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12 battles of "(King) Arthur"

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 12 battles of "(King) Arthur"
    Posted: 26-Jan-2017 at 02:11
I barely just managed to get one more battle site done. The 4 i've managed to get re-done now were excessively hard work (in bad situation) and wasted days/week/weeks of my time (12 hours a day, getting nothing else done) and wasted my unfluoridated water rations. It has stressed me to the very limits. (No wonder K Jackson had a heart attack.) I am definitely not able or willing to re-do anymore of the remaining 5 battle sites. It is now proven that they are purposely using any excuse they can to refuse to admit/acknowledge/credit our discovery and years hard work (though the only reason i redid the chapters was because i was incensed at Caldrail unfairly calling me "sloppy" and dismissing all our evidences). They are always qucik to attack any negatives (even if not my fault but situation, even if is not even true or fair), but when i do the excessive hard work they force then there is just nothing but silence.

To save the forum funds i will post the new chapter in the old 12 battles ebook.

Links to the 4 new redone battle sites chapters:
4. Celidon (Kit's Coty/Coldrum & the Weald):
3. Bassas (Reculver):
6. city of the legion (Richborough/Rutupi)
5. Guinnion (Dover)

(One detail section on the date of Celidon battle is just provisional and is a not very good jumble. I also have 5 small bits to add to the Celidon chapter.)

Some positive feed-back would help my morale.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Mar-2017 at 01:02
"... the remains of widespread woods, which were once part of that
great forest which for so long held the Saxon invaders at bay--the
impenetrable “weald,” for sixty years the bulwark of Britain." - Sir AC Doyle ('The Return of Sherlock Holmes', 'VI. The Adventure of Black Peter', 1904.)

Its almost as if Doyle and whoever else already knew then that Arthur's 12 battles were in the south-east quarter (unless he got it from Collingwood or Wheeler who may have been around then (i have to check their dates)).
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jul-2017 at 04:02

This post is on the much disputed question of when was "(king/dux) Arthur", and more specially when the 12 battles of Arthur (including the Badon one) were. Here are lists of the maximum & minimum ranges of the dates for many things that feature in Arthurian chronology. (This comment was stimulated by Caleb's post via Arthurian society in facebook. [You may have to replace the "nz" with your own countries 2 letter initials code (eg nz, au, us, uk) (or replace "" with "com") if link address doesn't work.])


Pope Evaristus/Eucharistus [Nerva] or Eleutherius [Lucius Verus] date ranges from ad 79 (Arundel), to 99-107, to 156 (HRB), to 161/167 (Arundel/ASC), to 174-189 (ASC).

Vortigern dates : 400 (HB), 426 (Hergest/Jones), 449 (ASC).

No person matching/named Arthur mentioned in 2 Gallic chronicles of 452 & 511.

The Anglo-Saxons arrival date ranges from Saxons/Germans 350/360, to Germanic raiders/settlers 367/368, to Hengist 400 (HB), to 438 (ACb), to 443 (ASC),  to 449 (ASC), to 469 (ACb), to Aelle 477, to Cerdic 495, to Port 501, to Wihtgar 514, to Ida before 547?

The main 128 years or 3 generations theories are: 390-518 (Kamlesh), 425/426/428-554 (Hergest/Cambro-Briton/Mary Jones), 449-577.
[From Hengist to Wihtgar are 56 or 66 yrs (Ethelwerd).]
From Anglo-Saxons arrival to Arthur's battle(s) is 40/43/44 yrs or 1 generation (DEB)?
* 128 (Hergest) = 3 x 40/43/44; 42 yrs Africa; 42 yrs in prison Jose of Arimathea; alarm 40 yrs after Maximus (HB); Martin ad 444; 40 days/nights Germanus; 40 yrs Patrick; 40 days Patrick; 40 days Rhun; 43/44 (DEB) = (4 +) 28 + 12 (HB); 16+25 yrs Pat (HB); 40 yr Pat to Brigit + 405 yr, or 40 yrs Pat + 4 yr Columba to Brigit; victory of Arthur on David's day 540/640; 43/44 = 2 x 22 (AC); 19 x 22/23 = 421/438 (HB).
 Arthur (HB) ~ Badon/Bath ~ Ambrosius (DEB) ~ Catgwaloph/Gwoloppum (HB) ~ Cetgueli ~ Guallauc/Gwallawg's battles (HB/Taliesin) ~ Arthur's battles (HB)?
Great king Ambrosius = Ambrose/Embres-gueltic = Gwallawg('s battles) = Arthur's battles?
Arthur's 9/12 battles (Ex-calibur from "stone", 44 yrs, drove Saxons out of land, grave a wonder) = metropolis of Padarn & 3 solemnities/churches of Padarn (Sts Lives) = Patrick ("rock", father Calpurnius, 40 yrs, rid land of serpents, no one knows sepulchre) (HB).
Catgwaloph (Ambrosius, HB) ~ Gwal/Gual "wall" (Severus, HB) ~ Gualenses/Welsh ~ Gualo their leader & Guales their Queen (HRB) ~ Guallauc/Gwallawg (Taliesin/HB) ~ Arthgallo/Arthgal/Art(h)egal of Cargueit/Warguit (HRB)?
Guitolinus ~ Guinnion?

St Germanus (Gwarth?) has date range from [350/360? to Germanic settlers 367/8? to] Halleluyah 429, to 2nd visit 447, [to vita/life 480/480s? to St Geminianus (Modena Archivolt)?]

Arthur's battles against specifically Kentishmen (HB/Collingwood) who have date range 449-488 and/or 560-616 (ASC)?

1st victory of Ambrosius between 429-450/456 (EH?)
St Pol/Paul(inus) Aurelian(us)/Uurmonocus de Leon in Breton tradition.

"488-547 only landings of Saxons on the coast".
The dates of the gaps between Bretwaldas are 491-560, and 670-802.
No gains gap in ASC ranges from 519 to 552 (ASC/Brynjulfson).
"510-555 emigration of Angles & Frisians to the Continent".
"gap in Gildas 500-550" (Carroll)?

"(King) Arthur's" (battles) date ranges from tranisition from Draco to Ursa (Hitching), to Bronze Age (Drou), to [Ursus 776-42 bc (me)? to Arviragus, and/or Deoartavois 47- 67 (me)? to] 180 ce, [to 350/383 (Morris)?] to 421 (CMSM), to 450/454 (Malory), to 516 (AC), to abidcated in 574 (541 yrs after the crucifiction), to contemp of Urien's dtr (C&O), to 631- 650 (Swedish), to 640, to 650 (Wace, Morris?) to 700 ce (Arthurian Infopedia).

Our own range for possible dates of the 1st battle of Arthur at Glein is from Germanus 429, to 1st victory of Ambrosius between 429-450/456 (EH?), to grail 454 (Malory), to Graine 480, to "Glein 486" (Wiki), to Cerdicshore 495/514 (ASC), to "Badon 516" (AC), to the 519 start of the no gains gap in ASC (Brynjulfson), and/or "KA subdues Ireland 519", to Gleawancester 577, to Paulinus?

rivers/fords/fleets/shores/burns/lons/fords/ports/wets dates: 449-485 (ASC), Glein-Bassas (HB), 495-519 (ASC), Tribruit before Ida (HB/PG), Sarum 552 (ASC)?

Forests/woods dates: from Caesar (Florus), to battle of godeu/trees (Triads), [to fled like fire 473?] to Categern, to Andredesleag 477, to Netley 508 (ASC)? to Cerdicesleag 527, to Celidon (HB), to Celidon/Arthuret 573 (AC), to Fethanleag 584 (Ethelwerd).

Llongborth date range is from [Port 501? or 508?] to 710/712?

Pope Supplicius date ranges from Simplicius 468-483, [to Symmachus 498-514? to Sergius 689?]

Plagues of Camlan/Justinian 537 (AC), Maelgwn/Yellow 547 (AC), 682 (AC).

"Carisbrook"/"Wight" (which Hunt and we both have thought might link with Guinnion/Dover/Downs) dates in the sources range from [Guitolinus? to] 514 (ASC), to 530 (ASC), to 534 (ASC), to 544 (ASC), [to Hwiterne "white house" (& Columba/Iona "dove") 565 (ASC)?]

Arthur's victory against Saxons [= Guinnion or Badon] ranges from 540, to 640.

St David (&/or St David's) date range is from 458 (AC); to victory of Arthur on St Dav's day 540, to 580s (Tigernach), David buried by orders of Maelgwn late 6th cent, to d c 600, to d 601 (AC/WA), or d in reign of Constantine, to field of Leeks, to victory of Arthur on St David's day 640, [to 645 (AC)?]
(Confusion between St David's day and Gildas bday?)

Arthur may be connected with St Padarn, and/or might be linked with St Patrick who has dates range from 405, to 428/429/430 (ASC), 438, to 457 (AC), and/or Pederydan 658, and St Peter of dates in 601-3 and  616/617-618?

Sts Julius & Aaron (of the City of the legion) day 1st of July, matches Calends of July (3 solemnities of Padarn), & calends Julius 540 (ASC/Ethelwerd), Iago 613 (AC), calends July 1093 (kerediegean battle Wales), & "Merthir Ivn [Julii] & Aaron"?

forts/cities/cesters/ports/dins/burhs dates: Andredescester 490 (ASC), [port 501 (ASC)?] Wihtgarasburh 530-547 (ASC)? fort guinnion (HB), city of the legion (HB).

Badon/Bath (chapter/section 50 or 56) date ranges from Bladud "929-909"/853 bc (HRB), to c 430-440 (Higham), to 470 (HRB), to c 485 (Snyder), to c 485-520 (Wood), to 490s (Wood), to "493" ("EH"), 494-7 (Morris), to 500 (Dumville/orthodox/average), to "scholars now think Badon 518 is 10-15 years too late", to 516/519/520 (AC/WA, Ashe), to 554 (Hergest), [to Wibbandune 568? to synod Victory 569?] to Bath 577 (ASC), to 580 (Simon Stirling), to 661 (Hunt), to 665 (AC), to 674 (Evans-Gunther?) [to 940/960 (HB/me)?]
* Badon of AC = Guinnion of HB.

St Martin (who Mintz & i tentatively linked with Arthur/Merlin & Ares/Mars) date ranges from 444 (ASC), [to calends Martii 538? and Martianus 538? to victory of KA on St David's Day (1 March) 540?] to Hwiterne 560 [or 565?] (ASC), [to Merlin 573 (AC)? to victory of KA on St David's day 640? to Mark 822? to Burmaltus/Durmaltlegalois &/or Mardoc/Melwas/Meleagant (Modena Archivolt)?]

Cerdic/Cedric / Cheldric (1 &/or 2) / Cherdich dates range : Caractacus/Caradog vs emperor Claudius, to Coroticus of St Patrick, to Ceretic interpreter of Hengist, Cerdic of Wessex 495 - dies 534 (ASC), to Ceretig/Careticus of Elmet 616/619, to Kerediegean battle 1093, to Carrado (Modena Archivolt), to Caradoc of Llancarfan mid 12th cent.

Anderida/Pevensey (which is either Agned/Bregion or Arthuret) has dates ranging from [many skeletal remains of young Saxon men buried on Highdown Hill dating from 2nd half of 5th century"? to] 477 (Asc/Ethelwerd), to Cayburn 488 (local tradition), to 490/491/492 (ASC/Ethelwerd), 756, ["Hastings" (Pastscape)?]

Ida's date range is from 547 (ASC), to c 550, to 560 (ASC), to 584, [to St Aidan 607? to Idris 632?]

Camlan ranges from 537/539 (AC/WA), to 542 (HRB), [to civil war 568 (me)? to Bedcanford 571 (ASC/me)? to Arthuret 573 (me)?] to 576 (Hergest), to after Arthuret (Triads),  [to Tintern 584 (me)?] to Woddesbeorg 592? to Cantscaul 631 (AC)?]

gap between Badon and Gildas writing date ranges from 10 yrs to 40/43/45 yrs, to 60 yrs (Doyle). [Arthur's reign from Badon to Camlan was 22 yrs which is half of 40/44.]

Gildas date ranges from 421 (CMSM?), to "gap in Gildas 500-550" (Carroll), to d 512 (W. of M.), to 546 (1638 translation), to 565 (AC), to d 570/572 (AC), [to Hilda or Elvod?].

Maelgwn's death & yellow plague date ranges from 547 (AC), to Mailcun 559 (HB), to Coinmagil 577, to 586 (Hergest), to at Arthuret (DMT).

Arthuret/Caledon ranges from [Andredescester 491? to] before Camlan (Triads), to time of Maelgwn (DMT), to 573 (AC) to 593 (Hergest).

Sutton Hoo dates range : Merovingian coins 491-518, [Vendel era  about 550-793?] Merovingian coins 578-582- 602, Maurice &/or Tiberius 583, Merovingian coins 588/595-612, "cannot be dated earlier than 620".

catreath/catraeth/gododdin date range from 598/c600, to 638 (gododdin).

city of the legion/"Chester" date ranges from Caer Lleon on Dee 917 bc,
to Caer Lleon on Usk 401 bc, to Diocletian, to synod 601 (AC), [to Liganburh 571 (ASC/Ethelwerd)?] to battle 602 (Hergest), to 607 (ASC) to battle 613 (AC), to 616.

field of Leeks (St Dav's day) date ranges from [540, to] 633, to 640.
Might be linked with Staffs Hoard(s) from Lichfield of "680-740"/"7th(-8th) century"?

2nd Badon date ranges from 661 (Hunt), to 665 (AC), to 674 (Evans-Gunther?)

Easter dates 453 ac, 626 asc, 640 asc, 661 asc, 665 ac, 685 asc, 716 asc, elvod 755.

Cadwaladr date ranges from at field of Leeks, to 664 (Hergest), to 682 (AC), to 689 (HRB).
* Catgwaloph, Catgublaun/Catguollaunus, Catgualart, Gwaladyr/Gwledig/Vladika, Tewdrig?

HB &/or "Nennius" [nin "roof, protector, prince"? or nimed/nemed "sacred, venerated, heaven"?] date ranges from Nennius 55 bc (HRB), [to Nemuivus found at Bodleian 5th-8th cents? to Ninnian 565 (ASC)?] to Nennius 613 (ASC), to 796 (OEC), to Mermenus 438 + 421 = 858 (HB prologue), to 946 (HB), to 976 (HB), to 994 (OEC), to Mark 10th cent (Gunn), to Dumville on Nennius not before 12th century? to "12th cent historians refer to HB under name of Gildas / ascribed it to Gildas"?


Arthurian Refs: AC/WA, ASC; Arthurian Infopedia; Geoff Ashe; Bede (EH); Brynjulfson; C&O; Collingwood; Charles Evans-Gunther; Geoff of Mon (HRB); Gildas (DEB); Gallic; HRB; Dan/August Hunt; Malory; Morris; Nennius (HB); OEC; Bk of Hergest; Tigernach; Triads; Taliesin; M Wood; Wiki.

Links: ours:

Links: others:
Welsh Annals
OEC (Nennius/HB, Gildas, HRB, Ethelwerd)
Pa Gur

AC = Welsh Annals
ASC = Anglo-Saxon chronicle
AC(b) = Annales Cambriae / Welsh Annals
c(a) = circa/approximately/roughly / around about
C&O = Culwch & Olwen
CMSM = C of Mt St Mich
cent = century
contemp = contemporaneous/contemporary
ce = ad
dtr = daughter
d = died/death/dead
DEB = Gildas'
EH = Bede's
HB = "Nennius"
HRB = Geoff of Monmouth's
Jose/Joe/Joey = Joseph
KA = "(King) Arthur"
OEC = Old English Chronicles
PG = Pa Gur
St = Saint
WA = Welsh Annals
W. of M.
wiki = wikipedia
yr(s) = year(s)
& = and
~ = may possibly correspond/match
[things in square bracket] = our own some-time possible match theory

Edited by Arthur-Robin - 10-Jul-2017 at 13:18
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2017 at 04:16

A startling new discovery that Arthur is connected with St Patrick requires some discussion. In studying Arthurian chronology and sources we accidentally found seeming links between Arthur and Ambrosius, Arthur and Gwallawg, Arthur and St Patrick (see the last post above). Below we give a list of similarities between Arthur and Patrick. (Just in case anyone doesn't know, it is important to be aware that our previous discovery was that 8 of the 9 battle sites of Arthur match 8 of the 9 Saxon Shore sites.)

Arthur: Arthur's capital city and 12 battles / 9 battle sites are linked with the 'metropolis of Padarn', and the 3 solemnities/churches of (St) Padarn (Sts Lives), Llanbadarn/Llan-patern/Lampeter (Wonders), Pedrog (Vita Cadog), and Gillapatric (HRB). (Life of Padarn is one of the 7 saints lives that mention Arthur.) Guinevere gave a magic apple to "the Irish knight Sir Patrice".
[Arthur is connected with stones/rocks via the Wonders of Britain. Arthur's site of Dubglas at Othona/Bradwell is linked with St Peter.]
Patrick: name St Patrick (& Downpatrick) from pater/patricius "noble one, patrician, priest" is close to that of St Padarn/Paternus.

Arthur: is British.
Patrick: "born in Britain".
[Petroc is "captain of Cornish saints". Patern is Breton saint.]

Arthur: "subdues Ireland in 519". (AC has Arthur & Mordred with Britain & Ireland.) Gildas went to Ireland. (Cold, snakeless "Ireland" in the Wonders is seemingly cold, snakeless Thanet.)
Patrick: went to Ireland.

Arthur: Arthur's cross (of Guinnion/Badon) seemingly links with St Andrew's saltire cross of Athelstaneford?
Patrick: St Patrick's cross (either pattee or saltire) (&/or Shamrock?)

Arthur: linked with Cruc Mawr of the Wonders of Britain.
Patrick: linked with Crucachan-Aichle (Croagh-Patrick).

Arthur: associated with Cerdic/Cedric, Caradoc, Cereticiaun, Carannog.
Patrick: associated with Coroticus.

Arthur: associated with a legion, and with Logres.
Patrick: associated with soldiers of Coroticus, and with king Logiore, and Lerins?

Arthur: connected with 40/43/44 years (from Saxons arrival to Badon, or from Badon to Gildas writing DEB).
Patrick: 40 yrs. 16 + 25 yrs. 40 days.

Arthur: has sword C(h)alabrum, Caliburn(us) (Latin), Calibo(u)rne, C(h)alabrun, Caledfwlch (Welsh), Kaledvoulc'h (Breton), Caladbolg (Irish), Caliburc, Callibo(u)rc, Calibourch, Escalibor(c) (French), Calesvol (Cornish), Calibore, Callibor, Excalibur (English) taken from stone/anvil/lake.
Patrick: his father was Calpurnius/Calpernius (possibly same as Palladius?) (Patrick can also be linked with Peter "rock/stone".)

Arthur: Arthur of the HB is considered to maybe be the same as Ambrosius/Aurelius of the DEB whose parents "wore purple". (Aurelius "golden, fine, excellent", prominent Roman clan.)
Patrick: name Patrick from patricius "noble one, patrician, priest". His father was Calpurnius "a Roman official (a decurion) and deacon", his grandfather Potitus was a "priest"; his mother was Conc(h)essa.

Arthur: drove Saxons/pagans/dogs out of Britain (at Clarence & in 12 battles).
Patrick: rid Ireland of serpents/snakes.

Arthur: "his grave is a wonder". (Linked with Brychan's sepulchre.)
Patrick: "no one knows his sepulchre".

Arthur: pope Supplicius. (Sword Caliburn.)
Patrick: pope Celestine/Celestinus. (Associated with Segerus.)

Arthur: was either in 5th cent or 6th cent. (Arthur of the HB is considered to maybe be the same person as Ambrosius/Aurelius of Gildas, and the HB seems to imply that the 44 yrs of Gildas is linked with either: alarm 40 yrs after Maximus, or Martin ad 444, or 40 days St Martin, or 40 days/nights Germanus, or 40 yrs Patrick, or 40 days Patrick, or (4 +) 28 + 12 of Ambrosius, or 16 + 25 yrs Patrick, or 40 yrs Patrick to Brigit + 405 yr, or 40 yrs Patrick + 4 yrs Columba to Brigit?)
Patrick: dates range is 405 to 461.

Arthur: associated with Merlin(us)/Myrddin/Ambrosius, Burmaltus/Durmalt &/or Mardoc/Melwas/Meleagant. (Mintz and us tentatively linked Arthur/Merlin with Ares/Mars & St Martin. Arthur is linked with St Martin le Grand of Dover. Merlin is closely similar to Melkinus?)
Patrick: associated with Milcho, and/or with St Matheus/Amatheus (who seemingly may be same as Maxim(ian)us?) "He was educated by a druid." Linked with ides of March.

Arthur: linked with Augusel (HRB), Isdernus (Modena Archivolt).
Patrick: linked with Auxilius, Isserninus (HB).
(Germanus of Auxerre?)

Arthur: section 50 or 56 of HB.
Patrick: between sections 50 & 56 of HB.

Arthur: associated with Guinnion "white" (& Dover/Downs), and St Alban('s).
Patrick: seems to be closely connected with Columba "dove"?

Arthur: associated with "Mary" & Guinevere.
Patrick: seems to be closely conneced with Brigit? His mother in some versions is Macha. (Shamrock. Patrick's mother was Concessa)

Arthur: Arthur's battles from Guinnion/Dover to Badon/Portchester were in the Downs. (Cruc Mawr "mountain/hill/heap/mound/tumulus" is the large cruciform platform at Richborough.)
Patrick: associated with town Dunum/Down.

Arthur: Arthur's battles are linked with the Wonders of Britain which features the "Severn".
Patrick: associated with Segerus.

Arthur: dux of the "Picts".
Patrick: "died in the land of the Picts".

Arthur: linked with Camelot. [Campus Electi?]
Patrick: linked with Amatheus/Matheus, Amalgaid, Mt Eli, and/or Armagh.

Arthur: Gildas was in Armagh.
Patrick: Patrick was in Armagh.

Arthur: some scholars gave evidence that Arthur may have lived to a reasonably old age?
Patrick: Lived to 120 yrs (85 yrs apostle of Irish).

Arthur: associated with Bassa(s) (HB) [which is Reculver nearby Birchington]; associated with the Wind Hole (vith gwint / flatio vente, in the 'Wonders of Britain'); associated with bear(s); associated with St Brynach; [associated with Brychan's sepulchre.] [Arthur's 9 battle sites match 9 Saxon shore sites, a few of which had monasteries or churches: Cnobheresburg at Yarmouth (Glein), monastery-church at Reculver (Bassas), and possibly Bede's Bosanhamm? Compare that the 2 sites of Santa Maria de Bretona and Santiago de Compostela in Galicia might be analogous to 2 Arthurian sites in Kent?]
Patrick: was from Banna Venta (Berniae) [which may be related to the "Beneventan monastery" in the Saints Lives?]

Arthur: can be linked with green via Cornish saints (St Petroc) &/or Breton saints. [Green shield & white shield? Weald & downs.]
Patrick: colour green.

Arthur: connected with Pelleas, Pellenore, king Poulentus. Indirectly linked with Breton St Pol/Paul(inus) Aurelian(us). [Pelagian heresy. Poul of Penni chen. Arthur's 1st battle site Glein has link with Glen of Paulinus.]
Arthur bore Cross &/or Mary on his shield or shoulder at Guinnion or Badon (Dover/Braddon). [Dover is linked with Bran.]
Patrick: connected with deacon Palladius [possibly same as deacon Calpurnius?]
(The palladium is associated with Pallas/Athena/Minerva (and/or Vesta).)

Arthur: was "christian"?
Patrick: was "christian".

Arthur: wasn't written about in detail until hundreds of years later.
Patrick: wasn't written about in detail until hundreds of years later.

Arthur: 2 Gildases theory. 2 Arthurs theory (Hassell).
Patrick: 2 Patricks theory.

Arthur: linked with city of the legion which was city of citizens Julius and Aaron.
Patrick: "father of the citizens"; "fellow citizens of the devils".

Arthur: 12battles, leader of battles, victorious in all.
Patrick: "The Patrick portrayed by T & M is a martial figure...." "... tells of Patrick being met by 2 ancient warriors". Associated with Victoricus.

Arthur: 12 (3 x 4) battles / 9 (3 x 3) battle sites.
Patrick: Shamrock (3 or 4 leaves) & trinity.

Edited by Arthur-Robin - 19-Jul-2017 at 06:10
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2017 at 21:44

Here is 2nd rough draft of new theory that date of Badon is encoded in the HB (of "Nennius").

Gildas possibly seems to imply that Ambrosius was the leader at Badon; the HB seems to imply that Badon was time of Ambrosius? (Bede possibly implies a link of Badon with the Halleluyah victory of Germanus?)

The HB possibly seems to subtly imply that Badon was sometime between 348/365/373/400/405/409/421/428/438/444/447 to 542/547 [or 574?]
Traditional sources dates for Arthur include 421, 454 (Malory), 470 (some scholars opinion from the number of slain in HRB), 540 (great victory on St David's day), 554 (Hergest, Jones, CB).

Parts of the HB possibly may have been written by Gildas or a near contemporary? There seem to be possible matches in the HB for the 40/43/44 yrs of Gildas:
5658 + 373 + 28 + 12 (HB); 5658 + 373 + 28 + 4 = 400 + 69 (HB).
Jesus + 405/438 yrs = Patrick + x/40/85 + 40 (incl 4) = Brigit HB.
40 days St Patrick; 40 yrs St Patrick (16 + 25 yrs? from birth to 40 yo, & from 40 yo to 85 yo); 120 yrs Patrick ("like Moses") is 3 x 40 (like Hergest).
40 days St Martin; St Martin is 444th yr ad. (Mintz's paper & our own paper showed seeming possible links between Arthur/Merlin & Ares/Mars & Martin.)
40 days/nights Germanus.
Alarm 40 yrs after Maximus (HB).

The birth day of Gildas (whose life has a dates range of 421 to 572) seemingly might be linked with either birth day of Columba/Columcille (HB, 521 in AC), or birth day of St David ("great victory  of Arthur against Saxons on St David's day", "Patrick prophesied David's birth"), or birth day of Brigit (454 in AC). (Brigit seems to link with Mary of Guinnion/Badon. Columba/Iona means "dove" and is linked with Hwiterne "white house" and thus with Guinnion and Dover. Gildas b 421 resembles Columba 521?) [Or, a previous considered possibility is that Arthur vs Gildas/Caw might be linked with Ambrosius vs Guitolinus?]

"Arthur" seems to be connected with St Padarn/Paternus (eg "i Paternus known as Arthur"), and with St Patrick/Maun (eg Arthur: 7 or 9 battle sites, 44 yrs, sword excalibur from "stone", grave a wonder; St Patrick: raised 9 from dead, 40 yrs, his father Calpurnius, his sepulchre unknown). The metropolis of Padarn seems to be linked with the city of the legion [& Richborough/Rutupi]? The 3 solemnities of Padarn, and the 3 churches of Padarn are linked with Arthur's battles. Arthur's battles features in the HB either in section 50 before Patrick section, or section 56 after Patrick section. 2 followers of Patrick have same names as 2 companions of Arthur in the Modena Archivolt.
Patricks dates range is:
7 / 16/17 / 25 yrs (HB) / 30 yrs (AC) / 40 / 85 / 120 yrs (HB);
405 (HB), [421 (HB)?] 428/429/430 (ASC), 432 (Irish Annals), 438 (HB), 457 (AC), 461/462 (Irish Annals), 492 (Irish Annals), 553 (relics of Pat, Irish Annals).

Gwallawg's battles in Taliesin seem to possibly match Arthur's battles of HB & of the PG [& the 9 Saxon Shore sites].
Ambrosius = Ambrose/Embres-gueltic which possibly = Gwallawg?
Ambrosius' battle Catgwaloph/Gwoloppum may possibly link with Guallauc/Gwallawg?
Badon of AC = Guinnion of HB which possibly may link with Guitolinus?
Gwallawg (Taliesin) ~ Gavael-vawr (PaGur)
~ Rithergabail??
Gwallawg ~ Tudu-vallus?? 
Arthgal / Arthur / Arthwys (HB) ~ Gwarth(ur) / Garthwys?
Artognou ~ Guorthenau?
Gwarth Ennian ~ Guinnion/Gurnion?

The primary historical original "(King) Arthur" was one or two or more persons in the Saxon Shore between the 300s/400s to 600s/700s (maximum). Our SS KA candidates are some of the ones in this list of King Arthur candidates:
The mysterious body of levitating altar (Wonders); the Dover Painted House skeleton; Gwallawg (Taliesin); Ambrosius/Aurelius (Gildas/Nennius); Amr (Wonders); St Padarn/Paternus (Tintagel, Sts Lives, Kamlesh); St Patrick (HB); Brychan; Tewdrig (Tintern); St Andrew; Luthor/Liber son of Art; St Martin (Mintz); Germanus / Gwarth Ennian (EH); count Theodosius "the brown bear"; Categern; Kentigern Garthwys / Mungo; Vortimer (HB, HRB); St David; the king Tuduvallus of St Ninian story; Ninian's christian father; Gwarthur (Gododdin); Gwythyr ap Greidiawl; Ursicinus (Hoxne); Cissa (Nothgyth Quest); Cadwallon or Cadwaladr; Art(h)us (Swedish King List); count of Saxon Shore; Sutton Hoo Man; dux brit. (ND); pre-Augustine "Ethelbert" (ASC); "British King" (ASC); "progeny of AA" (DEB); "bear" Cuneglas (DEB); Mac Erca (Pestano); Arthur mac Aedan (Ardrey); Riothamus (Sidonius, Ashe); Natanleod (ASC); Authari or Rothari (Lombard king); Maelgwn (DEB); Urien(s) (Brewyn); Bodwyr (Brynjulfson); "Cerdic" (Han, Hunt); Artognou (Tintagel); st Arthmael; pope Pelagius/Martin; Arthari (Diaconus); Great Britain; Pictish king (Omer, Bullen); mac Art (Irish), LAC; Arviragus (HRB); Bacchic figure (Dover Painted House); Deoartavois (Hoeh); grave/cenotaph at cruciform platform of Richborough; Bran; Arthuret; Cole; Arthgal; Mercury Artaios; Arthur of Bradley; Artook Khan (Turkish); Ardys (Lydian); Rudra/Siva; Artha (Campbell, Walker); Ares/Mars (Mintz); Asshur (Genesis 10); the bear of Daniel (bible); Sarmatian/Nart; Herr Thor (Waddell); Artemis; Ursa; Arcturus; Long Man (Wilmington/Windover), the porter Gavael-vawr (Pa Gur), Arthwys son of Mavricus/Meurig/Mor ("Gwent"); Arthur (m)ap Petr(oc) ("Dyfed/Demetia").
The name "Arthur" may possibly be like a title or position abit like Pendragon is considered to be?

Thus we have now provisionally more or less answered the 3 main questions of "where was Arthur?" "when was Arthur?" and "who was Arthur" (and "was Arthur a king?" and "was Arthur a christian?")


And here is very rough copy of our new Camelot information from a recent facebook comment of ours:

Versions of the name Camelot include:
Caamalot, Kaamalot, Kaamelot, Gamalaot, Chamalot, Camchilot, Camelot, Kamelot, kemelet, Camalot, Kameloth, Cameloth, Kamaelot, Camaalot, Kamaalot, Camaelot, Camehelot, Camaaloth, Kamaaloth, Kamahaloth, Camahaloth; Schamilot, Damolot, Camylot.

Some known Camelot theories/evidences:
Malory thought Camelot was "Winchester".
Camelot has a St Stephen's church.
Some say Camelot may be near Camlan(n)?
Some thought Camelot is Camulodunum/Colchester.
Shallot was upstream from Camelot.
one source says "Camelot was Tintagel" but i don't know whether reliable?
"many towered Camelot" [compare 140 churches lyonesse/logres/legions?]

possible originals of Camelot/Schamilot in Arthurian traditional sources (HRB, HB/Wonders, DEB):
nobles of Kemenet-heboe;
campus/field Electi/elleti/Aelecti/gleti (Bassalig? "district of Glevesing") [which may link with Eliseg &/or Mt Eli &/or Helig's land / land of Helig / kingdom of Helig &/or 'vy(.)thneint Elei' "Vultures of Ely" (Pa Gur)?]
campus Heli (metropolis of St Padarn);
camas Longart/Longphort ("near Conchra on loch long");
castle of Dimilioc (Tintagel, HRB)?
monastery Cambuslang;
Campus Lapideus / campo iuxta lapidem tituli ("Richborough")?
Cameliard / Carmelide;
Rhos / Mel-ros ("yellow headland") ; Maelgwn?
field of Gai Campi.
field Maisbeli.
Natanleod? [Naw Cant Lliwed "ruler of 900 (warrior) companies"]
Burmaltus/Durmalt-le-galois or Mardoc or Carrado (Modena Archivolt)?
catel Drunluc?
Gomeret ("Guined")?
Gamille the Maiden of the Castle?
Celliwig ("in Cornwall")?
Samuil Pen...?
Elasius / Elesa (father of Cerdic)?
The city where was born Helena (mother of Constantine)?
Maelgwn &/or court of Rhos?
sons of Eliffer/Elifert (AC).
Mt Eli or Amatheus or Amalgaid or "Armagh" (of St Patrick's life in HB).
Shamrock (of St Patrick).
Amallet / Alled / Allaid / Alyth (Gododdin)?
Meigle (local Scottish Arthurian tradition).
Maegla (501 ASC)?
Eliseg (Pillar of Eliseg).
Eli & Enoch, or Cynvelin (Taliesin)?
Cole / Maelor

possible later analogous sites elsewhere in British Isles / W Europe:
Cambus kenneth / Campsie(s) (Stirling)??
Santa Maria de Compostela (Galicia, analogous to site in Arthurian Britain)
cam Loth "twisted/crooked + marsh" (Dunadd/Dunardry, river Add)

possible south-east [Saxon Shore] Camelot name matches:
Cavloc/"saul" (Sutton Hoo);
Mellitus (London)?
Colton (Dover)?
Camlet Way?
Cams/Cam / Hamble (Portchester/Southampton)??

great white palace of white marble at Camelot (melyn "yellow"?) [at "Winchester"/Guintonhi.]
    Possible actual site Richborough/Rutupi:
large (white) cruciform platform building "faced with Italian marbles"?

Pont-Stephen (Lam-peter)
~ church of st Stephen [1st christian martyr] at Camelot
~ St Alban & Sts Aaron & Julius of city of legion 1st british xtian martyrs
~ Labienus tribune of Julius Caesar (1st Roman to die in Britain)
~ large cruciform platform at Richborough [may be cenotaph/grave?]
~ grave of Gawain at Richborough/Rutupi or Dover?

A few years older post is here to see progress:

Edited by Arthur-Robin - 08-Sep-2017 at 04:36
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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The challenge has arisen to more certainly identify what south-east person(s) is/are the true original of "(King) Arthur". We have shown stark evidences that Arthur's 9 battle sites only-best match the set of the 9 Saxon Shore sites. But some rival Arthur candidates like Arthur mac Aedan still have some conviction for people because they do still have some points for them. For example Arthur mac Aedan is claimed to be "earliest known person with name Arthur". These things don't disprove our evidence that Arthur's 9 battle sites match the SS sites, but they still have to be explained how they fit with our scenario. Sometimes things may really be wrong scholarly opinions, like Gododdin is considered to have been in Edinburgh area and at such and such a dates time, but we think that it seemingly may possibly really have been in the south-east. With the rival Arthur candidates some questions are: what are the true connections of these rival candidates families [to our south-east Arthur]? And, what better south-east SS KA candidate(s) of our own can we present? Below is a new first draft of notes on our own main south-east Arthur candidates, some of which are looking pretty possible. (We hope to edit and add more to this in future.)

These are are main Arthur candidates so far:

St Patrick Sen / Maewyn Succat &/or St Padarn/Paternus Peisrudd/Coli:
(Patrick's different various names are: Cothirthiacus/Cothraige "4 houses", Patrick "patrician, father of the citizens" or "rock", holy Maewyn/Maun/Magonus "famous" or "servant lad", Succat/Succetus/Sochet "swineherd" or "god of war", Segerus? Palladius?)
There are many similarities between Arthur and Patrick and its seems sure that there is some very close connection between the two of them. We can't list all the similarities here as there are too many, but we have listed alot of them in a separate paper, we will only give a few examples to serve the purpose here.
Arthur: has close connection with Padarn/Paternus. Patrick: links with Padarn. The version Badrig recalls the name Badon?
Arthur (m)ap Petr(oc) of "Dyfed/Demetia".
Patrick's other name Maun/Magon links with Arthurian names Mungo (Kentigern), Mabon (Gwallawg's battles), ... "stone", Mor (Fergus & Mac Erca)?
Arthur's 12 battles immediately before or after Patrick's life in the HB.
Patrick's name Succetus means "god of war" which matches Arthur leader of battles.
Patrick: 4 names. 4 houses of druids. Arthur: 12 (3 x 4) battles?
Patrick associated with Columba/Columcille of Iona whose name means "dove" and who is linked with Hwiterne "white house" and thus with Arthur's Guinnion "white" and Dover (or Downs).
Arthur: sword Excalibur/Caliburn (from "stone"?) Pat: his father was Calpurnius.
Patrick associated with Victoricus. Arthur was raised by Ector, and was victorious in all his 12 battles.
Arthur: Badon linked with 44 yrs. Patrick: Jesus + 405/438 yrs = Patrick + x/40/85 + 40 (incl 4) = Brigit HB.
40 days St Patrick; 40 yrs St Patrick (16 + 25 yrs? from birth to 40 yo, & from 40 yo to 85 yo); 120 yrs Patrick ("like Moses") is 3 x 40 (like Hergest).
The birth day of Gildas might link with "Patrick prophesied David's birth", or with birth of Brigit (who is associated with Patrick).
Patrick connected with Brigit who seems to link with Mary of Guinnion/Badon.
Arthur: drove Saxons out of Britain. Patrick: rid Ireland of serpents.  (Patrick as "swineherd" might link with this, or with the porker of Cabal's cairn story?)
2 followers of Patrick have same names as 2 companions of Arthur in the Modena Archivolt.
Arthur: 9 battle sites. Pat: raised 9 from dead.
Death of Patrick's disciple Mochta 535/537 ~ death of Arthur & Mordred 537?
Patrick: major shrone at Glastonbury. Arthur: supposedly buried at Glastonbury.
Arthur: some suggest he lived to quite old. Pat: lived to an old age.
Arthur: his grave a wonder. Pat: his sepulchre is "not known".
Patricks dates range is:
6/7 / 16/17 / 25 yrs (HB) / 30 yrs (AC) / 40 / 85 / 120 yrs (HB);
387, 403 (popular writers & folk piety), 405 (HB), [421 (HB)?] 428/429/430 (ASC), 432 (Irish Annals), 433 (Life of Patrick), 438 (HB), 457 (AC), 461/462 (Irish Annals), 492 (Irish Annals), 496-508 (Coroticus), 553 (relics of Pat, 60 yrs after, Irish Annals).
Arthur is most often considered to be either in the 400s or the 500s.
There is a Gillapatric in the Camlan list in the HRB.
The life of Padarn features as probably the most prominent of the 7 saints lives that mention Arthur.
The metropolis of Padarn seems to be linked with the city of the legion [& Richborough/Rutupi]? (Paerburge in the Pa Halgan?) The 3 solemnities of Padarn, and the 3 churches of Padarn are linked with Arthur's battles.
Tintagel Stone possibly says "Artognou descendant of Patern[us] Colus made (this). Colus made (this)." Or "i Paternus known as Arthur"?
The "walking stone" in the 'Wonders of Britain'?
Ambrosius'/Merlin's mother "lived in St Peter's church" (HRB).
A prominent Arthurian has name Fitzpatrick.
Petreius Cotta? Pedridan/Penda 658ASC? Magister Peditum?

St Martin of Bullions/Tours / [Martin le Grand?] :
Mintz's paper and our own papers have shown tentative links between Arthur/Merlin (or Mordred?) and Martin and Ares/Mars. There is a St Martin church in Canterbury which city is at intersection of roads leading to 5 of our 9 battle sites of Arthur.
Guinnion of Arthur is Dover where is St Martin le Grand church. St Martin of Hwiterne "white house" 560 of the ASC may be linked with Dover (& fort Guinnion).
St Martin of Galicia's death date of 580.
Badon 44 yrs of Gildas may link with 40 days St Martin (HB), St Martin is 444th yr ad (Ethelwerd).
The eclipse of calends of Martii (1st March) 538 & the eclipse of calends of Julius 540 might be liked with our battle of Guinnion at Dover (St Martin) & battle of city of the legion (St Julius) at Richborough?
"seed of Mars" (Brunanburh, ASC) ~ progeny of Ambrosius?

Macsen Gwledig / [Magnus] Maximus Brittanniae / [Petronius Maximus?] :
Magnus Maximus ~ Magnanimous Arthur?
Badon 44 yrs (DEB) ~ Alarm 40 yrs after Maximus (HB).?
Maximus features in the Pillar of Eliseg.
Arthur son of Masgwid/Masguic?
Macvsm/a of the Wroxeter Stone?

Ambrosius/Ambrose/Emrys/Amr/Merlin Gueltic / Aurelius:
Arthur comes between Ambrosius and Maelgwn in the DEB & the HB, so he could be anyone between them (inclusive).
Ambrosius "immortal" was Aurelius "golden, fine, excellent", dux (DEB) and "great king" (HB). Arthur was magnanimous "great souled" (HB), dux (HB, LF) and "king". (Could compare Aurelius Ursicinus of Hoxne Hoard?)
Some scholars think that the DEB of Gildas seems to imply that Ambrosius was the leader of the battle of Badon (while the HB of Nennius has Arthur).
"Their names and acts are recorded in a book which Gildas wrote concerning the victory of Aurelius Ambrosius...." (HRB.)
The HB possibly hints that Badon/Guinnion of Arthur is linked with Gwalop of Ambrosius. The 44 yrs of the DEB might be connected with the figures connected with Ambrosius/Gwalop:
5658 + 373 + 28 + 12 (HB); 5658 + 373 + 28 + 4 = 400 + 69 (HB).
Badon of AC = Guinnion of HB which possibly may link with Guitolinus?
Compare: Cunedda & 12 sons came and fought against the Gwyddyl; battle at Serigi Wyddel / Cerrig y Gwyddyl y Mon in succeeding generation; men/tribe of Cadwallon Lawhir sustained the attack of Serigi Wyddel, who Cadwallon slew with his own hand.
[Guethelin & Aldroean? Or, a previous considered possibility is that Arthur vs Gildas/Caw might be linked with Ambrosius vs Guitolinus?]
Ambrosius' battle Catgwaloph/Gwoloppum may possibly link with Guallauc/Gwallawg whose battles seemingly may match Arthur's?
Embres-gueltic may possibly be connected with Gwallawg?
Vortimer might be Gwarth & Amr? Vortimer's 4 battles may really be related to some of Arthur's battles?
Ambrosius ~ Morien/Murdyn/Murtrin = Mynawc/Mynawg/Manawg/Manawc ~ Maun = Patrick ~ Arthur.
Morgan Mwynfawr? (and/or Elidyr Mwynfawr?)
"progeny of Morial" ~ progeny of Ambrosius/Aurelius (DEB)?
Maybe compare Muirchertach Mor &/or Fergus Mor, who have both been linked with Arthur? Arthwys son of Mavricus/Meurig/Mor/Mar of "Gwent"? (Meirig.) Cunomorus/Mark? Menw son of Teirgwaed? Morfawr? Maucanu?
Amblaud/Amlawd father of Igraine? Amorrhaeans (DEB)? Amrbons (HRB)? (Armorican Britain?) Eormenric father of "Ethelbert" (ASC)?
Arthur has close connection with Urien(s) whose name might link with Aurelius?
[Breton traditions have Paul/Pol Aurelian of Leon.]
Ambrosia means immortal [nectar food of the gods]. Arthur's "once & future king" "messianic return"? Holy Grail?
Merlin (or David) "harped and sang the stonehenge into place". Mordred's "magic song made Plinlimmon bow...." [Llacheu "marvellous in songs" might link with Lailoken? the harper builder of St Martin church in Hwiterne?]
The "two brothers Ambrosius & Uther Pendragon" might be Arthur & Merlin? (Llygatrud Emys?)

King Tuduvallus / St Tudwal Tudglyd/Tudelyd / Tuathal? / Tutagual? [&/or Tudvwlch Hir / Tudfwlch Cor(n)eu?] :
Tudvwlch Hir is "destroyer forts" which fits our Saxon Shore placement of Arthurs battle sites.
Tuduvallus could possibly combine names of count Theodosius (the "brown bear") & Valentinian? It may possibly connected with name Gwallawg?
Tuduvallus is the king in St Ninnian story, and Ninnian (who was at St Martin's Hwiterne "white house" of the "Southern Picts") might link with Nennius. Arthur was a "king"?
[Morgan Tud? Tewdrig? Dutigirn? Tewdwr/Tudor? Dyfnwal Hen? Dumnuallaun? Teudubric?]

Cadwallon/Caswallon LawHir:
Compare Cadwallon vs Wyddel, with Ambrosius vs Guitolinus.
Cadwallon "drove the Irish out of Anglesey [Mon]"; Arthur drove Saxons out of Britain at Clarence.
LawHir "long/tall hand/arm" might link with Gavael-vawr "great grasp" (PG)? Maybe compare Argoel/Aircol LawHir? (Though compare the nickname of Osla Gyllell-vawr "big-knife", and the surname of Caradoc Freichfras "strong/stout arm".) Possibly also might link with Gwyddno Garanhir "long/tall/crane shanks/legs/crane" or "stalking person"?
The name Cadwallon might connect with Cat-gwalop of Ambrosius (HB), Catguallaun, and/or Gwallawg (Taliesin), and/or with Excalibur/Caliburn?
Cad- might relate to cat "battle" and Arthur's 12 battles? or the name might mean similar to dux bellorum?
It seems possible confirmation in that Cadwallo is mentioned by Grey's poem bard.
The cloak of Caswallawn?
Caswallon crossed over to Gaul/France in the triads (though this may be the one of Caesar's time)?
The later Cadwallon (the 2nd) or Cadwaladr seems to have been a 2nd Arthur.
The red dragon flag of Wales has been attributed to Cadwaladr son of Cadwallon 2. ("Great victory of Arthur on St David's day" 540 or 633/640?)
The 43/44 yrs of Gildas might link with Cadwallon's "443 ad" date?
Arthur is linked with Padarn (& Patrick); Cadwallon was a great great grandson of a Padarn.
Arthur's father Uther may link with Cadwallon's father Yrth?
146 yrs Cunedda to Maelgwn may include 128 yrs Vortigern/Hengist to Arthur/Badon of Hergest?
2 sons of Maelgwn might match 2 sons of Mordred?
"Although Arthur is given sons in both early and late Arthurian tales, he is rarely granted significant further generations of descendants.... Later literature has expanded Arthur's family further...."
Cadwaladr went to Alan recalls Arthur went to Avalon?
Cadwaladr went to Rome recalls Ambrosius from Roman parents, Patrick from Rome, Arthur beat Roman emperor/general, and City of the Legion called second Rome (and Thanet's name similar).

Cunedda Wledig:
Arthur is linked with St Padarn; Cunedda is grandson of a Padarn.
Cunedda's mother was Gwawl. Gwallawg's battles match Arthur's.
Gwledig may have links with Gwallawg and/or Cat-gwalop?
The name Cunedda/Gwynedd might link with the bear Cuneglas (DEB)? or with Kentigern/Cyndeyrn (Garthwys) who may be Arthur? or Count (of Saxon Shore)? or Conchessa mother of St Patrick? or Conan Meriadoc?
Taliesin was found by son of king of Gwynedd.
The are possible connections of Gwynedd/Cunedda (& Snowdon) and Guinnion, and/or Kent?
Compare Cunedda vs Gwyddyl, with Ambrosius vs Guitolinus.
Manau Gustodin/Gododdin of Cunedda is same as Gododdin of Aneirin which is linked with either Dover (Guinnion of HB & mynydd Eidyn 2 of PG) or Othona (Dubglas of HB & Eidyn 1 of PG) or Yarmouth (Tribruit/Manau 1 of PG). The "narrows of Godalente" may link with Dover or Wantsum-Stour or other? Cad Godeu battle of  trees = Celidon/Celli = Weald. Cunedda &/or Gustodin might link with Constantine (whose cross links with Arthur's cross of Dover)?
Caer-Liwelydd of Cunedda is maybe similar to Kaer-luid-coit of Arthur?
Arthur's 12 battles may link with Cunedda and his 12 children who fought against the Gwyddyl? Compare the 24 sons of Llywarch Hen?
(Compare Badon 44/45 yrs & Cunedda's date "446"?)

Einion Urth / Gwarth Ennian:
Badon may have links with the Halleluyah victory of Germanus (Bede). Badon 44 yrs (Gildas) may link with 40 days/nights Germanus?
Germanus might be connected with St Geminianus of the Modena Archivolt?
Germanus is linked with name Gwarth Ennian. ("Famed Arthur of Gwerthrynion"/Guartherniaun? St Gurthiern or Kentigern? Gorwst Priodawr? Gorwst Letlwm?)
The name Arthur / Wart / Arthwys / Arthgal may be linked with Urth/Gwarth(ur) / Garthwys? The name Arthur may possibly be like a title or position abit like Pendragon is considered to be?
"Saint Germanus of Auxerre was twice styled dux belli by Bede".
(Auxilius companion of St Patrick? Geraint/Wuthgirete could possibly be conneced with Germanus or Gwarth Ennian? (Gartnain / Gartnait?) Or, Erbin could be Einion or Urth? Ebiaun? Or could Gildas Auctor be Germanus of Auxerre [&/or Ghirlandina]? Garbaniaun/Garmonyawn of the Men of the North? Gormant?)
Gwarth Ennian ~ castellum Guinnion/Gurnion ~ castell Gwerthrynyawn?

Gwallawg/Guallauc/Guoillauc/Guilauc/Gwylog/Galluc of Salisbury:
We have written a paper showing that Gwallawg's battles in Taliesin seem to maybe match Arthur's battles of the HB (and of the PG) and our Saxon Shore sites.
The name Gwallawg might have links with : Cat-Gwaloph (battle of Ambrosius in HB), Catguallaun, Embres-gueltic, Wallace (Scotland), Gavael-vawr the porter (of Arthur's battles in PG), Gwaelod, Cetgueli, Gwal/Gual "wall" (Severus, HB), the Gualenses/Welsh & their leader Gualo & queen Guales, Gwawl (Cunedda's mother), Tuduvallus, Durmalt le Galois, Arthgal, Gillapatric, or Rithergabail? The name Arthur may possibly be like a title or position abit like Pendragon is considered to be?
Guoillauc/Gwylog appears on the Pillar of Eliseg. (Eliseg ~ Ely ~ Camelot? 9 yrs ~ 9 battle sites? 11 hundred acres ~ 12 battles?)
[Gwalchmai/Walwen of Walweitha/"Galloway"?]

Urien(s) (of) Gore/Rheged/Bath/Moray / [Gwrien Morien?] :
Urbgen/Urgennius/Uriens/Urian(us) ~ Aureli(an)us? urbs legion? Yrth?
sons of Urien ~ progeny of Ambrosius?
Urien is also called Glyw Cattraeth which links with Cattraeth of the Gododdin which seems to match Guinnion & Dover? The word traeth can mean "extremity of district, or impregnable strand"! The names of the 10 children of Glywys possibly connected with the 12 battles (9 battle sites) of Arthur? Possibly also compare Glewlwyd the porter in the Pa Gur? (Goleudydd of Culhwch?)
 Some scholars connect Arthur's 11th battle of Agned/(Cat-)Bregion/Regomion with the battle Brewyn of Urien, which latter is also compared with Bretr(e)wyn battle of Gwallawg whose battles seem to correspond with Arthur's. Bre-wyn can just mean "white hill(s)" which could match either Guinnion/Dover or Agned/Bregion/Anderida/Pevensey [or Badon/Adurni/Portchester]? Compare also Berwyn in Snowdon(ia) ("snow hill") in Gwynedd?
It seems possible confirmation in that Urien is mentioned by Grey's poem bard: The "craggy bed" grave of Urien recalls Arthur's grave & Brychan's sepulchre?
Urien's connection with "Rheged" which is supposedly in the north is disputable. Urien(s) is usually of "Gore" and it seems that "Rheged" is mainly modern scholar's identification? There are seeming possible south-east Saxon Shore matches for a Rheged there eg (hill of ) Rhegin/bre Regin/Regentium /Regnes/Regni/Regno/Regnum in Sussex?

Taliesin / Gwion Bach:
Taliesin: Gwion; White Hill; Gwdion; caer Sidin; Gwynedd. Arthur: fort Guinnion; Snowdon.
Taliesin: Ceridwen/"Venus"; Mary Magdalen. Arthur: Mother/Virgin/Mary of Guinnion; Guinevere; Morgana. [Compare: Llywarch Hen & Cyndrwyn?]
Taliesin: 9 months; 3 revolutions; 3 elements. Arthur: 9 (3 x 3) battle sites.
Taliesin: endured hunger. Arthur: fasted 3 days &nights.
Taliesin: Cynvelin. Arthur: Camelot? cynbyn "dog heads"?
Taliesin: Trinity; son of the virgin. Arthur: cross of Christ & Mary.
Taliesin: "It is not known what is my body". Arthur: grave a wonder (not known).
Taliesin: "I have been an agitated seat"; [Cassiopeia?] Arthur: siege perilous?
Taliesin: Ebron vale. Arthur: vale of Avalon; Wedale/Vallis doloris. [Arvon's.]
Taliesin: domestic bard. Arthur: link with Patrick who had been a slave?
Taliesin: Elphin [Elffin ap Gwyddno?] ; Alpha; Alexander; Auster. Arthur: Arthur/arth? Geraint son of Erbin? Peredur son of Elifert/Eliffer/Eleuther? Effader? Ebiaun?
Taliesin: bard; Merddin. Arthur: Merlin.
Taliesin: original country region of Cherubims. Arthur: Excalibur/Caliburn?
Taliesin: Lucifer. Arthur: Logres? Lucan? Lancelot? Lailoken?
Taliesin: circle of Gwion/Arianrod/Sidin. Arthur: Round Table?
Taliesin: Tetragrammaton; cross-devoting. Arthur: connected with Cruc Mawr.
Taliesin: Eli & Enoch; Gomorra. Arthur: Camelot? Vultures of Ely?
Taliesin: Nimrod's Tower; "Tower of London"? Arthur: Vortigern's tower? in Modena Archivolt? [Dover lighthouse.]
Taliesin: was in the ark. Arthur: Arthur's ship Prydwen? taken to Avalon in boat.
Taliesin: Sodoma. Arthur: Maelgwn sodomy?
Taliesin: Moses; found like baby Moses. Arthur: linked with Patrick who was like Moses?
Taliesin: hean? cauldron of Cyridwen. Arthur: holy grail?
Taliesin: went to court at Caerleon. Arthur: city of the legion. Tristan/Arthur from city of lions/lyonesse?
Taliesin: bought up by Elphin. Arthur: brough up by Merlin/Ector.
Taliesin: Dovey. Arthur: Guinnion/Snowdon is Dover.
Taliesin: lustrous/radiant brow. Arthur: Badon may have been fought by Ambrosius a.k.a. Aurelius "golden, fine, excellent".
Taliesin: battle of trees. Arthur: battle of Celidon/Celli.
Taliesin: battle of Bran vs Math. Arthur: battle of Badon/Guinnion (Arthur vs Saxon leader)?
Taliesin: son of king of Gwynedd. Arthur: was a 'king"; Guinnion.
Taliesin: Ceridwen. Arthur: ship/shield Prydwen.
Taliesin: name Taliesin. Arthurian: Deisi Arthur? "Eliseg/Elisedd throughout 9 (years?) out of the power of the Angles" on the 'Pllar of Eliseg'? (Cf 9 yrs from Aelle 477?) (Gueltic/Wledig?) sons of Liethali? Aneirin? Tristan? Heledd?

Aedan Uradawc / [Adeon?] [compare St Aidan?] :
The name Aedan might be connected with Badon or Eidyn or Padarn or Agned Bregion??
Aedan was at Arthuret/Gwendoleu which (was near Celidon [Weald] and) may match either Guinnion/Dover, Anderida, Camlan/Bedcanford or Richborough?
lia fail ~ holy grail?
(Maybe compare: Aedan son of Mor in ....  Aedan son of Cyngen of Powys?)
Evidences against Arthur being in the North include:
Aedan's dates in AC & ASC etc are possibly after the time Arthur seems to have fluorished? Arthur was before Ida in the HB, but Aedan was after Ida in source(s).
Arthur fought the (West) Saxons who were at the time mainly only in area bound by line from the Wash to the Solent; and he fought "specifically Kentishmen" (Collingwood etc from HB words).
The Welsh sources make it clear that the Scots and Picts and Saxons were the 2 or 3 enemies. Some sources have Arthur fighting Scots & Picts. The "Picts" of a few other late sources could be refering to southern Britons.
Our discovered match of the battles of the HB matching the Saxon Shore forts is very strong and we have like 99 percent no doubts that it is right from all the quality and quantity evidences (including that they all match in numbers and all in order). The HB battles only-best match the SS and not anywhere else. Ours is the only one to match with an attested set of 9 sites (and all in order) and not an artificial grouping.
In orthodox history theory the Britons/Welsh were not separated and limited to Cornwall & Wales & the North until after the battles of Dyrham & "Chester". There are remnant Arthurian traditions in Brittany, Cornwall, Wales, and the North.
Arthurian divides Britain into Loegria/England & Cornwall, Wales/Cambria, and Albania/Scotland/Ogledd/North(umbrians).

Edited by Arthur-Robin - 20-Sep-2017 at 07:37
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2017 at 03:31
8th battle / 5th battle-site castellum/fortlet Guinnion of "(King) Arthur" in the Historia Britonum of Nennius is Dover/Dubris the 6th Saxon Shore fort of the Notita Dignitatum. (5th & 6th battle sites cross switched between different sources. The matching site in the Pa Gur is the 6th one mynydd/mount Eidyn.)
This following is a list of many possible versions of Guinnion/Dover in many Arthurian sources. It confirms that Dover = Guinnion because we can see stark details evidences that some of them certainly must be or only-best match Dover. (List is most of the ones we have come across but not all, there are still some more not yet included.) Please note it is possible that some may be wrong, but they aren't all wrong. Please also note that ones in different places are only later analogous mirror memory namesakes of the earlier original battle site in Kent. Though some sources places are wrongly considered to be in other places but they are wrong opinions (eg the Wonders are not in Wales etc but really in the Saxon Shore), and these are indicated by double quote marks / speech marks.
Note that some scholars correspond Badon of the AC with Guinnion of the HB.
(Format: the source's name then the candidate Guinnion/Dover matches from in the source.)

Before giving the list of Dover/Guinnion candidates it is necessary to remind people that the core discovery was that 8 of the 9 battle sites of Arthur in the HB of Nennius match 8 of the 9 Saxon Shore forts of the ND for certain because the names/meanings and details/geographies and numbers/order match. Further more the Wonders of Britain also seem to match the same sites or area as well, confirming the match. The 9 battles of the Pa Gur also seem to match the 9 HB & 9 SS/ND sites too. Some other sets/groups/lists of entities in this list below also seem to maybe match too:

1/2/3/4 martyrs Diocletian persecution (DEB/HRB)
3 prisons Gwen Pendragon; 3 Guineveres.
3 several battles (HRB)
3 frivilous battles (Triads)
3 renowned cities
3 churches Padarn; 3 solemnities Padarn
3 vultures of Ely?
3/4 cities 577 (ASC)
4 battles Vortimer?
4/5 cities 571 (ASC)
[6/10/11] Modena Archivolt?
7 (5 & 2) saints lives that mention Arthur?
"7"/9 battles of Arthur (PaGur)
7 servants of the Porter
7/9 saints/sites Breton/Brittany
8 Labours of Turein/Turenn
9 (3 x 3) battle sites / 12 (3 x 4) battles of Arthur (HB/Nennius)
9 Saxon Shore forts (ND)
7/9 Emperors (HB)
9 porters/watchdogs of Ysbaddaden Bencawr;
9 raised from dead by St Patrick
[9/12/14] battles sites of Gwallawg (Taliesin)
9 men of Luthor/Liber son of Art.
10 Glywys (Sts Lives)
11 Consuls (HRB)
12 Monasteries
12 Saxon Shore forts Skegness to Carisbrooke (Map)
12 sons Cunedda; 24 sons Llywarch Hen
12 hides of land Arviragus
Group of 12 poems?
12/20 Men of the North [12th Elidyr Mwynfawr]
13 Wonders of Britain (Nennius)
13 Treasures?
"13/14 battles" Arthur including Camlan (& Arthuret) (Adam Ardrey)
15/[12/24?] children of Brychan.
24 kings / 33 cities?

Now for the Dover/Guinnion matches candidates list:

Actual modern/historical site: Dover (at this site there are also all these places/names: Dour, St Mary the Virgin, St Mary in Castro ("may date as early as 600 ad"), St Martin le Grand, Braddon/Bredenstone, Drop Redoubt, Edinburgh Hill, Colton, Albion, W & E Heights, North Downs, Harold's Earthwork, Langdon Bay, near-by to the Weald, and it is not-far-from a Snowdown). [Dover from Dour "water", or possibly deur "brave"? and possibly conneced with 'de ira' "from the wrath"?]

Pa Halgan / Kentish Royal Legend / Life of Mildred:
Martinus, Doferum. (Eafe?)

Notita Dignitatum, 9 Saxon Shore forts: portus Dubris/Dover (milites Tungrecani, 2nd/6th of 9).

Peutinger: Dubris.

Arthur's battles, Historia Britonum/Nennius:
castellum/fort(let) Guinnion/Gurnion/Guindoin/*Alborum "white, sacred, pure, blessed" (5th/8th of 9/12). "Arthur was fighting Kentishmen" (Collingwood).

HB/Nennius: Columcille "dove"? Bridget? Guitolinus vs Ambrosius, Cat-Gwaloph? Gwarth Ennian (Germanus)? Guenedota/Cunedda? Manau Gustodin? Deur/Deira? DynGuoaroy/Guyaroi / DynguaythGuarth 547? Caesar vs Dolobellus?

HB 33 cities: Cairguent? Cairdauri/Cairdaun? Cair-guin-truis? Cairmerdin? Caircusteint? Cairguorthegern? Cairceint?

HB 9 Emperors: Constantine (5th)?

13 Wonders of Britain / Nennius: Sealess Shore? DuoRig Habren? Glen Ailbe? Wind Hole/Cave in "Gwent"? Cabal's Cairn? Brebic's stone (in a) cataract? Mauchline's quern? Undersea birds? Circling Rock/Mountain? [Pictish Palace?]

Irish: "Irish records preserve the notion that the Battle of Guindoin was within the Caledonian Forest".

Irish Annals: Finnabair 527/535?

Pa Gur: Mynydd Eidyn (cynbyn, 6th of 9, mynydd = "bald head"). [Cf eidunet "desire"?]
"What man is the Porter" may link with the Saxon Shore forts.

Y Gododdin/Aneirin: (drinking at) Din Eidyn / Cattraeth/Raith 538/596/598/600/638 (traeth can mean "extremity of a district")?
Gwyn Dragon [may be (Gwen) Pendragon?]
Gwenabwy son of Gwen (12th)? Bradwen? Gwenwawd?

DEB/Gildas: obsessio/siege of mons Badon(icus)/Bath-hill?

Tysilio: Badon near "Winchester"?

2/3/4 Martyrs 283/304 (DEB/HRB) : St Alban('s)/Verulam/Uerolamiensem? Amphibalus of "Winchester"?

Annales Cambriae/Welsh Annals: Brigit 454/521? Badon 516? Columba "dove" 521/562/595? "Camlan" plague 537? Maelgwn 547? Arthuret/Gwendoleu 573? Dyfrig/Dubricius & Kentigern 612?

Welsh Triads: castell Gwerthrynyawn? Celliwig? Arthuret (2nd of 3)?

Anglo-Saxon Chronicle candidates include : Martin 444? Andredescester? no gains gap 519-552? Wight/Wihtgar/Wihtgaras-burh 514/530/534/544? Cerdic dies 534? calends of Martii 538? St Martin's Hwiterne "white house" 560? Wibbandune 568? Egonesham/Ignesham 571? Dyrham 577? Wodensbeorg 592? St Mary, Kent 694?
[Note: Wight may be from either "white" or vectis "lever" or gwaith "work, time, division", all of which fit Dover/Downs as well as the Isle of Wight / Solent.]

Ethelwerd: lofty tower founded on honour of Mary in "Winchester" 908 (analogous)? Brunandune 938 (analogous name & date)? sign of cross in heavens 773 (analogous event)?

583/584/586 (source?) : CairGuiragon/Wigracester/"Chester" / "white town / town of white stone in green woodland"?

Gwallawg's battles, Taliesin: Arddunion "fortress height" (6th)? (Eidyn?) (Gwensteri? Bretrewyn?)

Urien's battles, Taliesin [575] : Ulph? "ford" of Alclud? Affair at head of wood? Brewyn? Gwenystrad?

Taliesin: Dubriactus? castle of Maria? Badon "chief giver of feasts"?

Hanes Taliesin: White Hill? Ceridwen? battle of Bran vs Math?

Dialogue of Gwydno & Gwyn &/or Iolo Manuscript &/or Hanes Taliesin :
fortress/Caer Wyddno (sunken, protected from sea by floodgates, in Gwaelod) of Gwyddno Garanhir 520-580?

Modena Archivolt: the "tower/castle" [looks like Dover lighthouse] & Winlogee/Guinevere (middle)? Burmaltus? Mardoc? Galvariun?

7 servants of the porter: Gwrdnei cats eyes (5th of 7)?

15 children of Brychan: St Wenn/Wenna (7th)? Dyfrig? Iona "dove"? Morewenna/Morwenstow? Merewenne? Berwyn?

Saints Lives: Do(c)guinnus / Llanddyfrwyr? Guinnius?
St Guenole? Guedian? Guenhael?

3 churches of Padarn: last / great? or middle / again's cross?
3 solemnities of Padarn: calends of May?

Glywys (Saints Lives) : Gwrhai/Gurai/Gurinid (6th of 10)? or Gwynlliw/Gwynllyw (1st)?

Malory: great white palace of white marble at Camelot at "Winchester"?
 Holy Grail 454?

HRB/Geoffrey of Monmouth: St Dubricius / Bath-hill/Badon/Solsbury 470. Gwenwisa/Genuissa? Guiderius? Albani/AltClut/"Dumbarton"? Albanact? Carmarthen/Merlin? Tintagel Castle? Guendoloena? Helena / Michael's Mount? "3 several battles"? Dorobellum? Estrildis white skin?
"Jupiter, Mercury, and Diana" of Brutus may link with the Trinity of Arthur of Guinnion/Badon?

HRB/Prophecy of Merlin: earth shall swallow Guintonhi/Winchester.

HRB 11 Consuls: Cursalem/Kaicester (6th of 11)?

Breton (analogy) : St Anne (mother of Mary)? [Queen Darerca?]
Gwenedeg/Vannes (one of the 7/9 saints/sites)? Samson of Dol? Tudwal?
St Mary of Lanleff / castellum Audroeni / Guingampum.
French/Gallic (Stephen de Bourbon) (analogy) : St Guinefort (cynocephali)?
Arthur's Hill? Mont St Michel?
St Albinus of Angers [near Mt Dol/Deols] 550?
Huelgoat (analogy): Castle of Morgane? Arthur's Castle?

Galicia (analogy): Santa Maria de Bretona ca 569. Tower of Hercules?

Tristan (& Yseut) : Essyllt Winwen? castle Dore? [castle of Windsor? castle of Snowdon?] "Stirling"?

12 Monasteries: Glasgwin (6th of 12)?

Descent of Men of the (Old) North: Gwendoleu (6th of 12/20)? Dyfynwal?

Liber Floridus/St Omer: "Pictish Palace"?

Welsh/Shakespeare: great victory of Arthur against Saxons on St David's (birth)day 540 or 640? [field of Leeks 633/640?]

Welsh (analogy) : Mari Lwyd. castell Cragwynion (Cardiganshire)? Cae(au) Gwynion (Rador/Flint / Denbighshire/Montgomeryshire/Glamorganshire); Carreg/Cerrig Gwynion (Denbigh / Carnarfonshire/Merionethshire); Tyddin Gwynion (Merioneth); Gwynion (near Mallwyd, 1603). White Castle near Abergavenny. Dubricus of Aber-gavenny? Clogwyn Du'r Arddu "high/height" / Berwyn / Snowdon "snow hill". Aberystwyth Castle?

Stories of the Grail: the White Castle in the White Town? Grail Castle (454)?

Scottish (analogy) : Arthur's Seat / Ard-na-Said "height of the arrows", Edinburgh?
Dumbarton "fortress of Britain/Britons" / AltClut?
Athelstaneford 836 (analogous cross & date)?
Drum Alban / Dorsum Albion?
Culdee/Fife (analogy) : St Mary on the Rock.
Skye (analogy) : Castle Ewen?

Cornish/Devonian (analogy) : St Michael's Mount ("the grey/hoar rock in the woodland", "a shrine dedicated to the virgin Mary")? Tintagel Castle (analogous)? Caer Guidn, Land's End?
St Gwinnodock? St Gwinear? St Winwaloe? St Materiana/Madryn of Gwent?

Scilly/Lyonesse (analogy) : Hoary Rock in the Wood? St Martin's (Scilly)? The Mount? St Mary's?

3 renowned cities / Beroul: castle of Isneldone/Snowdon "snow hill"?

William of Worcester: castle of "Stirling" [Snowdon]?

Ywenec: "Caerwent"? ("Doglas"?)

Vulgate cycle: "fortress on a lofty Saxon Rock in region of [fine hunting grounds of] Arestal nearby narrows of Godalente"?

source: Galafort (sign of cross) and Celidoine.

source: "2nd battle King Arthur smashes the Saxons at Clarence / great victory drives saxons out of England".

'24 kings & 33 cities', &/or HRB : Darian Las? Aeneas Yswwydwyn "White Shield"? Marsia/Martia & caer Baris "Dorchester" "by the sea"? Castell y Morwynion / mynydd Tristydd? Gwenwisa/Genuissa daughter of Caesar/Claudius? "Jerusalem"? Dyvan & Fagan? Badon/Avon?

8 labours of Turein/Turenn: two steeds Dobar (Sigar/"Sicily", 4th of 8)?

"Richard of Cirencester": St Patrick & Brigit at Dunum/Down?
Clodius Albinus?

Bran/Brennus story : Y-Bryn-Gwyn / Gwyn-fryn "white hill/tower" supposedly the "Tower of London" but "facing France"?

source: Lofty wood clad rock dinas Emrys / vast insulated rock dinas Emrys?
Vortigern's tower / citadel / fortified city at Mt Erir / Heremus Mtns "eagle rocks" [in Snowdonia] in Guenet/Guined (HB, HRB)?
Cair Guorthe(r)girn/Guorthirgin of Guunessi / castell Gwerthrynyawn / castle of Gurthrenion, beside the Wye, or on the Towy in Dimetae, or in Gueneri/Genoreu in Mt Cloarius on the Gania in Hergin (HB, Triads, HRB)? [or Guasmoric?]

Gervase of Tilbury: Arthur buried at "Mt Etna".
[Avalon located in "Sicily".]
[Morgana le Faye related to "Mt Etna" &/or "Strait of Messina".]

Culhwch & Olwen: Olwen "white thorn"? Arthur vs giant Ysbaddaden?
C&O boar hunt: Whitland? Gwendraeth? Dyffryn "valley"? gwelle(i)u?

13 Treasures: Clydno Eidyn (5th)? Dyrnwyn/white (1st)? Badarn (9th)? Gwenddolau (12th)?

Boece: "Dunbar" (fort)?

Landavensis: St Dubricius. 'Guentonia urbs' / 'urbs Guenti' / "Caerwent"?

Ninnian sources: son Wyn? the Book of Hours of the Virgin? St Martin church at Hwiterne "white house" ("Galloway")? the ("small") stone (or "wooden") church "sitiuated on the shore"? Whithorn Crozier?

Harleian: Teudubric (Glywysing)? Dubr Duiu / Tebi?

Winchester Round Table: "Winchester"?

Some suppose: Arthur sleeps under Craig Y Dinas (Dyffryn Ardudwy / Ystradfellte) where Blodeuwedd was buried?

Legend: Albion 44 yrs?

EH/Bede: Albinus 709? Baddesdown-hill/Badon/Bath-hill? Halleluyah victory (Germanus)?

Camden’s Bannesdown/Lansdown.
[Baddesdown/Bannesdown/Lansdown can match either/both of Portsdown Hill/South Downs/Langstone at 9th battle site Portchester/Adurni/Badon (1), and/or Braddon/North Downs/Langdon/Bran at 5th/6th battlesite Dover/Guinnion/Badon (2).]

Wynn's Baanesdown.

Polyolbion/Drayton: Albion/Ialebion was [from Alban] the first christian martyr in Britain?

Blyton: Gawain(e) died/buried at Dover.

Brynjulfson: "southern one-quarter of the island".
between northeast (Celidon) & southwest (Badon).
in an area the Saxons had reached by 516.
was fought against Saxons. southern part of the island.

Charles P. : Arthur's battles were "in Kent and the East Midlands, perhaps as far north as Lincolnshire".

GYAM: West Saxons ranged from Great Yarmouth to Portsmouth.

Sayles: West Saxons ranged from Wash to Solent.

[Prof Fields reviewer : Arthur's battles "were up & down the East coast".]


Appended list of acknowledgements/credits/sources/references for this article:

Damien/Damo Bullen (damowords blog & Arthurnet posts);
Graham/Graeme Aspin (correspondence, & his theelf29 website);
Caleb Howells / "Calebxy" (on Historum, and in facebook Arthur group)
Chris(topher) Gwinn's website & Arthurnet posts.
WG Collingwood
Mary Jones website resources
Arthurnet posters
Historum posters
Charles Evans-Gunther (on Arthurnet, and in facebook K Arthur group)
Zoetropo (Historum posts)
Leon Mintz's paper (via Arthurnet)
Peter Graham (Historum discussions even though they were unfairly antagonistic)
Simon Stirling
JC Cooper / Brewer's
Karen Han
Judy Shoaf
Charles P... (historum post).
Jacqueta Hawkes
Andy Evans (Wonders of Britain website articles, & correspondence).
Dan/August Hunt 'from Glein to Camlan'.
Edwin Hustwit (correspondence via
Arthurian Infopedia.
New Popular Edition Maps (
Google Earth maps.
[Wilson & Blackett?]
[Baigent/Lincoln/Leigh 'Messianic Legacy'.]
[Hancock forum Druids thread/topic.]

Edited by Arthur-Robin - 20-Sep-2017 at 02:38
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2017 at 08:10
La(u)ncelo(e)t possible origin candidates list (copy of facebook post) :

Luculleas/Lucullus lieutenant of Domitian ("Richard of Cirencester");
L'Ancelot "servant" [angel?]; Lancelin;
Augusel/Anguselaus (HRB); Auxilius companion of St Patrick (HB);
The unnamed knight of the Modena Archivolt?
Lanfranco (Modenna Archivolt);
spear of Longinus;
Laurentius of Canterbury; antipope Laurentius; St Lawrence/Laurence (grail); S Lorenzo le Mura (pope Pelagius 2); Basilica of San Lorenzo Fuorile Mura Rome;
Lailoken; Llacheu/Loholt; Licat/Llygad Am(i)r/Anir (Wonders);
Lucifer (Hanes Taliesin);
lance of Lugh; sword of Nudd;
Lugh Lamhfhada "long-hand" [LawHir?] ;
Loki; Lugh Lonbemnech; Lamhcalad;
Llenlleog/Llenlleawg (C&O, Loomis); Lleenawg (Taliesin);
Llwych Lleminawc/Llawwynnauc [wyanawc "windy/furious/striking hand"? Loch Lumonoy? Loch Lien? Llyn Liuan?];
Teon of Lochlyn (Hanes Taliesin);
Lyncalidor ("Richard of Cirencester");
Natanleod / NawCantLliwed;
Nanteos Cup?
Wlencing (South Saxon, ASC)?
"mother of the lance" (Y Gododdin)
Rheiddyn "lance" (Y Gododdin).
lance/spear Rhun [son of Urien/Maelgwn] (HRB)
llan "saint"; Landrindod (Wales);

The last part of his name might be linked with Camelot, or coit / Caledo(n) "hard" and Carrado of the Dolorous Tower (Modena Archivolt), or Ceoil (Wonders), or Lot?

Llawwynnauc"striking hand" recalls Cadwallon LawHir "long arm/hand", Gavaelvawr "great grasp" (PaGur), Peredur "Long-shaft", Gwyddno Garanhir "long shanks"? (Caradoc Freichfras "strong/stout arm"? Osla Gyllell-vawr "big-knife"?)

Guinevere is apparently linked with (Mary of) Guinnion [Dover] as seen in the Modena Archivolt.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2017 at 07:41
The 9th battle of Badon of Arthur of the HB of Nennius was at Adurni/Portchester (or Clausentum/Bitterne) near Southampton. But the battle of Badon of some other sources may be the 5th/8th battle of Guinnion of the HB which was at Dover. Someone on facebook disputes that Badon could connected with Braddon at Dover. So we have been collating evidences to more starkly prove our match theory.

Before we give the Badon evidence(s) first we will just post a bit on the linguistics of Guinnion, since these people keep lyingly claiming that our 9 battle sites matches supposedly have been disproven by them linguistically etc.

The proposed etymologies for the name (Castellum/*dunon/lesc/fort(let)) Guinnion/Guynon/Guindoin/Gurnion/*Alborum have included from:
guin(n)/gwyn(n)/gwen/finn "white, fair, blond, bright, brilliant, pure, blessed(ness), holy, sacred";
vind-o "clear/white";
ion/iog/guic "standard place name ending";
"white fort";
*vindiones "(the) white(ned) people/ones";
bin/*vino- "wine/vine"?
venta "place"/"a plain".

Anyone can see that the Alborum and the "white" only-best match Dover (Albion). We have further shown in our 12 battles ebook and in this thread (above) that the names/places of Guinnion & Dover are connected with each other in a number of sources.

Now the Badon & Dover/Guinnion piece: Evidences for Badon matching Dover [Guinnion] include:

- Scholars compare Badon of the AC with Guinnion of the HB. Guinnion certainly matches Dover/Dubris (see our separate chapter on this battle site). (The 9 emperors list confirms?)
"the Welsh in Tysilio place it [Badon] near Winchester..."? Guintonhi/"Winchester" may match Guinnion & Dover.
- Badon was a "siege" in Gildas & HRB. This may link with "fort(let)" Guinnion?
[Arthur's Seat in Edinburgh may be analogous to Dover/Guinnion, though the name is said to have originally been Ard-na-Said?]

- Badon is associated with Dubricius of Legions in the HRB, and Dubricius surely matches either Dubris/Dover or Durovernum/Canterbury or Durobrivae/Rochester, while the city of the Legion was Richborough/Rutupiae.

- The name Badon(i(cu)s) and it being a "mount/hill" matches Braddon at Dover, quote the "lost village of Braddon within Drop Redoubt on Dover Western Heights", "the ancient name of Braddon", "I would suspect that Bradden would more likely be on the highest point of the hill", though someone claims that they can't be connected (but in my opinion this is only orthodox scholarly theory and is not definite).
[Badon is Bladud/Baldud in the HRB. Ysbaddaden of Culhwch & Olwen is surely Badon? If "Badon/Avon" &/or Avalon has a link with  Abaddon/Apollyon then this may possibly support the correspondence? Tradition links Badon with Bardon of Leicester. The original Dum-barton "fortress of the Britons / Britain" was Dover/Guinnion. Santa Maria de Bretona has similarities with Dover & Guinnion. Badarn in 13 Treasures? Bath is pronounced "Barth"? Baden "baths" in Germany?]
("Mount/hill" matches that at Dover are all of these : cliffs, (North) Downs, (W & E) Heights, (Edinburgh) Hill.)

- The name "Bath-hill" maybe matches that there was a "Bath House Area" at Dubris/Dover in archaeological maps?

- The alternative version of the name of Badon of Baddesdown-hill in EH of Bede (and Bannesdown/Lansdown of Camden, and Baanesdown of Wynn) might link with North Downs?
(Not sure if Camden's Lansdown could link with Langdon Bay at Dover? Also not sure if Badon/Baanesdown could link with Bran who has links with Dover? The battle of Bran vs Math of Hanes Taliesin?)

- Some sources imply that Arthur drove the Saxons out of England/Britain at the battle of Badon or Guinnion or Clarence. This fits a (Saxon) Shore location, and fits Dover as the one major entrance/exit point of Britain as the closet shortest crossing point for travelers between Britain and mainland Europe.

- The Modena Archivolt surely must depict either Badon and/or Guinnion. The "tower" or "castle" in the Archivolt picture looks alot like Dover lighthouse and maybe matches the castellum/fort(let) of Guinnion, while the name Winlogee/Guinevere in the Archivolt matches Guinnion (and white Dover). Scholars compare Badon of the AC with Guinnion of the HB.

- Arthur fought the "Saxons" (HB, HRB) & "Kentishmen" (HB, Collingwood). The Saxons were mainly only in the South-East quarter at the estimated date of Badon (refs Sayles, Brynjulfson, Evans, Jackson, etc) [the area that Charles tried to make me out as being bad for believing that the battles were there and not elsewhere].

- If Badon/Baldud/Bladud possibly has a link with name Balduph and the word "bald" then this may also match Dover. (Mynydd Eidyn of Pa Gur matches Guinnion and Dover. The word "Mynydd" can mean bald head.)

- Badon/Bath is close to "Albania" & "AltClut" in the HRB. "Albania" is really the Downs & Dover/Albion.
* (Caer) Alt Clut means ail "(a) rock", or "a height/cliff", or "white", or "a house site", or "fort", + "river Clyde", or "Caledon".
Albani(a) matches *Alborum (Guinnion) can only be either Albion (Dover), or St Alban's (Verulam), or Alba/Alban/Albani(a)/Albany/Alpin(e) (Scotland).
Arthur wore Dragon at Badon. Compare Gwen Pendragon?

- There is seeming evidence that St Martin le Grand of Dover is connected with Arthur's battle(s) (esp Guinnion / Badon).


I just want to add that these people who keep lying that our sites don't match linguistically etc constantly evade/ignore/dismiss stark evidences/proofs that we have posted. For example the 'Cruc Mawr' of the Wonders of Britain surely only-best matches the "large cruciform platform" or quadrfrons at Richborough/Rutupi [the city of the legion]. They may try to claim that cruc can't mean cross but can only mean tumulus, but the evidences are stark that cruc mawr matches the large cross at Richborough, and sources do imply confirmation that cruc(is) can mean cross.
Cruc/crug/crocea mawr/more/mors can mean either:
"great/big hill(ock)/heap/tumulus/mound"
"great/big/huge cross/crux/crucis/crucifix/crutch"
"great crooked"
or "yellow death" (according to the HRB of Geoff of Monmouth)
and it certainly matches
the "large cruciform platform" quadrifrons at Richborough/Rutupi [city of the legion]
and matches Crocea Mors "Caesar's sword" (Caesar was near Dover/Deal/Richborough).
Though some tried to dismiss it by saying a variant version has Cruc Marc instead, which we haven't yet completely answered, but this is only one alternative tradition and is a very weak counter claim. We have also showed that all 9 of Arthur's battle sites match the Saxon Shore sites, and other Wonders of Britain also match the sites. To me we have stark evidences but they keep evading it for some covert reason.

Edited by Arthur-Robin - 27-Sep-2017 at 07:47
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2018 at 09:25

A new attempt to better write the 9 battle sites evidences.

1st battle site Glein.

Arthur's first battle site is called 'ostium fluminis ... Glein/Gleni' "mouth of the river Glein/Gleni" (1st site in a set of 9 matching sites).

This matches Gariannonum / Burgh, Great Yarmouth in Norfolk (1st site in a set of 9 matching sites) which is called 'Garien(n)i fluvii ostia' / 'ost. Gariennus flumen' / 'Gariannus (fluvius)' / 'Gar[ienno]' / 'Garianno' "the mouth of the Garienus" / "(river) Gariannus" in Ptolemy, and in the Ravenna cosmography, (and in the Notita Dignitatum.)

People can see that our site has match with all 3 words of the name (ostium/mouth, fluminis/river, and Glein/Gleni), and also that both match in numbers/order (both are "1st" of set of 9 sites that all match all in order). The first 2 words are indisputably the exact same words. Only the 3rd word is disputed by arch-critics, but everyone can see that the names are very similar/close.

It is true that one of the two rival orthodox location candidates (one in Northumberland, and one in Lincoln) was also called 'fluvius Gleni', which has two words the same, but it doesn't have all 3 words all the same like ours does. One of their 2 candidates is said to not have any (river) mouth. Their river's name is recorded as Gefrin/Glen/Glene (Adgefrin/Yeavering/Glendale) which is not necessarily so close to Glein as supposed, and which also shows that our candidate is not necessarily so different as they assert. Their site is also not 1st in a set of 9 sites that all match in order like ours.

This map shows the 9 battle sites of "(King) Arthur" matches with the 9 Saxon Shore sites. You can see that all 9 battle sites (or 12 battles) all match all in order from north-east to south-west.

Our site is described in some sources as "Burgh Castle near the mouth of the river Yare", which corresponds with "the mouth of the river Glein".

The only reason that critics and sceptics refuse to accept our match as (evidently-)possible is because they adamantly claim that the roots of Glein/"Glen" and Garieni are not etymologically according to experts opinions. However the truth is that their expert opinion is not necessarily true like they assert. Firstly there are a few or more possible scenarios, either: (1) We could be wrong and the names/places don't match; (2) The orthodox critics could be wrong that the names are not related; (3) Nennius could have conflated or punned similar names; or (4) there is some other match for the name Glein in our sites area; or (5) only the meaning of the name matches our site. The first scenario seems unlikely to us because the evidences seem pretty quality and quantity that each and all 9 sites all match all in order. We will now give some evidences for that the 2 names are either related or conflated/punned.

Firstly as we already said we have all 3 words 'ostium fluminis Glein/Gleni' matching, which surely has some conviction that the match is likely to be right. Secondly as we also already said, the three sources names are very similar. Versions of the 3 names are:
- Glein, Gleni, Gleuy, Glem, Glemu, Gem.
- Garien(n)i, Gariennus, Gariannus, Gar[ienno], Garianno, Garienus, Gariann(on)um, Gernemwa, Yare, Yaremouth.
- Gefrin, Gleni, Glen, Glene, Adgefrin, Yeavering, Glendale.

Glein's name's etymology has been suggested to be from either:
*glan "pure (river), clear, clean [refering to the character of the water], bright, brilliant", "used specifically of rivers",
glain "glass, crystal",
gleno "holy",
ceinion/gleinion "of the saints", or
*glinn/glenn/glen/glyn "a glen, valley, glen of the river, river of the valley, dale, head of the hollar, where a valley butts up against the mountain, usually with a spring", "mountain valley", related to klettr "cliff",
glind "fence, enclosure", glynde/glyndy "glenhouse",
glan "a bank, shore", or
dyn glan "man alive".

Some of the meanings do or may match with our site's area.
I assume that the "clean, clear" water probably matches the water of the river at our site.
There is a glass vessel at Burgh castle.
There is a cliff in the vicinity of our site.
The fort's walls at our site could match "fence, enclosure"?

In the ASC the only likely matches for Glein are either: Celestine 429/430, Aegelesthrep 455, Cerdicsshore 495/514 (which some locate at Great Yarmouth), or Portsmouth 501.
If Glein does match Aegelesthrep/Agaelesthrep/"Aylesford" 455 in the ASC then this might weaken the claimed glen/glan etymology of orthodox experts?
Celestine and Palladius/Patrick 428/429/430 (ASC/AC) is closely linked with Halleluyah Victory of Germanus 429 (EH), and "Moses" in Creta 431 (ASCe).
 The baptism of Patrick/Palladius, and the baptism of Germanus in river Alyn (and the passage and conversions of "Moses") might be analgous with baptism of Paulinus in river Glen, and these might connect with the "clean, saints" meaning of Glein? Germanus is said to have been in a "valley encompassed by hills", and glen can mean "(mountain) valley".

According to scholars own words they "don't know for sure" the original root of Garieni/Gariannonum/Yare.
Garieni/Gariannonum/Yare has actually had more than one conflicting claimed etymology, being variously claimed to be from either *gwar_onnen /*gar/*yar "ash, ridge of the ash tree, ash river", or "shout, babble, babbling (river)", or "rough", or ear "gravel(ly)". (Different sources also contradict in saying Yarmouth/Yare and Gariannonum are either from the same root or two different roots.)

So how can they be so adamantly assertive that the 2 names are definitely unrelated?

Arthur's 1st battle of Glein seemingly may match or correspond with any of these sites in other sources:
- Grynn (1st of the 7 servants of the Porter).
- "Battle of Graine/Granairet/Granard in Leinster 480" (Irish).
- Gefrin (analogous site).

Some of the above names are similar to both Glein/Gleni and Garieni and may form a intermediate bridge between them.

Glein/Gleni surely matches Garieni, but just in case there is any chance that it doesn't then we will also give some other possible name match candidates in our sites area: Peter Glean? Grimes Graves? Iceni/Iclingas? St Giles? I think i saw a Glynde somewhere in the wider area (though i have not yet been able to find it again in searches)?
We may also confirm our location by analogous matches. There seems to be confirmation in other sources that Glein had a plain or fields like our site does:
- Our site has fields all around it.
- The matching 1st battle in Gwallawg's battles in Taliesin is called the "plain of Lleenawg".
- The orthodox location candidate is in "Millfield Plain".
- The ASC candidate match is called "plain of Aegelesthrep" in Ethelwerd.

Supplementary list of some of the hitherto main Glein location candidates:
Lune, Lancs (Anscombe)
Glen, Scotland (Faral)
Ayrshire (Skene)
Glen/Till, Northumberland (Bede, Skene, Anscombe, Ekwall, Lot, Johnstone, Crawford, Jackson).
Great & Little Glen, Leics (Johnstone)
Glen/Welland, Lincs (Johnstone, Jackson)
Great Yarmouth (Bambrough)
Genlada/Wantsum, Reculver (an alternative of our's)
Glynde, Sussex (Collingwood).

Edited by Arthur-Robin - 06-Jun-2018 at 09:07
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2018 at 05:53
Continuing new attempt to rewrite better the 9 battle sites matches evidences. (Mainly just focusing on the names/meanings matches for now since these are the things critics are so narrowly set on.)

2nd battle site Dubglas (Othona/Bradwell).

1st post deals with the Dubglas name/meaning match. 2nd post will deal with the extra Linnuis name/meaning match.

1. The Dubglas name/meaning match with our site:

The name of the 2nd battle site of Arthur in the HB is (the river) 'Dubglas'. Dubglas or Dubglaisi/Duglas/Doglas is related to the names Douglas, Dulais and Dulas and it is generally considered to be from either *duboglassio/*dubgleis "(from the) black/dark stream/water", and/or "*duboglasso- "dark blue, blue black", or dubhglas "blackness", or duoglas, with the individual component elements being dubh/du "black, dark" (like in Dublin "black pool", etc), and glas "woad, green, blue, grey, tawny, green greyish, pale, fresh" (like in Darian Las "blue/green shield", Cruc Glas, Cuneglas, Glastonbury, etc), or glas/glass "(a small) stream", or glas "a common river designation among the Celtic people in Great Britain". (In the case of Glastonbury glas also seems to be confounded/conflated with glass.) It is thought that there is a subtly implied contrast between the 1st and 2nd battle sites Glein "clean/clear" and Dubglas "black/dark".

Our location candidate for the battle site Dubglas (2nd of set of 9 sites) is the Saxon Shore site of Othona/Bradwell near Maldon (2nd in set of 9 sites). In our site's area there is one or more possible good matches for the meaning and maybe the name of Dubglas:

- The river Blackwater is in the area of our site.
In the HB, the Dubglas battle site is described as being "super (aliud) flumen ... Dubglas", or "above / on(-the-brink-of) / east-of river Dubglas".
In Bede and other sources our site Othona is described as "civitas Stancaster (Ithancester) stetit super ripam rivoir de Pante currentis per Maldunum", "locus est sed (etiam) in ripa Pent(a)e amnis", "on the shore/bank(s) of the Pant(e)", "Othona, on the Blackwater, formerly called the Pant".

- In Ptolemy and the Ravenna Cosmography the river Eiduman(n)ia/Eid(o)umani(o)s/Viuidin/Uidumanis/(S)idumani(s) is south-west of (a promontory south of) the Yare &/or Orford Ness, and north-east of the Thames, and it is said that this river Eidumania is either the Blackwater &/or Colne, or the Crouch &/or Roach, or the Stour &/or Orwell. Quite a few experts favour the Blackwater river. The name Eidumania has been suggested by some scholars to contain the element du/dubh "black" or dubno/domun/dufn/dwfn "deep". In the Coligny calendar dumannios is "darkest depths". Dubglas is a flumen "river", like the Eidumanis is a fluvium/fluvii "river".

- Some scholars have said that the name Eidumania is "possibly Latinisation of Widma/Withma/Witham/Withmaney" (eg Ekwall). There is no river Witham in Essex/Suffolk only in Lincoln which can not be Eidumania. There is a town Witham in our river's area. The interesting thing is that the Eidumania (and Witham) in our area may be analogously connected with the "unhealthy looking sluggish, greenish river" Witham in Lincolnshire "peat land" which is the orthodox candidate for the river Dubglas. The  two areas seem to even be compared in modern times eg "Lincolnshire and Essex RBs: River Witham and River Crouch IS" in M.A.F. records? (It is also a remarkable coincidence that there is also a Wyham/Wigan/Wygan at Higden's "Dubglas" site in Lancashire.)

- The Thames river's name is also claimed by some scholars to mean "dark river". (Perhaps compare the Arthurian "region ... between the Tamar & Limar" with the "Thames and Imensa" in our site's area, since Linnuis is also Inniis in some versions?)

- Stakes/pikes in Thames, & "Dolobellus", &/or "Mandubracius" of the Trinovantes, in Caesar's invasion?
- Dubnovellaunus of the Trinovantes, 10-5 bc? (Dubnovellaunus is said to possibly be Dyfnwal Moelmut of post-Roman and medieval British genealogies and legends. Dyfnwal built Caer Odor which possibly resembles Othona? In the HRB Dunwallo is in the 2nd book and he is the 20th king, which resembles Dubglas as the 2nd battle site? His name is related to Donald and Domhnall which is said to mean "world ruler", from dubno "world" and val "rule". One source says vras and glas were possibly confounded/conflated/punned, and the word gawr/vawr/mawr possibly could confirm a v/w/g interchange?)
- Togodumnus of Catuvellauni died after battle on Thames, & losses in marshes of Essex, in Claudius invasion?

- Dub-glas cold possibly be a pun on Divus Claudius of Colchester? (Note Dubglas would correspond to Claudius in the 9 Emperors list in the HB of Nennius.)
- Duroliw in the Peutinger map? (Durolito/Durolitum in Antonine Itinerary.)
- Othona is next to Dubris in the Notita Dignitatum.

- Othona/Ythancester is described as "the town is now submerged" which could possibly match dubno "deep"?

- There is a Dengie/Dengey/Daneseia/Daenningas in our site's area which might possibly be analogously connected with Denis's-brook/Denises-burn(e) & Devilis/Dubglas 633 in Bede which seemingly may correspond with the  Duglas of treaty of Cadwallon & Edwin in the HRB? Perhaps compare Dunglas of Lothian? Dubglas is related to Dawlish, Dowlish, Divelish and Devil's Brook. L and N sometimes interchange in British Celtic. Though it is admittedly doubtful that Dengie could be a corruption of Dubglas because Dengie appears in early records as Danesia/Daenningas and is supposed to be named from the Danes in the Maldon area. Pun of Dub-glas & Dane-geld/Dane-law? Arthurian sometimes confounds Danes and Dacians. Linnuis might be connected with Lochlyn which is supposedly "Denmark" or "Sweden" or "Scandinavia" or "Baltic" and is maybe analogous to the Thames mouth/estuary?
The Dengie Marshes and/or the "numerous lakes, ponds, boggy areas, willow swamp" of the Mid-Essex Coast might correspond with Dubglas "dark, muddy", and with the analogous "marshy lands and pools of the river Witham" orthodox Dubglas site in Lincoln?

We can also support of location by correspondences with analogous namesakes elsewhere. Douglas in the Isle of Man, and the Blackwater in Ireland are also in analogous/similar s.w. coast positions of the islands. (Dublin is maybe also analogous?) The orthodox "Dubglas" candidate in Lincoln is analogous in similarily being in [north-]east coast. Collingwood's candidate 'Le Black' (Kent Water) in the Medway/Dartford/Crayford area of Kent is also analogously in the east coast, and on other side of the Thames estuary opposite our site. "Dunglas formed the southern border of Lothian" might also be analogous to our site in the south, since Lu(n)danbyrig was a name of Othona, and it is also not far from London (compare "Lo(n)donesia" of Lot in Arthurian).

So thus far at the least we have good matches for the number/order "2nd" of set of 9 sites (which all match all in order), the river, the "black" meaning of the name, and the name element dubh. Critics can of course say that we do not necessarily yet also have an indisputable  match for the name element glas (except for the meaning) or for the whole/full name Dubglas (except the meaning), but they can't deny that our site does have some quality and quantity matches for the Dubglas name/meaning.

For the rival orthodox location in Lincoln it is seen that they admit that their location does not have any known Dubglas river name match at all. The only major rivers of Lincoln/Lindsey are the Witham/Lindis/Rhee "whose ancient name is unknown", and the Trent/Trivona. The best they can do is say that the "unhealthy looking sluggish, greenish river" Witham may match the "blue black" or "black stream" meaning of Dubglas. (Though there is also a 'Black (Low?)' place name in the area. There was also a Blaecca at "Lincoln" when Paulinus was there.) Their site is also not 2nd in a set of 9 sites that all match in order. It is also less likely that Arthur was fighting Saxons "before Ida" up Lincoln way. Lindsey/Lincoln is not mentioned in the ASC until after 627/654/678. The only thing their location has over ours is an allegedly stronger Linnuis name match, otherwise our site (& other 8 sites) has more quality and quantity matches.

If by any chance we are possibly wrong about Dubglas matching Othona/Bradwell then it is nevertheless still pretty sure from most sources that Arthur's battle(s) must have been in the south-east quarter of England/Britain, especially the Kent and/or London/Essex areas. The only major candidates for Dubglas/Linnuis in the ASC are Crecganford/London 457, or Mercredsburn(sted) 485. If Vortimer's 4 battles match any of Arthur's 12 battles then the only likely match for Dubglas is Derwent, or "Thanet". (Derwent "white water" is opposite to Dubglas "black water"? "Thanet" is similar to Thancastre and Ythancester?) Other candidates for Dubglas/Linnuis in the south-east quarter include the "dark river" Thames, Darent/Crayford, Dubissum pagus "? in Kent" (recent epigraphical discovery), Le Black (Kent Water in Medway area), the Medway which some suggest might mean "mead-coloured Wye", Duroleuo/Durolaui/Durolevum (Ospringe/Sittingbourne, in Peutinger map, Antonine Itinerary, Ravenna Cosmography).

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2018 at 05:41
Continuing the new attempt to better re-write our 9 battle sites matches evidences.

2nd battle site Dubglas (Othona) continued.

The Linnuis name/meaning match.

The fact that four battles were fought in the same Dubglas site or in the same region Linnuis might fit well with the geographically and/or historically significant Colchester / Thames / London area.

Arthur's 2nd battle site Dubglas is also said in some texts to be "in region Linnuis". Having discussed above the Dubglas name/meaning match with our location candidate's area, we will now look at whether there is any Linnuis name/meaning match.

The most favoured Dubglas/Linnuis location candidate of orthodox expert scholars is in Lincoln, and it is pretty much based only on the one evidence of the linguistically-accepted-as-possible Linnuis name match and does not really have anything much else except that they speculate that the Witham's "muddy/greenish" water might match the "black blue/green" meaning of Dubglas. Lincoln is not the only Lindum place in Roman and/or medieval Britain, there are a few other known ones such as Lynwyssawr (Gododin), Lynn Liuan ("Severn"), Lindisfarne, King's Lynn, Linda/Lenda (Ouse, Bedford), Lindum/Lindinis (Ilchester, Damnoni), Lindum (Drumquhassle), Lindum (Innerleithen?), Linton (on Ouse, a few miles from York?)  So when the orthodox experts only go by only the Linnuis name and nothing much else, then although it might be true that Linnuis can only be one of the places that has a Lindum name, Linnuis could be any of the Lindum places. This demonstrates that we are right to point-out that one must consider all the details of each battle site, not just names matches; and one must consider all the 9 sites as a whole and not just only individual sites by themselves. One must consider all the evidences not just only one or a few things. People can not prove or disprove things by only one or few things (unless the things are definitely concrete proof/disproof). We should consider all possible locations not only one/some. Also one must consider evidences given by others and not only believe the "experts" just because they are supposedly more infallible. The location candidate with the best quality and quantity evidences should be provisionally accepted as being the best one for the present.

Arthur fought Saxons, and at the estimated time of Arthur's battles (between Octa and Ida) the Saxons were mainly only in the area south-east of a line drawn from the Wash to the Solent. Lincoln is abit too far north, and is not very strategic, it was almost an island in Roman times. The main Saxon Shore forts were between Norfolk and Hampshire. There is only one SS fort in Lincolnshire and it is not one of the 9 main ones in the ND.

Before we get into discussing the details of the region Linnuis name/meaning match, the first point we wish to make is that the words "and is in region Linnuis" are not in all manuscripts versions of the 12 battles text but only in "expanded version". The Irish HB for example does not have the extra words. So it is possible that the words were not in the earliest original version and are only a later addition or gloss. (Though there is a risk that i may be wrong here because i don't know the details of all the text manuscripts versions.)
Also, in our own view the Dubglas battle site name is more important than the Linnuis region name. In the 9 battle sites matches it is the battle sites names that match. The region although it is bigger and easier to find is only a vaguer bigger area while the battle site is the smaller pin-point place of interest.
With the orthodox Lincoln candidate it is admitted by experts that there is no known river Dubglas or Black in Lincoln. Keith Matthews cleverly tried to get around this by theorising "why did the author of HB 56 feel that 'in regione Linnuis' was a useful means of defining the location of 'Dubglas'? Surely, because 'Linnuis' was well known to his audience, whilst 'Dubglas' was obscure, not the other way round." However this is not necessarily true because one nevertheless still has to either have a site that matches both the Dubglas and Linnuis names/meanings, or else only match the Dubglas name/meaning and accept that the Linnuis name is the later added name (or else see the two names as two different battles sites). However we will accept that "and is in region Linnuis" was intended as extra information to help one to know/see/find/confirm the battle site's area.

The name '(regione) Linnuis/Linuis/Inniis, which is maybe the same as "Listenoise" in later Arthurian sources, is considered to come from or be related to *Lindensis/*Lindenses/*Lindensia "(the men/inhabitants of) (the region/land/district of) Lindum/Lincoln", with the element -wys in Linnuis being equivalent to the element -enses in Lindenses (and) which always refers to "regions and their inhabitants". From the original place  name Lindon/Lindum came  Lincoln/Lindocolinum "Lindon/Lindum colony", and Lindsey/Lindesia/Lindisia/Lindisse "Lincoln/Lindensia island", plus Lindisfarne "Lindsey travellers/wayfarers" (or ware "dwellers"). Investigating futher we find-out that the name Lindon/Lindum/Lincoln is considered to come from the root word llyn/linn "(a deep) pool, lake, waterfall" (as also seen in Dublin, and which root-word is also used in the Y Gododin in connection with "effusion of blood" and "pools of blood"), which is supported by local geographical descriptions of "the marshy lands and pools of the river" and "... waterways flowing off the muddy peat moors", or else some sources say that the name may be related to lind "lime tree"? Evans also claimed that furthermore Linn is also not used for coastal areas, but this is certainly not true because there are cases where it was used for places near coasts (eg King's Lynn was a port). Thus although it might be true that Linnuis means "inhabitants of region of proper place name Lindum/Lincoln" and must match with a place that has/had a Lindum name, it is nevertheless also true that Linnuis ultimately means "inhabitants of region of pool(s)" and that there will be a match with the meaning unless the name was given for other reasons. (Possibly compare the modern 'Lake District'?) We also know that the Britons/Welsh sometimes had some different places with same names or elements, eg Lindum (Damnoni, Devon) & Lindum (Coritani, Lincoln).

For our battle site Othona/Bradwell/Maldon in Essex we first point-out that there is a very good match of the "(inhabitants of) region of pool(s)" meaning of Linnuis with our location as seen in these quotes about the local area: "Five Lakes near the coastal town of Maldon", "60 acres of beautiful parkland and lakes", "The Mid-Essex Coast Special Protection Area is of International importance as a wetland ..... means over millions of years, resulting in a landscape where lakes or ponds tend ...", "consisting of numerous lakes, ponds, boggy areas, willow swamp, scrub and", "Dengie Marshes". (I'm not sure if the name of the Pant/Pent name of the river Blackwater might also be related to the word pond?)

Higden's Duglas is near Mersee in Lancaster,
Our Dubglas/Linnuis site Othona/Limen/Bradwell is near Mersea in Essex.
("Limnean port" & London & Meresige/Mersey 893/895 in Ethelwerd?)
Mersea means "island of the pool",
Lindsey means linn "pool" + "island".
(In the ASC one of the only few candidates for Dubglas is Mercredsburn(sted) 485?)
Province of Merscwari "inhabitants of Romney, Kent" 796 in Ethelwerd?
Lindsey & Merswarum/Marshlanders & East Anglia 838/839 in Ethelwerd?
Merswarum means "Marshlanders",
Llynwys/Lindenses means "inhabitants of region of pool(s)".

Thus far no one can deny that our site has a very good match for the meaning of Linnuis. However critics refuse to accept that we do have at least a match for the meaning of the name unless we also show an actual match with the Linnuis name as well.

Before we look at some possible name match candidates we need to point out that it is possible that there might only be a meaning match and not be a name match because Nennius might have given the name to the place himself, and we know other examples of poetic names like Rome being called Babylon in the bible, or Linnuis might be a translation or synonym of a Latin or Saxon name, or Nennius could have punned on a similar name like Limen/Limnean. The HB of Nennius certainly has quite a few regions names that are apparently not the same as the areas that the names are more commonly associated with (eg Caledonian, Linnuis, Buelt, Gwent, Ercing, Cereticiaun, etc).

Our site's area does have some possible candidates for a Linnuis name match but we do not yet know for certain if/what the correct name match is.

- Lindsell/Lyndesele/Lindeseles/Lindezel, and Linford in Essex, and Linford road East Tilbury. (Though i am not sure how near or far away they are, or what the believed etymologies of the names are.)
- Lindsey in Suffolk is not far away. (Though it has a different claimed etymology of "Lelli's island".)
Lindsey & Merswarum/Marshlanders & East Anglia 838/839? Lindsey & East Anglia 1016?
- "Cedd travelled south from Lindisfarne" to Ythancester/Essex.
(In Bede there is a church of Peter in Lindisfarne, while at our site there is the church St Peter on the Wall.
Plus, "when the monks fled from Lindisfarne before the Danes" also similar to Danes at Maldon and Dengie near our site?)
- Nicolas of Witham? (In some literature Lincoln & Nicolas are confounded.)
- Durolito/Durolitum "Chigwell, near Romford/Rumford, Greater London?" in the Antonine Itinerary is maybe similar to Lindum? (Durosito in Richard of Cirencester.)

- 'Limen Fortenses' were at Othona SS fort. (Jackson claimed the names can't be related, but perhaps compare the Limeni connected with Norfolk/Iceni? "Limnean port" & London & Meresige/Mersey 893? Limnae a town of the Angles 895 in Ethelwerd? Also compare linn/llyn "pool, lake" and limno "fresh water", limne "lake, marsh", and/or liman "estuary"?)
There is also a Limbourne and Limebrook in the Bradwell/Maldon/Colchester area.
- Imensa river near the Thames? (Compare the Arthurian "region ... betw Tamar & Limar"? "region called Iris/Inn"? Linnuis has variant spelling Inniis.)

- Lu(n)danbyrig was a name of Othona which is possibly similar to Kaerlindcoit/Kaerluidcoit of the HRB which might be linked with Linnuis/Lindenses. (Arthurian "province of Lodonesia"?)
- London's name some think may come from lan "lake".
(In the ASC one of the only few candidates for Dubglas/Linnuis is Crecganford & London 457.)
The Antonine Itinerary has "regno Londinio" which is abit like regio Linnuis? It also has London next to Lincoln as "Londinio Lindo".
("Lidinin the king who ruled all of Great Britain" in Vita Gurthiern?)

- Langford near Maldon. (But this one is unlikely since is supposed to be from Lagheforda.)

We may also lightly support our match by analogous namesakes elsewhere.
The Lindsays in Firth of Forth area are maybe invertedly analogous to our site in the south.
Lincoln and East Anglia-&-Essex are somewhat analogous, both being on the east coast, etc.
King's Lynn in Norfolk near the Wash is maybe analogously on the opposite side of the East Anglia & Essex headland. The pool that is theorised to have been at the mouth of the Ouse where King's Lynn stands is also possibly similar to our Dubglas/Linnuis site Othona/Bradwell standing at the mouth of the river Blackwater/Pant?
Dublin is maybe analogous place in east coast of Ireland?
The "region of Leinster" in Ireland is in analogous place (though it is supposed to have a different etymology)?
As already mentioned earlier, Lochlyn as "Denmark" or "Scandinavia" or "Baltic" may also be analogous to Essex/Suffolk and the Thames mouth/estuary?

(I'm not sure yet if there is or isn't a possibility that the "region of Llynwys/Lindenses" might be in some way connected with the "province of Lidwiccas" of the "sons of Lodwicus" in "Lydaw/Letavia" or "Armorica/Brittany"?)

Possible supporting evidence from Arthurian traditional literature includes:
- "Hengist in Lindesia" (HRB) & "the North from which Octa arrives could be Lindsey". Surely it is less likely that Hengist and Octa of Thanet/Kent would be so far up as Lincoln, and more likely that they were in Essex. "Thancastre" which was supposedly in "Lincoln" according to the HRB is somewhat similar to the Ythancester name of Othona in Bede. (Though Thancastre might actually be Thanet or castellum Guinnion.)
- "Celidon wood might be near Lincoln" (HB, HRB, Thompson). Celidon is the Weald; Dubglas/Linnuis is Othona.
- "Lindocolinum" of Arthurian might not be Lincoln but might possibly be a combination of Linnuis and Colonia/Colchester/Colne?

Supplementary list of some of the main Dubglas/Linnuis location candidates:

Lympne, Kent/Sussex (Collingwood)
Medway as "mead-cloured Wye" (Evans)
Le Black / Kent Water, Kent (Collingwood)
Thames as "dark river" (Evans)
Othona/Bradwell/Blackwater (us, and one or two/few others)
Witham or Ancholm or Trent, Lincoln (Anscombe, Lloyd, Jackson, Peter Graham)
Lindisfarne (Johnstone)
Devil's Water at Linnels on Hadrian's Wall
Dunglas in Lothian (OEC)
Glen Douglas in Lennox near Arrochar portage from Loch Long to Loch L, overlooked by Ben Arthur (Skene, C.)
D(o)uglas near Wigan in Lancashire (Higden, Lot, Anscombe, Faral)
Chester (Anscombe, Faral)
No claims (Crawford, Johnstone).

Remember a site must best match all details given in the source texts including names/meanings, numbers/order, fought Saxons, etc.

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2018 at 08:56

Continuing the attempt to better re-write the 9 sites matches evidences.

3rd battle site Bassas (Reculver).

The 3rd battle site of Arthur in the HB is 'Bassas' which we found seems to match Reculver/Regulbium the 4th/3rd Saxon Shore fort in the ND. Both of these also seem to match Afarnach's hall the 4th/3rd battle of Arthur in the PA Gur.

Number/order match:

Bassas is the 6th of 12 battles or the 3rd of 9 battle sites of Arthur in the HB of Nennius.
Reculver/Regulbium is the 6th or 4th/3rd of 9 Saxon Shore forts/sites in the ND.
Afarnach's hall is the 4th/3rd of 9 battle sites of Arthur in the Pa Gur.

The 1st three battles sites of Arthur are all on rivers, the middle two/three are all settlements, and the last two/three are all hills/mountains. Our set of 9 Saxon Shore sites well matches this with the first 3 sites also all being on rivers, the middle ones all in Kent where settlements feature, and the last 3 all in the South Downs.

Name/meaning match:

The name Bassas/Bassus/Bassa/*Bassass- or Lassus/*Lussas (plural in the Latin, singular in the Irish) has been variously proposed by scholars to be from either:
bas "shallow",
[or bais "ford"?
or bass "mound in the estuary or bed of a river''?
or basse "low"?]
or katabasis "to go down, a ritualised symbolic descent (in)to the underworld/hell, descent from the interior to the coast possibly following the course of a river, the opposite of anabasis"?
[or bass/bathais "forehead" or "basket"?]
or basincge "goat skins"?
or "personal name, Bass's, (of) Bassa('s people), Bassingas",
or Boso/Bosso?
or Bassianus?

Reculver/Regulbium has a number of noticed seemingly-possible good matches for the name and/or meaning of Bassas:

1. The cohors i Baetasiorum was at Regulbium SS fort in the ND. Its name is said to originate from the Baetasii tribe. Also perhaps compare that one of someone's four suggestions for the linguistics of Bassas was bastast/bastass?

2. There is a prominent Reculver inscription from Roman times which majorly features the name/word "Basilica". There was also a basilica in Reculver which is one of "two of its principal buildings".

3. Bass/Bassa/Basse the (mass-)priest at Reculver in 669 in the ASC. This is indisputably cognate with the "personal name Bassa" meaning of Bassas favoured by some.

4. If some of Arthur's 12 battles possibly match Vortimer's 4 battles then Bassas seemingly might match Ep(i)sford or Saessenaeg habail, and this could be in the Wantsum-Stour area. The person name Ebissa/Eosa/Eopa/Ossa in the HRB is similar to Ep(i)sford and Bassas, and the person was in the same area. (There might also/alternatively be a connection with Pascent?)
One of the only few possible matches for Bassas in the ASC is Wipped(esfleot) 465, and this was possibly in the Wantsum-Stour and/or Ebbsfleet area. Ethelwerd compared Wippedsfleet to the Thesean sea & Aegean sea, which it seems to me might support our impression that Bassas/Episford/Wippedesfleet was the Wantsum-Stour river-strait.
 The Wantsum-Stour river there is a good candidate match for the "shallow" meaning of Bassas. In Roman times Thanet was an island separated by a small strait where the modern Wantsum-Stour is. So in the times of Arthur or Nennius the Wantsum-Stour area could have been a shallow river-strait abit like Lindisfarne island. The 'swelling ford/shallows' in the Wonders of Britain might also match Bassas "shallow" and the Wantsum-Stour (though another possibility might be the Medway). Compare other similar place-names like Basford, Bassenthwaite, Bassingbourne, Baslow?

5. The possible Bass/bathais "forehead" meaning of Bassas could link with that the name Reculver/Regulbium is said to mean "at the promontory or great headland" and the SS fort "entrance faced north" and was "on north side, facing the eponymous promontory".

(Bassas being plural might possibly imply a match with more than one of the above?)

Jackson on one hand suggested that the name is British/Welsh, but on other hand he seems to suggest that the name was "Saxon"? If the name was Saxon then this would also agree with our placement in the Saxon Shore. Kent is between and/or next door to Essex/Middlesex and Sussex. Whether the name is Saxon or not, Arthur is stated to have fought Saxons, and at the estimated time of Arthur's battles (between Octa and Ida in the HB) the Saxons were mainly only in the South and East half of England/Britain (refs ASC, Sayles, Evans, Brynjulfson, etc).

There are also some other possible supporting confirmations in Arthurian traditional sources:

"Bensington" of the 571 entry of the ASC possibly matches or else may be analogous to our Bassas and Reculver. Three or more of the five sites of this ASC entry seem similar to names of Arthur's battle sites (Bensington, Ignesham/Egonesham, Liganburh), and this and other reasons suggest that the sites might be in Kent and not in "Bedford/Buckingham". The 3 battle sites in the HB are close to each other, and our 3 matching sites in Kent are close to each other, and the 3 sites are close to each other in the ASC entry and their names are similar, so it is quite possible that the ASC sites are our battle sites in Kent.

Boso of Richiden/Ridoc/Rico/"Oxford" in the HRB and 'Caer Bosso' "Bosso's city" / Rhydycheu / 'Caer Vembyr' in the 24 kings & 33 cities manuscript seems to confirm that Bassa(s) is close to Reculver or Rutupi/Richborough? [Not sure if Boso could also connect with Boroware of Kent?] The word rhyd/rith = "ford". "Ox-ford" certainly could well match the Wantsum-Stour (possibly compare Bosphorus "ox ford"?) An alleged interpolation in Asser mentions that tradition asserted that Germanus and Gildas and Nennius and Kentigern and Melkinus were at "Oxford".  Caer Bosso is "on banks of the Thames", and it is identified with Vembyr/Membyr/Mynyr which might link with Minnis Bay nearby Reculver?

"Bassalig / campus Aelecti" in Monmouthshire may also analogously/traditionally confirm that Bassas (Reculver) was near to the city of the legion (Richborough/Rutupi) which latter seems to be the original campus Aelecti.
The fields of Gai Campi, Campus Lapideus ("Richborough?"), Campus Aelecti, Campus Heli, Maisbeli, Maisuriam, Maes Garmon seemingly might all match the same place of the city of the legion Richborough.
The names of Campus Aelecti (Bassalig), Allectus (vs Carausius, 3 legions, "York", "at London"), Helig (Wonders), Vultures of Ely (Pa Gur), Beli/Heli/Belin (founder of city of the legion), Campus Heli (metropolis of Padarn), Mt Eli (Cruachan Aichle), Eliseg, sons of Eliffer, sons of Liethali, Elmete seemingly might all be linked with the city of the legion and Richborough.

The "2 streams Rheidiol and Paith" in the Saints Lives might be analogous with our two neighbour sites Rutupi/Richborough (City of the Legion) and Bassas (Regulbium/Reculver) in the Wantsum-Stour area? Paith is vaguely similar to Bassas and/or bass/bathais "forehead", and/or to the "head of Paiach" in the Pa Gur, which recalls the "headland" meaning of Reculver's name.

We can also support our match by analogous sites elsewhere.

 'The Bass' / 'Bass Rock in' Berwickshire / Firth of Forth is in an analogous position to Reculver in Kent. (There is also a Black Rock near Reculver.)

Eglwysseu Bassa "churches of Bassa" &/or (the church of) Baschurch seemingly may link with both Bassas, and with the monastery-church (and/or Bass the priest) of Reculver. ("Arthur resting at Baschurch" is also coincidentally similar to that the mysterious body of the Levitating Altar in the Wonders of Britain has been suggested by some to possibly be Arthur, and we found that the levitating altar seems to match the Reculver Cross at our Bassas site. Perhaps compare Arthur resting in Hall on the isle of Afallach, which is linked with Afarnach's Hall (4th/3rd) of the Pa Gur which corresponds to Bassas (3rd) and the monastery-church or basilica of Reculver/Regulbium (4th/3rd). Avalon was "in the North Sea" in Irish.)

Supplementary list of the main hitherto Bassas location candidates:
Lusas in Hampshire (some think, OEC)
"A possible south country site" (Collingwood)
Reculver/Regulbium/Baetasiorum (us)
Bassianus/Caracalla (Ardrey, us)
Bensington "Bedford/Buckingham"
Bassingham at the middle of the river Witham (Brynjulfson)
Bassington on the river Aln in Northumberland (Hunt)
Bass Rock in Firth of Forth near North Berwick (OEC, Wiki)
Dunipace Scotland (Skene, McHardy, Howells)
Carpow, Perth (Ardrey)
Bassenthwaite (Anscombe)
Baxenden, Lancs (Anscombe)
'Eglwysseu Bassa' / Baschurch, Shropshire (Jackson, Dav White)
Bassalig / campus Aelecti in Monmouthshire (our analogy)
Nothing to offer / Did not speculate / Unidentified / Puzzle / Nor has anyone else adequately identified / Conjectural or unknown / Very problematic (Faral, Lot, Johnstone, Collingwood, Crawford, Brynjulfson, Jackson, Hunt, Dav White).

Edited by Arthur-Robin - 06-Jun-2018 at 09:00
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2018 at 14:26
Update on 2nd battle site Dubglas/Linnuis.

This battle site is glossed to be "and is in region Linnuis" which many have assumed to supposedly only possibly be Lindsey/Lincoln.
It looks like the match for "region Linnuis" is probably London as seen by this table comparing 7 places/peoples names versions.

Linnuis (HB) & Kaerlindcoit (HRB)

Lindsey / Lincoln


Ludanbyrig (Othona / Bradwell)

Letavia (Brittany / Armorica)


Lidinin (Vita Gurthiern)

Lindas / Lindais (Irish annals 622)

Linnuis Linuis Inniis Llyn-wys

Lundenwic Lundewic Lundenisc *Lowonidonjon

Lidwiccas Lidwiccium Lodwicus Letewicion


*Lindenses *Lindensis *Lindensia

Lindsey Lindesia Lindisia Lindisse

Lundoniensis Lundenisc Londinos? *-nedi?

'Limen fortenses'

Lodonesia Londonesia Lothians


*Lindon *Lindum


Lindon Lincoln

Landini London Londonia Londene Lundene Londin Londini Londinio Londinum Londinium Lundinium Lunden Lundene Lundenne Lundone Llundein Lundein Londein Londonia Lundonia Lundoniae Londinos? Llyn-dyn Llyn-din


Lothian Lothians Laudonia Lodene Lothene Lodonia

Lidinin Lewdwn Leuddun Leudonis



Lundenbyrg Lundenbyrig


Lindisfarne Lindisfaras


kaer-lind-coit kaer-loit-coit


*llyn / linn "pool, lake"

Lindo Lindis llyn "water, lake, pool, marsh, fenland"

Kaer-lud *Lendh- "sink"?

Llyn / lan "lake"? lon "hill"? llwyn "wood"? londo "wild, fierce""?

litus "coast, shore, a land reached by boats"?


Lindas Lindais

*-uis/ -wys "inhabitants of region"

*-injo- / -onjo- "used to form place names". (Augusta?)

*-ens- "inhabitants of region"

*-injo- / -onjo- "used to form place names". *-nedi?


There is "Londinio Lindo" in the Antonine Itinerary 6; and there is "regno Londinio"  in the Antonine Itinerary 7.

Lidinin is called "the king who ruled all of Great Britain" in Vita Gurthiern which may match London.

4 battles fought at Linnuis implies a major strategic place which also may match London (better than Lincoln).

Dubglas/Linnuis might be connected with Cregcanford and Lundanbyrig 457 in the ASC?

"The etymology of London is uncertain." One most common opinion has been that "London is commonly derived from two Celtic words -- llyn, din/dyn -- meaning 'the lake fort'", which is the exact same root as is supposed to be in Linnuis. So people who claim that London is "philologically impossible" to be Linnuis are lying because it is not definitely unrelated according to the experts (it might of course perhaps not be related, but the official views admit that the name's root is not certain).  We also showed in the table why the Linnuis and London names seem possibly related (people need to study the rows of the table, it is wrong for the elite to purposely refuse to accept evidence just because we are are not able to be writing thousands of words explaining every darn tiny comparison point which are easy enough to be seen in the table without us having to write millions of pages unnecessarily ridiculously excessively explaining every darn jot & tiddle. They are just purposely using any excuse to stall and waste our time.)

Likewise the river Thames' name also is agreed to have a similar "dark" root word to Dubglas, so again they are lying to claim that our site is "philologically impossible".

Edited by Arthur-Robin - 03-Jul-2018 at 15:04
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2018 at 16:17
Certain people in Arthurian groups in facebook etc keep untruly making out that our Arthur's battle sites matches are "philologically impossible" etc.

After years of experience it is evident that the world is negative and only likes negative destructive critical and not constructive positive (except their own elite ones). Everyone always seems to prefer negative critical pulling down. So instead of us hopelessly trying to show stark evidences of our battle sites matches it seems we instead should be negative ourselves and pull apart and pull down the orthodox battle sites candidates that they avow to supposedly be so superior to ours.

"Glein = Glen (in northern Northumberland or Lincoln (or Leicester))"
What do the "superior" "experts" have? Only one or two/few matches points and nothing much else (the possible name match, and maybe also the Bede's site connection, and that it is "near to Lindsey", and of course it is a river/fluminis, plus some add the river water colour contrast to the Witham "Dubglas"). Don't worry that one of their Glens is "in Linnuis" while the HB only said Dubglas was in Linnuis. Don't worry that one "doesn't have a mouth/estuary" (though some try to say "but it does have a confluence/aber"). Don't worry that Gefrin is not so close to Glein as they claimed their site's Glen name is; don't worry that Gefrin is similar to our own site's name. Don't worry that they don't have an ostium and don't have all 3 words "ostium fluminis Glein" matching like our sites does (don't worry that our site has match for all 3 words). Don't worry that their site is not in an attested set of 9 sites, and don't worry that their site is not number "1st" of 9/12. Don't worry that one of their sites doesn't have any distinctive defenses. Don't worry that they can't even decide or prove which of the 2 Glens that Glein supposedly actually is. Don't worry that Arthur's battles were against "Saxons" ("and specifically Kentishmen"?) and were "before Ida", (and that Octa or Cerdic is mentioned not Ida?) which rules-out Northumbrian Angles. (The main 9 Saxon Shore sites were in the south-east quarter not as far up as Lincoln & Northumbria, as seen in map.) No don't worry, the experts are all right gods, we are just dumb dogs who "supposedly don't know philology/toponomy" etc. Don't worry they have only One possible name match and nothing else but their match is superior to ours which has many matches and is only rejected because of only only one or two disputed points. Our site(s) has far  more quality and quantity matches in the battle site(s) details checklist than theirs and yet they constantly jjust keep trashing ours as "impossible" and their own as superior gods.

What of our site? There is only one or two reasons they reject our site's match. One just because they keep insisting that "Glein can't be related to Garieni" because "the experts know better than" us despite our evidences. Other reason they keep insisting that the south-east quarter was all only Saxon and not any Britons/Welsh/Arthurians there (even though they admit recently that the views of this are changing).

Is our Garieni / Gariannonum name really so different? Compare another name in the French Saxon Shore sites  "Grannona, perhaps Granvile". (Even the words "Grannona ... at the mouths of the Seine..." might also be suggestive of another possibly analogous connection with our 'mouth of river Glein'?)

Checklist of details of Glein battle site from the sources that mention it:

Glein name/meaning
Had a major ostium/aber/confluence/mouth
Was a fluminis/river there
(All 3 words "ostium fluminis ... Glein")
In the east (Arthurian Infopedia version)
Was not "in Linnuis" like Dubglas was
Number/order "1st" of 9/12 sites/battles
Part of an attested set of 9/12 sites
In a triad of 3 rivers sites
Contrasted with Dubglas
Near next battle site Dubglas/Linnuis
Matches Tribruit in PG & Lleenawg in Taliesin
A battle fought there, strategic, defenses/fortifications
The 1st battle of Arthur was lost
Arthur/Britons were/fought there
Fought against Saxons from Germany (LF, HB)
Date between Octa and Ida (HB)
In "(the island of) Britain" (HB)
Is "history" (HB)
May be connected with the Wonders

Whose site matches Glein better the orthodox Glen site or ours?

Glein name/meaning
our site: we say yes, they claim "no"
their site: "yes" (though Gefrin is not so close)

Had a major ostium/aber/confluence/mouth
our site: our site big double Yes
their site: their site one has no mouth though as a confluence

Was a fluminis/river there
our site: yes (same word)
their site: yes (one has same word)

(All 3 words "ostium fluminis ... Glein")
our site:  yes ours has all 3 words matching.
their site: one site has two words matching.

In the east (Arthurian Infopedia version)
our site: yes
their site: yes (though very far north)

Was not "in Linnuis" like Dubglas was
our site: ours matches not in Linnuis
their site: one of theirs is in their "Linnuis"

Number/order "1st" of 9/12 sites/battles
our site: ours is 1st of 9 matching sites set
their site: NO.

Part of an attested set of 9/12 sites
our site: Yes.
their site: No.

In a triad of 3 rivers sites
our site: Yes
their site: ?

Contrasted with Dubglas
our site: [presumably Yes]
their site: "Yes"

Near next battle site Dubglas/Linnuis
our site: Yes
their site: "Yes", they make a big deal that their site is near in line to the 2nd battle site, though Tweed is quite along way from Lincoln.

Matches Tribruit in PG & Lleenawg in Taliesin
our site:  Yes.
their site: No?

A battle fought there, strategic, defenses/fortifications
our site: Yes ours is a fort in Saxon Shore.
their site: one of their sites "has no significant features or defenses".

The 1st battle of Arthur was lost
our site: ours might match this
their site: does theirs match this?

Arthur/Britons were/fought there
our site: They claim "no" but we show evidence that can be yes.
their site: Not so simple. Lothian was British but seems stretch for Arthur fighting in border of Lothian/Northumberland.

Fought against Saxons from Germany (LF, HB)
our site: Yes.
their site: they claim Saxons could be/include Angles. Main SS forts system was not north of the Wash in the ND & map.

Date between Octa and Ida (HB)
our site: Ours fits this much better.
their site: Theirs doesn't match Octa well or before Ida as well, though they can say it could possibly match.

In "(the island of) Britain" (HB)
our site: Yes
their site: yeah.

Is "history" (HB)
our site: Yes
their site: maybe though they don't have any evidences except possible name match.

May be connected with the Wonders
our site: might match one or more of the Wonders.
their site: ?

Surely our site(s) has far more quality and quantity matches than the orthodox Glen one (which only really has possible name match and nothing much else).

Edited by Arthur-Robin - 02-Jul-2018 at 16:23
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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