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baracuda View Drop Down
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Posts: 722 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Turkish Creation myths and Korea
    Posted: 26-Sep-2005 at 00:15
"GokTurk" no I dont have problem pronouncing the 'ng' in neither Tengri nor Tangri.

"barbar"

Kara=Qara - kuru=Qurug but 'kur' alone in Turkey means to 'to set up', currency, to flirt , course

so after all it means 'dark/black n dry'

Edited by baracuda
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Posts: 1831 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2005 at 09:13

Nice Baracuda; anyhow, 'Qurmoq' also means 'to setup'. 'Qur' sometimes means 'a course' (in study).

 
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Posts: 1831 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2005 at 09:18

By the way, I was here to say something about Korean words; I almost forgot them. Anyhow, I've read a Korean book in which I found out these words which, if true in Korean,  are same in Turkic:

'ay'= moon         tagh= mount         & nbsp;  ne=younger brother (almost the same as Turkmen 'ini' that means the same)

'ghamchi'; the same as Turkic 'Qamchi'.

and a few more words which I can't remember for the time being. I've got to go check them out again. Besides the above mentioned words, I've found a lot  of 'chi's that makes subjects.

Is there anybody who knows how to speak Korean?

 
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Posts: 2408 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2005 at 09:31
baracuda is able to speak (?) or read (?) korean as i heard of someone...
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Posts: 722 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2005 at 10:57
I know a little, but my korean is like tarzan trying to speak english

moon - 'tar/tal/weol' ,
mountain - 'san' ,
younger brother - 'namdongsaeng'

so they're not like the turkic variants, plus I have to add that turkic as turkic I think is older than korean in its form, the oldest korean writings are written in classical chinese, and modern korean writing was invented and introduced in 1444-1446, it has many chinese words in it.. well Im not an expert on korean. But they have some interesting myths, and folklore which I have found sometime ago which can be of 'turks' and put us at a very very early date.

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Posts: 2187 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2005 at 21:13
I'm a speaker (somewhat)

First is a native word and second is a word borrowed from Chinese

Moon:  "Dal"  "Weol"

Mountain:  "Bong" (I think)  "San"

Younger Brother:  I'm not so sure about the origins or any of these.

"Namdongsaeng"  "Dongsaeng"  "Mangnae"
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Posts: 1831 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2005 at 06:57

Oh, thanks to you both for everything. So, they were almost completely inaccurate. Thanks again and take care...
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Posts: 722 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2005 at 09:34
"Gubook Janggoon" on your original question at the start of the post, I have read further and found some interesting things also on this subject from Korean myth's (nationalistic or not)

7193 BC    Han-In (Lord of Heaven), establishes a country 50,000-li north to south and 20,000-li east to west, called Han-guk. It comprises of twelve nations. This is believed to be a tribal league in the nationalist circles, the formation of the ethnic entity: Dongyi ( Koreans and peoples of East Asia: Jurchens (Manchus), Mongols, Khitans, Xiongnu (Huns), and so on. )

7193 BC - 3898 BC Han-guk is ruled by seven in succession by seven Han-In's (Han-In is probably a title of a ruler, rather than a personal name)

3898 BC    establishment of Bak-dal Nara, the first Dongyi state. Its territories are as follows: (farthest extent in each direction)

North-Lake Baykal vicinity. Stanovoy mountains
South-Yangzi river (includes present Jiangsu, Shanghai, and Anhui)East-Russian Maritime provinces West-Dunhuang

3898 BC-3804 BC    Reign of first Han-ung (a title, not a name), Kuh-bal-han
3804 BC-3718 BC    Reign of second Han-ung, Kuh-bul-li
3718 BC-3619 BC    Reign of third Han-ung, U-ya-go
3619 BC-3512 BC    Reign of fourth Han-ung, Mo-sa-ra

3528 BC    The son of crown prince Tae-u-ui, Tae-ho, annexes territory held by Hua (ancestors of the Han Chinese) chieftain Zhuiren. He introduces animal husbandry and agriculture to the annexed area, also devising the Eight Trigrams. In Chinese history, Taeho is known as Fuxi, or Ox Tamer

3512 BC-3419 BC    Reign of fifth Han-ung, Tae-u-ui
3419 BC-3321 BC    Reign of sixth Han-ung, Da-ui-bal
3321 BC-3240 BC    Reign of seventh Han-ung, Kuh-ryon
3240 BC-3167 BC    Reign of eighth Han-ung, An-bu-ryon

3168 BC    Han-ung An-bu-ryon orders General So-jeon (Shao dian) to lead troops to administer the former annexed territories. His son, Shin-nong, introduces medicine and advanced agriculture to the area. Shin-nong is known in Chinese history as Shen-nong, or Divine Farmer

3167 BC-3071 BC    Reign of ninth Han-ung, Yang-un

3071 BC-2971 BC    Reign of tenth Han-ung, Gal-go
During his reign: descendents of Shin-nong earns right of self-rule within the annexed territories. First formal border established with Bakdal Nara

2971 BC-2879 BC    Reign of eleventh Han-ung, Kh-ya-bal
2879 BC-2774 BC    Reign of twelfth Han-ung, Ju-mu-shin
2774 BC-2707 BC    Reign of thirteenth Han-ung, Sa-wa-ra

2707 BC-2598 BC    Reign of fourteenth Han-ung, Ja-o-ji
During his reign: Begins mass production of steel and bronze weapons such as swords, spears, armor, helmet, arrow tips, etc. When Yumang (Yuwang), descendent of Shin-nong, tries to reach the coast by military means, the Han-ung's army crushes them and occupies their capital, Gongsang (Kongsang, in present Shandong). Then the native chieftain Heon-won (Xuanyuan, the Yellow Emperor) issues challenge, whom the Han-ung defeats is 73 successive battles, and makes him a vassal. Heonwon is given the title Yellow Emperor (Huangdi) by the Han-ung, who is also known as Chi-u (Ciyou)

2598 BC-2509 BC    Reign of fifteenth Han-ung, Chi-aek-teuk
2509 BC-2453 BC    Reign of sixteenth Han-ung, Chuk-da-ri
2453 BC-2381 BC    Reign of seventeenth Han-ung, Hyuk-da-sae

2381 BC-2333 BC    reign of eighteenth Han-ung, Kuh-bul-dan. he is the father of the first Tangun, Im-gom



The name " Han-guk " is funny isnt it.. although I might be wrong but it sounds a lot like gok-khan, guk-han, kuk- han, but it doesnt end here... as "Han" supposedly means "sky", even in Korean today "Haneul" means sky... it could have easily meant 'ruler of the skies/heavens' So we have Kok/Gok/Tangri/Tengri Han/Khan meaning sky,heaven,ruler in Turkic with more or less the exact same meaning in Korean..

The Han-guk was comprised of twelve nations, i.e. the Dong Yi, (I've noted them in the begining of the post.)
And the 18 Han-ungs rulling in succession to one another give birth to Dan Gun at about 2333 BC..

To the above I can add about 1.5 years research on the origins/ancestors to the peoples out of the baikal area, expecially at around 3000 - 2400 BC, (Andronovi -Afanasevi) many books published on this subject mostly some japanese (from 1893) and russian,(from 1865-1968)(some are S.V Kislesk 1950 Moscow, S.A.Teplovkhov, 1927 St. Petersburg, V.S. Sorokin 1948) and russian archeological finds from 1865-1880's (p.s. most of these people were later found guilty and sent to siberia or killed for writing on these subjects,charged with treason, there are hundreds of them) Anyway.. I wanted to note that some how the dates mentioned, belief and myths somehow connect..and quite feasable, which is pretty strange isnt it?


Edited by baracuda
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Posts: 2408 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2005 at 11:26
it is indeed strange, ill wait for Gubook Janggoon's reply.
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Posts: 2187 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2005 at 19:28
I wouldn't give much credit to the above.  It's done by extreme nationalists and the history presented is not reckognized by mainstreme Korean academia.

The earliest example of the word "Han" used to represent "Koreans" are the Samhan: Jinhan, Mahan, Byeonhan.  Han or Haan in Chinese is the same character for the state in China that fought with the Qin dynasty and ect.

I suspect that the Chinese character was simply used to denote a native term though.

Hope that helped.  :]

-GJ
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Posts: 722 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2005 at 14:10
Nevertheless nationalistic or not, it along with various korean 'myth's' still resembles the sources I have found that were written in Japan, Russia from the 1860's onwards and the archeological evidence from various digs.... maybe these things were their source for the nationalistic views?

Actaully Im writing on these peoples of central asia, they are ancestors for many peoples among which are turks, there are some more strange things which sort of fit in some wierd way, and that is their structure's generally not being mongoloid, but their so be rulers being chosen from other races, I believe they found a mongoloid skeleton with decorations stating this..

Anyway, like everything is in such matters this is a theory on some evidence, who knows might be or might not be true
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Posts: 1070 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 07:49

Hey I might be an outsider here bcoz I'm neither a Turk nor a Korean but I know I am a sensible being {bcoz I'm an Indian} n I am writing this bcoz I've been in Korea for the last 2 yrz n have interacted with Turks.

Why r u guys discussing this topic? Turks r predominantly muslim n Islam rejects paganism n as far as SOUTH Koreans r concerned...................I can't find words to describe their outlook on religion n creation.Well to put it diplomatically about 50% of S Koreans r christians {1/2 of the population has converted very rapidly after their contact with the US}, n the new generation {most of whom I've met confess they have no religion}.

Does this topic have any significance in the modern context.Does this mean anything to the LIVING people in Turkey n S Korea.

Sorry if I don't make sense.I've worked manually for 12 hours n have had 2 bottles of soju.
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Just a note here.  Converstion to Christianity wasn't catalyzed by contact with the United States.  On the contrary it was started during the Joseon dynasty (Meaning that there is also no connection to Shinmiyangyo.)  Korean scholars went to China, read the Bible, belived, and came back to Joseon to preach.  If anything the French had more to do with it as they were the ones invited by these scholar/priests to help spread to preach the religion.


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Posts: 1070 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 10:36

Originally posted by Gubook Janggoon

Just a note here.  Converstion to Christianity wasn't catalyzed by contact with the United States.  On the contrary it was started during the Joseon dynasty (Meaning that there is also no connection to Shinmiyangyo.)  Korean scholars went to China, read the Bible, belived, and came back to Joseon to preach.  If anything the French had more to do with it as they were the ones invited by these scholar/priests to help spread to preach the religion.

Do u know the definition of a 'Catalyst' Gubook? I don't know the figures,would u like to enlighten me what percentage of S Koreans were christian 60 years ago.
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Posts: 722 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 12:20
"katulakatula", turks maybe predominantly muslim, and koreans christian, but there are a few suttleties in religions, example, turks now have "kurban bayrami", now its a four day muslim festival of sacrifice, but much much before that it existed in islam it existed amongst turkic peoples similar time frame but sacrificing of various animals on the river same cause but to "gok tengri", there are also many things of pagan origins, like the belief that ancestors will help you, going to graves of various people (yatir) and tie'ing something there in belief that it will someway help you with the problem you or a relative has.. one can go on forever, it is said that islam, fitted the turks so well and that is why it was chosen as the religion. Similarly the above apply for various orthodox churches in Russia for example, they do the same things, and iconography, icons although of byzantine origin/style still contian pagan thoughts.
So one can say that pagan religions and festivities and beliefs never really died out, they got integrated into more modern beliefs.. so myths, legends and folklore of such things are to me important, and so it has a pretty large significance to understand where certain beliefs come from..
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Posts: 2187 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 15:32
Originally posted by katulakatula

Do u know the definition of a 'Catalyst' Gubook? I don't know the figures,would u like to enlighten me what percentage of S Koreans were christian 60 years ago.



Er I do know what catalyze means.

I also don't know the percentage of S Koreans who were Christian 60 years ago, but I do know that Christianity, first in the form of Catholocism and later as Protestantism, did take hold in Korea much before the year 1945.  I'm assuming here that you mean the American occupation of the South after WWII when you refer to "Contact with the US".

There's no doubt that the Post WWII contact with the States may have caused some conversion in SK, but that was also probably not the main cause of it. 

Catholocism was already gaining popularity with the literati during the later years of the Joseon dynasty and Protestantism gained its footholds during the last few years of the Joseon dynasty and the Daehan Empire period.  Admittedly the latter sect was helped to spread by American missionaries but that was much before the beginning of the American military ocupation of the South. 

I'm taking this in the context of the whole of Korea, and not just the South, which you seem to be doing. 

My main point was the Christianity had already been a part of the Korean religious sphere long before any real American influences had come to the country. 



Originally posted by katulakatula


Why r u guys discussing this topic? Turks r predominantly muslim n Islam rejects paganism n as far as SOUTH Koreans r concerned...................I can't find words to describe their outlook on religion n creation.


Many Turks are Muslim and many Koreans are Christian but Turks were not always Muslims and Koreans were not always Christians.

There were religions that came before and that is the purpose of this thread.
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Posts: 1070 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 15:41

Over 90% of Turks r muslim n somewhere on AE i read that one of the reasons Turks don't like Mongolians is that they r Buddhists n as far as S Korea is concerned right now I'm working in a small town n u c ugly neon signs over churches after every 50 mts.

My point is the relation of the ancient religion of Turks n  S Koreans to the LIVING Turks n S Koreans.As far as N Korea is concerned I think they believe the leader of their communist party is the God.

Do the Turks n S Koreans respect the religion n beliefs of their ancestors?
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Posts: 2187 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 15:49
Originally posted by katulakatula

Over 90% of Turks r muslim n somewhere on AE i read that one of the reasons Turks don't like Mongolians is that they r Buddhists n as far as S Korea is concerned right now I'm working in a small town n u c ugly neon signs over churches after every 50 mts.

My point is the relation of the ancient religion of Turks n  S Koreans to the LIVING Turks n S Koreans.As far as N Korea is concerned I think they believe the leader of their communist party is the God.

Do the Turks n S Koreans respect the religion n beliefs of their ancestors?



Shamanism is still widely practiced in the South and often in conjunction with existing religions.

Christians will often visit shamans or have their fortunes told while many Buddhist temples will have at least one shrine to the Mountain God, the highest deitiy in Korean Shamanism.

Religion still seems to alive in the North at least in face.  Periodically they'll have NK Christians and Buddhist coming down to pray with the SK's.
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Posts: 1070 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 16:24

Anyong hasseyo Gubook Shi,

I'll leave u with a question before i go to bed { it is 5.13 A M in oori nara}.U say christians still visit shamans or have their fortunes told.

Would such a christian be a real christian? Believe me I don't ask hollow questions.Bible is the scripture that I've read the most n I've interacted with some church boxanims here n in India too.

I believe that if ur answer is in the negative it would prove my point that S Koreans accepted christianity so rapidly bcoz of their contact with the US.

Anyonghi Khesseyo,

Dinesh Mohan Raturi.
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Posts: 2187 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2005 at 16:30
Originally posted by katulakatula


Would such a christian be a real christian? Believe me I don't ask hollow questions.Bible is the scripture that I've read the most n I've interacted with some church boxanims here n in India too.

I believe that if ur answer is in the negative it would prove my point that S Koreans accepted christianity so rapidly bcoz of their contact with the US.



I don't think that I am in a position to answer that question.  Spirituality is something defined by the individual.  For instance my family is still very big on dream interpretation but still views themselves as very Catholic.

In some Latin American nations, indigenous gods have not disappeared but have simply resurfaced in form of Catholic saints.

The whole thing is up to interpretation.  Some people may say yes some people may say no.  It's up to the individual.  Personally I'd say yes.
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