Little Turkey in the middle of Europe

I doubt they have enough money to buy villas and properties in the rich and valuable area of France.

If they want their commiesblock cities to split for independance, I'm gladly for, those area are poor, have a high crime rate, woman can be burned alive with alcohol if they refuse to wear a veil (it happened). Let's put bordeline and leave them in quarantine.

Edited by Exarchus

Originally posted by Exarchus I doubt they have enough money to buy villas and properties in the rich and valuable area of France. If they want their commiesblock cities to split for independance, I'm gladly for, those area are poor, have a high crime rate, woman can be burned alive with alcohol if they refuse to wear a veil (it happened). Let's put bordeline and leave them in quarantine.

What are you talking on about? did you read what I wrote at all?

Originally posted by Seko Breaking up countires for the sake of minorities sounds rediculous. If I ran any of those european countries I would not give land for the sake of pacifying or granting lands to an isolated ethnic population. Each country should, and most do, allow all ethnic minorities to become citizens of the country they live�in. All you need is to meet the�necessary legal requirements.

I couldn't agree more but as one knows.. "Turkey,Iran,Syria - Kurds"," and after that it will be some other minority.. and so on..... and similarly in other countries of course, so why not do the same for europe?

Ok, I'll make my point clearer.

The Turkish minorities claim and independant country in Europe. But where? They live in poor commiesblock area. They'll never be able to claim Nice or Biarritz because there might be (not even sure) a couple of Turks there.

There country will be poor, ugly and in chaos. It would be a huge commiesblock land, in the middle of nowhere and certainly without anything of interests or beautyfull around. The other european countries would certainly put borderlines around it to avoid problems. Which is why I say they'll be in quarantine.

It's hard to follow a logical scenario since your sole idea of a mini Turkey in Europe is in essence plainly stupid.

Edited by Exarchus

I think the OP is confusing immigrant populations with national minorities.

I don't think you can just move to another country and then claim you're a national minority. correct me if i'm wrong.

Yeah, and your grandfather was also a pasha right? Not very representative of the average Turks. Turks (who are a small minority in France) are not a high class one. Far from this.

Yep,my fathers side is direct from Byzantine emperor meaning that we have papers of ownership is Turkey and thrace.. your papers would not do anything with current land and such....I guess its a good collectors thing though.

It assumes that Turks in Europe are always concentrated in certain areas, which is not always the case, and ignores that many of them have married locals (why would they want a seperate state?).

In places where you do have high concentrations of Turks who keep to themselves, these are typicly poorer areas of the city, sometimes with higher unemployment. For those areas to break away would leave them functionaly disconected to the local economies upon which they depend, leaving them worse off economicly.

In sort, the geography of Turks in Europe is not conductive to this sort of outcome.
If on the other hand you had enire regions where Turks made up a significant poportion of most if not all economic niches, then you'd be in business.

5800 in the UK seems very low. Hmm, most Turks in the UK are Cypriots, and generaly arn't counted seperatly on the national level (usualy only local councils bother), so could it be that this figure is only for Turks who have moved from Turkey?
Also there are roughly 300-350 thousand Turks in the Netherlands according to most recent Dutch statistics figures, but that tends to include people who are only half Turkish too (one parent born abroad makes you a forigner and you are labeled by the country that parent comes from on the census).
So i guess i'm asking is what data is being used here?
Hmm, maybe its citizenship, most Brit-Cypriot Turks are fully British citizens, and many Dutch ones are too.



Edited by Cywr

Just for arguments sake, I'll take this idea serious, even if it isn't:

Has actually anybody asked the Turkish immigrants themselves if the want to swap the security of relatively decent and stable economic and social systems of Western Europe for the adventure of an own state?
Or has anybody asked the many Turks that have become smoothly integrated into the societies of Western Europe and take a very active part in their political and cultural life, if they would like to live in an exclusively Turkish society?
Or has anybody asked the many Turks, who do not want to root themselves in Western Europe but only regard their stay as temporary?

However, to equal the situation of Turkish immigrants into Western Europe with the situation of Ethnic minorities in Turkey is, historical, social, cultural and political nonsense, and somebody alledgedly interested in history should know better.

"Exarchus" actually.. bulgaria is not in europe but they've accepted to pay rent.. (as lands consitute to half of Sofia..)

Has actually anybody asked the Turkish immigrants themselves if the want to swap the security of relatively decent and stable economic and social systems of Western Europe for the adventure of an own state? Or has anybody asked the many Turks that have become smoothly integrated into the societies of Western Europe and take a very active part in their political and cultural life, if they would like to live in an exclusively Turkish society? Or has anybody asked the many Turks, who do not want to root themselves in Western Europe but only regard their stay as temporary?

There has never been any thought into it, nor has there been any type of activity, or any lobbying to do so... I really don't know what might happen..
Security of turks in Europe, that must be relative to who's looking in to it.. as I recall germany..a few years back.. Stability can easily be obtained by clearing out the creases of some islamic 'activists' that europe fails to surrender..
Temporary turks.. well if you bring a land that is turkish to them.. 'state' then I would think they would stay

However, to equal the situation of Turkish immigrants into Western Europe with the situation of Ethnic minorities in Turkey is, historical, social, cultural and political nonsense, and somebody alledgedly interested in history should know better.

" Minorities in a country call themselves minorities only because of another nations politics. " - remmember these words as a golden rule

examples with Turkey ;

1. Ottoman empire period (x - 1923),
       
     War with Russia, and russians to divert the Ottoman forces in Europe to the East and cause havok.. started politics in sort of sympathizing with the armenians, and telling them that they are not free they are a minority, and they deserve better (in essence brainwashing in modern sense with various forms as simple people believe what they are told and don't question that much on its rightness) and also of course that they would support them against the Ottoman monster.. made agreements with them, provided weapons and finance..
But when the Ottomans turned on them the Russians faded away.. Which all resulted in the excecution of the heads and members of gangs that killed and ramsacked whole villages in the area's,(under treason against their own country in time of war) and the total exile of these people into an area that they wouldnt cause any more trouble..

These people were not a minority at all, in fact they considered themselves as turks of armenian origin, they lived in harmony mainly were in the high rich society, including places of command, control of treasury and advizories of the Emperor. Due to others of their origin they all suffered the consequences of another countries politics..

    
2) Modern day Turkey, Turkish Republic (1923- xx)

    Turkish recovery from the fall of the empire, and for the turks never to regain a strenght many fantasies have been played out.. with minorities.. Latest is the Kurds so let me start with them.

    1. Kurds like the armenians before them up till the past decade never considered themselves as anything other than turkish, they didnt even look at themselves as a minority at all, they lived in harmony like all other people in eastern and in west locations of Turkey, they are poor kurds and very rich ones also.. so take the general.., I think it was in the '80's when began politics of some European countries,(France,Italy,England I know for sure the rest don't know) they financed openly and supplied arms to various groups or families of people who could believe their politics in the East and Central Turkey.. so these people considering themselves formed an ideological army which was supposed to fight the Enemy, Turks (not differentiating between origin) but this interested other nations that also wanted to use them in some sense for support of their ideologies.. A powerfull Turkey is somehow not in the interest of other nations, so the arabs joined in by looking the other way, the greeks joined in by providing education of equipment and tactics to these people...

Now, this is how to support a group then really f.. it up, this 'army' began terrorizing eastern Turkey, planting bombs, blowing up soldiers in garnisons, blowing up innocent people, killing any civilian in villages around that area.. This led to the instability of the area such that people in the area began to be afraid of each other.. would my neigbor be a terrorist? Then as things go on.. terrorist began using villagers for supplies.. what can a villager do if someone comes up to you with an automatic rifle and says give me food or I'll rape your daughter,wife.. and kill you all.. nothing.. but the turkish army didnt really consider these things (and this is the only mistakes they made..) they took in these villagers for providing support to terrorists.. and locked them up..
These actions caused the escalation of hatred in the area against the army, and the so called Kurdish National Army gained more supporters... The turkish army, declared war, and condition red in these regions.. and after a loss of 30 000 civilians and about 5000 or so troops to these 'Kurds' the army won..
Countries that hid the leader of this so called PKK- army was jogged him around.. causing mass rejection of trade with these countries at that time.. for they financed the death of over 35000 turkish civilians..
SO in the end.. now the same dilemma.. The kurds consider themselves a minority and Turks of different origins look at them as potential terrorists..

Now the latest news, is the re-placing and bringing in kurdish voters in irak to gain majority for an autonomous state in nothern irak, where technically they shouldn't be the absolute majority.. as saddam killed them off.. so.. you see the state was formed after all..

Turkish military head, declared that the formation of kurdistan in the area is reason of war, that was 2-4 years ago I think.

   Now the Americans joined in the party with the Jews, and they're providing the weapons and finance so that the kurds can kill of the turkmens, and the arabs in the area.. and again in Turkey we can hear exploding of bombs...

   So history repeated itself and only a century later..

2.The next probable turkish people of different origin to become a minority is most probably Pontus-Rum, they're in the nothern central coast of turkey, they are a funny, good and nice people, with a medium income-levels ... I would have said the greeks, but our relations with them are growing well and thats good.. we shall see..
Another probabilty is in the south where there are a mixture of arabic origin turks.. maybe they can be financed

   You see such things are just politics, and result in nothing but destruction and death of innocents.. yes its great to work for your countries beliefs and nationalizm, and pretend to be peacefull and democratic.. and keep your dirty hands in someone elses back garden... but such things lead to war. And in war everybody looses..

Want to hear another minority? the late Arafat's own words.. " We are paying for the crimes we committed against the ottomans.. " they sold us out to the english.. now the place where they were the majority has become Isreal and they are the minority....

Another advice, Don't believe anything I tell you here, look it all up... but with this method of looking....

let's say a war in a period..
    1. look at recitements of both sides of the conflict of the time.
    2. look at 3rd countries reports news at the time.
    3. look at history that has been writen of the event a time later by another x country thats not biased..
    4. then take the middle and similarities to be true.. throw the rest away..


SO now.. you see why not make the turks or any other variable European of different origin into a minority? and do similar things as the EU or the UN does in the middle east ? I dont need to look at history to see that reality is bendable to fit the situation..

Originally posted by baracuda "Exarchus" actually.. bulgaria is not in europe but they've accepted to pay rent.. (as lands consitute to half of Sofia..) Has actually anybody asked the Turkish immigrants themselves if the want to swap the security of relatively decent and stable economic and social systems of Western Europe for the adventure of an own state? Or has anybody asked the many Turks that have become smoothly integrated into the societies of Western Europe and take a very active part in their political and cultural life, if they would like to live in an exclusively Turkish society? Or has anybody asked the many Turks, who do not want to root themselves in Western Europe but only regard their stay as temporary? There has never been any thought into it, nor has there been any type of activity, or any lobbying to do so... I really don't know what might happen.. Security of turks in Europe, that must be relative to who's looking in to it.. as I recall germany..a few years back.. Stability can easily be obtained by clearing out the creases of some islamic 'activists' that europe fails to surrender.. Temporary turks.. well if you bring a land that is turkish to them.. 'state' then I would think they would stay However, to equal the situation of Turkish immigrants into Western Europe with the situation of Ethnic minorities in Turkey is, historical, social, cultural and political nonsense, and somebody alledgedly interested in history should know better. " Minorities in a country call themselves minorities only because of another nations politics. " - remmember these words as a golden rule examples with Turkey ; 1. Ottoman empire period (x - 1923),              War with Russia, and russians to divert the Ottoman forces in Europe to the East and cause havok.. started politics in sort of sympathizing with the armenians, and telling them that they are not free they are a minority, and they deserve better (in essence brainwashing in modern sense with various forms as simple people believe what they are told and don't question that much on its rightness) and also of course that they would support them against the Ottoman monster.. made agreements with them, provided weapons and finance.. But when the Ottomans turned on them the Russians faded away.. Which all resulted in the excecution of the heads and members of gangs that killed and ramsacked whole villages in the area's,(under treason against their own country in time of war) and the total exile of these people into an area that they wouldnt cause any more trouble.. These people were not a minority at all, in fact they considered themselves as turks of armenian origin, they lived in harmony mainly were in the high rich society, including places of command, control of treasury and advizories of the Emperor. Due to others of their origin they all suffered the consequences of another countries politics..      2) Modern day Turkey, Turkish Republic (1923- xx)     Turkish recovery from the fall of the empire, and for the turks never to regain a strenght many fantasies have been played out.. with minorities.. Latest is the Kurds so let me start with them.     1. Kurds like the armenians before them up till the past decade never considered themselves as anything other than turkish, they didnt even look at themselves as a minority at all, they lived in harmony like all other people in eastern and in west locations of Turkey, they are poor kurds and very rich ones also.. so take the general.., I think it was in the '80's when began politics of some European countries,(France,Italy,England I know for sure the rest don't know) they financed openly and supplied arms to various groups or families of people who could believe their politics in the East and Central Turkey.. so these people considering themselves formed an ideological army which was supposed to fight the Enemy, Turks (not differentiating between origin) but this interested other nations that also wanted to use them in some sense for support of their ideologies.. A powerfull Turkey is somehow not in the interest of other nations, so the arabs joined in by looking the other way, the greeks joined in by providing education of equipment and tactics to these people...

Links about the Hellenic assistance to the Kurds and texts.