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Polish secret services during WW2

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Polish secret services during WW2
    Posted: 23-Apr-2016 at 22:17
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Mosquito, though much important information was coming through Polish agents we should forget these things tended to be a joint effort. For instance, without funding and other resources from Poland's allies what position would they have been in to take part? It has been stated that about 43% of reports received by British intelligence from continental Europe were from Polish agents. However as it has already been noted agents in France tended to be French. The significance being the huge number of reports of French origin being passed on to Polish handlers who then passed them on to British intelligence. This doesn't in any way make the Polish handlers/operatives any less brave because they aren't retrieving the vast majority of the information themselves. They were still being hunted by the Nazis, and at times being caught.



It doesnt change the fact the for example the Free French were angry that Poles got better intel on the territory of France than they. Or that British services were stealing agents from Polish services.
The best example is Jerzy Iwanow-Szajnowicz who was a Polish secret agent which started working for the British. He was a great agent who himself helped to sunk 2 uboats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Iwanow-Szajnowicz

And Wiki article doesnt say his story at all. According to Polish book I have read, he was a traitor who started working for the British.






Edited by Mosquito - 23-Apr-2016 at 22:22
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2016 at 22:25
Another Polish super agent who was working for the British was Krystyna Skarbek. After her were also modeled some characters in James Bond's books and movies:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krystyna_Skarbek
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2016 at 22:30
BTW - in communist Poland the secret services were also modeled and based on the principles of Polish pre-war services. And they were also very successsful.

The best Polish communist agent was probably Marian Zacharski who gained "highly classified documents detailing Hughes Aircraft radar and weapons systems....material on the then-new Patriot and Phoenix missiles, the enhanced version of the Hawk air-to-air missile, radar instrumentation for the F-15 fighter, F-16, "stealth radar" for the B-1 and Stealth bomber, an experimental radar system being tested by the U.S. Navy, submarine sonar, and the M1 Abrams tank"



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Zacharski


The only pain is that communist Poland was sharing the results of its work with the Soviets...

From viki article:

According to Kenneth Kaiser, an agency counterintelligence supervisor in Chicago, Poland was particularly active in industrial espionage. While the Soviet KGB got all the press, Polish intelligence was perhaps superior. They, however, could not care less about military intelligence; they wanted economic and scientific secrets. Their objective was to short-circuit development costs and undersell us And, as the Zacharski case suggests, they were good at finding friends in the right places.



However it must be said that once Poland switched sides after Warsaw Pact collapse and long before joining NATO, Polish services were a great help for Americans in their troubles. Operation Simoom in Iraq being the best example of it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Simoom


Of the cases which are now comonly known, for example a man-portable air-defense system produced in Poland "GROM" is based on the plans stolen by Polish secret services in Russia.

Edited by Mosquito - 23-Apr-2016 at 22:50
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2016 at 22:37
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Mosquito, though much important information was coming through Polish agents we should forget these things tended to be a joint effort. For instance, without funding and other resources from Poland's allies what position would they have been in to take part? It has been stated that about 43% of reports received by British intelligence from continental Europe were from Polish agents. However as it has already been noted agents in France tended to be French. The significance being the huge number of reports of French origin being passed on to Polish handlers who then passed them on to British intelligence. This doesn't in any way make the Polish handlers/operatives any less brave because they aren't retrieving the vast majority of the information themselves. They were still being hunted by the Nazis, and at times being caught.



It doesnt change the fact the for example the Free French were angry that Poles got better intel on the territory of France than they. Or that British services were stealing agents from Polish services.
The best example is Jerzy Iwanow-Szajnowicz who was a Polish secret agent which started working for the British. He was a great agent who himself helped to sunk 2 uboats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Iwanow-Szajnowicz

And Wiki article doesnt say his story at all. According to Polish book I have read, he was a traitor who started working for the British.
As yet I've not been able to verify your claims of the free French's disdain towards the Polish in regards to intel gathering. My guess this was to be found in Polish books, Mosquito?
Stealing agents is a matter of opinion, Mosquito. Pretty sure it's the agent's choice and who is better to work for.
Jerzy Iwanow-Szajnowicz was a good agent. A Russian/Pole brought up in life in Greece until becoming a Polish citizen before going back to Greece gained his skills in the water in Greece before putting those skills to good use in the war. You say Polish book says he's a traitor? I don't get a sense of that from the little I've read on his work with the Greek resistance...etc.... Polish books hey?
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2016 at 00:05
Originally posted by Mosquito

BTW - in communist Poland the secret services were also modeled and based on the principles of Polish pre-war services. And they were also very successsful.

The best Polish communist agent was probably Marian Zacharski who gained "highly classified documents detailing Hughes Aircraft radar and weapons systems....material on the then-new Patriot and Phoenix missiles, the enhanced version of the Hawk air-to-air missile, radar instrumentation for the F-15 fighter, F-16, "stealth radar" for the B-1 and Stealth bomber, an experimental radar system being tested by the U.S. Navy, submarine sonar, and the M1 Abrams tank"



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Zacharski


The only pain is that communist Poland was sharing the results of its work with the Soviets...

From viki article:

According to Kenneth Kaiser, an agency counterintelligence supervisor in Chicago, Poland was particularly active in industrial espionage. While the Soviet KGB got all the press, Polish intelligence was perhaps superior. They, however, could not care less about military intelligence; they wanted economic and scientific secrets. Their objective was to short-circuit development costs and undersell us And, as the Zacharski case suggests, they were good at finding friends in the right places.



However it must be said that once Poland switched sides after Warsaw Pact collapse and long before joining NATO, Polish services were a great help for Americans in their troubles. Operation Simoom in Iraq being the best example of it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Simoom


Of the cases which are now comonly known, for example a man-portable air-defense system produced in Poland "GROM" is based on the plans stolen by Polish secret services in Russia.

Those plans Marian Zacharski had wasn't he arrested before he was able to dispatch them? Sounds like a sting to me. He had been given away by a list of spies from a defector.

Operation Simoom was very useful in halving your debt to the US and getting the American to help construct JW GROM. One thing, though, if the Americans were so desperate for the assistance why only half of your debt? Just a thought but kind of obvious.Smile
The air defence system stolen from the Russians was at that time of turmoil after the collapse of the Soviet Union when almost anyone with cash could find someone to sell almost anything and your people had prior knowledge of the system and where to find it. Still if you don't have the brains to make it yourself I guess stealing the property of others is the next best thing and the cheapest.Smile 
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2016 at 08:57
Those plans Marian Zacharski had wasn't he arrested before he was able to dispatch them?


No, so far I know finally everything went to Soviets.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2016 at 09:01
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Operation Simoom was very useful in halving your debt to the US and getting the American to help construct JW GROM. One thing, though, if the Americans were so desperate for the assistance why only half of your debt? Just a thought but kind of obvious


I guess our negotiators were poor ;) Anyway, they payed somthing like hundrieds millions of dollars for every saved CIA agent. Still good price, isint it?
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2016 at 09:05
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

I guess stealing the property of others is the next best thing and the cheapest.


There were some technologies which client states of USSR were not allowed to develop on their own. Rocket technology was one of them. In general Soviets wanted all their client states to buy arms from USSR or at best - to produce older Soviet arms on the licence.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2016 at 14:08
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

I guess stealing the property of others is the next best thing and the cheapest.


There were some technologies which client states of USSR were not allowed to develop on their own. Rocket technology was one of them. In general Soviets wanted all their client states to buy arms from USSR or at best - to produce older Soviet arms on the licence.

I wasn't aware of this, Mosquito. However as I understand it in this case this was Soviet technology procured after the Soviet era when Poland was no longer a client state.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2016 at 14:37
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Operation Simoom was very useful in halving your debt to the US and getting the American to help construct JW GROM. One thing, though, if the Americans were so desperate for the assistance why only half of your debt? Just a thought but kind of obvious


I guess our negotiators were poor ;) Anyway, they payed somthing like hundrieds millions of dollars for every saved CIA agent. Still good price, isint it?

In my opinion, Mosquito, the payments are extraordinarily high. My guess is that there was little if any negotiating involved at all. You had assets on the ground a debt to pay, and still the Americans help construct JW GROM. I wonder how much convincing Hungary and the Czech Republic needed to join NATO, Mosquito. Wink Btw, Mosquito, I still believe the full debt could have been cleared.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2016 at 15:18
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

......and still the Americans help construct JW GROM.


JW GROM is special force unit. The rocket system GROM is somthing else. Americans had nothing to do with it. They helped to train first GROM soldiers but didnt have any part in construction of GROM rocket system.

Edited by Mosquito - 25-Apr-2016 at 15:20
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2016 at 15:32
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

......and still the Americans help construct JW GROM.


JW GROM is special force unit. The rocket system GROM is somthing else. Americans had nothing to do with it. They helped to train first GROM soldiers but didnt have any part in construction of GROM rocket system.

That is why I said JW GROM, Mosquito, and not GROM rocket system.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2016 at 15:59
Originally posted by Mosquito

Those plans Marian Zacharski had wasn't he arrested before he was able to dispatch them?


No, so far I know finally everything went to Soviets.
At the moment, I can confirm the Vympel K-13 as tech from the stolen plans of the missile system. As for the stealth radar technology the Soviets either never received it or didn't understand what they had. Russia's came out with theirs in 2009. Can find anything on the rest but I will keep on searching.

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2016 at 19:10
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

At the moment, I can confirm the Vympel K-13 as tech from the stolen plans of the missile system. As for the stealth radar technology the Soviets either never received it or didn't understand what they had. Russia's came out with theirs in 2009. Can find anything on the rest but I will keep on searching.


Soviets had big problem in the 80ties. They were not even able to copy many of the stolen technologies.

As for Zacharski there is quite a lot about him :

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-06-07/news/mn-15956_1_william-holden-bell


http://www.nytimes.com/1981/10/22/us/polish-businessman-accused-as-spy-goes-on-trial.html


http://www.csmonitor.com/1984/0112/011219.html




Edited by Mosquito - 25-Apr-2016 at 19:17
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2016 at 19:19
and btw - consider the fact that even now only such cases of espionage are known which ended in the capture of the agent. Those who were not captured got their files burned long time ago.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2016 at 16:23
Originally posted by Mosquito

and btw - consider the fact that even now only such cases of espionage are known which ended in the capture of the agent. Those who were not captured got their files burned long time ago.
Mainly because it is hard to say if there was any depth of talent in the field much above those caught, I couldn't possibly comment a great deal on hearsay alone, Mosquito. This isn't to say there may not have been any.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2016 at 16:37
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

At the moment, I can confirm the Vympel K-13 as tech from the stolen plans of the missile system. As for the stealth radar technology the Soviets either never received it or didn't understand what they had. Russia's came out with theirs in 2009. Can find anything on the rest but I will keep on searching.


Soviets had big problem in the 80ties. They were not even able to copy many of the stolen technologies.

As for Zacharski there is quite a lot about him :

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-06-07/news/mn-15956_1_william-holden-bell


http://www.nytimes.com/1981/10/22/us/polish-businessman-accused-as-spy-goes-on-trial.html


http://www.csmonitor.com/1984/0112/011219.html


Had already read these things about Zacharski, but thank you anyway, Mosquito.

As for the Soviets having problems copying stolen technologies. Again, I guess it is possible in some instances. However, the anti-aircraft missile technology is quite technical. Would have expected those capable of understanding those specs to also do so with the stealth technology. Not finding anything about a Soviet use from the plans of the tank is the most baffling though considering they really did know their stuff in regards to tanks.  
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2016 at 19:50
This is German announcment that 100 Polish hostages will be killed because 2 German officials were murdered by underground forces which are "on the pay of England".

You can notice that it is signed by "Der Kommandeur der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD fur den Distritk Warschau" -Commander of Police and SS for Warsaw District - without any name. German commanders in Poland were completely terrorised and were hiding their indetities.
However even this measures wasnt usualy enough because Polish secret services were able to identify them and next execute. Operation Kutchera being the best example of such actions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Kutschera



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  Quote AnchoritSybarit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2017 at 02:23
OMG.  Three pages of posts about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
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