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Polish secret services during WW2

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  Quote AnchoritSybarit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Polish secret services during WW2
    Posted: 23-Mar-2017 at 02:23
OMG.  Three pages of posts about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2016 at 19:50
This is German announcment that 100 Polish hostages will be killed because 2 German officials were murdered by underground forces which are "on the pay of England".

You can notice that it is signed by "Der Kommandeur der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD fur den Distritk Warschau" -Commander of Police and SS for Warsaw District - without any name. German commanders in Poland were completely terrorised and were hiding their indetities.
However even this measures wasnt usualy enough because Polish secret services were able to identify them and next execute. Operation Kutchera being the best example of such actions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Kutschera



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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2016 at 16:37
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

At the moment, I can confirm the Vympel K-13 as tech from the stolen plans of the missile system. As for the stealth radar technology the Soviets either never received it or didn't understand what they had. Russia's came out with theirs in 2009. Can find anything on the rest but I will keep on searching.


Soviets had big problem in the 80ties. They were not even able to copy many of the stolen technologies.

As for Zacharski there is quite a lot about him :

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-06-07/news/mn-15956_1_william-holden-bell


http://www.nytimes.com/1981/10/22/us/polish-businessman-accused-as-spy-goes-on-trial.html


http://www.csmonitor.com/1984/0112/011219.html


Had already read these things about Zacharski, but thank you anyway, Mosquito.

As for the Soviets having problems copying stolen technologies. Again, I guess it is possible in some instances. However, the anti-aircraft missile technology is quite technical. Would have expected those capable of understanding those specs to also do so with the stealth technology. Not finding anything about a Soviet use from the plans of the tank is the most baffling though considering they really did know their stuff in regards to tanks.  
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2016 at 16:23
Originally posted by Mosquito

and btw - consider the fact that even now only such cases of espionage are known which ended in the capture of the agent. Those who were not captured got their files burned long time ago.
Mainly because it is hard to say if there was any depth of talent in the field much above those caught, I couldn't possibly comment a great deal on hearsay alone, Mosquito. This isn't to say there may not have been any.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2016 at 19:19
and btw - consider the fact that even now only such cases of espionage are known which ended in the capture of the agent. Those who were not captured got their files burned long time ago.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2016 at 19:10
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

At the moment, I can confirm the Vympel K-13 as tech from the stolen plans of the missile system. As for the stealth radar technology the Soviets either never received it or didn't understand what they had. Russia's came out with theirs in 2009. Can find anything on the rest but I will keep on searching.


Soviets had big problem in the 80ties. They were not even able to copy many of the stolen technologies.

As for Zacharski there is quite a lot about him :

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-06-07/news/mn-15956_1_william-holden-bell


http://www.nytimes.com/1981/10/22/us/polish-businessman-accused-as-spy-goes-on-trial.html


http://www.csmonitor.com/1984/0112/011219.html




Edited by Mosquito - 25-Apr-2016 at 19:17
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2016 at 15:59
Originally posted by Mosquito

Those plans Marian Zacharski had wasn't he arrested before he was able to dispatch them?


No, so far I know finally everything went to Soviets.
At the moment, I can confirm the Vympel K-13 as tech from the stolen plans of the missile system. As for the stealth radar technology the Soviets either never received it or didn't understand what they had. Russia's came out with theirs in 2009. Can find anything on the rest but I will keep on searching.

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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2016 at 15:32
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

......and still the Americans help construct JW GROM.


JW GROM is special force unit. The rocket system GROM is somthing else. Americans had nothing to do with it. They helped to train first GROM soldiers but didnt have any part in construction of GROM rocket system.

That is why I said JW GROM, Mosquito, and not GROM rocket system.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2016 at 15:18
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

......and still the Americans help construct JW GROM.


JW GROM is special force unit. The rocket system GROM is somthing else. Americans had nothing to do with it. They helped to train first GROM soldiers but didnt have any part in construction of GROM rocket system.

Edited by Mosquito - 25-Apr-2016 at 15:20
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2016 at 14:37
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Operation Simoom was very useful in halving your debt to the US and getting the American to help construct JW GROM. One thing, though, if the Americans were so desperate for the assistance why only half of your debt? Just a thought but kind of obvious


I guess our negotiators were poor ;) Anyway, they payed somthing like hundrieds millions of dollars for every saved CIA agent. Still good price, isint it?

In my opinion, Mosquito, the payments are extraordinarily high. My guess is that there was little if any negotiating involved at all. You had assets on the ground a debt to pay, and still the Americans help construct JW GROM. I wonder how much convincing Hungary and the Czech Republic needed to join NATO, Mosquito. Wink Btw, Mosquito, I still believe the full debt could have been cleared.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2016 at 14:08
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

I guess stealing the property of others is the next best thing and the cheapest.


There were some technologies which client states of USSR were not allowed to develop on their own. Rocket technology was one of them. In general Soviets wanted all their client states to buy arms from USSR or at best - to produce older Soviet arms on the licence.

I wasn't aware of this, Mosquito. However as I understand it in this case this was Soviet technology procured after the Soviet era when Poland was no longer a client state.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2016 at 09:05
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

I guess stealing the property of others is the next best thing and the cheapest.


There were some technologies which client states of USSR were not allowed to develop on their own. Rocket technology was one of them. In general Soviets wanted all their client states to buy arms from USSR or at best - to produce older Soviet arms on the licence.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2016 at 09:01
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Operation Simoom was very useful in halving your debt to the US and getting the American to help construct JW GROM. One thing, though, if the Americans were so desperate for the assistance why only half of your debt? Just a thought but kind of obvious


I guess our negotiators were poor ;) Anyway, they payed somthing like hundrieds millions of dollars for every saved CIA agent. Still good price, isint it?
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2016 at 08:57
Those plans Marian Zacharski had wasn't he arrested before he was able to dispatch them?


No, so far I know finally everything went to Soviets.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2016 at 00:05
Originally posted by Mosquito

BTW - in communist Poland the secret services were also modeled and based on the principles of Polish pre-war services. And they were also very successsful.

The best Polish communist agent was probably Marian Zacharski who gained "highly classified documents detailing Hughes Aircraft radar and weapons systems....material on the then-new Patriot and Phoenix missiles, the enhanced version of the Hawk air-to-air missile, radar instrumentation for the F-15 fighter, F-16, "stealth radar" for the B-1 and Stealth bomber, an experimental radar system being tested by the U.S. Navy, submarine sonar, and the M1 Abrams tank"



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Zacharski


The only pain is that communist Poland was sharing the results of its work with the Soviets...

From viki article:

According to Kenneth Kaiser, an agency counterintelligence supervisor in Chicago, Poland was particularly active in industrial espionage. While the Soviet KGB got all the press, Polish intelligence was perhaps superior. They, however, could not care less about military intelligence; they wanted economic and scientific secrets. Their objective was to short-circuit development costs and undersell us And, as the Zacharski case suggests, they were good at finding friends in the right places.



However it must be said that once Poland switched sides after Warsaw Pact collapse and long before joining NATO, Polish services were a great help for Americans in their troubles. Operation Simoom in Iraq being the best example of it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Simoom


Of the cases which are now comonly known, for example a man-portable air-defense system produced in Poland "GROM" is based on the plans stolen by Polish secret services in Russia.

Those plans Marian Zacharski had wasn't he arrested before he was able to dispatch them? Sounds like a sting to me. He had been given away by a list of spies from a defector.

Operation Simoom was very useful in halving your debt to the US and getting the American to help construct JW GROM. One thing, though, if the Americans were so desperate for the assistance why only half of your debt? Just a thought but kind of obvious.Smile
The air defence system stolen from the Russians was at that time of turmoil after the collapse of the Soviet Union when almost anyone with cash could find someone to sell almost anything and your people had prior knowledge of the system and where to find it. Still if you don't have the brains to make it yourself I guess stealing the property of others is the next best thing and the cheapest.Smile 
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2016 at 22:37
Originally posted by Mosquito

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Mosquito, though much important information was coming through Polish agents we should forget these things tended to be a joint effort. For instance, without funding and other resources from Poland's allies what position would they have been in to take part? It has been stated that about 43% of reports received by British intelligence from continental Europe were from Polish agents. However as it has already been noted agents in France tended to be French. The significance being the huge number of reports of French origin being passed on to Polish handlers who then passed them on to British intelligence. This doesn't in any way make the Polish handlers/operatives any less brave because they aren't retrieving the vast majority of the information themselves. They were still being hunted by the Nazis, and at times being caught.



It doesnt change the fact the for example the Free French were angry that Poles got better intel on the territory of France than they. Or that British services were stealing agents from Polish services.
The best example is Jerzy Iwanow-Szajnowicz who was a Polish secret agent which started working for the British. He was a great agent who himself helped to sunk 2 uboats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Iwanow-Szajnowicz

And Wiki article doesnt say his story at all. According to Polish book I have read, he was a traitor who started working for the British.
As yet I've not been able to verify your claims of the free French's disdain towards the Polish in regards to intel gathering. My guess this was to be found in Polish books, Mosquito?
Stealing agents is a matter of opinion, Mosquito. Pretty sure it's the agent's choice and who is better to work for.
Jerzy Iwanow-Szajnowicz was a good agent. A Russian/Pole brought up in life in Greece until becoming a Polish citizen before going back to Greece gained his skills in the water in Greece before putting those skills to good use in the war. You say Polish book says he's a traitor? I don't get a sense of that from the little I've read on his work with the Greek resistance...etc.... Polish books hey?
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2016 at 22:30
BTW - in communist Poland the secret services were also modeled and based on the principles of Polish pre-war services. And they were also very successsful.

The best Polish communist agent was probably Marian Zacharski who gained "highly classified documents detailing Hughes Aircraft radar and weapons systems....material on the then-new Patriot and Phoenix missiles, the enhanced version of the Hawk air-to-air missile, radar instrumentation for the F-15 fighter, F-16, "stealth radar" for the B-1 and Stealth bomber, an experimental radar system being tested by the U.S. Navy, submarine sonar, and the M1 Abrams tank"



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Zacharski


The only pain is that communist Poland was sharing the results of its work with the Soviets...

From viki article:

According to Kenneth Kaiser, an agency counterintelligence supervisor in Chicago, Poland was particularly active in industrial espionage. While the Soviet KGB got all the press, Polish intelligence was perhaps superior. They, however, could not care less about military intelligence; they wanted economic and scientific secrets. Their objective was to short-circuit development costs and undersell us And, as the Zacharski case suggests, they were good at finding friends in the right places.



However it must be said that once Poland switched sides after Warsaw Pact collapse and long before joining NATO, Polish services were a great help for Americans in their troubles. Operation Simoom in Iraq being the best example of it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Simoom


Of the cases which are now comonly known, for example a man-portable air-defense system produced in Poland "GROM" is based on the plans stolen by Polish secret services in Russia.

Edited by Mosquito - 23-Apr-2016 at 22:50
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2016 at 22:25
Another Polish super agent who was working for the British was Krystyna Skarbek. After her were also modeled some characters in James Bond's books and movies:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krystyna_Skarbek
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2016 at 22:17
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Mosquito, though much important information was coming through Polish agents we should forget these things tended to be a joint effort. For instance, without funding and other resources from Poland's allies what position would they have been in to take part? It has been stated that about 43% of reports received by British intelligence from continental Europe were from Polish agents. However as it has already been noted agents in France tended to be French. The significance being the huge number of reports of French origin being passed on to Polish handlers who then passed them on to British intelligence. This doesn't in any way make the Polish handlers/operatives any less brave because they aren't retrieving the vast majority of the information themselves. They were still being hunted by the Nazis, and at times being caught.



It doesnt change the fact the for example the Free French were angry that Poles got better intel on the territory of France than they. Or that British services were stealing agents from Polish services.
The best example is Jerzy Iwanow-Szajnowicz who was a Polish secret agent which started working for the British. He was a great agent who himself helped to sunk 2 uboats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerzy_Iwanow-Szajnowicz

And Wiki article doesnt say his story at all. According to Polish book I have read, he was a traitor who started working for the British.






Edited by Mosquito - 23-Apr-2016 at 22:22
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2016 at 08:18
Originally posted by J.A.W.

Britain's spy organisation goes back centuries, beyond Q.E.I's Francis Walsingham..
& their remit of infiltration throughout - was part of the reason for the "Perfidious Albion!" jibe.
I'd wager a jibe most intelligence organizations around the world would wear as a badge of honour no doubt. LOL Saying that the actual jibe, J.A.W., as you may have already realized is one, historically speaking, made by your enemy or those with a grudge. Also, "perfidious" originally was used by many to describe many other nations. Btw, British only goes back to 1603.Smile

Originally posted by J.A.W.

Stalin had learned from captured British operatives - in his security role post WW I, to coordinate 
a multi-pronged approach, combining Military/Agency professionals with both paid/compromised foreign traitor/double agents, & ideological 'moles' with longitudinal pathways to career infiltration, from tertiary education onwards..

The British 'establishment' culture ironically favoured this, & when the boss himself of the organisation 
is a traitor/spy he does the job - even more smoothly, as this cannot ever be admitted/revealed..
..except - as in the the case of the Nazi Abwehr & Canaris, with his sabotage exposed post war..

Stalin himself, being fairly suspicious by nature, habitually reserved acting on intel' from a single source,
& usually required confirmation from various independent sources prior to taking meaningful action on it.

Stalin would also 'purge' & 'liquidate' his own security services, & en-mass, as only a harsh dictator could..
People suffering from paranoia, J.A.W. It's a destructive force on the person suffering from it, but as witnessed with both Stalin and Hitler has huge consequences on others. 

Originally posted by J.A.W.

Mind you, recent 'waterboarding' type 'interrogation' practices have little on the practices of the 
notorious British WW II Col' Scotland at the Tower of London..
.. let alone the post-war Jewish operatives of any organisation, Communist bloc, Zionist/Israeli, or even within Western Allied de-Nazification squads..
The jury is still out on this one. Personally, I'm not keen on torture.
Scotland was accused by a number of prisoners of the London Cage of extracting confessions by torture. Prior to publication of London Cage, MI5 pointed out that Scotland had detailed repeated breaches of the Geneva convention, and had admitted "that prisoners had been forced to kneel while being beaten about the head; forced to stand to attention for up to 26 hours; threatened with execution; or threatened with 'an unnecessary operation'." Publication of the book was delayed for years, and these details were excised.[1]

In London Cage, Scotland vigorously denied that violence was used against prisoners, and that confessions were obtained by seizing upon discrepancies in the accounts of prisoners. "We were not so foolish as to imagine that petty violence, nor even violence of a stronger character, was likely to produce the results hoped for in dealing with some of the toughest creatures of the Hitler regime."[25]

While denying "sadism", Scotland said things were done that were "mentally just as cruel". One "cheeky and obstinate" prisoner, he said, was forced to strip naked and exercise. This "deflated him completely" and he began to talk. Prisoners were sometimes forced to stand "round the clock", and "if a prisoner wanted to pee he had to do it there and then, in his clothes. It was surprisingly effective."[26]

Scotland refused to allow Red Cross inspections at the London Cage, on the grounds that the prisoners there were neither civilians or criminals within the armed services.[27]

In September 1940, Guy Liddell, director of MI5's counterintelligence B Division, said that he had been told by an officer present at the interrogation that Scotland had punched the jaw of a captured German agent at the London Cage. The agent was Wulf Schmidt, known by the code name "Tate." Liddell said in a diary entry that Scotland was "hitting TATE in the jaw and I think got one back himself." Liddell said: "Apart from the moral aspects of the thing, I am convinced that these Gestapo methods do not pay in the long run." Liddell said that "Scotland turned up this morning with a syringe containing some drug or other, which it was thought would induce the prisoner [Tate] to speak."[28][29] Schmidt subsequently became a double agent against the Germans as part of the Double Cross System of double agents operated by MI5.[29]

In 1943, allegations of mistreatment at the London Cage resulted in a formal protest to the Secretary of State for War by MI5 director Maxwell Knight.[citation needed] The allegations were made by Otto Witt, a German anti-Nazi who was interrogated to determine if he was acting on behalf of German intelligence.[30]

At his war crimes trial, SS General Fritz Knoechlein claimed that he was tortured, which Scotland dismisses in London Cage as a "lame allegation".[19] According to Knoechlein, he was stripped, deprived of sleep, kicked by guards and starved. He said that he was compelled to walk in a tight circle for four hours. After complaining to Scotland, Knoechlein alleges that he was doused in cold water, pushed down stairs, and beaten. He claimed he was forced to stand beside a hot gas stove before being showered with cold water. He claimed that he and another prisoner were forced to run in circles while carrying heavy logs.[1]

"Since these tortures were the consequences of my personal complaint, any further complaint would have been senseless," Knoechlein wrote. "One of the guards who had a somewhat humane feeling advised me not to make any more complaints, otherwise things would turn worse for me." Other prisoners, he alleged, were beaten until they begged to be killed, while some were told that they could be made to disappear.[1]

Scotland said in his memoirs that Knoechlein was not interrogated at all at the London Cage because there was sufficient evidence to convict him, and he wanted "no confusing documents with the aid of which he might try to wriggle from the net." During his last nights at the cage, Scotland states, Knoechlein "began shrieking in a half-crazed fashion, so that the guards at the London Cage were at a loss to know how to control him. At one stage the local police called in to enquire why such a din was emanating from sedate Kensington Palace Gardens."[19]

At a trial in 1947 of eighteen Nazis accused in the massacre of fifty Allied prisoners who escaped from Stalag Luft III, the Germans alleged starvation, sleep deprival, "third degree" interrogation methods, and torture by electric shock. Scotland describes these in his memoir as "fantastic allegations." "At more than one stage in those fifty days of courtroom wrangling, a stranger to such peculiar affairs might have suspected that the arch-criminal of them all was a British Army intelligence officer known as Colonel Alexander Scotland."[31]

Scotland denied the allegations at the trial. In London Cage he says he was "greatly troubled. . . by the constant focus on our supposed shortcomings at The Cage, for it seemed to me that these manufactured tales of cruelty toward our German prisoners were fast becoming the chief item of news, while the brutal fate of those fifty RAF officers was in danger of becoming old history."[32]

http://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Scotland#Torture_allegations


Originally posted by J.A.W.

As for being "actors/liars" well, many such 'professionals' were/are of course, law graduates..

& likely, many a usefully employed ex-Nazi/SD operative was told.. "Love your work",
by a colleague/boss during the 'cold war' - even if they they might later be turned in, per Klaus Barbie..

Hans Kammler though, being a much bigger fish, remains on the QT.. even today..

Is that a rebuttal, J.A.W., towards law graduates? LOL I guess that's a matter of opinion. Smile Anyhow, J.A.W. acting out a part convincingly enough is persuading the observer that what they are experiencing is true when it isn't. An analogy of the term acting and lying. 

Originally posted by J.A.W.

Alan Turing too, although very useful with his splendid programmable electronic computer development,
was deemed a 'liability' due to his ( then illegal) 'homosexual propensities', & may've got the 'chop'..
..with this used as a pretext.. ( & what about James Forrestal? Was he an early MK Ultra victim?)..
I have a huge respect for Alan Turing and am not totally convinced on the official account of his death, but maybe I'm jaded by many such accounts of others factual and fictional. Btw, J.A.W., apart from the official account there two alternatives. One as you've stated, the hit, but the other is simply exposure to cyanide which occurred a lot in his experiments. 
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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