ways you can get korean ancestry

Ma Han, Chen Han, and Bian Han, those three HANs were korean real ancestry. and they are where "Da HAN Min Guo" were come from.

You should answer me that why today's korean claim their every main ancestry was come from Outer lands to korean peninsula, like DongYi from the east china, Gaogouli from northeast china, or hordes in mongolia steppes



Edited by YanWang


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