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Support the Return of the Parthenon Marbles

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  Quote Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Support the Return of the Parthenon Marbles
    Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 00:14
Imagine archaeologists from a foreign country coming to Great Britain centuries from now and excavate. They discover artifacts like the hands of Big Ben, blocks from Stonehenge, or fragments of the Tower of London's walls, priceless artifacts from Britain's history. These foreign archaeologists then take these artifacts back to their own country.

How would that make you feel? I would imagine this is what the Greeks feel about the Parthenon marbles.
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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 02:02

 Theres nothing more special about this than any number of other things in museums around the world that countries want back this is one in countless numbers.

 Does Greece have anything that belonged to another country? Im pretty sure it does somewhere but I personally dont see them going out of their way to give them back.

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 03:26

Excuse me, but have you actually read the previous posts? The issue is not that of artifacts belonging to a museum in a foreign country, that fact is acceptable by everyone. It's a museum's mission to promote knowledge, after all. However there're exceptions to this rule and here we reffer exactly to one of these exceptions, that has to do first with the nature of the antiquities in question (architectural parts of a whole) and secondly to the fact that they were unlawfully obtained (even if the Greek side does not want to make this a court case but a friendly settlement).

 

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  Quote Menippos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 06:32
Indeed. These marbles were removed from where they stood for two millennia. They were not discovered, dug out or salvaged amongst debris. They were dismantled and unhinged from their original place and carried away as a present for a personal private collection.
This is the argument that the request for their return is based upon.
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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2005 at 13:29

 I wouldnt hold my breath on Greece getting them back, id be more happy they staying here, who wouldnt? they are an excellent addition to any museum.

 After 170 years of wanting them back, its not happened, I see no reason why that should be changed now in the minds of the decision makers, the same argument about their unlawful removal has been argued for 170 years didnt convince them then shouldnt really convince them now.

 However after much thought, since Britain and Greece have a strong relationship of mutual respect and friendship in the cause of that continuing friendship, I personally would support the idea of the return of the Elgin marbles assuming something significant could be arranged and agreed in compensation to the museum like what the Greeks have offered. Even though id prefer they stay here it is probably right that these marbles return to their homeland.

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  Quote Menippos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jul-2005 at 04:36
Times-a-changing...

I suggest this compensation: Free coffee to all British tourists for one Olympiad.
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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jul-2005 at 17:39

Originally posted by Menippos

Times-a-changing...

I suggest this compensation: Free coffee to all British tourists for one Olympiad.

.....in that case Marbles? what Marbles?

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  Quote Menippos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jul-2005 at 19:23
I had suspected that you had lost them, and now I am absolutely certain...
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 15:21
I think all museums must return the stolen artifacts that they have. If someone wants to learn about history of Greece, Egypt and of any other country he must take a trip there and not in London or Paris.
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  Quote Ironheart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2005 at 17:05
Originally posted by Heraclius

 I wouldnt hold my breath on Greece getting them back, id be more happy they staying here, who wouldnt? they are an excellent addition to any museum.

 After 170 years of wanting them back, its not happened, I see no reason why that should be changed now in the minds of the decision makers, the same argument about their unlawful removal has been argued for 170 years didnt convince them then shouldnt really convince them now.

 However after much thought, since Britain and Greece have a strong relationship of mutual respect and friendship in the cause of that continuing friendship, I personally would support the idea of the return of the Elgin marbles assuming something significant could be arranged and agreed in compensation to the museum like what the Greeks have offered. Even though id prefer they stay here it is probably right that these marbles return to their homeland.

I think the brits should return them.  I think they plundered enough of the world's antiquities and other resources for that matter.

Cherio ol chap!

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  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2005 at 09:56
The same problem is with Mauseleum and Trojan treasures. It's better they return to Turkey one day...
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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 21:32
Originally posted by Ironheart

I think the brits should return them.  I think they plundered enough of the world's antiquities and other resources for that matter.

Cherio ol chap!

 America and oil anyone?

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  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2005 at 15:00
Originally posted by Menippos

Times-a-changing...

I suggest this compensation: Free coffee to all British tourists for one Olympiad.


you mean free tea
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2005 at 10:39

Indirectly relevant:

Greece demands 'stolen artefacts'
Greece is renewing calls for the return of artefacts from Los Angeles' J Paul Getty Museum it claims were stolen, according to the Los Angeles Times.

The request follows the museum's agreement to return three antiquities to Italy that were allegedly stolen.

Former Getty curator Marion True has denied criminal charges of conspiracy to receive stolen goods and illegal receipt of archaeological artefacts

The four artefacts disputed by Greece date from about 400BC.

They include a gold funerary wreath, an inscribed tombstone and a marble torso, which were bought by the museum for $5.2m (2.9m) in 1993.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/4374132.stm

Also yesterday, London's mayor Mr. Livingston, reiterated his support for the return of the Parthenon Marbles, after his meeting with PASOK party leader Mr. Papandreou. "London Olympics 2012, would be an ideal date for such a move, which would further srengther the ties betwwen the two countries and its people."

 

 

 

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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 18:24

I believe the Heritage Secretary during Margaret thatcher's time actually answered this question when asked and he replied. "We'll return the Elgin Marble's when the French return the Bayeux Tapestry"

Still it's an interesting question, the British Museum does have a lot of the world's treasures, often obtained by dubious means. One such collection is the finest collection of Samurai swords outside Japan..... it's illegal to export a sword from Japan, if you have an antique one and take it in, they won't let you take it out again............ however despite differences the Japanese and the British museum came to an arrangement and the collection spends half it's time in Japan now. Perhaps a sensible arrangement could be made with the Greek government.

It's also worth pointing a vastly superior to the Elgin Marbles is the Pergamon in Berlin and compared to the British Empire the Austro-Hungarians were practically robber barons and stripped Italy of most of it's Roman and Venician treasures all in Vienna now.

 



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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2005 at 13:03
I would think some sort of deal should be worked out, but as many have noted, I do not have any hope in that happening soon.
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  Quote Ellinas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Dec-2005 at 06:37

The British museum is full of accecories from Greece, Egypt, Italy, India, China etc. etc. Most of them bringed to England at the age of their empire.  If they do the ''right thing'' and start returning, their museum is going to be empty.

In other words don't see the marbles coming back in the near future.



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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 08:22

Some news on the Parthenon Sculptures:  A German University is about to return a part of a sculpture that is under its possession. British Museum will hopefully follow soon enough!

 

Pressure over Elgin Marbles as piece of the Parthenon goes back to Greece
By Hannah Cleaver in Berlin
(Filed: 11/01/2006)

Greece announced yesterday that a German university intended to return a piece of the Parthenon, increasing pressure on the British Museum to do the same with the Elgin marbles.

According to the Greek culture ministry, Heidelberg University was "disposed" to give back the heel of a male depicted in the frieze which originally adorned the Parthenon.

It said the assurance had been given to the Greek prime minister, Kostas Karamanlis, by the university's vice chancellor Angelos Haniotis, who is of Greek origin.

A ministry statement said the university's offer to hand back the heel was "judged as a measure of exceptional symbolic importance in so far as it is the first part of the Parthenon frieze returned to Greece".

The ministry added that the university considered the return of the artefact "a matter of duty towards humanity".

Much of the eastern frieze of the Parthenon, which stands on the Acropolis overlooking Athens, was removed by Lord Elgin in 1806, while Greece was dominated by the Ottoman empire. He later sold the marbles to the British Museum.

The Greek government has been demanding that Britain return them for more than two decades.

The Heidelberg heel comes from the north section of the Parthenon frieze, a 525-foot strip of marble slabs decorated in relief with figures from a religious procession.

Parts of the Parthenon sculptures are also held in the Louvre in Paris and in museums in the Vatican, Vienna, Munich, Copenhagen and Palermo.

The Parthenon temple on the Acropolis, dedicated to Athena, goddess of wisdom, was built between 447 and 432 BC.

Such is the sensitivity surrounding the topic that Heidelberg University refused to confirm or deny the report yesterday.

Mr Haniotis also declined to comment.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/01 /11/welgin11.xml

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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 11:19

If Britain does return the marbles it would also be funny. I get the impression while Greeks have heard about them, they haven't actually seen them.

The Pergamon in Berlin is stunning, the marbles in the British museum aren't, to say the least.

You go into the museum and walk past the pretty amazing Sumerian, Assyrian and Persian stuff, and thensee the marbles, and beside what you've just seen you're just totally underwelmed. You think, all that fuss about a few badly damaged pretty run of the mill statues.  

I think if ever they are returned to Greece a lot of Greeks are in for a surprise and will wonder what all the fuss was about. 

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 11:27

I know they're in a terrible state, I've seen the pictures. Some say that this is the result of their "maintenance" or "cleaning efforts" while in the Brutish Museum. But I also realize that they gather huge crowds and are the most visited exhibit along with the Egyptian sector. Is that correct Paul?

 

Btw, if they're so crappy indeed, then the BM should give our damn marbles back and spare the unnecessary fuzz. After all we're willing to replace them with, eeeehm, shinier artifacts

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