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    Posted: 19-Dec-2015 at 23:55
Just wanted to see what we have so far just on the asiatic lion, via asias continent only, it seems the media is missing alot of information that seems both america-english and even some indian mainstream news are oblivious to about the history of the asiatic lion:

India

Male asiatic lion
 
Jam saheb of nawanagar:

In fact, the forest cover was so thick even in the 15th and 16th centuries A D. that 
wild elephants buffaloes, lions and tigers were hunted in the upper Ganga plains 
(Abul Fazal, Ain-I-Akbari, pp. 283-93).
 
 
Animals could be sign-ifiers of the forest landscape, with Sanskrit pharmacopeias placing the lion at the apex in the aranya or forest and man
 

Among wild animals, one of the most familiar to the poets of the Rigveda is the 
lion (simha)
. They describe him as living ... The king of beasts has, however, 
remained ... The tiger is not mentioned in the Rigveda at all, its natural home 
being the swampy jungles of Bengal, though he is now found in all the jungly 
parts of India.
 

The Indian lion is one of the rarest and most important of the animals of India, and yet it is one of the least known. ... middle of the last century a certain "sportsman" shot over 300 of them, fifty of which were in the neighbourhood of Delhi No fewer than eighty lions were killed within three years by another "sportsman"... Lacking the cunning of the tiger and its preference for thick habitat, the lion fell an easy victim to sportsmen, especially
 
 
So most likely with the lion killed off by the hunters in each century, the tiger slowly crept west slinking through the jungles almost un-noticed taking up the lands of the former.
 
It is observable from the experince of that country, that where there are lions a tiger is  scarcley ever seen; so that one has to suspect the former has the mastery. The tiger exceeds in bulk and appearnt strength the asiatic lion. It has not the same elastic gait and I should think there may be, a vivacity in the courage of the lion which might alone render the neighbourhood uncomfortable to the tiger, though he were essentially stronger. The natives evidently believe in the superiority of the lion; for in those parts where we have been sporting they have no name for the animal but bura sheer, the greater tiger
 
 
The Field in 19th century gave the credit of elimination of the lion in India to the 
tiger 
He mentioned that the tiger is physically superior to the lion and should be 
regarded as the king of beasts. This only sounds hypothetical and imaginary as 
in reality the tiger has nothing to do with the extinction of the lion. Mr. R.I. Pocock
 
Thus the lion and the tiger entered India by different routes — the lion from the west, the tiger from the east; and since the tiger spread all over South India, which the lion failed to reach, it is probable that the tiger's invasion of the country preceded the lion's.  In that case the lion made its way into Northern India and multiplied exceedingly despite the tiger being already in occupation of the country. Moreover, the average, if not absolute, difference between the animals in habitat makes it unlikely that the tigers waged organized warfare against the lions, or that combats between individuals, in which the tigers were victorious,were sufficiently frequent to lessen appreciably the number of lions, may be dismissed as fanciful, because an encounter would just as likely end in mutual avoidance as in a fight, and in the event of a fight the lion's chance of success, would, so far as anything is •known to the contrary, be as good as the tiger's. Hence there does not appear to be an item of evidence that the tiger played even a subordinate part in the extermination of the lion in India.
 
The asiatic lion was known to kill the siberian tiger when they roamed farther north of india:
Page

The ganges-yamuna:
 
They described the tigers, lions, and wild elephants in the thick jungles on the 
banks of the Ganges. They said that "in the Ganges Valley, the people are 
numerous and happy." Harsha was so kind a king, the scholars reported, that he 
did not 
 

Historical writings indicate that wild elephants, buffaloes, bison, rhinoceroses, 
lions, and tigers were hunted in the Ganga- Yamuna region in the 16th and 17th 
centuries
 
 
Lions in the distant pass took ovet the ganges plains, as one of the oldest artifacts was a golden goblet with a lion on it, and a professor there states the older writings were more so of lions and not tigers:
 
twenty five years back, lion, occured in many parts of the country, like 
Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Gujrat, Maharashtra etc.
 Then it disappeared, quickly 
and not gradually. The causes of the disappearance of the lion from these places, 
could be man made...
 
 
This is an outdated graph and doesnt show nearly half the old ranges of the lion in india, but still it should have been likely they would be many in quanity of each area:
 
(from the old wikipedia)
 
 
As I said, gujurat had given lions before:
 
 
Jim corbett:

who says:
 
According to Jim Corbett, "the tiger is lentleman". an (Panthera Leo) ) lion is truly 
the king of the beasts
 
 
The Bengal lion has the mane magnificently developed, attains a very large stature, and displays equal courage with that of its African relative
 
 
 
and the dimensions of the skulls indicate that the Indian lion is of much the same size as the African animal, and the tiger.
 
 

Asiatic lion
 
A common belief in India, even amongst some Indian forest servicemen, is that the tiger came into conflict with the lion and was finally defeated by it and exterminated. Nothing could be further from the truth. Of the two, the lion is the older resident of India, and has a preference for a habitat which consists of open grassland and scrub or dry deciduous forest, whereas the habitat of the tiger varies from dry or moist deciduous forest with tall grass to wet tropical evergreen forest; the animal is also found in temperate montane forests of colder regions. The tiger readily takes to water, but not the lion. The tiger never existed in the Gir Forest There is no doubt that the lion came into clash with man and his livestock wherever he was found. Man has done his utmost to destroy the lion. However this attitude is now happily disappearing and giving way to a genuine concern for the preservation.


Asiatic male lion:
 
In the last century, lions wore quite numerous in the Gangetic basin of th Uttar Pradesh. It is a historical fact that the Moghul Emperor Babar used to hunt lions in the forests along the Jumna River between Delhi and Agra.There is a belief that the Indian lion is the original inhabitant of India and not the tiger. The tiger came into India later. This is supported by the fact that in the early Arayan literature 'singh', which is the name for lion, is mentioned and there is no mention anywhere of 'sher', or tiger. Also the carvings and statues in our ancient temples and palaces are of the lion and not of the tiger.
 
As mitra states lions are older in indias mythology
 
Lions were indigenous to india
 
Indigenous
 
 
On one side are the scenes of a fight between a lioness and a tiger, a lion 
divouring an antilope and a lion killing a boar
. On the other side, are seen the 
struggles between a lion and a swords-man two stags ramming each other and a 
lion ...
 
 
The indian literature has volumes of prasie for the lion, not only the sanskrit literature but the Pali and Prakrat literature as well the latter literature of regional languages had an unparlleled praise for the grace of lion. Lion is profusely . depicted in Indian art and sculpture. In comparison to lion tiger had drawn lesser attention of the Indian intellegentia. The result was the lion 
became synonymous with royal power....
 
 
The Asiatic lion, for example, is displayed in Van Vihar because its historic range included the state
 
Lions were once inhabitants of the Gangis-basin through the 16th century:
 

 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K._A._Nilakanta_Sastri 

"References to the lion in the Padirruppattu, one to the dread of other animals in mountain slopes haunted by lions, and the other to the lion killing the tiger. 

http://www.google.com/search?q=mountain+slopes+haunted+by+lions%2C+and+the+other+to+the+lion+killing+the+tiger+and+&tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search

A romance of Mughal times 
A lion is a more formidable foe than a tiger, who, after all, is a cowardly beast. Macmillan, 1926 - 194 pages 
http://books.google.com/books?id=DNtiOF9nBwkC&q=mahouts+lion+tiger+fight&dq=mahouts+lion+tiger+fight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Wm-QULW-OsjdigKQnIHwBw&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBTgo 



 
http://www.oldindianphotos.in/2010/06/kesri-singh-thakur-of-piploda-1903.html 

“As a normal rule I should expect a lion to be more open and bold than a tiger...“The lions always attacked first” 
http://books.google.com/books?id=kZmnqpT6bycC&pg=PA122&dq=Keshari++singh+The+lion+is+more+bold&hl=en&sa=X&ei=R3BaUfp-kOuKAqfogegB&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ 
The powers of the lion is returning:

(India) 

Indian Expert Damoo Dhotre: 

http://www.circusesandsideshows.com/performers/damudhotre.html 

THE FAMOUS Dhotre, an Indian animal trainer who appeared with many European and American circuses during the 1940s and 1950s was once asked whether a lion or a tiger would win in a battle to the death. Dhotre said he would back a lion. although the tiger is faster, the lion is at least equal in strength. Although the tiger is as fierce and savage as any animal in the jungle the lion has boundless courage" he said in his memoirs in 1961 The heavy mane around the lion's neck also makes it difficult for another animal to grip the lion's throat with his teeth, according to Dhotre. 
http://www.google.com/search?q=THE+FAMOUS+Dhotre%2C+an+Indian+animal+trainer+lion+tiger++site%3Anews.google.com%2Fnewspapers&ie=ISO-8859-1&source=newspapers 

Singh hari shanka: 
 
"Jam Sahib of Nawanagar has informed me that he has himself witnessed a fight between a lion and a tiger on four occasions, on all of which the lion won." 

~Journal of the Bombay Natural History Society 
http://www.google.com/search?q=Jam%20sahib%20of%20Nawanagar%20has%20informed%20me%20that%20he%20has%20himself%20witnessed%20a%20fight%20between%20a%20lion%20and%20a%20tiger%20on%20four%20occasions,%20on%20all%20which%20the%20lion%20won.&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&tbo=1 
The tiger is known to be inferior in position to the lion. It is also stated that the king should promote the soldiers' strength and valour by organising hunting excursions against tigers and big game. Thus we read that, just as even the tiger* and the elephant cannot govern the lion, the king of beasts, so all the councillors combined are unable to control the king, who acts at his own sweet will. 
http://books.google.com/books?id=I8krAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA246&dq=the+tiger+was+never+a+symbol+lion+tamil&hl=en&sa=X&ei=H6pJVKu5MbeUsQTQ4oCwDQ&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA

 

“many familys adopted the title singh to symbolize power and strength… the tiger was never considered as a title in indiaraises the question of predominance of the lion over the tiger" 

http://books.google.com/books?id=J0rME6RjC1sC&pg=PA38&dq=strength+the+tiger+was+never+considered+as+a+title+in+india&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IWaYUfb5HeWgiALTloCgAQ&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA

(A page from the mahabarata/War storys) 
 

Alas, like a tiger slain by a lion, or an elephant by an infuriate elephant, that warrior hath. 

http://www.google.com/search?q=Alas%2C+like+a+tiger+slain+by+a+lion%2C+or+an+elephant+by+an+infuriate+elephant%2C+that+warrior+hath&tbo=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&ei=S1tYVLDKCYW0oQS2s4HABg&sa=N 



(Two Kailash sankhala 

 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kailash_Sankhala 

Upon observation, the tiger does not fight as frequent: 
 

States again: "Tigers whos solitary life style (Un-like lions)...does not fight for territorial rights" 
~The Sydney Morning Herald - Sep 10, 1978oung lionesses kill adult white tigress) 


The lion takes over, only in 1972 was the tiger declared Indias national animal at last replacing the lion that was ruled so meaninglessly for more than 2,000 years 
http://books.google.com/books?id=xYi3HztW19YC&pg=PA202&dq=tiger+kailash+sankhala+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sqCRUJrREYbmiwLq2oDQDQ&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBdpiIxMnMM 

 


1851,

Captive conflict accounts:


 
LIONESS KILLS TIGRESS. - NAGPUR, 26TH October. In the Maharaj Bagh, while transferring wild animals from one cage to another, a lioness attacked a tigress and killed her. The animal was subsequently captured and placed in its cage.
 



 

"One of only 70 white tigers left in the world has died a month after being wounded in a fight with two younglions in an Indian zoo. 
Nandan Kanan animal park'
 

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=MWSB&p_theme=mwsb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB82D10F0087120&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM 

Other Pit fights:

ACCOUNTS 


 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma 

Film on a crocodile hunt in Burma and a lion-tiger battle in a river bed were shown. The lion won the fight with the tiger, which is unusual as the tiger usually comes out on top when the two animals meet. 

The Brownsville Herald » 1951 » June » 7 Jun 1951, Thu » Page 7 
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6wvy1w9SDpgJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/23876885/+site:newspapers.com+lion+tiger+battle&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1 



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himalayas 

Scene in the Himalaya Mountains. atlast it mustered its strength and struck the tiger so hard that it fell and soon was dead
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tYhDiHUIMMUJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/28175430/+site:newspapers.com+himalayan+mountains+tiger+struck+lion&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1 

Besides this weird notion, there is also the terrific enthusiasm for
sound. During one of the stretches, the Halliburton voice tells of
looking down into a pit and perceiving an Indian lion, supposed to be
one of the very few in existence, giving battle to a tiger. It is a
thrilling fight, but Mr. Futter has overdone the inoculation of sound.
On other occasions the scenes are silent and later one hears the
breaking of a tree as it is pushed over by an elephant.
http://www.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9D03E5DD1538E333A2575BC0A9639C946294D6CF

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_Speaks

Chinnappa Devar, the South Indian producer, made tigers and lions
fight each other and slaughtered dozens of snakes during the making of
Vellikelamai Vritham

~The illustrated weekly of India
http://www.google.com/search?q=+Vellikelamai+Vritham+lion+tiger+&tbo=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&ei=fm1JVKmPL8-QigKDnIC4Dw&sa=N

Many people state that the lions were just imports and only a handful exist, they were so rare, they couldnt have been indigenous...lets look again why they became rare:

146 MEERUT.

ment in the least disappointed: attendance so often becomes anything but agreeable, verifying the adage, "Too much of one thing." Reviews in the mornings and evenings, levees and seeing barracks, and other interesting sights, occupied our days, and constrained every one to be booted and spurred.

This place is celebrated for its hospitality and gaiety during the winter months. It has a race-course, theatre, and ball-room; and those who reside within convenient distances, generally contrive to come in and mix with their friends during that season of festivity. The houses are good, and each has a well-stocked garden of fruits and vegetables. The European troops usually remain three years at each station, which permits them to make themselves comfortable. Abundance of game, (including the majestic elephant, the tiger, and some few lions, to the North-west in the desert, down to the diminutive quail,) is within a short distance of Meerut, and this is one reason for the preference most people give it.


A few lions are said to inhabit the little desert westward of the Lonee, and wild hogs are very numerous about Balmer; but few tigers or leopards are ever heard of in Jodhpoor or Jesulmer, and are, I believe, never seen in the junguls of Beekaner. Neelgae and antelopes abound in Sind, and a few deer are to be found to eastward of the Great Desert;
 
What do you think is easier to shoot, something in a desert, where theres no cover or something in a jungle where theres thousands of obstacles? Yet another mentioning of both in the same districts of marwar and sirohi:
 
The lion (Felis leo) has now become extinct in these States, no specimen having been shot in either Marwar or Sirohi for nearly thirty years. In 1872 the Bhil Shikari of Mr. T. W. Miles brought in the skin of a full-grown Asiatic lioness which he had shot on the Anadra side of Mount Abu, and about the same year Colonel Hayland bagged four of the species nearJaswantpura, in Marwar. These were the last lions seen over the Kutch border of Marwar, and the Abu lioness was the last met with in Sirohi territory. They seem to have been more easily shot than tigers, as they returned more boldly to their "kills," thus becoming an easy prey to the Bhil Shikari who sat up for them
 
The tiger (Felis tigris) is still to be found in many parts of Marwar and Sirohi,
 
There are no wild animals peculiar to Rajputana. Lions must have been numerous about a hundred years ago, for Colonel Tod writes that Maharao Raja Bishan Singh of Bundi, who died in 1821, 'had slain upwards of one hundred lions
 
Thus " Murray " gravely slates that Abu is a place where the lion and the tiger may 
still be seen together,
 
Formerly lions were far more plentiful in this part of the country, and used to live more in the open plains. One cavalry officer a good many years ago, told me he had shot eighty lions in this province in three years, using well-trained horses for the purpose, and following them over the open country. His gun was a small bore double-barrel flint one, for he described the horror on rushing to a friend's rescue, who had been seized by the arm by a wounded lioness, of finding that after snapping several times in vain, the gun flint had fallen out and a new one had to be screwed in, when the lioness was killed by a shot fired close into its ear.
 
About a hundred years ago tigers, lions, and other large game were common in Ahmedabad. Tigers (1783) were found in the desolate ground outside2 of the city walls, and in the Dholka subdivision dense forests near the Sabarmati were the resort of lions and tigers. Forbes in his Oriental Memoirs3 has preserved Sir Charles Malet's account of a lion hunt in those forests in the year 1780. At Kura, about thirty miles north of Cambay, a place of impenetrable woods, not far from the Sabarmati, the traces of some large animals of the tiger class were found
 
Trivandrum Museum and are replicas of those now exhibited in the Whale Gallery of the British Museum. The other central case contains the largest known specimen of the Dugong (stuffed), from the Gulf of Manaar, with a skeleton, photographs and drawings of the animal....
 
This last exhibit replaces a spectacular group representing a fight between a lion and a tiger, mounted in quasirealistic style with plenty of red-sealingwax blood. Some eighteen years ago this triumph of the taxidermist's art became dilapidated and was removed. But its fame had gone abroad and survived its destruction beyond the confines of India; for when the Dalai Lama visited the Museum in 1910 one of the first things that his attendants asked to be shown was the lion and the tigerfighting, of which they had heard at Lhassa.
 
 Ten species olfelida are found S. of the Himalaya, including the lion, tigerleopard, cheetah, and the true cats (F.catvt).
 
It is believed that lion entered India from Persia about 6000 years ago, and then 
spread in northern India

You know...when three people, a british hunter, a indian ruler and a calvary man had combined killed almost 600 lions...(just three people)...this doesnt really make the asiatic lion sound all that rare. Just three people killed more lions than there is of a 100 years worth of gujarats efforts to restore the gir lions...again, three people, exactly how much can a army of British do in 200+ years worth 10,000...a hundred thousand? How much can countless of centurys crazed prince's, kings, rajputs, mughals, sultans and other rulers of india kill? This knowledge is coming from only a hand full of books, how much library's were in india again, over 40,000? Until people like Valmik thapar and his excotic aliens book actually visited library's and historical sites where lions once ranged, how would they know? 

Ashokas monuments:

[​IMG]

The pillars of Ashoka are a series of columns dispersed throughout the Indian subcontinent, erected or at least inscribed with edicts by the Mauryan king Ashoka during his reign in the 3rd century BC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillars_of_Ashoka

[​IMG]

From the old Indian writings, we are led to believe that the lion, called singh, was formerly spread over the whole of India.
https://books.google.com/books?id=fttAAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA440&dq=lion+tiger+india&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_k7mvmuzJAhVLGR4KHaBvCbU4FBDoAQgmMAI#v=onepage&q=lion tiger india&f=false

Kailasa temple 8th century india
[​IMG]
http://www.messagetoeagle.com/gigan...engineering-marvel-of-indias-master-builders/

Lions=Four Noble Truths

INDIAN FIELD SPORTS. (Extract of a Letter, dated Meerut, June 29, 1822.)

I went expressly for lions, which are found beyond Hamsi, on the borders of the desert. I killed two lions, four lionesses, a tiger and tigress, and a leopard. Such sport, however, is certainly not sufficient to recompence a man for the vile climate he gets into in that part of the country. One of the lionesses had two young ones, which I brought away. They are quite tame, and are now running about my house. I do not think that the lion is so powerful an animal as the tiger, but he fights much better. A tiger will make his attack, and then retire; but a lion never retreats; he fights until he is killed. I believe I have now done with shooting. I can boast what I believe few others can: having shot an elephant dead with a single ball; twice killed tigers, right and left; and once lions right and left. On looking over my game-book, I find that I have killed, since the regiment has been at this station, two elephants, two lions, four lionesses, seventy-two tigers and tigresses, and caught a young elephant, a young lion and lioness, and a young tiger.
https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA330&dq=meerut+india+lion+tiger&id=16ZFAQAAMAAJ#v=onepage&q=meerut india lion tiger&f=false

So looking back at all the locations of the lion, it seems the ashoka pillars weren't just emitted for the ruler ashoka himself, but were land marks of where lions once ranged, as lions would have been more abundant at those times and it matching all the books locations is identical to the regions that were noted on the map. For instance, looking at the ashoka map, at sopara, you can see here that lions and tigers were documented near those areas historically:

WILD 

An account which took place at india in Surat: 
 

The fauna there includes a few tigers: 
https://books.google.com/books?id=635DAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA153&dq=surat+india+tigers&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jFyXVOSwDInUoAS60IGYAw&ved=0CA4Q6AEwBA

Tapi river is the home to the natural habitats of many wild animals including tigers, sloth bear, lions, snakes and many more.
http://www.ecoindia.com/rivers/tapi.html

One of the biggest tigers recorded came from surat: 
https://books.google.com/books?id=I7QrAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA299&dq=surat+india+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xl-XVID_FoKvoQSgkoHABQ&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAzgK 


 

JUNGLES OF INDIA THRILLING SCENE 

Our destination was the province called Guzerat, which is a large peninsula northwest of Bombay. We could have proceeded thither in a short time by sea, but Mr. Barrill took the circuitous land route, in order to see the country. At the end of the first day's journey we en camped at the base of a range of mountains " the height of which I supposed was fifteen hundred feet. These mountains extend entirely through western India. In the vicinity of our encampment, they were steep and stony. On aU sides were forests of bamboo, presenting a straighter and more regular aspet, than any woodland I had ever HINDOO HABITS…. 

At Domus, Mr. Barrill disposed of his tusks to a Parsee merchant, for about one-half the price he could have obtained if he had conveyed them to Surat. But he was glad to ged rid of the burden. Domus -n-as a small town. The inhabitants were courteous enough, but we understood that some of them were strongly suspected of being engaged in piracy. Our servants informed us that the Parsees were very numerous in the country northward, and their enterprise was the chief source of its prosperity. At noon the second day after our arrival at Domus, we came within sight of the celebrated city of Surat. Its towers and pagodas gave it an imposing appearance… but as we approached the walls age and decay were strikingly evident. This city is situated on the Taptee, about tvrenty miles from the point where the mouth, or bay, empties into the gulf of Cambay. It is about six miles in circumference, and shaped like a bow, the cord being the Taptee, having near its centre, a small castle garrisoned by a few sepoys and Europeans. On ofner sides, the town is surrounded by a wall, flanked with semicircular towers. Without the walls we found some good European houses, formerly occupied by the French, but now, the residence of English officers; but the houses within the town were very inferior, consisting only of timber frames filled up with bricks, their upper stories projecting over each other. The streets were narrow and irregular. Only small boats, called ketches, can ascend the river to Surat " yet the city once had a very extensive* commerce. 

We remained three days in Surat. During this period, Mr. Barrill made some valuable acquaintance among the English, and purchased some small articles which he deemed necessary for our comfort. We found that nearly all the business of the city was carried on by the Parsees " the Hindoos being generally as indolent as they were superstitious… 

The jungle was beautiful and luxuriant " the dark green foliage of the bamboo contrasting finely with the lighter verdure of the palm and the blossoms of numerous other trees for which I had no name. The encounter of the day before had left an impression not easily effaced, and we took care to avoid, as far as we could, consistently with our designs upon the game, the thickest jungle, where it was difficult to see beyond a few yards on each side. The Hindoos were all eye as they marched, and I thought, that each moment, one of them shuddered as if he expected the terrible tiger to spring from the bushes and dash him to the ground. We had proceeded about six or seven niiles, without meeting with any animals, deemed worthy of our rifles, and were growing more confident in our march. ^Lr. Barrill and I had fallen into conversation about the contrast between the forests of India and South Africa, when a tremendous roar, and the shrieks of the Hindoos, rang fearfully in our ears, and brought our shuddering horses to a halt. The case flashed on our eyes we turned. The Parsees stood as if paralyzed " the Hindoos shrieked and danced, and seemed senseless with fright. Hurrying away through the jungle we could occasionally catch a glimpse of the striped hack of a tiger ' and a faint shriek told us what he had dared to seize foi his meal. Humanity and our own burning thirst for distinction in this region, new to us, banished all feelings uf dread, and we started away, with ready rifles in pursuit, the rest of the party following, not knowing what else to do for safety. The tiger had disappeared beneath the thick foliage of the bushes, and the cessation of the victim's shrieks left us no clue to the ferocious animal's whereabouts. 


When suddenly, within about fifty yards, sounded the tremendous voice of a lion " a sound we could never forget; and a succession of awful growls, snaps, and loud rustics among the bushes, led us to believe that the two tyrants of the forests were contending for the mastery. Anxious to gain a view of such a fearful struggle, we pressed forward^ till emerging from a clump of bushes, we beheld almost at our horse's feet, the lion and tiger rolling over and over, in a conflict which only death could interrupt. The mangled Hindoo was lying senseless upon his face, within a few yards of the ferocious combatants. We did not fire, but reserved our bullets till the conflict should destroy one of the beasts. 

It was a horrible struggle. The tiger was quite as large as the lion, and much quicker in his movements. But the lion showed a decided superiority of strength, and his great mane effectually covered his head. Still his hack and sides were torn hy the tiger's claws, and for some minutes the contest was doubtful. Both possessed equal courage and determination, and no disposition was evinced to have a drawn battle. It was one of the compensations of nature. The tyrants of the woods, who had so long preyed upon the weaker animals, were now paying each other in due form. Draw near, ye ghosts of mangled cattle, stags and lesser beasts, to gloat over your revenge! Our prescence seemed a matter of indifference to the combatants, so intent were they in that struggle of strength and activity. But the endurance of the lion prevailed " seizing the tiger by the throat, he turned it on its back, and with his strong claws tore open its belly, and, thus put an end to its ferocious life. Hail, king of beasts, for so thou art I This had scarcely been achieved when simultaneotis balls from our rifles, stretched the lion beside the foe whom he had vanquished, and their blood mingled among the grass…. 

We immediately dismounted, hastened to the wounded Hindoo, while his companions busied themselves in striking their spears into the helpless tiger " and patting the head of the lion. Raising the poor fellow, we found that he was so dreadfully bitten and torn about the throat and breast, that his chance of living was but small. He could not speak. After a short time spent in reeking their cowardly vengeance on the tiger, his Hindoo companions said that they had quite enough of hunting tigers on foot, and that they would take the wounded man back to Elaw as quickly as possible. Mr. Barrill agreed with them that it was the best course they could pursue, and gave them the skin of the tiger to take with them as a kind compensation for their fright. They constructed a rude litter of branches, on which they laid their wounded companion " then skinned the tigers-cutting ofi" his head " while our Parsees were skinning the lion, and then bade us adieu. The lion was not as large as those we had killed in Africa " His skin was of a yellowish hue, the mane being some shades deeper. In other respects, there seemed to be no difference between the lions of Asia and Africa. 

The tiger was a beautiful animal, the skin being striped as splendidly as that of the African zebra. The form resembled that of the common cat. The eyes were of a greenish grey color, having a ferocious glare " and the appearance of the teeth and claws was enough to send a thrill of terror through a person of timid nerves. The roar of this monster, which was the first intelligence of his presence we had received, resembled that of the lion, but was not so deep and grand. When enraged as it was during the conflict with the lion, it makes a shrill cry which pierces the ear in a most disagreeable way. 


http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Perils_and_Pleasures_of_a_Hunters_Life_1000110811/209 

http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Perils_and_Pleasures_of_a_Hunters_Life_1000110811/211 

It states non-fiction: 
http://www.readanybook.com/author/peregrine-herne-10860 

It states it’s a autobiography: 
http://www.gregorrarebooks.com/cgi-bin/gregor/19933.html?id=DHdpg6en 

Here is Herne being noted as one of the first hunters of his era: 
http://www.shakariconnection.com/early-african-hunter-books.html 


In 1832 one was killed at Baroda, while further north it was comparatively 
common round Ahmedabad in 1836. ... Lt. Dodd mentions that Burns about 1830 
wrote that lions as well as tigers, bears and wolves were found north of Bhooj, but 
that none except the last named were now found, though a ... the Deputy 
Commissioner, saw and killed no less than eight lions at Patulghar, 70 miles 
north-west of Goona while in 1864
 Mr. Arratoon of the police
 
Ganga well lion
Gangaikonda Cholapuram Temple Lion Water well

The ganges yamuna

It is known from historical evidence that the 16th and 17th centuries, Ganga-Yamuna region was covered with dense forests. These forests wild elephant , buffalo , rhino, lion, tiger and bison was the victim of


31’st of March, 1851, In the “Landshuter Zeitung” (“Landshut Newspaper”) 

A drama at the Ganges. 

I’ll tell of one of these terrible fights, one you wouldn’t see again in a hundred years, a scene of blood and death that forever will haunt my mind. […] The lion and his rival, the tiger, need air and space in great quantity. Here, and only here, are they really able to live and to rule. […] (A long description of lions and tigers and how fierce both of them are, the actual event follows now) A Malayan slave ran towards us and shouted: “Lion! Lion! Down there, at the river! It’s a big, fierce lion!” 

“One more reason to take shelter in the house,” continued the colonel. “Come, my friends, take the weapons! The lion is a troublesome guest.” 

We closed the house’s doors; the slaves got weapons and guarded the basement. We, to welcome this guest admirably, climbed up to the gallery from which we could overlook the Ganges. An unusually big lion walked haughtily down there, not looking around as he does when he has to fight an opponent, but instead ambling slowly and thoughtfully like a philosopher, he walked there. He stopped from time to time to rest a minute, and then continued majestically his way. Under a magnificent palm, he stopped, turned around two times, and finally lay down in the shadow. This was the rest of a magnificent ruler that had nothing to fear from any adversary. He rested easily, as do those who have made no enemies. 

Scarcely ten minutes had the lion lain there, when suddenly, he jumped up as though struck by lightning, roaring very deeply and scratching the ground with both hind legs, as though challenging an adversary. He lowered his head and, in a single bound, jumped at the palm’s stem to look about, to the right and left. Then he jumped down to ground to wait again, and his gaze lingered at one particular spot on the horizon. 

“An enemy seems to approach,” the colonel said, “a terrible enemy, if we look at the lion’s reaction. I predict that it will be a fierce fight, and many rich people would pay a great sum to see it if they were here right now.” 

“And why,” I asked, “don’t they stage some fights from time to time, if they would pay so much?” 

“Because what we have here is very rare. The lion won’t fight against a human but against a fierce animal, one as strong as he himself, such as a rhinoceros, an elephant, or a tiger.” 

“A tiger! It’s really a tiger!” one of us shouted pointing a finger at the dangerous beast which jumped in huge leaps towards the lion. It was breathtaking, our eyes wandered from the lion to the tiger and from the tiger to the lion. The lion still was lurking. It was a terrible spectacle and we wagered who will win. Now they stood eyeball to eyeball with each other. They’d seen each other and wouldn’t leave unless one of them was lying dead at the ground. The tiger was unbelievably huge and beautiful with his long black stripes distributed all over his yellowish body. His fearful eyes seemed to burn, his head was lowered. We stood, at the most, 200 feet away. The sun shone brightly, so we could see their every move. I don’t think I have to mention that our hearts were in our mouths. The tiger closed in on the lion, but the lion remained calm. In the latter, we could see the force of the calmness in his powerful position; in the tiger, one could believe to see the violent tension of someone who has the impudence to disrespect a close danger, one who had the will to assault it. We could see a certain twitch in his legs, but he wasn’t about to flee. Did the crouching tiger want to kill the lion? I believe it did, and I admire the royal tiger’s courage, he would rather lie down in a burning furnace than be accused of cowardice! 

The lion had not moved at all, but we could see what was happening inside him by looking at his erected mane. From time to time, his countenance suggested a submissive gesture. But he, the king of animals, didn’t want to show any fear, but rather boldness, to his opponent. A duel was now inevitable. For the tiger it may be a glorious day, but for the lion it was certainly a festive day. 

With one leap, they could grab, bite, tear each other; with one leap they’d jump over the space of 20 feet that separated them from each other. Then, they leaped! The crash equaled the crash of two ships in a tempest! We could hear the bones breaking under the weight of their terrible paws, we could see chunks of flesh falling to the ground. They made no sound, but their gruff moaning indicated their rage and pain. Neither showed superiority and we wondered who would win. If the lion were to think that he had overpowered the tiger, the latter could earn the victory with a single move, shattering the surprised lion. 

The fight now lasted 10 minutes, and suddenly, as if they came to an agreement, both loosened their grip to gain their breath again. It was the motionlessness of the rage, but it was the calmness of the king. A few moments later, an unexpected incident which resurrected the fight took place: The tiger, which saw not only his defeat but also his death, used the moment. While his opponent was licking his wounded hind leg, he leaped 10 feet up the palm’s stem and stayed there. The lion looked around and couldn’t see his foe anymore; he roared, looked upwards, and he jumped at the tiger. But in this position it was impossible to continue the fight. They knew that only one of them would survive. The tiger jumped down and the lion followed him, but his leg caused him to shiver. A long fight wasn’t possible any more. Their claws were blunted, their jaws were tired, and they had lost much blood. 

The fighters’ jaws were wedged in each other as they bit at each others’ heads; we could feel the bones crushing. Suddenly the tiger retreated, wavered and fell down. The lion seized him with his terrible paws and it seemed like he wanted to punish the defeated opponent for his resistance. 

He didn’t loosen his grip, the merciless king of the forest, the feared lord of the wilderness; he tore the tiger apart, he crushed its skull. Suddenly a crocodile appeared out of the river. It seized the lion at his injured hind leg and dragged him into the water. The only remains of this fight were the dead tiger under the palm and some read streams of blood on the water surface. 
http://books.google.de/books?id=ghtEAAAAcAAJ&pg=RA1-PA50&dq=l%C3%B6we+tiger+kampf&hl=de&ei=aSZETeLmFYTAswbU6IHVDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=l%C3%B6we%20tiger%20kampf&f=false

A tiger and lion fight near bangalore, the tiger is bitten terribly in
the throat before both injured go seperate ways:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1302&dat=18891221&id=8pJRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=VJMDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7172,7165143&hl=en

Lion kills tiger saving hunter in india:


These records  of lion and tiger wild conflicts in the past of the 19th century and before, would be next to impossible to gather a wide range of records, since: 


1.) Actually finding them would be ridiculously hard, since one would have to check the fauna history books in the 17-18th century, the hunting records, natural history, and other archaeological history books as well via manually reading random books and english ones are very limited.

2.) And finally leads, leads are the best things into finding more accounts, there would be little leads to be given per location via maps, search engines and archives and india being so big where d you start?

All this is easily no problem and can be done in mere minutes now with internet technology. We can already go off the lead that both encounters the other in surat, tapi river...sooo..by just typeing that in the google maps:


We can see that there are university's and librarys right next to the very river a 150 years ago the lion killed the tiger, most likely these places will have natural history books with even more information, a english hunter in one isolated year of an entire centurycoming across them is beyond miraculous, but the people of india have been there for thousands of years, no dought those librarys would hold far more records than isolated cases by chance, we just have to see if any historical records of india in those specific places can be translated to english, no dought this goes the same for all co-existing places. So I would suggest these are the best methods in finding more accounts in the wild where the two co-existed. 

Hey, just a couple of years ago, no one had any data of lions conflicts with tigers (a question which has been asked for 2,000 years in all cultures who know both), now there seems to be nearly a 100 recorded cases both in captivity and in the wild: 

I think there are thousands  yet to be re-discovered, just have to look with the right methods, and in the right places.




Edited by Prime - 04-Jan-2016 at 23:00
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Now the rest of asias lions:

Japan

Lion
Spectacle hut from the Edo period is going to remain as one of the also of the are but animals of spectacle will change the appearance as Circus Circus from around about the Meiji repertoire. 
 It was examined for first that began as a circus. According to that was examined by the Internet Circus, to Japan for the first time American Risley Circus is in Yokohama to Motoharu of the spectacle of Westerners have been to Japan to Japan first year (1864), the second time to Japan France Soulier feat of horsemanship delegation in 1871 (1871), the third time is 1886 came from Italy (1886) Charine circus troupe (6) visited Japan is, it is are you circus box office, including the beasts.

According to the Akune Iwao (1988), in order to full-scale Yano Zoo, Yano IwaFutoshi is, but go to Kobe is decided to Germany to go in order to buy in the Lion, introduction of animal quotient of peace Nakata in, through the Bergman firm, even without travel negotiation of Lion purchased unity from Hagenbeck Zoo, and will be able to import, by this lion, Yano visited the zoo says the is to hit the jackpot. It is a story of 1907 (1907), it to Yano visited Zoo, to buy, such as leopard and tigers, it has been to a full-fledged zoo, nationwide by the lion came from Germany in out popular, at that time people even less people who viewed Lion until now, nobody doubt people are had not

Yano visited the zoo by the popularity of this lion is the second of the zoo organized, is of the Japanese archipelago continue to patrol divided into two hands. Those who second zoo, Yano Shotaro nephew of IwaFutoshi Yano is left as Kanshu, in the name of animal museum in order to distinguish it from the zoo of the headquarters, was than the beasts of the signboard Kilimanjaro production of Lion had It was Although the there were these two cyclic Zoo, from the beginning in 1909, it was like until around forty-five years. This, Meiji forty-two people of Zoo headquarters between forty five years from the year is to have the box office over to Korea.

This highly backs now the artifacts of the 18th-19th century sculptures of bronze and ivory, the japanese in those eras had real live lions and tigers traded by numerous circuses such as hagenbeck, who hagenbeck is has probably lost (on accidental occaisons) more animals like bears and tigers killed by lions than any organized circus/menagerie...so the artifacts are probably an extension of the japanese recording what they saw their own purchased and traded lions had done to their bears and tigers...when hagenbeck lost animals, it was reported in the news because most the staff was english-americans, when the japanese lost their animals in accidental fights, most probably were japanese-language only trainers and forth, so instead of news archives like bostock, hagenbeck and beatty, (who  just those three combined lost nearly a hundred bears and tigers killed by lions) the japanese had their recordings in antiques such as okimonos:






China:

Japanese

(Indonisan) 
Lion with throat grab on tiger: 

China:

A lion slaps on the face of a tiger as they fight for the control of a pool at a zoo in Nanjing, east China's Jiangsu province July 18, 2004. The lion finally occupied the cool water of the pool in the summer heat wave after it defeated its challenger in two minutes. 
http://english.people.com.cn/200407/20/eng20040720_150169.html 





Its common in china to say the lion defeats the tiger: 
http://books.google.com/books?id=_alFAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA39&dq=After+a+soul-stirring+contest,+the+lion+eventually+defeated+the+tiger 

My mother taught me the elephant will defeat the lion, the lion defeat the tiger . . . the cat defeat the mouse, the rat. 
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=AT&p_theme=at&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EADA32AE924DB1B&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM 

(China) 
Guo Pu or Kwoh P'oh 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guo_Pu 

Also, in the Western Jin, the annotation by Guo Pu to Erya indicates that "suanni" is actually another word for a lion that made its way into China from western regions. 

http://theme.npm.edu.tw/exh102/oversized10201/en/ch01.html 


Lion and prostrate Tiger 
 

A lion to be presented by the barbarian King of Po-ssu was captured and retained by the rebel Mo-ch’I Ch’ou-nu while on its way to the capital. Toward the end of Yung-an (A.D 530), with the downfall of [Mo-ch’I] Ch’oi-nu,, [the lion] finally reached the capital. Emperor chuang said to Li Yu, the Chief Palace attendent, We have heard that when a tiger sees a lion, it will always lay prostrate. Lets get a tiger and try to find out wheather this is true. 
http://books.google.com/books?id=lOj_AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA152&dq=prostrate+tiger+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uohxVPKbCJSyoQTwt4LwBg&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAw


Lets see what the synonyms of Prostrate are: 
http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/prostrate 

So: 

-Beaten 
-Paralayzed 
-Defensless 
-Weak 
-Overwhelmed 
-Over Powered 
-Exhausted 
-Immobilized 
-Knocked over 

Tibet: 
 
http://www.tibetarchaeology.com/march-2011/ 


A young lion comes from tibet and it is said to eat tigers 
http://books.google.com/books?id=f6VBAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA244&dq=shi+lion+tiger+china+thunder&hl=en&sa=X&ei=vhlHVKeMFtCyyASnnoDwAw&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAg


(Suanni) Lion On the ancient Chinese dictionary, Erhya (é¢âÎ ûr y®£), there is an ancient and probably indigenous Chinese term for the lion. This term is Suanni (“©‡« suÇn ní), described as a light-colored tiger (or feline) which eats other tigers and leopards and identified by the earliest commentators with the Han lion, Shizi. It 
http://www.cozychinese.com/lion-shi/ 



It shows that during the fighting between a lion and a tiger, the tiger is killed and eaten by the lion. 
http://maskdance.com/japanese/sub3/sub1.asp?bseq=7&cat=-1&sk=&sv=&page=1&mode=view&aseq=7 



The lion dance depicts a lion winning a fight with a tiger and eventually eating it. 
http://www.google.com/search?q=The+lion+dance+depicts+a+lion+winning+a+fight+with+a+tiger+and+eventually+eating+it.&lr=&cr=countryKR&hl=en&as_qdr=all&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ctr%3AcountryKR&prmd=ivns&ei=x4xZVMeZJ-n1igLSpIDoCA&sa=N&btnG=Search 


(Indonisian) 

Lioness subduing a tiger: 
 

(China) 
Monk Huilin said: "Suan Ni is the Lion, the Western 
Regions." 
 

2. The sixth is the Suan Ni, is a beast can be eating tigers and leopards. 
http://danci.911cha.com/%E7%8B%BB%E7%8C%8A.html 


 

Lion is as said the king of all animals and so it is laid at the first place. There was no lion but tiger in China. But when the lion was introduced into China it was ranked at the first place. During the Southern Dynasties... 
http://books.google.com/books?id=...IigLP34DwBA&ved=0CA4Q6AEwBDgK 

(15th century Puntsaou) 
 
The Lion, designated by a character which implies, that it is the chief among carnivorous animals... 
It preys upon the tiger, the leopard, and the yu, another species of the feline race...naturalists, quoted in the Punt-saou, assert, he is the prince, that is, second to the king among the beasts of the field. 
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA453&dq=china+the+tiger+is+afraid+of+the+lion&ei=RtxzVNaGL8WxogSWx4DIBw&id=KrwRAAAAYAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html 


Indidegous to the Asian tiger, Afghanistan sent lions to Chinese emperors as gifts in order to get the right to trade with Silk Road merchants. *(205 B.C. to 220 A.D in China) and during the Tang Dynasty (716-907 A.D.) 
http://arts.cultural-china.com/en/9Arts10159.html 


A Lion fighting a Nian who the Tiger couldent. 
http://www.sevenstarmantis.co.uk/7.html 

The lion is known as the king of animals. The first lion was presented to China during the EasternHan Dynasty... 
http://www1.chinaculture.org/library/2008-01/22/content_77553.htm 

The lion stone animal was then popularly used even to put in front of imperial tombs. The second animal is Xiezhi, which is as said very clever and able to tell the good from the bad. And so the lion and Xiezhi are used to watch over the tomb. Those placed at the 3rd and the 4th are the camel and elephant. They are all very large animals of amiable temperament. 
http://www.tourbamboo.com/nanjing/ming-xiaoling-tomb.html 


 
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://shizhu2009.blog.163.com/blog/static/1166077120078794553480&prev=search 

 
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://www.gudianxue.org/index.php%3Ftitle%3D%25E7%258B%25BB&prev=search 


the lion is held higher then the tiger 
http://www.epochtimes.com/b5/9/9/6/dailypost.htm 




An eunuch possesed a black donkey which he presented to the Emperor ; it was able to travel three hundred and more miles a day, and to fight tigers. His Majesty ordered its courage and strength to be tested. A single kick killed the tiger that was set against him; and by three kicks he killed another, when a lion was mercilessly at once pitted against the brave conqueror, whose spine was broken by the lion. 
http://books.google.com/books?id=7TwDAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA131&dq=china+black+donkey+kick+tiger+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_FJCVNDQPKL1iQKZoIHwBA&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA


(A lion standing over a prostrated tiger) 
 

~Dou shou qi Jungle traditional chinese animal fighting game 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungle_(board_game) 

And the cover of the stradigie board game it has the lion as the King: 

 

The Ranking of the Traditional Chinese game: 

8     Elephant      
7     Lion      
6     Tiger       
5     Leopard      
4     Wolf       
3     Dog 
2     Cat    
1     Rat 

The lion is held higher then the tiger in chinese culture: 
http://iccf9.global.tsinghua.edu.cn/iccf9/tour/travel/Beijing.html 


The Forbidden City is divided into an outer and an inner court. We are now standing on the southernmost part of the outer court. In front of us lies the Gate of Supreme Harmony. The gate is guarded by a pair of bronze lions, symbolizing imperial power and dignity. The lions were the most exquisite and the biggest of its kind.… 

According to the ancient record the lion was also called Suanni. The historical books Hou Han Shu (History of the Late Han Dynasty) and Dong Guan Han Ji have it that by the reign of emperors Zhang and Shun of the Eastern Han Dynasty (25 - 220 A.D.) lions were brought in by envoys from the States of Anxi and Shule. Yu Shinan, a famous calligrapher of the Tang Dynasty described the animal in his Ode to the Lions:"Its eyesight is like a shaft of lightning and its roaring, a peal of thunder." And in this way the nimble but ferocious beast was vividly brought forth in his writing. In ancient China, lions were used to guard tombs, carved in grottoes and made onto articles for daily use. For example, you can find stone lions of the Han and Tang dynasties, the pieces of brocade with lion patterns discovered on the Silk Road, the lion as a ride for Bodhisattva Manjusri in the Stone Cave Temple, the bronze mirror with lion patterns of the Tang Dynasty, seal with a lion - shaped knob of the Northern and Southern dynasties as well as porcelain pillows and toys... 

The lion, an animal from an exotic land, was the king of all beasts, able to safe-guard hills and mountains. Suanni, a legendary and ferocious beast, able to devour tigers and leopards, signified that all mountains around were under unified governance and all beasts at his command. 
http://www.conference.ac.cn/BeijingGuide/ForbiddenCity.htm 

Some porcelien antiques similar to those events: 

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ-_WXU2RrzRKfjbJ56cLKw8R5emK0P9Y7OQQsWiyz1sXgIIkb0PhviS9A 

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTo2BifCe0y_kguvJNUSHIDstOTlfrcTqBq8Z3nBvNwy4h4HlzRMaDEde4

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQZWWOjdjRmib06kg_rFhwQNQOneU6Pwq1R4xoao2IDD8eI8zSaNH5QXoo 

Emperor wu started breeding lions 
http://english.cri.cn/7146/2014/08/22/2921s841409_2.htm 

Terrace and stone sculptures at Songling, tombs of the Song Dynasty in Gongyi City, Henan 
 
Surrounding the tomb terrace were four walls; inside the wall corners were four watchtowers... were pairs of stone lions. 
http://www.china.org.cn/features/atam/2005-01/07/content_1115232.htm 

 
Almost every country uses certain animals to symbolize one thing or another. Americans, for instance, use the eagle to symbolize freedom and strength.In China, several animals have been given symbolic meaning. The mythical dragon was used by emperors to represent their supreme authouity, the crane stands for longevity, mandarin ducks for love and loyalty, and the crow for bad luck. What does the lionstand for, though? 

In China, the lion is regarded as the king of the forests and of the other animals. It has thus long been used as a symbol of power and grandeur. It is even believed to offer protection from evil spinits. That’s why imposing statues of lions were placed at the gates of imperial palaces, official residences, temples and tombs. In cense burners and imperial seals were also often decorated with carved lions. 

Indeed, like images of the dragon, carved lions can be seen almost everywhere in China. 


 

awesome beast was held — with its glaring eyes and thunderous voice, its power sufficient to drag away a tiger, 
http://www.google.com/search?q=lion+awesome+beast+was+held+%97+with+its+glaring+eyes+and+thunder-+Deta+ous+voice%2C+its+power+sufficient+to+drag+away+a+tiger%2C+&tbm=bks&tbo=1 


 
Suan Ni: it is a beast that can eat tigers and leopards. 
http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/327300011.html 

 
The lion known as suan ni, sometimes as suan fawn ate tigers and leopards 
http://en.b2b168.com/s168-25600204.html         

Historian colemen
E C Bridgman China.jpg

"The lion, King of beast, occurs in africa, the middle east and north west india. As the power of the han dynasty (206 B.C -220 A.D) extended far into the west, lions began to reach the emperors palace as tribute. When people confined them with tigers and leopards, they were astonished to discover that here was a creature which could subdue the most feared of chinas wild animals, that ferocious maneater, the tiger." 
http://www.taiwan-panorama.com/en/show_issue.php?id=199888708122E.TXT&table=2&h1=Art%20and%20Culture&h2=Museums 

Chinese historians would assert, as tribute. In Kanghe's dictionary, a work is quoted which says, that in reign of Shun te, of the Han dynasty, in A. i>. 126, Solik a prince of the west presented a Tibetan yak and a lion to the emperor; the latter was of a uniform yellow, and had a tuft on the tail. Marco Polo says, that, during the festival of the White Feast, a lion was conducted into the presence of his majesty, "so tame, that it is taught to lay itself down at his feet." Du Halde also mentions that a lion was among the gifts presented to Hungwoo, the founder of the Ming dynasty; and after his reign, in 1421, shah Rokh's embassadors carried with them another, which was presented to Yunglo; and again, about the year 1466, two were sent to Heentsung by the king of Samarcand. 

~The Chinese Repository By Elijah Coleman Bridgman, Samuel Wells Williams 

(Hongwu Emperor of Ming dynasty) 

 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ming_Dynasty 


In Ming times, the lion was for the first rank and second rank officers, but after 1662 the First Rank had this changed to a Qilin. A leopard indicated third rank; tiger for fourth rank; bear for fifth rank; young tiger 

http://books.google.com/books?id=w1PsYGwQdesC&pg=PA65&dq=lion+ranks+first+tiger+imperial&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5WqlUo-OOcX8oATolYJ4&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAg 

Tocharians 

 

The Tocharians sent lions to Tang' on three occaisons once in the seventh and twice in the eigth century; the embassy of 719 is especially interesting in that two lions were presented by a Tocharian magnifico on behalf of rome. 

(Tai'Zong/Tai'sung) 

 

It glares its eyes---and lighting flashes, 
It vents its voice---and thunder echoes, 

It drags away the tiger. 
Swallows down the bear, 
Splits the rhinocerous, 
Cleaves the elephant, 

It crushes the mighty guar between gums and palate 
It bends the boa snake between finger and palm 

“A glourious event in the past” 

 
(Sheeps do not have claws) 

The lion was even more savage then the tiger.
 

~~The Golden Peaches of Samarkand: A Study of T‘ang ExoticsUniversity of California Press, 1963 
http://books.google.com/books?id=9Z7cZ77SqEQC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA84&dq=ainceint+lions+the+most+powerful+animal&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html 


Korea:

(Korea) 
(Zoo keeper at everland zoo Jeong sangjo) 
 
Everland throne was occupied by the male lion over 10 years 

Yongin Everland Zoo know what it is, who fights and lions and tigers. The grow it as a lion and a tiger. 

Once the average weight, but the lion is slightly ahead of the level, is not a decisive factor in the game. The male lion is 200kg, females 140kg, a male tiger 180kg, larger than the tiger with a female lion 130kg. Is squirming around Cedar Lake. Lion boasts a stable posture to balance the total weight placed on both front foot and back foot. While the tiger is the weight mainly because your body can soon be put on the back foot rotation jeompeuryeok is excellent. There is also a slight difference between primary weapon. If the lion is massive paws straight from the stable posture primary weapon, the tiger is swift and quick jab Tapping value. Teeth attack a decisive role when the fight is similar to both. Digging deep into the flesh with sharp fangs are costs to 3ÜB length. film Showdown of the lion and tiger tuck. See example their fighting skills and habits from jeongsangjo keepers watched their fight 24 years from Everland Zoo. 


Åü Law 1 = lion does not fight alone 

"The lion and tiger fights and wins almost lion because lions always carry around a bunch built to fight alone while the Tigers' six days in the afternoon. 

SEQ ID No. 1 zoo lion throne 'identity' is, he attacked the tiger sequence No. 2 'horong' with a female lion 'Kiara'. Rather than a one-sided fight was devastated. Tigers 'horong' This one was a lion was two. Tiger takes a defensive posture, but in vain posture lowers the bunch. Came to hit the 'id' front, 'horong' kicked the exposed flank between the forefoot to prevent this in the 'Kiara'. 'Horong' could be relevant to the ingenuity pincer of a lion. Lions are social communities that live with several generations from 1 year to 5 years of age in the wild is a strong animal. Siberian tiger solitude to live away from the hole with a large area of India to Bengal only inherently different. 20 day average of the lion, the tiger is 13 degree radiation are fighting this one goes on the lion and the tiger attack at least two groups. Especially sharp fielding lion attacked the tiger roar, this cry is a signal to attract the lion's surroundings. While the tiger is not absolute intervention Sinners deserve another tiger. 

Åü Law 2 = horny female lion makes a fight "fight between a lion and a tiger 

However, the female lion have deliberately crossed the border and would provoke a tiger. On May 27 the estrous female lion 'Rose' is moved to the tiger lazily walking area between the male lions nap. 'Rose' is 'id', 'Leo', 'travel', 'Annika' and looked at the male tiger sequence No. 2 'horong' chunky face the front of the foot touches tuk. 'Horong' cause this moment chwihaja corresponding body posture 'id' is Denis ran towards them 'horong' horong 'hit is less recoil. Day 'Rose' was a brave choice 'ID'. 

Åü Law 3 = good at guerrilla warfare Tigers 

"Tiger can not win a fight a lion moving in groups in front. The tiger commando attack falls and the lion is lurking quietly " 'Aurora' and hit 'Juno' is aghast within flee, 'horong' drove the attack to 'hake' lion 'Leo' is 2 and SEQ ID No. 1 to 10 days tiger 'segang' twice suffered a surprise attack. . Always 'Leo' is like the willow branches to lay down to rest on a slanted hill, tiger 'segang' attacked suddenly 'Leo' is hiding behind the willows. 'Leo' does not help that another lion exists yeoseo like 'bullying' in the lion bunch tablet keepers "If fighting a lion and a tiger is equivalent to cruelty to animals," he said. "Take a small breeder that patrol car and horse fights The rigon, "he said. 
http://news.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2008/06/29/2008062900832.html 

On the Rwn korean news report, Jeong jangjo stated: 

 
"If the lion attacks accumulate valiant tiger's even prepared to retreat " 

Everland korea: Scene 

1. Lioness dominates two white tigers 
2. Male lion dominated two tigers 
3. 10 tigers relseased, biggest male trys to pick on lioness only to get slapped around 
4. Lioness tells male what happened, male lion goes and dominated 3 tigers 
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzY3MzAzMjEy.html 

More on everland: 

5 lions mauling a tiger 
 

Tigers are afraid of male lions at everland 
 

And are often injured in fights with lions even 1 on 1 
 

Tigers are dominated around the clock at everland even at feeding time 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjjHffy-Nds 




Yiyongpil zookeeper watched a power struggle since the opening of the safari內is "Meanwhile, the frequent change of government, but after the April 2000" POSCO "are accounted for supremacy Safari內has become relatively calm," he said. He explained the reason for this is that POSCO is currently recognized as a champion integration."" POSCO "Ahi is also fighting tooth for now.However, given the snacks look more hierarchies that it is easy to see how if caught.If there are spun the jeep safari內to give the chicken as a snack for the animals at this time, "POSCO" throw this in the "hosik" POSCO stands approaching its halfway point only."Hosik" Ido course a situation that looks interested deombiji not dare to eat. 

~ korean news-monthly.chosun.com

bigcats.jpg

4 names for everland 2010

and according to the koreans, the lion is faster than the tiger:
149384 2


(Vietnam) 
Lioness trys to eat tiger, is saved by male lion: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWQx1k_jzR8


More oreintal artifacts:




Edited by Prime - 04-Jan-2016 at 17:56
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Edited by Prime - 21-Dec-2015 at 18:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2015 at 21:15
Ohhh, whats going on here, are the mods taking action?


Edit:

I think it is...as the previous post are erased.



Edited by Prime - 25-Dec-2015 at 01:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2016 at 17:26


Screenshot (57)


The cast of lion vs tiger animal face off:

Frank mendel:

[​IMG]

Scott H woodward


"There were other stuff that they did not show," said Woodward. "It was inappropriate though, it was some old footage where they threw a tiger and a lion into a pit. The lion was more dominant while the tiger just gave up. None of the cats were interested in finishing the other off."

In addition to Mendel and Woodward, the UB team developing the Vertebrate Analyzer includes Kevin Chugh, Ph.D., NYSCEDII research associate for visualization; Kevin Hulme, Ph.D., NYSCEDII's research associate for engineering design; Venkat Krovi, Ph.D., assistant professor of mechanical and aerospace engineering; David R. Pendergast, Ph.D., professor of physiology and biophysics, and Abani Patra, Ph.D., associate professor of mechanical and aerospace engineering.
http://www.ubspectrum.com/article/2...e-to-analyzing-a-catfight-of-epic-proportions

photo


[​IMG]
Out of 200 or so tigers, 190 kg is the average:
[​IMG]




However, the tigers in the Sundarbans weigh just 76.7 kg, nearly half of the weight of other wild Bengal tigers, which average at 138.2 kg. This is also less than the average weight of tigers from any of the other 8 sub-species, making the Sundarbans tigers probably the smallest in the world

Occurrence of fossil lion and spotted hyena from. Pleistocene deposits of SusuniaBankura District, West Bengal.




So if you look back at the ashoka map edicts monument placements, you can see that almost all the accounts that showed lions and tigers co-existing are marked on the ashoka map, for instance, the surat account had a lion kill a tiger near the tapti river, there is an edict in that same region of sopara marked on the map, deesa had both lion and tiger in the same jungles of gujarat,  girnar is maped with ashoka edicts,  bangalore showed a lion fighting a tiger account and there are more conjoined rivers there than most and look how much eddicts are there...bankura west bengal has lion bones, and ashoka eddicts are mapped there as well. The most sightings are near the ganges river on historical books as showed, and look at the map, there are edicts there too...So these ashoka monuments of four lions probably werent just to idealize the man ashoka, but they were land marks of acknowledging where the indian lion once lived, and more so these monuments have one thing in common, they are all near large bodys of rivers...

So the theory of lions and tigers would due good to avoid each other because of preferred habitats is taken out of the equation, we dont have to look for places their habitats overlapped of dense jungle vs open grass lands to find lions and tigers in conflicts, they both would need one thing on a day to day or week to week basis, water to drink, and it just so happens all these places on the ashoka maps are near major fresh water rivers of india...so most likely colleges and university of fauna near all these edicts would turn up to have history books and records of lions and tigers co-existing. The records show that lions ranged not just in gujarat, rajasthan, MP, uttar predesh ect, but most likely what the true meaning of the ashoka monuments of 4 lions facing all directions is, that lions once ruled in all the 4 corners of india.

Lions in gujarat had risen from 20 or so to 500 now in just 1 century. The ancient writings in india state lions were there before even humans so that means they would flourish without man made hunting scenes , if there were a pride in every single state of india where there is enough mega fauna to survive on which they did have guar, buffalo, rhino and elephant suitable for a large pride, lions would follow them...in other words what can stop a entire pride of lions from trans-versing the continent in the natural world? Only one thing...man. more so the lion disappearance all at once in the 17th-18th century most notedly because of the british war, where every man from both nations would have been armed with rifles, and if 3 men could kill 600, than an army within 200 years could have killed thousands by the year. Again, lions live in the open and to every 1 or pair of tigers, lions would be in prides of 30+ and much more noiser, so they were much more easier targeted by hunters, poachers, the british army, and the rajas, rajputs and sultans who hunted them for sport. Much as the records noted...tigers started gaining ground rapidly only after the lion was gone. The ashoka monuments are a testament of the lions presence in india...if you saw both the two of them in the same area and one dominated over the other even in just minor disputes:






Who do you think they would have built monuments for prasing their identity...the loser or the winner? Hence they would build monuments of the animal that ruled undisputed. The bottom line is, because the strength in unity and their prides, lions would hold the rights to all terrains they venture to, no single predator could compete with lions... not just dry areas like gujarat, desserts of rajasthans, forest of Mp, and jungles of the ganga yamuna...but as far as bengals swamps, much like how the african lions ruled in the thickest amount of swampy areas in africas okavango delta:

If lions can thrive there in the delta, than theres no place in india lions couldn't go.

At the same time the largest skulls of lion are only slightly bigger than the largest skulls of tiger. 
https://books.google.com/books?id=U...a=X&ei=TuCVVLSsEMzSoASU2oD4Dw&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAQ 

Tiger No. 2 were exactly the same length of carcase, but the skull of the lion is the bigger. 
https://books.google.com/books?id=Y...a=X&ei=TuCVVLSsEMzSoASU2oD4Dw&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAw

Alfred Pease: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Alfred_Pease,_2nd_Baronet 

The lion's skull is on the average longer than the tiger's, but the skulls in average -breadth are about equal. 
https://books.google.com/books?id=B...a=X&ei=lOGVVJXOIpeIoQTT14CoDQ&ved=0CBAQ6AEwBQ

Head of the smithsonian Biologist John seidensticker: 
[​IMG] 

it has been suggested that the tiger may have a proportionally smaller head than the lion
https://books.google.com/books?id=X...a=X&ei=qQCWVL3fDcbxoATVx4GwBg&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAg 


[​IMG]

! Now for the Lion of Kattywar or central Gezerat. In the B. S. M. for July, 1840, is a record of one there slain, of which we read : -——“ This Lion was 9 feet, with flowing mane, and altogether much more bulky than any Tiger I have killed
https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA221&lpg=PA221&dq=indian+lion+more+bulky+tiger&sig=CWF1DQmSUBpVhcaD-c49nnGHQxw&id=ivtWAAAAcAAJ&ots=NUHBTSwMnx#v=onepage&q=indian lion more bulky tiger&f=false


The bengal tiger is thinner an lighter than the lion
The Illustrated Magazine of Art, Volumes 3-4 
http://books.google.com/books?id=BR...X&ei=aZQGUOiWEIHg2gWah9S6BQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAzgK

The Tiger is almost as large as the Lion, but he has the most elegant dress. 
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA...ie=ISO-8859-1&ots=sGh2DHpF3s&output=html_text 

[​IMG]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspar_Whitney

There is also much exaggeration concerning size and weight. A tiger that measures ten feet from the tip of its nose to the end of its tail is a big one, and above the average, which is about nine and a half feet. Of course there are exceptions, as in all animal kind, but the majority of eleven and twelve foot tiger stories are fiction. I was unable during six months' hunting to find definite account of one even eleven feet in length. I did hear of several ranging from ten feet to ten feet six inches, and one of ten feet eight inches. So also with the weight, which is commonly written down at from 4oo to 5oo pounds, whereas the average will run from 3oo to 375 pounds, the latter being a good one and the former figure more near the average. 
http://books.google.com/books?dq=th...d=VCAuAAAAYAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html_text


You can validate the account in surat on the first post where the indian lion killed the tiger, it stated the tigers roar was not so deep and grand as the lions:

Bengal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQDv1IUho64&feature=youtu.be

Indian lion who too has a good sized mane:

Diad (Deesa).—This is a very hot station, but still much liked on account of the abundance of sport of all descriptions in the vicinity. It is the sole place in the known world where the lion and tiger prowl in the same jungles.

Underneath the drawing of the lion, you may see, in the distance, a rather slylooking animal stealing along gently, which is called the Tiger. This animal is said to be much more cruel and cowardly than the lion, and to be even more bloodthirsty; but all writers do not agree on this subject. In India the tigers are the terror of man, and the animals ofthe jungle. The jungles of India, where sometimes the grass grows to nearly the height of an elephant, is the tiger's sleeping place. In the evening, the tamer animals wander down to the side of the river, to drink and refresh themselves after the heat of the day; then the tiger is found there too, waiting for them. Many fierce and bloody combats with lions, tigers, and crocodiles are said to take place near the Ganges and other rivers of India.

 The lion, which was long supposed to be unknown in India, is now ascertained to exist in considerable numbers in the districts of Saharunpoor and Loodianah. Lions have likewise been killed on this side the Ganges in the northern parts of Rohilcund, in the neighbourhood of Moradabad and Rampoor, as large, it is said, as the average of those in the neighbourhood of the Cape of Good Hope. Both lions, where they are found, and tigers, are very troublesome to the people of the villages near the forest, who, having no elephants,



The district lying between this village, Tuwukkul and Lukeeke, is the favourite resort of lions and tigers: a few days previous to our arrival the inhabitants killed a very large tiger; and on the 7th we saw the recent traces of a lion, in a tamarisk jungle, 

https://books.google.com/books?id=P1YoAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA154&dq=%22india%22+lion+tiger++%22village+of%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwidntrKgeTKAhUS5mMKHXEBDdYQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=%22india%22%20lion%20tiger%20%20%22village%20of%22&f=false





Much of the talk in history books where they state the tiger drove the lion out of india is from citing misinformed information, for instance, self proclaimed scientist have stated tigers grow to 18 feet long (twice the length of a large tiger), 

 that tigers can leap 100 feet (5x the distance of a tigers almost farthest leap)

That siberians and bengals average 850+ lbs, and are twice as big as a lion. Most go off of second hand accounts which ends up just misinforming people in thinking tigers drove lions out of inida:





Tiger

Double edged sword: Both the tiger and the lion population would be affected

The NGO claims that the prey base of Kuno is limited, and is not sufficient even for the lions that are to be shifted. So, there would be intense competition between the lions and tigers, straying from Ranthambore, for the same prey. However, it is not just the relocated lions that would be at a disadvantage, as the tigers in Ranthambore could be equally impacted. As competition for prey increases, the lions may venture out of Kuno in search of food and enter Ranthambore through the shared corridor. This would then reduce the prey base of the tigers. Not only that, lions may even attack and kill tigers.

http://www.indiawest.com/blogs/tiger-lion-conflict-looms-large-in-kuno-ranthambore/article_79d646fe-e4f5-11e3-ae76-001a4bcf887a.html

I really dont think the tigers were a threat to lions on a whole scale as some history books proclaim, as tigers were often disputed by 40 lb wild dogs:


Screenshot (55)

So how would a tiger compete against a single lion let alone a pride of females or a coalition of males if they cant even be undisputed against a leopard?







Edited by Prime - 08-Feb-2016 at 17:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2016 at 18:49
It would depend upon the temperament/experience/fighting skills of the cats in question too.

Look at the example of the British circus lions pitted against game fighting dogs for betting purposes in the early 1800's..

The tame lion  'Nero' allowed himself - under sufferance - to be mauled by the dogs, but the violently disposed lion 'Wallace' seemed to enjoy the contest, & made short bloody work of the dogs, just as lions do in nature..


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2016 at 19:46
Yeah, I read on nero and wallace, and nero was his favorite lion, as the statue of nero was built on his grave...beatty stated that too, if by young they are fondled, spoiled and petted, they lose all their instinctive traits and judgement...but lions in general are completely different from all other big cats, there traits are more human like than big cat like. 

Mr. Padya talks about a asiatic lioness killing a croc, and that lions have large coalitions too in india:

As for the asiatic lion, I've been talking to some of the people authority's on the asiatic lion and have shared some of the historical conflicts with them...they all were blown away with how they have been in search of the two in the same area for whole decades of their research...they all hold the same theory of the big cats dont share the same habitat bit, I mentioned that the major rivers of fresh water would conjoin their two meeting regardless of their chosen habitats, since the rivers stretch for hundreds of miles and india is famous for having the largest rivers.  And I think the ashoka pillars are a good stable preference in paving the way of locating more co-existing places...google books is an excellent search engine to finding them, more precisely because of the edit tool...you can type in a specific data line...in its advance search like 1700 -1800...since we already know that lions were gone by the 19th century it helps narrow down all the books that may contain information on both being in the same area, and using rivers, creeks, water ect in with lions and tigers in india seems to yeild alot more sources of the two showing up in the same jungles...which is slowly proving me thinking that they fought alot more than what the officials claim to have stated that no record of them has ever been recorded.

Again, thats because none of them are looking in the right time frame, and the right places...if india has too a record base like newspaper archives like all the conflict circus fights we found so far,and book archives like google books, then I'm sure a similar search in their language would be able to get alot more documents on the two co-existing. This is key for their on going debate on the translocations of the asiatic lion, if they wanna know there true historical value, then the best way would be to send out a request to all the universitys or librarys in india that are housed near the major rivers...emails request dont take all that long, compared to looking through hundreds of books manually...but regardless...I think the with the asiatic lion returning in numbers will spark the interest of many other science fields of india along with historians who will most likely re-discover and reproduce the asiatic lions true heritage in india.

I'm starting to think that the asiatic lion had no difference compared to the african lion in weight and size of mane, temperament and social life style...if this is truely sasan gir national park

Whether if it is or aint...to much records show that the lion of india was large, had a mane and most zoo asiatic lions are quite big. Of course it will vary and slight differences are there, but its only slight, so small its not of any significance, compared to how most 90% of the media makes it out that tigers dwarf asiatic lions...lol But I'm quite pass the weights and sizes, I dont have to keep saying how heavy mike tyson is to know how much he was pretty much almost undisputed the track record doesnt lie...it will all come down to the actual fights, I dont really care for the statistics any more, we know them already, and repeating them would change nothing in the out come of a fight. The historic value on them in conflicts will hold more weight than all the records of their statistics ever written by man. even if challanger A has every single statsitical advantage over challanger B, if there is 100 cases of challanger B beating challanger A, and not have even half of vice versa exist, then that means the statistics is just your misconception of what you though mattered in a fight.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2016 at 20:38
Query.

What do they do to big cats; lions tigers etc...when found dead in the wild...How are they disposed of...

Would seem a shame if they end up as dog food or fertilizer...vulture carrion.

just think of the all them wigs them manes could help make for cancer ridden children.

amen.




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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2016 at 01:22
C.V. - if you could post a link that demonstrates that there'd be any kind of demand for such a use of lion mane hair.. as it seems on 1st glance, a somewhat doubtful prospect..

Was there some kind of mystical, or a curative.. property ascribed to such a hairpiece - in historical usage?

Hercules did famously/proudly wear the skin of the dreaded Nemean lion he'd valiantly ( & bare-handedly) vanquished, after all..

I might buy it - for use as a heavy-metal band head-bangin' costume/prop though..



& Prime, I expect their might well be some interesting historical data recording contacts by people with the Asiatic/Barbary lions  - available in the archives of the educated peoples - in the areas where they had lived together for centuries prior to final extirpation..

Edit: fixed typo.


Edited by J.A.W. - 08-Feb-2016 at 01:31
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2016 at 03:26
Originally posted by J.A.W.

C.V. - if you could post a link that demonstrates that there'd be any kind of demand for such a use of lion mane hair.. as it seems on 1st glance, a somewhat doubtful prospect..

Was there some kind of mystical, or a curative.. property ascribed to such a hairpiece - in historical usage?

Hercules did famously/proudly wear the skin of the dreaded Nemean lion he'd valiantly ( & bare-handedly) vanquished, after all..

I might buy it - for use as a heavy-metal band head-bangin' costume/prop though..



& Prime, I expect their might well be some interesting historical data recording contacts by people with the Asiatic/Barbary lions  - available in the archives of the educated peoples - in the areas where they had lived together for centuries prior to final extirpation..

Edit: fixed typo.

I agree.

 The bottom line is, we don't speak/read/write hindi...gujarati, bengali etc...so we cant access the historical news and book archives of lion and tigers in india, the same goes for any asiatic lions presence in asia; we can only find the bits and pieces of info there is in english which is only 1 in 1/1,000,000,000th of the records of the native land species on a 2,000 year time frame, and in the english language is only 1 out of a 100 European types of race/nationality of language preference...we cant look into roman history because none of us know Italian languages, that goes the same with many cultures on earth who probably already know the answer in their respective time frame and what is just oblivious to ours...but what is funny is the straight to the verdict type of people who have zero experience, zero knowledge, zero actual time with the animals, zero everything with subject who are ready to write conclusive information just because they read a few text on the subject written by some other unknown fool.

But it depends why you, me or any one will wanna be on the subject, do you want to make up your own story, your own statistics, your own fabrication, or do you wanna learn the truth, accept what is, and not what you probably intentionally wanted? 

I think we know the answer to that, most dont wanna know the truth, they wanna like what they like regardless... not because of the actual animal (since they have never seen, petted, fed, or co-existed with one in their entire lives) and...(no matter how much times they say that they did, if they didnt...then they never did), and will never grasp the concept or embodiment of what the truth will bestow upon the truth seekers...true knowledge, and true power... more so just some influential property like a movie, a song or trait that impacted that individual...the use and term of science is so abused now days that every one who sees a title with the word science on it, they think its the god given truth. 

To sum that all up, do I think lions would usually win against even a bigger or much bigger tiger 1 on 1 based on all the records available to compare captive wise, and wild wise...Yes I do. Do I think theres more records to prove so? Abso--lutely



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2016 at 15:30
Originally posted by J.A.W.



C.V. - if you could post a link that demonstrates that there'd be any kind of demand for such a use of lion mane hair.. as it seems on 1st glance, a somewhat doubtful prospect..
Was there some kind of mystical, or a curative.. property ascribed to such a hairpiece - in historical usage?
Hercules did famously/proudly wear the skin of the dreaded Nemean lion he'd valiantly ( & bare-handedly) vanquished, after all..
I might buy it - for use as a heavy-metal band head-bangin' costume/prop though..
& Prime, I expect their might well be some interesting historical data recording contacts by people with the Asiatic/Barbary lions  - available in the archives of the educated peoples - in the areas where they had lived together for centuries prior to final extirpation..
Edit: fixed typo.




I don't need to post a link.. tho I imagine if ya want a historical reference on the use of animal hair it starts as far back as the Egyptians if not earlier. It's a simple query... which hasn't been answered yet. What do they do with the remains...and for that matter in zoo's etc.

I'd personally hate to see these lads becoming fodder for vultures and jackals tho...they got to eat as well.

The majority of hair is human...donated that is. Though my taxidermy and salonists friends tell me that other non human hair would be perfectly acceptable if long enough to create a hair piece. Horse hair and goat hair has been used for centuries. It might require more preparation treatment for a lion....but it could be used in their opinions.

In the end I suppose I'm concerned with how the remains are treated...for all life...even after death...has value...and if it can be used to enhance the life of a little child... so much the better.

Better than gawdamn commercial fertilizer.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2016 at 15:50
Well, C.V. I had figured that you were extrapolating  something 'therapeutic' might apply from a lion mane wig..

Along the lines of a 'King's touch' semi-mystical healing power deal.

Certainly, in certain Asian cultures the use of big-cat body parts in traditional  'medicine' still continues.
Poaching for profit remains a concern, even when skins are banned for fashion trade purposes.

As for what becomes of the dead in the wild.. I'm guessing it depends who finds it..

Insects & smaller organisms can find most anything, & larger scavengers have their ways too..

Humans may take such things into their hands - 'Mad Cow Disease' was infamously traced to a dead zoo
animal being ground up into animal feed stocks & fed to cattle..

In the material Prime has posted, there are references to the skins & skulls of deceased animals being presented to interested parties.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2016 at 16:27
Fair enuff if it's nature taking it's course...but any other is a crime, afaic, less the law allows it for research etc..in helping to maintain their survival.

And them gawdamn poachers should be hanged.

amen.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2016 at 16:57
Hope tis helps answering to some extent the query.

http://www.maasai-association.org/lion.html

In the Maasai african tribe , there's a historical ceremony whereas a lion is hunted. Its a rite of bravery so as to say. The mane is  then used a headdress. 




The  tuff is kept as well and beaded by the women. 

Tho the mane could serve another more important? purpose as mentioned.
PS: The myth of Hercules and the Nemean lion , is this a historically accounted event or just a myth ? I kno there are paintings and depictions of them.  Open to perception I assume.




Edited by Diaz_Zapata - 08-Feb-2016 at 17:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2016 at 17:50
Many thanks. And in keeping with JAW's line of thinking; a lion mane wig; given such an explanation as you provide....indicating great personal courage....to a child suffering from disease.

Might then indeed encourage the fight a little one has to make.

I have seen and known many brave men. Some suffered more than others.

But the greatest bravery I have ever seen is the indomitable fortitude and optimism of a little one facing death.

The idea of the 'king of beasts' helping in this pleases me. And somehow seems as if it should be.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2016 at 18:23
No problem. I felt my explanation was more inclined towards the answer you were wanting as the query hadn't really been answered . 

In honesty All the big cats are imbued with many great attributes such as speed(cheetah), agility(leopard), strength (tiger and lion ), ferociousness, bravery, courage etc.. 

As science says the cat is one animal nature got right first time around. Yup even the domestic house cat.
To the lion the mane serves another very important purpose other than fighting- a signal of attractiveness and gene quality to females for mating. Not sure if this has been touched on. 

This link may interest those who would like to read it 

http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/feature/2005/3/the-lions-mane

Tho this article starts with saying the mane is ' neither a token of royalty nor a shield for fighting.' 

To sum up - Absolutely- the greatest bravery is as how you said of a little one fighting a battle.



 


Edited by Diaz_Zapata - 08-Feb-2016 at 18:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2016 at 19:17
Originally posted by Diaz_Zapata

No problem. I felt my explanation was more inclined towards the answer you were wanting as the query hadn't really been answered . 

In honesty All the big cats are imbued with many great attributes such as speed(cheetah), agility(leopard), strength (tiger and lion ), ferociousness, bravery, courage etc.. 

As science says the cat is one animal nature got right first time around. Yup even the domestic house cat.
To the lion the mane serves another very important purpose other than fighting- a signal of attractiveness and gene quality to females for mating. Not sure if this has been touched on. 

This link may interest those who would like to read it 

http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/feature/2005/3/the-lions-mane

Tho this article starts with saying the mane is ' neither a token of royalty nor a shield for fighting.

To sum up - Absolutely- the greatest bravery is as how you said of a little one fighting a battle.

I peg the differ...even the most die hard pro-tiger community's who wish to belittle and debar the lions presence in india, admits to the lions mane being a symbol of royalty:


This is world wide:

Compared to the puny, tiny and insignificant amount of heraldic status the tiger has:

The only thing I ever agreed with Valmik thapar was, that the tiger should remain the national symbol of india, to better help the tiger population rise, as he stated the lion was indias national animal for the past 2,000 years and it did not help his conservation efforts, in fact this could most likely be the reason why the british targeted the lions in the british war more than any other animal.

And the mane has been proven to offer up a degree of protection, whether some one wants to admit or not.

People have only opined the mane offers no protection, none have any tangible proof it offers zero protection, I can state the tigers neck fur offers up no protection, because I can cite in almost a hundred cases from photos, videos and abstracts specifically showing the tigers neck with puncture wounds on it, none of the people who are saying they have scientific proof can do the same. One or two incidents to show that it doesnt offer up any protection, that would just show its not impenetrable, it would take over a 100 cases of male lions with large manes  on video, photo and abstracts to show it offers minimum protection. And still to this day, even the two greatest mane theorizers against the mane packer and peyton, havent a single photo/video of a well maned lion with his neck torn out...not one.

I think it goes, cheetah/speed...leopard/agility...jaguar/aquatic...pumas/skill...tigers/stealth...lions/power.

To me now, tigers dont radiate any type of power or strength no matter what size they can attain, a giraffe is the tallest and one of the heaviest animals on the planet and makes the tiger look like a house cat in size, yet I dont see giraffes as an embodiment of power and strength in terms of action, to much sources from natives, naturalist, hunters and scientist have all stated the tiger is cowardly, something which doesnt live in the open and willing to challenge all comers, cant be affiliated with true strength.


Under Brmhpuri Vnvibag Tlodhi Vnprikshetr Neri subregions and Boddha bit of room in the car .455 Sarngd-Lawari path in the woods near a tiger was found dead on Monday evening. Dead tiger severe bruises on the neck of the teeth appeared.

According to Deputy Director of Tiger Reserve Tirki Mrs. Anjana P -212 shoulders, thighs, neck, were found in a total of 21 wounds.


Edited by Prime - 08-Feb-2016 at 19:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2016 at 21:20
Originally posted by Prime

Originally posted by Diaz_Zapata

No problem. I felt my explanation was more inclined towards the answer you were wanting as the query hadn't really been answered . 

In honesty All the big cats are imbued with many great attributes such as speed(cheetah), agility(leopard), strength (tiger and lion ), ferociousness, bravery, courage etc.. 

As science says the cat is one animal nature got right first time around. Yup even the domestic house cat.
To the lion the mane serves another very important purpose other than fighting- a signal of attractiveness and gene quality to females for mating. Not sure if this has been touched on. 

This link may interest those who would like to read it 

http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/feature/2005/3/the-lions-mane

Tho this article starts with saying the mane is ' neither a token of royalty nor a shield for fighting.

To sum up - Absolutely- the greatest bravery is as how you said of a little one fighting a battle.

I peg the differ...even the most die hard pro-tiger community's who wish to belittle and debar the lions presence in india, admits to the lions mane being a symbol of royalty:


This is world wide:

Compared to the puny, tiny and insignificant amount of heraldic status the tiger has:

The only thing I ever agreed with Valmik thapar was, that the tiger should remain the national symbol of india, to better help the tiger population rise, as he stated the lion was indias national animal for the past 2,000 years and it did not help his conservation efforts, in fact this could most likely be the reason why the british targeted the lions in the british war more than any other animal.

And the mane has been proven to offer up a degree of protection, whether some one wants to admit or not.

People have only opined the mane offers no protection, none have any tangible proof it offers zero protection, I can state the tigers neck fur offers up no protection, because I can cite in almost a hundred cases from photos, videos and abstracts specifically showing the tigers neck with puncture wounds on it, none of the people who are saying they have scientific proof can do the same. One or two incidents to show that it doesnt offer up any protection, that would just show its not impenetrable, it would take over a 100 cases of male lions with large manes  on video, photo and abstracts to show it offers minimum protection. And still to this day, even the two greatest mane theorizers against the mane packer and peyton, havent a single photo/video of a well maned lion with his neck torn out...not one.

I think it goes, cheetah/speed...leopard/agility...jaguar/aquatic...pumas/skill...tigers/stealth...lions/power.

To me now, tigers dont radiate any type of power or strength no matter what size they can attain, a giraffe is the tallest and one of the heaviest animals on the planet and makes the tiger look like a house cat in size, yet I dont see giraffes as an embodiment of power and strength in terms of action, to much sources from natives, naturalist, hunters and scientist have all stated the tiger is cowardly, something which doesnt live in the open and willing to challenge all comers, cant be affiliated with true strength.


Under Brmhpuri Vnvibag Tlodhi Vnprikshetr Neri subregions and Boddha bit of room in the car .455 Sarngd-Lawari path in the woods near a tiger was found dead on Monday evening. Dead tiger severe bruises on the neck of the teeth appeared.

According to Deputy Director of Tiger Reserve Tirki Mrs. Anjana P -212 shoulders, thighs, neck, were found in a total of 21 wounds.

Plz. Kindly desist from the rudeness. Furthermore there is no need to highlight my text in bold & such large font . I read you without the need of that.

I answered the query to do with how the mane can and is used for other purposes. For example the headdress. However the hair of the mane could serve a better and more important purpose- a hair wig as aforementioned. Which to me is a well thought out concept.

And you have posted so much going off the tangent.

How I list the attributes to each big cat may not be how you match them. I also beg to differ here . I still have the order I mentioned . Cheetah ( speed), leopard (agility & strength), jaguar (athleticism & strength), lion ( power), and tiger ( athleticism & power).
But tis isn't really relevant as we are discussing the mane. Which is why I linked the addresses for any further reading.

It appears as tho you have taken this personally.  Everyone's perception of things, facts may not be to each's liking & abuse is not needed if one doesn't like it.  So once again plz desist from personal attacks.  Thanks.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2016 at 21:35
Originally posted by Diaz_Zapata

Originally posted by Prime

Originally posted by Diaz_Zapata

No problem. I felt my explanation was more inclined towards the answer you were wanting as the query hadn't really been answered . 

In honesty All the big cats are imbued with many great attributes such as speed(cheetah), agility(leopard), strength (tiger and lion ), ferociousness, bravery, courage etc.. 

As science says the cat is one animal nature got right first time around. Yup even the domestic house cat.
To the lion the mane serves another very important purpose other than fighting- a signal of attractiveness and gene quality to females for mating. Not sure if this has been touched on. 

This link may interest those who would like to read it 

http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/feature/2005/3/the-lions-mane

Tho this article starts with saying the mane is ' neither a token of royalty nor a shield for fighting.

To sum up - Absolutely- the greatest bravery is as how you said of a little one fighting a battle.

I peg the differ...even the most die hard pro-tiger community's who wish to belittle and debar the lions presence in india, admits to the lions mane being a symbol of royalty:


This is world wide:

Compared to the puny, tiny and insignificant amount of heraldic status the tiger has:

The only thing I ever agreed with Valmik thapar was, that the tiger should remain the national symbol of india, to better help the tiger population rise, as he stated the lion was indias national animal for the past 2,000 years and it did not help his conservation efforts, in fact this could most likely be the reason why the british targeted the lions in the british war more than any other animal.

And the mane has been proven to offer up a degree of protection, whether some one wants to admit or not.

People have only opined the mane offers no protection, none have any tangible proof it offers zero protection, I can state the tigers neck fur offers up no protection, because I can cite in almost a hundred cases from photos, videos and abstracts specifically showing the tigers neck with puncture wounds on it, none of the people who are saying they have scientific proof can do the same. One or two incidents to show that it doesnt offer up any protection, that would just show its not impenetrable, it would take over a 100 cases of male lions with large manes  on video, photo and abstracts to show it offers minimum protection. And still to this day, even the two greatest mane theorizers against the mane packer and peyton, havent a single photo/video of a well maned lion with his neck torn out...not one.

I think it goes, cheetah/speed...leopard/agility...jaguar/aquatic...pumas/skill...tigers/stealth...lions/power.

To me now, tigers dont radiate any type of power or strength no matter what size they can attain, a giraffe is the tallest and one of the heaviest animals on the planet and makes the tiger look like a house cat in size, yet I dont see giraffes as an embodiment of power and strength in terms of action, to much sources from natives, naturalist, hunters and scientist have all stated the tiger is cowardly, something which doesnt live in the open and willing to challenge all comers, cant be affiliated with true strength.


Under Brmhpuri Vnvibag Tlodhi Vnprikshetr Neri subregions and Boddha bit of room in the car .455 Sarngd-Lawari path in the woods near a tiger was found dead on Monday evening. Dead tiger severe bruises on the neck of the teeth appeared.

According to Deputy Director of Tiger Reserve Tirki Mrs. Anjana P -212 shoulders, thighs, neck, were found in a total of 21 wounds.

Plz. Kindly desist from the rudeness. Furthermore there is no need to highlight my text in bold & such large font . I read you without the need of that.

I answered the query to do with how the mane can and is used for other purposes. For example the headdress. However the hair of the mane could serve a better and more important purpose- a hair wig as aforementioned. Which to me is a well thought out concept.

And you have posted so much going off the tangent.

How I list the attributes to each big cat may not be how you match them. I also beg to differ here . I still have the order I mentioned . Cheetah ( speed), leopard (agility & strength), jaguar (athleticism & strength), lion ( power), and tiger ( athleticism & power).
But tis isn't really relevant as we are discussing the mane. Which is why I linked the addresses for any further reading.

It appears as tho you have taken this personally.  Everyone's perception of things, facts may not be to each's liking & abuse is not needed if one doesn't like it.  So once again plz desist from personal attacks.  Thanks.


lol highlight in bold lettering's exactly which sentence of mine was the personal attack?

 This thread is called the asiatic lion thread, not the lions mane thread which already has another thread titled that...I took nothing personal, and I actually still stayed on topic while killing two birds with one stone...as valmik was specifically talking about the asiatic lion, a refute in what...you... brought up, that the lions mane is not known any where of a royal symbol, the only one took it personally is you, since again two birds with one stone, all the flags in the world dwarf the heraldic status of lions over the tiger, you think posting one source makes all of it dissapear? 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2016 at 21:53
You altered my text in larger font& bold when it was not necessary to do so. I read your response without the need of that. And gave you an explanation.  My opinion may not be in coherence with yours. However that doesn't call for the tone in which you are sending me messages.

Indeed it is about the asiatic lion . To be fair If you need an explanation then I will say it once more .
Did you read what the query was in the first instance coz you didn't answer it which was affirmed in this statement ' It's a simple query... which hasn't been answered yet' by Centrix Vigilis. And I answered it with some information about the mane.

Imo if you hadn't taken it personal then you wouldn't still be going on about it. So again , kindly cease to be aggressive & personal. 
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