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would the Roman Empire have lasted had they built a wall?

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Imperator Invictus View Drop Down
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  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: would the Roman Empire have lasted had they built a wall?
    Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 18:37
And don't forget the Antonine wall north of Hadrian's wall. It was only operational for two decades before forces withdrew.

The only wall that really helped the Romans was the wall of Constantinople. It held the Eastern empire together in terms of crisis for 750 years after the collapse of power in Rome. When the Bulgars overran the european territories, the city held them off from overrunning the eastern territories. When the Ummayad overran their eastern lands, Constantinople held off their siege. It was even effective against sea-based attackers from north.

On the other hand, the "walls" of Rome never withstood a siege.


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  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 12:17
If the Roman's built a wall, it wouldn't have mattered. The invasions from Germania they would have eventually broken through the walls, hence the breaking through of Hadrian's Wall by the Picts.

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  Quote RollingWave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 05:55

China however was somewhat in a better position to defend itself due to the fact that tribal invasions for the most part came from one or two directions. The natural wall of the Hymalaya mountains didnt hurt either

not really, the Tibetans were a significant threat to China even during the mighties of all dynasties, while no one would cross those mountains to attack China, it didn't mean the people on those mountains weren't a threat.  

    China's real strength was probalby the fact that those that came into China adopted the Chinese ways and identity realtively quickly. while romans had difficulty in subduing non-Romans (except for the Hellenzied people) into their way.

     Looking through most of history, very few empires fall without good internal reasons. one must try to tie up all the different aspects to really get a good picture  

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  Quote RollingWave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 05:45
   Except that the Romans never quiet rised from the ashes at least politically speaking.......   the fall of the Roman empire had much more to do with their social issues than the barbarian migrations. their true problem had much to do with the social and economic and military design... which unfortunatly can't be sustained without constant conquest... and obviously the booties will run out some day, and then all the problems will come up
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2005 at 03:26
Originally posted by Xipe Totec

One reason that would make the use of a wall in China more effective than the use of a wall in the Roman Empire is the kind of barabarians that were attacking the two different empires. The people attacking the chinese were mostly nomads without siege equipment of any kind. The barbarians attacking the romans were settled peoples with the resources to attack such defences.


Maybe, though I don't know much about germanic siege technology of the time.

Still Rome was able to fence them off as long as it was healthy inside. The Germanic barbarians (the main continuous threat to the Roman Empire) were excellent horesmen like those of the steppes, though their cavalry was rather the type of heavy cavalry that later developed in Medieval knights and not horse archers as the Mongols and Huns.

But Rome never had a good cavalry of its own and when they had to develope it, they did rely on Germanic mercenaries for that purpose. I think we can well say that the Roman army was largely Germanic already before the German invasions.

China also did succumb now and then to barbarians as well. I think the greatest defense that both civilizations had against such invasions weren't their border defenses but their ability to absorb those invaders, when successful into the Latin or Chinese cultures, so they, like the mythical phoenix could arise once an again from their ashes.


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2005 at 21:29
One reason that would make the use of a wall in China more effective than the use of a wall in the Roman Empire is the kind of barabarians that were attacking the two different empires. The people attacking the chinese were mostly nomads without siege equipment of any kind. The barbarians attacking the romans were settled peoples with the resources to attack such defences.
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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2005 at 20:05

 The last lingering vestiges of anything Roman died when Constantinople was sacked in 1204, after that it was a small greek state desperately trying to survive from the total mess that had been the Latin conquest.

 The later Emperors were the heirs of the caesers but Augustus, Trajan, Hadrian, even Justinian would have had a hard time recognising it and what the empire had become.

 Ive said it a million times no number of invasions destroys a great empire a great empire destroys itself from within.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2005 at 13:38
The Empire was weakened inside... Hunnic and German invasions only showed its weakness. For centuries it had evolved from a warrying expansive state into a defensive stand, from civiliztion to feudalism, from stealing others' richess to paying for imported richess... eventually this or that would have destroyed it. In fact most of the Germanic states that succeded the Western Empire did it as federated (allies, vassals) of the Empire, not as formal enemies (that was at least the case with Visigoths and Franks). The Eastern Empire, much richer and civilized than the Western half was able to endure all kind of invasions for one full milennium and, under Justinian, was in the proccess of reunifying the Empire, "liberating" Italia and Africa. Many consider that the Roman Empire wasn't extinct before the fall of Constaninople (Nea Roma) in the 15th century. 
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2005 at 15:48
Originally posted by Genghis

All the walls and cavalry in the world couldn't stop that.


I think that ALL the cavalry in the world could have stopped that, if it would have been nder strict Roman control...
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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 10:54

 No the empire wouldnt have survived, even the mightiest walls cant keep an enemy out forever, look at the walls of Constantinople, it may have reduced the pressure on the frontiers but the wave of migrating people has to go somewhere.

 They pushed on Romes frontiers for centuries a big wall is just going to slow it down if your lucky, the pressure would have built and built until the frontier spilt over and the barabrians overran it anyway.

 Romes weakness was never its frontiers but its ability to adequatly defend them which was fine except for its major achilles heel, the tendency to fall into civil war practically everytime an emperor died in some periods. Civil war means the recall of the legions to other parts of the empire to fight other legions who should be guarding the frontiers, which leads to invasion which leads to a crisis etc etc.

 A frontier be it a river or wall is useless if its not defended well enough, and quite simply Rome could not hold its frontiers in check so a wall would have made little long lasting difference.

 Not to mention the logistics of building such a monumental wall would be astronomical.

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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2005 at 06:24
Originally posted by kermit_criminal

Would the Roman Empire have lasted had they built a wall? China was eventually invaded by the Manchu and Mongols despite the great wall of china but it did do its job for the most part, repelling minor attacks from the northern barbarians. Tribal migration was a big part of fall of the Roman Empire, had they built a great wall of Rome, they may not have been able to prevent all land-based attacks, but may have been able to reduce the frequency and severity of the invasions IMHO. Yes these barbaric tribes used sea routes also, but the sea was easier for the Romans to defend as they were master sailers, while the tribal barbarian counterparts had an advantage in land horse & cavalry combat.

China however was somewhat in a better position to defend itself due to the fact that tribal invasions for the most part came from one or two directions. The natural wall of the Hymalaya mountains didnt hurt either

you can't prevent the utter end of an empire by piling up stones,it would only slow it down,and not that much either

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  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2005 at 23:20

I would say this hypothetical wall, probably along the Rhine would have been doomed.

As Frederick the Great said "he who defends all, defends nothing".  The burden of taxation and the rampant inflation in the West, along with its accompanying destruction of the urban middle class in order to support the huge Roman army had stretched the Empire past the breaking point.  The resources to build such a wall would have were simply not there and even with half a million soldiers the Roman Army was still not in any position to be reduced to spare resources for such a project.

The frontier troops at the time were almost worthless militarily and would have fled before any major sustained effort by the Barbarians to breach the wall, and the good troops that did remain were required as a mobile reserve, not fortification troops.

I think what the Romans perhaps should have considered would be to make an elite light cavalry unit to raid barbarian camps and wreak havoc within Germany itself.  Such a form of raiding/terrorism might have kept the Barbarians off balance enough to mitigate or perhaps stop some Barbarian tribes' attacks on the Empire.

However, after at least 300 a.d., the fate of the empire in the west was a forgone conclusion unless there were massive structural changes within the empire's economy, military, and government.  All the walls and cavalry in the world couldn't stop that.



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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2005 at 15:18
There were two walls in Britain as Hadrian wall and Antonian wall.

They could have built one small in Lombardia.

And where would they take the stone in valley of Rhine? Nice, take it from northern areas. And, the population was not large enough to support the building of walls...

And have you ever seen a full grown oak, about 800 years old? If they could have built such high wall then all their troubles would have been over until nuclear bombs... it should have been like 70-100 metres tall atleast. Seen the forests of Germania or Siber?

Like a ten metres wide and 70 tall wall would approximately require atleast 4500 bricks per square metre... and a long wall... and such high wall would have nop oint near the river cause there were hills on both sides but if to build on a hill...

((I was laughing when i calced the approximate number of bricks what they wouldhave had to import))
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  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2005 at 15:10
wasn't there a defensive wall in Britain separating the south from the north?
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  Quote kermit_criminal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2005 at 14:00
Originally posted by poirot

No! Extended walls spread the amount of areas that needs to be guarded, and according to Sun Tzu, that in turn spreads out the number of troops used for defense.  That means the number of troops stationed at each junction or critical point of the defense line would be smaller, as compared to concentrating the entire force on a few key strongholds.  That means the enemy has an advantage to focus a large force to attack any point in the now widespread defensive line, and overwhelm the now smaller force guarding it.  In other words, building an extensive wall hands the strategic advantage over to the enemy!!!

Hadrian built a wall in Britain because he could not crush the northern barbarians and decided to go defensive.  In China, contrary to popular views, the Great Wall usually served only as the last line of defense.  As we learn from history, Maginot lines never work well.

no building a  wall would allow rome to condense her forces to strategic key points as oppose to being a chicken in a lions den. the great wall of china was taller then most trees in the area, if you make it that tall then the barbarians cant climb over it. Note that i am talking of pre-gun/cannon days, you can also set traps in case intruders try to climb up using ladders. the wall wouldnt be the be-all end-all but would reduce the frequency and severity of invasions, where only the extremely determined, and large armys can overcome.

what this really does is force intruders to go the sea route, and we all know the romans were a dominant sea faring nation, you turn your weaknesses into strengths by forcing the opposition to adapt as oppose to adjusting to the opposition

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  Quote EvilNed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2005 at 08:59
I was under the impression that Hadrian built the wall because Scotland was, pretty much, useless to Romans. Conquering scotland would take more resources than it was worth, and it was cheaper to just wall them in.
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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2005 at 04:47

No! Extended walls spread the amount of areas that needs to be guarded, and according to Sun Tzu, that in turn spreads out the number of troops used for defense.  That means the number of troops stationed at each junction or critical point of the defense line would be smaller, as compared to concentrating the entire force on a few key strongholds.  That means the enemy has an advantage to focus a large force to attack any point in the now widespread defensive line, and overwhelm the now smaller force guarding it.  In other words, building an extensive wall hands the strategic advantage over to the enemy!!!

Hadrian built a wall in Britain because he could not crush the northern barbarians and decided to go defensive.  In China, contrary to popular views, the Great Wall usually served only as the last line of defense.  As we learn from history, Maginot lines never work well.



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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2005 at 11:07

As has already been said, the resources and manpower required to build such a wall would be impossible in certain regions of the Empire.  In the late Roman period, since the army was composed of largely non-Roman mercenaries and barbarian federates, defending the fortification would have been difficult.  Even if they could defend it physically, the chances of betrayal or sabotage from within would be too great when the army had so many non-Romans in it -- the "Roman" guards could just decide to open the gates and let their fellow barbarians in!

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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2005 at 08:57
There was of course a defensive wall built by the Romans in Germany, the Limes that stretched from the Mid-Rhine down to Regensburg on the Danube.
It was over 500 km long, build between approx.100 AD and 250 AD and was a rather patchy and flimsy affair. For long stretches it consisted of wooden palisades and ditches, other sector had stone-walls. Along the Limes were about 900 watchtowers and about 100 rather small fortified camps, at least one of them, the Saalburg, has been reconstructed and I visited it long time ago.
It might have scared off some minor German tribes for a while, but when the Alemans in 260 began a serious invasion of Germania Superior, it offered no real defence and just crumbled away under their onslaught.
As Constantine XI quite rightly said, a serious defensive wall, like the Chinese, along the whole terriritory that was later invaded by the Germanic tribes, from the Northern Rhine down to the Danube Delta, was probably beyond the Roman logistic possibilities.




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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2005 at 08:11

Look at Britain, it obviously didn't work there (nice try Hadrian by the way ). For one thing the construction of a wall in the East to protect against the Persians is an absolute impossibility considering the topography and what it would have taken to actually construct it.

As for the Rhine and Danube frontiers a wall again may have been beyond the capability of construction. We forget China had a MASSIVE amount of human labour resources available for the task of its wall, population density in the Roman Empire was far less and the task would have taken up enormous resources and most likely centuries to actually complete. Next the wall needs to be maintained and defended, and again from what we know of the actual number of troops Rome was able to maintain the manpower to defend the walls wherever trouble might abound along those thousands of northern kilometers was beyond their capability. The barbarians were only increasing in their technological sophistication and would have developed the siege equipment necessary to overcome such an obsticle. Besides that we ignore that Rome was decaying internally, how long before some hard pressed pretender Imperator decides to open his province's defences and invite barbarian armies to help him wage his civil war? And how long before they decide their host is in the way of their own designs........

To sum up, a wall is something that can't be feasibly constructed or maintained so no I don't think a wall would keep out Rome's enemies.

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