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Gunman identified in shooting deaths of 4 Marines

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Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Gunman identified in shooting deaths of 4 Marines
    Posted: 17-Jul-2015 at 09:32
4 more for the 'Guard Company' at the Gates of Heaven.

Rest easy men...rest in peace.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/07/17/shooting-reported-at-chattanooga-army-recruiting-center-college-on-lockdown/

Salutes for all.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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  Quote J.A.W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2015 at 17:02
US Forces on duty - ought perhaps have a sidearm kept handy.

Certainly - if its good enough for off-duty cops to do so..
Be Modest In Thyself..
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2015 at 10:20
The current law and executive decision does not allow it.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2015 at 10:40
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

The current law and executive decision does not allow it.



According to a certain Sargent Major I know Every recruiter is packing something.

He said that carries over to anyone who has to wear the uniform off base.

His wife's reaction was "common sense rules, and over rides any orders from someone in a suit"


.
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2015 at 10:47
Just read that one of the Navy guys who was shot, has died. That makes the total 5 dead.


"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2015 at 11:12
Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

The current law and executive decision does not allow it.



According to a certain Sargent Major I know Every recruiter is packing something.

He said that carries over to anyone who has to wear the uniform off base.

His wife's reaction was "common sense rules, and over rides any orders from someone in a suit"


.


I didn't say they might not being doing it ole dog...I said ''The current law and executive decision does not allow it.''

Which means they are subject to UCMJ if caught. Or a 'finished' career if an incident occurs; even if the circumstances were to exonerate them viz self defense.

Since 93..it was decided, in an alleged effort to lower military suicide rates, to establish a non carry policy on base and off ie. federal properties. Other than those carried by Fed LE officers or contract security officers.

The policy for service members on base either in quarters or barracks was to register pow's with the Provost Marhsall's office (ie. MP's) and they be stored in an arms room or in a secured fashion in quarters. To my knowledge there has been no change to that.

The lone exception to a 'normal' service member was that of the unit armorer who was authorized to be armed in his/her arms room during normal duty hours...to provide additional security for the unit's arms/sensitive items.

Recruiters ere prohibited due to negative pr.

Problem there is there never were provisions made to secure these fed properties or personnel with contract security....as it was determined to be to costly. Unlike Post Offices and Courts.

All military personnel must meet all state and fed policies to own and or carry (concealed or other) as their civilian counterparts..to begin with.

It's the addition of the ED that prohibits it; unless for hunting or rec purposes accepted by the DOD during 'non duty hours'.

Transportation..for all purposes is the same. State and fed laws must be observed.

A recent and more disturbing DoD revelation is that now, 'off post' housed personnel, are now being required to register with the PM if they wish to bring them on post for rec purposes. And that may or may not face a court challenge.

www.gpo.gov/.../CFR-2008


When it's all said and done... DoD policy trumps state law. And the 2nd Amendment rights of service members.

My best to that SMG and his lady.

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2015 at 11:48
That's all well and good, but I happen to think a lot of folks will have the att. "we'll take that chance". That Sargent Major retires in 3 mons. I don't think he much gives a damn about all of that, he has a family that depends on him to be around.

Much the same as our son in law, who is a uniformed Motorcycle cop not far from Chattanooga. His wife[our daughter,] packs a 9mm at all times, and she is a trauma nurse.

In some parts of the country, the majority of folks are packing something.
I own an ancient but serviceable Thompson 38 cal. long barreled. Legal, as long as I don't carry it concealed.






Edited by red clay - 18-Jul-2015 at 12:16
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2015 at 12:02
someone deleted my post here?
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2015 at 13:34
Originally posted by Mosquito

someone deleted my post here?


If you believe a post was deleted. PM Red with an inquiry.
CV
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2015 at 13:36
Originally posted by red clay

That's all well and good, but I happen to think a lot of folks will have the att. "we'll take that chance". That Sargent Major retires in 3 mons. I don't think he much gives a damn about all of that, he has a family that depends on him to be around.

Much the same as our son in law, who is a uniformed Motorcycle cop not far from Chattanooga. His wife[our daughter,] packs a 9mm at all times, and she is a trauma nurse.

In some parts of the country, the majority of folks are packing something.
I own an ancient but serviceable Thompson 38 cal. long barreled. Legal, as long as I don't carry it concealed.






I don't disagree old friend. Merely pointing out policy. That it's deficient is obvious.

And for all those brave souls and families my heartfelt thanks.

And that's enuff said.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote J.A.W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2015 at 17:17
Thanks for the update & policy info, guys.

Seems to be needful that a proper number of nominated/authorised NCOs really should be doing 'US Marshal' duties & 'riding shotgun' - in such circumstances..

To be a clear potential target sans defence just aint right IMO..
..just as in Afghanistan when local 'friendlies' go rogue..
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2015 at 21:35
''Marine recruiters told not to wear uniforms after attack''

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story/military/2015/07/18/marine-recruiters-told-not--wear-uniforms-offices-closed/30353587/

Never in my life time did I ever believe that this could occur...I have grown to old.


This on the other hand is a solution.


''Governors Authorize National Guard to be Armed After Chattanooga Attack''


http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/chattanooga-shooting/governors-order-national-guardsmen-be-armed-after-chattenooga-attack-n394476

** They reserve the right to do so when their soldiers-guardsmen are not on an active duty status; as the CIC of their state forces.


"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2015 at 10:10
Originally posted by Mosquito

someone deleted my post here?




I contacted Mosquito by PM. After I deleted the post. He expressed a valid fear, however he could have done it differently.


"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2015 at 14:16
Everything explained and understood....
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote J.A.W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2015 at 16:50
Does this mean the USMC will also relinquish its US Embassy guard
role in favour of a privatised 'Blackwater' style security force?

Seems really odd that such private agencies, going way back to the
'Pinkertons' have more rights than US Forces, in America..
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2015 at 19:14
Originally posted by J.A.W.

Does this mean the USMC will also relinquish its US Embassy guard
role in favour of a privatised 'Blackwater' style security force?

Seems really odd that such private agencies, going way back to the
'Pinkertons' have more rights than US Forces, in America..


That's already been done ie. Afghanistan...see the AGI-AGNA scandals under the Billary's watch ref...warlord payoffs and sex scandals involving violations of the 'Trafficking Victims Protection Act'....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmorGroup#Warlord_and_Sex_Trafficking_Scandal_in_Afghanistan

And then Benghazi become well known.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/hillary-clintons-benghazi-emails-to-be-released-by-state-department-1432309888

The liberal progrssives; hate this idea of arming SM's in off post capacities...it doesn't fit their anti-2nd amendment agenda...all contrary to their rhetoric...ie. their façade of love and respect for American SM's.

The only one's who truly mean it, in my experience, I can count on one hand.

One is Joe Biden.
The other is Red Clay.

They care.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote J.A.W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2015 at 00:03
Ta C.V..

What I don't get is why the uniformed US Forces are left defenceless,( other than SP/MP/AP units)
- but other Federal Agencies.. NSA,FBI, DEA, BATF, DHS, & etc, all routinely pack heat - in public..
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2015 at 08:48
Because of variations in the laws governing DoD personnel and or Fed LE agencies. Much of it deals with mission requirements and objectives coupled to the 'requirement' of arms to enhance personnel-personal security in the performance of said duties.

The 93 Ed for example was based on a policy change actually authorized under the Bush 41 admin in 92. That was DoD directive 5210.56.

And to be clear.... it dealt with military and civilian LE personnel, assigned to the military, primarily. It in turn was based on an earlier 86 directive.

See: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a272176.pdf

In actuality it has been a misconception that personnel routinely walked around carrying weapons for just any reasons. Iow. it was a 'norm'.

Because it was not. Then or now.

Individual weapons issuance and possession, (ie. the weapon went with the man, even when transferred elsewhere) during an entire service member's tour.... hasn't been seen since the Korean war.

As late as the mid Vietnam era it was routine for weapons storage to be in open racks in a barracks...but even then they were under guard and ammunition was separated and stored elsewhere for security reasons.

Usually in the supply room in a locked cage and then the actual quantity was limited.

Otoh, when mission and or training required it, then and now, weapons will be seen. Ammunition may not necessarily be issued. Depends on mission parameters.

Historically, the concern post WW2, has been the security of the weapon not the personnel, in general... because of the presence and mission of Mil LE personnel. Iow. MP's were available to respond as this was their primary focus and responsibility.

This in turn was and until recently based on a focus, that the soldier, in America, on post, or off, was not considered a 'target' perse... of an opposing force-individual...other than the obvious war state or a local area nutbag. In or out of uniform, service member or civilian.

The thinking was and is that Mil LE units or off post LE civilian agencies (in that case) were sufficient. And in 99% of the cases they are...and do an outstanding job of keeping the peace and securing lives and property.

As such there is also the philosophy that the average SM is a 'war fighter-supporter' not a policeman... and is not trained as one...consequently a 'need' for him-her to be contiounsly armed, while on duty, is not necessary. As that job, as indicated above, is already assigned to people specifically trained to perform it.

Historically, the DoD has not been required to respond to a threat of organized or lone wolf terroristic actions in a long time...other than respond with it's LE personnel..and that's been and remains the preferred solution.

In point of fact, the requirement for all personnel to be armed presents it's own security-logistical problems. otoh, when and if a necessity arises, for an entire garrison's, combat personnel; as well as 'le' to be armed...it certainly can be done.

But in general, the policy has been effective.

ntl, It appears that a reexamination and increase of security must be adopted. On post, currently, vice 911, it's quite tight. off post is another issue.

The services, contrary to belief, are always conscience reference security.

But that conscience, is also impacted on by historical experience and political ramifications and ideology. As in the end, the separation authority is not military...but civilian.

And it's been that way since we began.

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2015 at 09:04
It's been a long time since I stood payroll guard armed to protect the pay officer the money and the soldiers paid.

It's been a long time sinc I WAS the pay office.

It's been a long time since I walked interior or exterior guard ensuring the security of arms and munitions to include 'special ones'... vehicles, aircraft and property.

It's been a long time since I was the Officer in Command of the guard.

But all I can do is pray that those same men-women and officers remain safe here at home or elsewhere. I'll will ask the circle to keep them in the chant.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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