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Evidence of Abraham's existence?

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Evidence of Abraham's existence?
    Posted: 25-Jun-2016 at 11:07
This may possibly be totally embarrassingly wrong but I am wondering if this may be Abram/Abraham of Genesis?

The 22nd king of the 1st post-flood 1st Kish dynasty in the Sumerian kinglist was Enme-baragesi or Bara-gin-ma who smote the land of Elam. The name and smote Elam is very similar to Abraham who in Genesis 14 smote the king of Elam. Other names of Kish 1 dynasty may possibly match the 10 patriarchs in Genesis 11?


Post-Flood Kish 1 dynasty & Shemite patriarchs of Genesis (10-)11.

1 Gaur(u)/Jacur/Gushur ~ 2 Asshur? or 2 Cush?

....

[12a (Mash)Ru-zax/Mesh-Rasax (priest) ~ 1 Shem/Melchizedek? or 2 Arpachshad/Arphaxad?

12b Arpium/Ar-wa-sag/Arwium/Arurim ~ 2 Arpachshad/Arphaxad? or 3 Shelah/Salih? or 4 Eber?

13 Etana/Gal?/Marud (shepherd, went to heaven) ~ 4 Eber (pass/cross over/beyond)? or 5b Joktan? or 9 Terah?

14 Bali(i)h/Ba-gu(b)-'i/Ba-gu(b)-'u/Bi-gu(b)-'u ~ 5 Peleg?

(15 Enmenun(n)a/En-ishib (king-priest) ~ gap? Almodad? Job(ab)?)

(16 Melamkish/Me-de/Me-ti ~ gap? Almodad?)

17 Barraknumna/Barrakununa/Barsalnuna/Ga-ag/Gak/Mug ~ 6 Reu/Ragau??

18 Mesza(mug)/Zamug/Dix-sa-ax ~ 7 Serug?

(19 Tiz-kar/Tiiz-gar/Tizama ~ gap?)

20 Il-ku(u)/Ru-ma-u ~ 8 Nahor?

21 Il-tasadu(u)m/Ru-ta-sa_ra-um(au) ~ 9 Terah?

22 Enme(e)n-bara-gesi/Bara-gin-ma (subdued Elam with weapons) ~ 10 Abram/Abraham (beat & slew Chedorlaomer king of Elam in a battle)?

23 Ag(g)a/Sha-gin/Sha-kin/Sha-gur ~ 11 Ishma-el? or 11 Isaac/Yitzak (60/180 yrs)?


The Sumerian king list was written quite late (time of Larsa)?
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2016 at 19:48

I could be wrong since they found inscriptions of "Enmebaragesi". Plus Kish is a long way from Harran, and Genesis 11 implies that Nahor stayed behind when Terah & co left Ur Kasdim.

This seems a maybe better seeming possible match for the last few persons:

18 Mesza(mug)/Zamug/Dix-sa-ax ~ 7 Serug?

(19 Tiz-kar/Tiiz-gar/Tizama/[Teutamus?] ~ 9 Terah?)

20 Il-ku(u)/Ru-ma-u ~ 8/10 Nahor?

21 Il-tasadu(u)m/Ru-ta-sa_ra-um(au) ~ 11 Lot/Lut & 10 Haran?

22 Enme(e)n-bara-gesi/Bara-gin-ma (subdued Elam with weapons) ~ 10 Abram/Abraham (beat & slew Chedorlaomer king of Elam in a battle)?

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2016 at 02:37
There is a faint possibility that Melchizedek (Shem?) is Meskalamdug of Ur, but i am very uncertain of it at present and it is very likely wrong.

Another possible candidate for Melchizedek is the 2nd king of the 1st Kish dynasty Mukh-la...Tasia...A-zag?
One other possibility is perhaps Lugal-Zaggesi of Umma/Uruk 3?

Of these 8 candidates for MZ, the last 3 are unlikely.
Meskalamdug/Paunukha "hero of the good land" (Ur 0 dyn)
Mukh-la...Tasia...A-zag/Gul-la-(d)nidaba-anna(-pad)/Kul-lassinabel "lord companion" (Kish 1 dyn)
(Mesh)Rasax/(Mash)Ruzax/Macda/Mashda "priest" (Kish 1 dyn)?
Lugal-Zaggesi (Uruk 3)
Mesilim (Kish ? dyn)
Melam-kish/Mede (Kish 1 dyn)
Ammi-saduga/Ammi-saraga (Babylon 1 dyn)
Lugal...?

Chedorlaomer seemingly may be linked with Lagash 1 dyn &/or Uruk 1 dyn. (The plaque of Urnina/Urananshe possibly shows the 4 kings &/or 5 kings.) This is also somewhat uncertain but not as uncertain as the MZ one.


Edited by Arthur-Robin - 27-Jun-2016 at 05:29
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2019 at 04:39

Abraham the father of the Jews in Genesis (in the bible) possibly found in Mesopotamian and also in Egyptian.

Abram/Abraham/Abe/Orham/Yabolahan ("lofty/high father", "father on high", "father of a-multitude/many-nations") "the Hebrew", El-Khalil ("friend of God").

Abraham candidates in ancient Egyptian:
Pa-rin-bara_ka(d)_ma(-ash) / Bara_ka(d)_gin (& possible-wife Lady Ash / Shar-u-gin / Saru, "predynastic", Waddell)? *
Mer(i)b(i)ap(en)/Anedjib ("safe is his heart", 1st dyn)? *
Semti/Semerkhet/Semepses/Semenptah (1st dyn)?
Per-ib-sen/Sekhemib ("hope of all hearts", "powerful in heart", Set(h) race, 2nd dyn)? *
Perenmaat (2nd dyn)? *
Pyramid (3rd/4th dyn)?
Philitis ("lover of righteousness", shepherd at Giza, 4th dyn, Herodotus)?
Ka-aper (Sheikh el-Beled, 4th dyn)?

The famine/drought and following plague(s)/disaster(s) of Abraham (Genesis 12) matches famine/drought & following (numerous) plague(s)/disaster(s) (& miracles) of Uenephes/Ata/Semenptah (Bey pages 28-9) &/or Semerhet (Clayton page 25) &/or Semti (Bristowe)?
Some ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic names syllables/elements/letters may be read any one of a number various different ways around (eg Narmer or Merinar). Mer(i)b(i)ap(en)/Anedjib has 4 letters the same as Abram/Abraham (a, b, r, m). Merbap/Anedjib comes immediately before Semerkhet in the king-lists.
Abraham can't be the 3rd-4th dynasty candidates because Joseph & Jacob were in Egypt in the 3rd & 4th dynasty (Khufu/Cheops more or less definitely proven to match Jacob).

1st or 2nd dyn -- Abraham
2nd/3rd-4th/5th -- Joseph/Jacob (more or less proven)
6th &/or 12th (& 13th?) dyn -- Moses
11th dyn -- Elim
15/16th dyn Hyksos
17th dyn -- Sisera (very strong match)
18th dyn Amarna -- David/Achish, Agur-ben-Jakeh
19th dyn -- Shishak/Rehoboam
19th-20th dyn -- Zerah/Asa

Abraham candidates in Arabian/Moslem:
Jorham (Arab kinglists)?

Abraham candidates in Armenian:
Olybarma ("Noah")?

Abraham candidates in Mesopotamian/Iraqi:
Enme-baragesi/Baraginma (conquered king of Elam, Kish 1 dyn)? *
Humbaba (vs Gilgamesh, Uruk 1 dyn)? *
Abargi (Ur 0/1 dyn)? *
Akalamdug (Ur 0/1)?
Ebrium (king, Ebla)?
Abarama (Ebla  texts)? *
Barginibuzum/Parduibuzum/Laipum (Sargon's father)? *
'A-bu-ra-mu/Ab(i)-ramu (contemporary of Hammurabi's grand father)?
Hammurabi (Babylon 1 dyn)? *
Ab-sin?
Ahlamu (Aramaeans)?

Both Abraham and Enmebaraginma conquered the king of Elam at an early period.
Gilgamesh versus Humbaba is similar to Chedorlaomer versus Abraham at Hobah, or to Chaldeans versus Job(ab).

Abraham candidates in Indian:
Brahm(a(n)) (& Sarasvati)?
Barama ("ear of god", Indus, Waddell)?
Kha -a-ab-lam (Indus, Waddell)?
B'army-ashva (Puru, Chandravansa/lunar, Indian kinglists)? *
Aryan ("noble")?

Nations racially/spiritually descended from Abraham/Abram:
Ashkenazim/Yiddish, Samaritans, Lost Tribes, Falasha, Hebrews/Israelites/Jews, Judaism/Jews, Edomites, Amalekites, Hyksos? Ishmaelites, Arabs/Moslems, Midianites, Christians, "Nephites", "Lamanites".



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 22-Apr-2019 at 04:42
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2019 at 00:53
It's very doubtful that Abraham was Enmebaragesi.

1.  Enmebaragesi was king of Kish.   Abraham was from Ur.   Sumer was divided up into rivaling city-kjngdoms of which Kish and Ur were major players.

2. Enmebaragesi had a son and successor named Aga.   Abraham's children were Isaac and Ishmael.  Aga's career doesn't even fit the careers of either of Abraham's children having to contend with Gilgamesh, the king of Uruk, the "Sumerian Hercules".  With Aga, the 1st Dynasty of Kish came to an end.

3. Abraham's area of military operation was Canaan.   He was said to have fought, with his Amorite allies, against Chedorlaomer the Elamite and his allies, between Dan and Damascus, and defeated them, and that was it..   Abraham never conquered Elam much less the kingdoms of Chedorlaomer's confederates - Shinar (Sumer), Ellasar (Larsa?), and Goiim (literally "nations").   Enmebaragesi, on the other hand was said to have conquered Elam, itself.

4.   Abraham was a nomad, not a king.  He lived in tents and tended flocks.   Enmebaragesi was a king of a full-fledged and powerful state.

5.  There had been various theories as to the identity of the Chedorlaomer and his allies from historical sources.   Among the most popular was to identify Shinar with Babylon with Amraphel being identified as Hammurabi, and Ellasar with Larsa with Arioch being identified with Rim-Sin (alternative cuneiform rendering , Eri-aku).   Hammurabi and Rim-Sin were indeed contemporary, Hammurabi eventually conquering Rim-Sin's Larsa.   Goiim ruled by Tidal remains problematic although one theory identifies Tidal with Tudhaliya, any of the kings of the Hittites.   The triumvirate of rulers of Elam contemporary with Hammurabi and Rim-Sin were Shirukhduh I the sukkal-mah, Shimut-wartash the sukkal, and Siwe-palar-khuppak, the governor of Susa.  The rulers of Elam, at that time had diplomatic relations with Qatna, a powerful kingdom in Syria, but there is no evidence of a far-flung Elamite Empire spanning the whole of the Middle East.
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2019 at 00:55
It's very doubtful that Abraham was Enmebaragesi.

1.  Enmebaragesi was king of Kish.   Abraham was from Ur.   Sumer was divided up into rivaling city-kjngdoms of which Kish and Ur were major players.

2. Enmebaragesi had a son and successor named Aga.   Abraham's children were Isaac and Ishmael.  Aga's career doesn't even fit the careers of either of Abraham's children having to contend with Gilgamesh, the king of Uruk, the "Sumerian Hercules".  With Aga, the 1st Dynasty of Kish came to an end.

3. Abraham's area of military operation was Canaan.   He was said to have fought, with his Amorite allies, against Chedorlaomer the Elamite and his allies, between Dan and Damascus, and defeated them, and that was it..   Abraham never conquered Elam much less the kingdoms of Chedorlaomer's confederates - Shinar (Sumer), Ellasar (Larsa?), and Goiim (literally "nations").   Enmebaragesi, on the other hand was said to have conquered Elam, itself.

4.   Abraham was a nomad, not a king.  He lived in tents and tended flocks.   Enmebaragesi was a king of a full-fledged and powerful state.

5.  There had been various theories as to the identity of the Chedorlaomer and his allies from historical sources.   Among the most popular was to identify Shinar with Babylon with Amraphel being identified as Hammurabi, and Ellasar with Larsa with Arioch being identified with Rim-Sin (alternative cuneiform rendering , Eri-aku).   Hammurabi and Rim-Sin were indeed contemporary, Hammurabi eventually conquering Rim-Sin's Larsa.   Goiim ruled by Tidal remains problematic although one theory identifies Tidal with Tudhaliya, any of the kings of the Hittites.   The triumvirate of rulers of Elam contemporary with Hammurabi and Rim-Sin were Shirukhduh I the sukkal-mah, Shimut-wartash the sukkal, and Siwe-palar-khuppak, the governor of Susa.  The rulers of Elam, at that time had diplomatic relations with Qatna, a powerful kingdom in Syria, but there is no evidence of a far-flung Elamite Empire spanning the whole of the Middle East.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2019 at 02:04
Thanks Sharruin. Sorry i have been in hospital since 22nd and may still be for weeks yet, but i have a little access to using their wireless. I am working on Jacob = Khufu/Cheops article at present so won't answer Abraham & Enmebaragesi and/or other/others until after. (I can prove Khufu matches Jacob except i can't prove the vertical Egyptian dates chronology, though neither can orthodox.)

Originally posted by Sharrukin

It's very doubtful that Abraham was Enmebaragesi.
1.  Enmebaragesi was king of Kish.   Abraham was from Ur.   Sumer was divided up into rivaling city-kjngdoms of which Kish and Ur were major players.mpire spanning the whole of the Middle East.


Abraham was from Ur-(ha-)Kasdim (called a land not city in one verse).
Enmebaragesi/Enme-baraginma was from Kish city, in Uri-ki/Ki-uri/Akkadia.

(Ha-)Kasdim could match Kish? or Akkad?
Ur can mean city or land?

Ur city (Uru-ki) was Urim in king list.

Originally posted by Sharrukin

It's very doubtful that Abraham was Enmebaragesi.
4.   Abraham was a nomad, not a king.  He lived in tents and tended flocks.   Enmebaragesi was a king of a full-fledged and powerful state.


Abraham was in primary line of descent from Adam, Seth, Noah, Shem/Melchizedek, through 10 ancestors/patriarchs (see Bible and Josephus), and ancestor of priest-king Jesus.
The Kish 1 dyn kings might match the 10 patriarchs from Shem to Abraham. Balih is similar to Peleg. Etana similar to Joktan.

Enme/Inme can mean priest-king (Waddell)
Orthodox sources claimed Abraham left Ur *city*.
Early Sumerian was near-contemporary with "prehistoric" cultures (including Combe-Capelids at Kish/Ur).
Sumerian kinglist may not be rigidly correct on who was a king?

Originally posted by Sharrukin

It's very doubtful that Abraham was Enmebaragesi.
2. Enmebaragesi had a son and successor named Aga.   Abraham's children were Isaac and Ishmael.  Aga's career doesn't even fit the careers of either of Abraham's children having to contend with Gilgamesh, the king of Uruk, the "Sumerian Hercules".  With Aga, the 1st Dynasty of Kish came to an end.


Aga in Waddell's re-transliteration is maybe similar to Isaac or Ishmael.

En(-)m(e)e(n-) Barag(g)e(-)si / Bara-gin-ma   
&
"Ag(g)a" / "Sha-gin/Sha-kin/Sha-gur"

Abraham conquered king of Elam, Enmebaragesi did the same.
Gilgamesh/Izdubar / Hercules/Herakles is similar to Chedorlaomer.
Humbaba similar to Hobah.
Joseph's 7 yrs famine appears in Epic of Gilgamesh "have you saved grain, yes 7 years...." (Bull of Heaven chapter).
Enkidu/Eabani similar to Esau/Edom.
(When i was teenager i thought Gamesh was similar to James/Jacob but that is not right.)

-----

On the other 2 bits:

#. Orthodox have Abraham travelling way long way from Ur city to Canaan. Deyo said there was a river that crossed along from Gulf/Mesopotamia to Transjordan vicinity. (Sodom was major cities area then.) Many later Mesopotamian kings had campaigns west, north and east. Hobah is similar to Humbaba. Chedorlaomer king of Elam and Amraphel king of Shinar were in Canaan according to Genesis/Torah.
True it says Abraham "struck them, and pursued them to Hobah", but Abraham did beat king of Elam (who was over lord of other 3), Enmebaragesi did similar according to the very brief SKL verse ("who made the land of Elam submit").
Notice similarity with "king of the 4 quarters". And with the 4 lands in Sumerian (variously including 4 of Amurru/Akharru, Subartu, Guti, Akkad, Sumer, Elam).
Ellasar is probably not Larsa or Assyria, it might be Hellas? or Telassar? or Telloh/Lagash?
Abraham came from Mesopotamia to Canaan, the kings did too, so Abe's deeds would/could have been known upto that time.

5. Hammurabi is more like Abraham or Ham than Amraphel. But he seems to come between Moses and Solomon.

2nd/3rd-4th/5th dyn -- Joseph/Jacob (proven except for vertical dates)
(6th? &) 12th (-13th?) dyn -- Moses
13th dyn -- Cushanrishathaim or Baalhanan?-- Hammurabi's dyn
17th dyn -- Sisera (stark match)
18th dyn -- David/Achish (ive pretty much proven except dates)

I have some good other new/different earlier candidates for the other kings Amraphel, Arioch, Tidal. I can post them later sometime.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 06-Jul-2019 at 17:37
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2019 at 15:43
Abraham was from Ur-(ha-)Kasdim (called a land not city in one verse).
Enmebaragesi/Enme-baraginma was from Kish city, in Uri-ki/Ki-uri/Akkadia.

(Ha-)Kasdim could match Kish? or Akkad?
Ur can mean city or land?

Ur city (Uru-ki) was Urim in king list.

Of the four references to Ur Kasdim in the Bible only the first one has a reference to "land".   "While his father Terah, was still alive, Haran died in Ur of the Chaldees, in the land of his birth" (Gen. 11:28).  The one reference to "land" doesn't mean that Ur was the land.   There was no "land of Ur" as a biblical expression or even in native Sumerian inscriptions.

On the other hand, yes, the equivalent to the "land of Akkad" (in the Akkadian) was Ki-Uri "land of Uri" (in the Sumerian).  However the Kishites never referred to their land as Ki-Uri.    The rulers always referred to themselves as "King of Kish" or "governor of Kish".   In the earliest reference to Akkad, itself, by a king of Uruk, two year-names are known:  "the year the man of Uruk besieged Kish" and "the year Enshakushanna was victorious over Akkad", hence, at that time, there was a distinction between the two placenames.   The expression "Ki-Uri" was a southern term.   The northerners only referred to the land as Kish.   Even the more northwesterly Eblaites referred to the land around Kish as Kish.    

The Kish 1 dyn kings might match the 10 patriarchs from Shem to Abraham. Balih is similar to Peleg. Etana similar to Joktan.

Enme/Inme can mean priest-king (Waddell)
Orthodox sources claimed Abraham left Ur *city*.
Early Sumerian was near-contemporary with "prehistoric" cultures (including Combe-Capelids at Kish/Ur).
Sumerian kinglist may not be rigidly correct on who was a king?

Waddell is no authority on ancient civilizations.   His expertise was in Chemistry and Pathology.   His writings on ancient history, archaeology, and anthropology hold no academic standing.   The Sumerian word "en" is given the meaning "priest-king".   This was the title of the rulers of Uruk.   The Kishite kings were "lugals".   

The same goes with his "Combe-Capellids".  This was just his theory.

Now on your last point regarding the Sumerian King List.   Yes, there are problems with it, but at least the order of rulers is more or less the same in the inscriptions.

Aga in Waddell's re-transliteration is maybe similar to Isaac or Ishmael.

En(-)m(e)e(n-) Barag(g)e(-)si / Bara-gin-ma   
&
"Ag(g)a" / "Sha-gin/Sha-kin/Sha-gur"

Again, Waddell is no authority on the ancient Sumerians.   He was no cuneiform expert, hence his understanding is not considered among current cuneiformists.  

Abraham conquered king of Elam, Enmebaragesi did the same.

No, Abraham did not.  He only defeated the king of Elam.   Enmebaragesi conquered Elam itself.   Don't try to be sly to blur the distinction.

Gilgamesh/Izdubar / Hercules/Herakles is similar to Chedorlaomer.

No.  

Humbaba similar to Hobah.

No.

Joseph's 7 yrs famine appears in Epic of Gilgamesh "have you saved grain, yes 7 years...." (Bull of Heaven chapter).

No.

Enkidu/Eabani similar to Esau/Edom.

No.

(When i was teenager i thought Gamesh was similar to James/Jacob but that is not right.)

I am rather bewildered that if you doubt Gamesh was similar to James/Jacob, so why do you believe that Gilgamesh is similar to Chedorlaomer?

Anyways I have to leave.   Please allow me to finish the rest before you post.   Thank you.
 
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2019 at 16:46
The Kish 1 dyn kings might match the 10 patriarchs from Shem to Abraham. Balih is similar to Peleg. Etana similar to Joktan.

The patriarchs were never referred to as kings in the Bible.   All the biblical texts mention is their genealogy to Abraham.   So, again, no.   

True it says Abraham "struck them, and pursued them to Hobah", but Abraham did beat king of Elam (who was over lord of other 3), Enmebaragesi did similar according to the very brief SKL verse ("who made the land of Elam submit").

Again, you are blurring apparent contexts.  This is unacceptable.   Hobah was in Syria-Palestine.  Elam was east of Sumer.   There is nothing here.

Notice similarity with "king of the 4 quarters". And with the 4 lands in Sumerian (variously including 4 of Amurru/Akharru, Subartu, Guti, Akkad, Sumer, Elam).

You are reading more into the texts than the texts demand.   The "four quarters" merely means the entirety of the world.   And no, the lands were never referred to as "quarters".   If that was so, then the enumeration would have been, Amurru (west), Subartu (north), Elam (east) and the Lower Sea (south).

Ellasar is probably not Larsa or Assyria, it might be Hellas? or Telassar? or Telloh/Lagash?

If Shinar was Babylonia, and Elam was Elam, then the other two confederates would have been in the same vicinity as well.    Telloh is unconvincing.   This is a much more modern name.    Ellasar is not Assyria because the writers of the Bible already had a name for Assyria.   We do know that Babylonia had a dichotomy, a northern Semitic and a southern Sumerian with Nippur as the center.   Hence in the earlier period it was Kish and Sumer, later it was Akkad and Sumer.   Later it was Babylon and the Sealand.   Ellasar may have comprehended southern Babylonia.  Later the Assyrians encounter Babylon and Chaldaea.     Goiim may have been the Gutians, but this is all theory.   Nothing solid.
Abraham came from Mesopotamia to Canaan, the kings did too, so Abe's deeds would/could have been known upto that time.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2019 at 17:44
Can i please ask that we only deal with one or a couple/few points at a time/post? Because i always find it too stressful having to reply more than one/few points at a time and more than one post (and more than one person) and more than one thread/topic (and more than one forum). I don't like being overburdened with false impression of being torn to shreds (which is false though i am not right about some things some times). You yourself said "anyways i have to leave please allow me to finish before you posts".

Originally posted by Sharrukin


The patriarchs were never referred to as kings in the Bible.   All the biblical texts mention is their genealogy to Abraham.   So, again, no.   


Many scholars agree that the 10 preflood patriarchs match the 10 antediluvian kings in Sumerian/Akkadian/Chaldean and Egyptian king lists. So the 10 post flood patriarchs could also match king lists too. Josephus seems to imply such. Some scholars agree that Shem was Melchizedek who was a priest  and a king. Patriarchy/matriarchy an earliest form of government/rule by fathers/mothers/heads of family/tribe.
You can disagree it is not necessarily proven but you can't say it is not possible (and i can't assert it is definite but it is at this stage possible until further evidence swings it either way).


Originally posted by Sharrukin


Again, you are blurring apparent contexts.  This is unacceptable.   Hobah was in Syria-Palestine.  Elam was east of Sumer.   There is nothing here.


Combabus is Syrian, Humban is Elamite. Cedars were Lebanon. Kumarbi was Hittite/Hattite. So Humbaba could be northwest or east. I think the Epic mentions near Euphrates? Humbaba might be connected with Job/Jobab.

If there are no further objections to these 2 then i can pick on of the other points to reply to.

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2019 at 20:51
Originally posted by Sharrukin


You are reading more into the texts than the texts demand.   The "four quarters" merely means the entirety of the world.   And no, the lands were never referred to as "quarters".   If that was so, then the enumeration would have been, Amurru (west), Subartu (north), Elam (east) and the Lower Sea (south).



Biblical:
4 kings: "Elam/east, Shinar/south, Ellasar/north, Goiim/west".
Hebron: Kirjath-Arba "city of 4" (Bible).

Mesopotamian:
"king of the 4 quarters (arba)".
"to water the 4 regions of the earth".
4 rivers Karduniash: Tigris, Euphrates, Surappi, Ukni.
4 lands: Shubur/east, uri/north, sumer/south, martu/west (Enmerkar/map).
4 lands: Subartu/Suedin&Gutium, Akkad/Uri, Elam, Amurru/Phoenicia (Heidel/Ragozin).
4 lands: Subir/Subartu/north, LowerSea/?/south & Elam/east, Amurru/west (map).
4 gods: Nergal/Leo, Marduk/Taurus, Nebo/man, Ninurta/eagle.
quadrate/4-rays star (sun/Sansi/Samas)

Elam/Shem, Shinar/Ham, Ellasar, Goiim/nations/Japheth
Matthew/Levi/Hebrew, Mark/Peter/Romans, Luke/Paul/Greek, John/world



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 08-Jul-2019 at 00:52
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2019 at 00:00
Can i please ask that we only deal with one or a couple/few points at a time/post? Because i always find it too stressful having to reply more than one/few points at a time and more than one post (and more than one person) and more than one thread/topic (and more than one forum). I don't like being overburdened with false impression of being torn to shreds (which is false though i am not right about some things some times). You yourself said "anyways i have to leave please allow me to finish before you posts".

That presents a problem, because I wouldn't know when YOU are finished with all your threads in all your forums.   I would suggest is that you DON'T post in so many threads in so many forums so that YOU can focus on just one.   My only excuse is that I have to leave because of time constraints to answer each and every one of your points.

Many scholars agree that the 10 preflood patriarchs match the 10 antediluvian kings in Sumerian/Akkadian/Chaldean and Egyptian king lists.
 

Scholars have long gone away from trying to equate the patriarchs to the king lists.   The biblical text doesn't demand such identifications, and neither does the native sources.   Rather, scholars have looked rather more internally into the Kishite king list itself and what they found was that the earliest kings of Kish were actually the names of constellations or star groups, hence:

1. Jushur = "Beam" or "Wooden Harrow" - the eastern part of the Vela constellation
2. Kullasina-Bel = "Lord of All" - the Pleiades
3. Nangishlishma = "Divine Jaw of the Bull" - alpha Tauri and Hyades
4. Entarahana  = "Lord, ibex of Heaven" - the constellation Monoceras
5. Babum = "Gate of Heaven" - likely the constellation Auriga
6. Puannum = "Serpent of Heaven" - likely the constellation Cetus
7. Kalibum = "Dog" - the southern part of the constellation Hercules
8. TI,MUSHEN = "Eagle" - most of the constellation Aquila
9. Qalulum = "Lamb" - unknown constellation
10. Zuqaqip = "Scorpion" - the constellation Scorpio
11. Atabba = "Adapa" - between Auriga and Taurus
12. Arbum = "Raven" - the constellation Corvus

kings 13 through 23 have a bit more of a historical context and not associated with constellations

13. Etana "Ascender to Heaven"
14. Balih "(the river) Balih"
15. Enmenuna "Noble Lord"
16. Melam-Kish "Radiance of Kish"
17. Barsalnunna "Noble Sheep"
18. Samug "Birthmark Mole"
19. Tizqarum "Exalted One"
20. Ilku (unknown meaning)
21. Iltasadum "The Goddess is a Mountain"
22. Enmebaragesi "Lord who fills the dais"
23. Aka "Offspring of [divine name]"

So the 10 post flood patriarchs could also match king lists too.

But they don't. 

Josephus seems to imply such.

Josephus was no authority on ancient cuneiform king lists

Some scholars agree that Shem was Melchizedek who was a priest  and a king

Who?

Patriarchy/matriarchy an earliest form of government/rule by fathers/mothers/heads of family/tribe.

I don't understand the point of this.   The earliest instance we have to the investiture of an official in a Sumerian city is recorded on the Warka Vase, where the goddess Inanna grants the office of the "en" (priest-king) to a male over Uruk.

You can disagree it is not necessarily proven but you can't say it is not possible (and i can't assert it is definite but it is at this stage possible until further evidence swings it either way).

If you cannot "assert that it is possible" when why even mention it?   Your own phraseology makes it certain that this is what you believe.   These forums are to educate, not confuse readers into accepting purely speculative ideas.  No AR, you WANT to have forumites believe your ideas.

Combabus is Syrian, Humban is Elamite. Cedars were Lebanon. Kumarbi was Hittite/Hattite. So Humbaba could be northwest or east. I think the Epic mentions near Euphrates? Humbaba might be connected with Job/Jobab.

There is no connection between any of these deity-names.   Combabus, the Syrian deity comes from Ku-Baba, the queen of Kish.  The Elamite deity Humban has no cognate in Syria.   Kumarbi is a Hittite/Hurrian deity identified with Enlil, and again has no cognate with either the Syrian or Elamite deities.  Humbaba was a monster but we now know that the original name was Huwawa, hence again, no cognate with the other deities.

Abraham came from Mesopotamia to Canaan, the kings did too, so Abe's deeds would/could have been known upto that time.

Known by whom?  Thus far, there is nothing in the native Mesopotamian sources which talk about Abraham.

5. Hammurabi is more like Abraham or Ham than Amraphel. But he seems to come between Moses and Solomon.

Hammurabi never went into Syria-Palestine unlike Abraham.   Also, unlike Abraham, he conquered Mari but not further west which was under the rulers of Yamhad and Qatna.  Also, unlike Abraham, Hammurabi made no incursion into Egypt.  Unlike Abraham, Hammurabi was a king.  Unlike Abraham, Hammurabi had a son and successor named Samsu-iluna.

2nd/3rd-4th/5th dyn -- Joseph/Jacob (proven except for vertical dates)

He is not proven, not the least.

(6th? &) 12th (-13th?) dyn -- Moses

He is not proven at this time, either

13th dyn -- Cushanrishathaim or Baalhanan?-- Hammurabi's dyn

He is not proven at this time, either

17th dyn -- Sisera (stark match)

Totally unmatched.  This is just a whim of yours.

18th dyn -- David/Achish (ive pretty much proven except dates)

Not in the least.  You blatantly disregard ALL the available Egyptian, biblical, and Assyro-Babylonian chronological data.  David (c. 1000 BC) and 18th Dynasty (c. 1550-1300 BC).  I can expand on this if you care to see the data scholars use.  


Edited by Sharrukin - 08-Jul-2019 at 00:02
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Chieftain
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2019 at 00:45
Biblical:
4 kings: "Elam/east, Shinar/south, Ellasar/north, Goiim/west".
Hebron: Kirjath-Arba "city of 4" (Bible).

Mesopotamian:
"king of the 4 quarters (arba)".
"to water the 4 regions of the earth".
4 rivers Karduniash: Tigris, Euphrates, Surappi, Ukni.
4 lands: Shubur/east, uri/north, sumer/south, martu/west (Enmerkar/map).
4 lands: Subartu/Suedin&Gutium, Akkad/Uri, Elam, Amurru/Phoenicia (Heidel/Ragozin).
4 lands: Subir/Subartu/north, LowerSea/?/south & Elam/east, Amurru/west (map).
4 gods: Nergal/Leo, Marduk/Taurus, Nebo/man, Ninurta/eagle.
quadrate/4-rays star (sun/Sansi/Samas)

You are just throwing at me examples of sets of four, with no two being alike.   You did not prove that the "four allies" under Chedorlaomer were the same as the "king of the four quarters" of the Babylonian titularies or of Abraham as a king of the same.   Sorry, but this subject is dead.




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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2019 at 00:50
Ok forget it i am just an all wrong dumb dog and you/they are all right superior gods.

Edited by Arthur-Robin - 08-Jul-2019 at 00:50
NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone.
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jul-2019 at 00:15
A-R, you must KNOW that your theories are controversial.  Even among expositors of the Bible, the notion that the patriarchs can be matched to the last 10 kings of the First Kish Dynasty are a minority.   The Biblical text just doesn't demand or allow for the patriarchs to be identified as kings, and conversely the Sumerian King List does not describe the last 10 kings of Kish as anything more than "kings", and then, when we do have more information on such patriarchs such as Abraham, there is nothing to suggest that he was some migrating ruler of some exceptionally powerful country who settles among the Canaanites.  Abraham is described as a "wandering Aramaean" you know.   This is not the occupation of the ruler of a powerful state.  There is no contemporary evidence in inscriptions (or after, for that matter) that describe the defeat of a coalition of eastern rulers by a nomad.   Abraham would have been described as a Martu or Amurruite, if he was ever mentioned in a Mesopotamian inscription.   Enmebaragesi is dated conventionally to Early Dynastic II period (c. 2700-2600 BC) based on the philology of his inscriptions.  His son's opponent Gilgamesh, was already regarded as a deity in Early Dynastic IIIa (c. 2600-2500 BC) in the God List of the Shuruppak Archive.  

To try to find a match for dating Abraham one must find a period when Elam dominated the Middle East.   Thus far, there is nothing to show that the Elamites dominated the Middle East, but there is some inscriptional evidence that they at least had some dominance in Babylonia, itself.   The Sumerian King List, for instance does indeed mention that Awan, an Elamite state took the Kingship from the First Dynasty of Ur.   During the Gutian period, Awan again had dominance in northern Babylonia.  The Third Dynasty of Ur ended with the Elamite conquest of Ur.  The last kings of Larsa, who eventually conquered southern Babylonia were descended from a ruler who bore an Elamite name.   That ancestral ruler, Kudur-Mabug has a name which can be compared with Chedorlaomer given that it can easily be reconstructed as Elamite "Kudur-Lagamar", although so far there is no inscriptional evidence for this name.  Other kings having these elements include Kutir-Nahhunte I, II, III, Kutir-Shilhaha, and Shilhina-Hamru-Lakamar,  An "Elamite Dynasty" ruled Babylonia briefly in the 10th century BC.  
< ="/_Incapsula_Resource?SWJIYLWA=719d34d31c8e3a6e6fffd425f7e032f3&ns=62&cb=751484878" ="text/" async=""> //
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