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The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down..

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J.A.W. View Drop Down
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  Quote J.A.W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down..
    Posted: 12-Jul-2015 at 18:28
Did they play this famous old song when the grand ol' CSA battle-flag was finally hauled down from its position on the South Carolina State array?
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2015 at 09:32
Given that the flag wasn't raised until 1962, and it was a direct effect of the Civil Rights movement, no. No bands, no fanfare.

The flag was raised by the "Dixiecrats" in defiance of the Fed Gov.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2015 at 09:49

That flag represented many things but was not the official flag of the Confederacy. It was rejected as such and thus became the 'battle flag' of the ANV. Nor was it alone as battle flag.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America


But in truth it became a much later hated symbol.

Consequently the National flags of Spain-England and the US should equally bear burden if the association is meant to represent the shame of slavery.

Will they be removed from any battle monuments-Federal Buildings-Consulates etc?

Will native American reservations remove the Stars and Stripes from their properties?

Weill the French and Dutch, Spanish and Mexican require a similar action in defiance of the loss of their colonies?

No need to respond..I already know the answers.

All this remains is a 'leftist democrat' sop to the AAC to ensure their real slavery ie. ongoing conformance and support for failed social policies... iow.their allegiance to the same.

amen.
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2015 at 10:03
CV, your dancing around a reality, that flag was raised as a direct response to the Civil Rights movement. It was removed because it had become a symbol of Hate and exclusion, no left, no right.

I'm more than a little surprised by your post. You wouldn't mind then, if someone flys the Nazi Swastika, or the "Rising Sun".

"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2015 at 10:28
Originally posted by red clay

CV, your dancing around a reality, that flag was raised as a direct response to the Civil Rights movement. It was removed because it had become a symbol of Hate and exclusion, no left, no right.

I'm more than a little surprised by your post. You wouldn't mind then, if someone flys the Nazi Swastika, or the "Rising Sun".



Nope no dancing ole son...reporting the truth. I don't deny that it was an instruement of the rejection of the CRM...Note: ''But in truth it became a much later hated symbol.''


But if u assume that is the only reason for it's rejection u err. It represented slavery as an issue then as it does now. Civil rights for AA did not exist until the 14th amendment. Cant dodge that. The evolution of the same was for nearly a 100 years a long and bitter and much overdo necessity.

No doubt.

Given the historic contex there was no other way.

But at heart it wasn't a peace of cloth that burden should have been bestowed on... but the mindset of the bigots...then and now.. 'who used it' as a mechanism to perpetrate the racism.

It and the other flags mentioned represented proportionally until a much later date. ie 1865...or until the abolishment of the policy the same. How long did the US flag fly above slavery prior to 1865?


Iow. In turn this current effort remains nothing more than what I id' a liberal leftist promotion of the DP to retain their political base in the AA community. The same party who traces their roots to slave states

The hypocrisy is ripe. The liberal leftist and progressive learned long ago that dissimulation was key to their agenda.

The political right falls in line because it's pc. Not because they may or may not have a legit concern with failed socialist welfare policies perped by the DP towards the AAC. Or the AAC at large period.

The left uses this not as the appropriate symbol rejection it should be but as a tool to retain it's existence and status as feigned champions of the minorities in the nation.

Cant dodge it ole Son. And I know you don't like it but there it is.

As for broken crosses and suns?

U already know better.

I hate the fucers as symbols of what they represented.

But in context, afaic, that's an apple orange issue as relates to degree of representation and the historical effects of those who used them as symbols. Which was the more horrendous... slavery in America or Nazi's trying to exterminate an ethnic group and enslave an entire world?


Tis all relative ole Red.

Otoh, I swore an oath that by nature requires me to allow for the individual's right of representation-speech-expression...no matter how gawdamn detestable I find it. So let the fucers fly. It's their right.

And until others can say they have done the same (taken that oath) or have had family that did and appreciate it...then I merely right em off.

And you understand that better than most...so why the surprise?

I'm not here defending the ANV battleflag and what, post 1865 ,it came to represent. Any more than I defend them fucing wackos in Idaho shouting zieg heil.

Far from it.

But this is as much about today's American politics ie. mid 20th ce- present-pcness; as it is about redressing and accepting responsibility and apologising for past historical action.

So lets haul down the Stars and Stripes as well. Because it once represented slavery. And no matter how hard ya try ya cant dodge it.
And for that matter for all those sic f**ks out there in Idaho it still does.

Amen.







Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 13-Jul-2015 at 11:33
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2015 at 09:25
I was always considering the Confederate flag as the symbol of South and the desire for freedom of Southerners who were finaly subdued by Yankees. The British, French, German, Belgians also had black and not only black slaves or even committed mass atrocities in their colonies. Yet their flags are not considered to be related with opression and manslaughter. So the confederate flag was also (imho) a symbol of freedom for many but also the symbol of bravery and valour of Southern soldiers. Before abolition in the northern states were slaves too. Not to mention the fact that USA has committed mass slaughter of Indians. But the US flag is not considered as the symbol of opression.
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  Quote J.A.W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2015 at 00:21
I recently re-watched the somewhat revisionistic movie 'Glory',
& I did enjoy the acting, even if the movie virtually ignores the concerns of CSA,
( & gave only grudging acknowledgement of their valour/fighting accomplishments, while glossing over the faults of the Unionists..
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  Quote J.A.W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2015 at 00:26
Funny too that villains in American movies are often given
a Southern states, or even English, accent, with the social/educational class portrayed - likewise relating to the perceived intelligence of the individual ( but not cruelty) concerned..

High class = cruel & commanding, but arrogantly stupid.
Low class = cruel & sneaky/cunning, but greedily stupid.

Edited by J.A.W. - 20-Jul-2015 at 00:31
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2015 at 07:03
As it is said, the history is written by the victors, not by the defeated. The South lost the war and is condemned, the Southerners and their symbols are considered almost as bad as nazists in WW2.....

If I was a Southerner whose ancestors fought in civil war I would have been really angry!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKih6b7IssA

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  Quote Aeoli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2015 at 12:35
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis


That flag represented many things but was not the official flag of the Confederacy. It was rejected as such and thus became the 'battle flag' of the ANV. Nor was it alone as battle flag.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America


But in truth it became a much later hated symbol.

Consequently the National flags of Spain-England and the US should equally bear burden if the association is meant to represent the shame of slavery.

Will they be removed from any battle monuments-Federal Buildings-Consulates etc?

Will native American reservations remove the Stars and Stripes from their properties?

Weill the French and Dutch, Spanish and Mexican require a similar action in defiance of the loss of their colonies?

No need to respond..I already know the answers.

All this remains is a 'leftist democrat' sop to the AAC to ensure their real slavery ie. ongoing conformance and support for failed social policies... iow.their allegiance to the same.

amen.

May I think that you are Southern White?


or  "No need to respond..I already know the answers.LOL


The story of CSA-USA is like 

Evil Sparta and Good Athens  or

Evil Communism and Good West. Not Real just Mythic

It will be good to hear q summarize the difference of USA and CSA from the Dixie People

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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2015 at 13:36
U can think what u like...but the answer to your question is no.

I am from the Llano.

And that part of my home state was occupied by Comanches and Lipan Apaches with an occasional foray by the S. Cheyenne and Utes...during the time frame of the ACW.

After settlement by Anglos...it became an area of predominately northern sympathizers; as the culture and traditions reflected those of the central and northern great plains..who were definitely not sympathetic to the 'lost cause'.
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  Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2015 at 14:29
The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down was written in 1969 by Robbie Robertson. He did some of the work on it at the Woodstock Music Festival, assisted by Levon Helm. Their band performed it over the next couple of years. Joan Baez noticed it & liked it, and her famous version was played often on the radio in the summer of 1971, when those of us of a certain age first enjoyed listening to it. Baez apparently only heard the song performed & never actually saw Robertson's written lyrics, so the lyrics in her rendition are a bit different from the original ones.

It's understandable that it's become an anthem of the working-class Southerners of the old Confederacy. It does a good job of rendering their feelings of duty and local patriotism into musical form. But it's really a Sixties protest anti-war song, and deals with the misery and futility of war, from the point of view of the thousands of Southern farmboys (as well as Northern farmboys) who gave their lives fighting in the Civil War, after their  leaders had failed to find a peaceful political solution to the issues which caused the conflict.


Edited by Windemere - 20-Jul-2015 at 14:32
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  Quote Aeoli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2015 at 05:47
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

U can think what u like...but the answer to your question is no.

I am from the Llano.

And that part of my home state was occupied by Comanches and Lipan Apaches with an occasional foray by the S. Cheyenne and Utes...during the time frame of the ACW.

After settlement by Anglos...it became an area of predominately northern sympathizers; as the culture and traditions reflected those of the central and northern great plains..who were definitely not sympathetic to the 'lost cause'.

That is a suprise for me. I always thought that Texas culturally part of South and doesn't like North

But I don't think that my guess is totally wrong Big smile  
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2015 at 16:12
Pretty but not very illuminating. You need to read a history about Tejas...not some wiki splotch probably contributed by some Bachelors degree holder from the NW....ie NYC or Boston.

I recommend 'Lone Star: A History of Texas and Texans' by T. R. Fehrenbach.

Tejas is-was a multi faceted cultural environment 250 years ago to now. What you are perceiving is the former and sometimes now attitudes of the SE-E-NE regions of the state.

If you look on a map...anything west of I35 was Comanche country..north to the Red River and beyond...this went as far south as present day San Antonio. The Comanche as a rule did not keep 'black slaves'....they were equal opportunists-race relations neutral-affirmative actions oriented-in their captures.

If you were fortunate enough to be taken alive...iow. didn't lose your hair and were not burnt alive over a cactus...race-sex-politics and or religion didn't matter.

The representations of the 'old south' in many cases by those who have never lived there are as bad as the stereotypes that can be found anywhere.... reference anyone.

As for Tejas...We don't like anybody. Until. You have proven different.

The factual truth is that only those areas id above, might be included in the concept of an 'old south'. North Texas ie. the panhandle and the western regions of the state do not id themselves with the idea.

They were and remain influenced by German-Scandinavian-Czech and Scots/Irish-English immigrants; Spanish and Native historical cultures and traditions.

Don't mean they were not or remain bigoted....that's common anywhere.

But it does mean they consider themselves 'westerners' and not from the 'old south'.

Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 22-Jul-2015 at 16:27
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  Quote Aeoli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2015 at 05:38
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Pretty but not very illuminating. You need to read a history about Tejas...not some wiki splotch probably contributed by some Bachelors degree holder from the NW....ie NYC or Boston. 

Well, it is up to where you looking from. I can write an article about the difference of people in Asian side of İstanbul and European side of İstanbul, but I don't thing you can. We use generalizations for the issue which we don't know deeply. Of course there will be some difference.

Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

But it does mean they consider themselves 'westerners' and not from the 'old south'.

This is Texas opinion. What about, people in Alaska or New York?
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2015 at 07:58
Texans in general and certainly from the north and or west sections are not concerned with opinions from New York.

Alaskans are much like Texans in the uniqness of the historic record and general attitudes towards non-Alaskans.

Iow. don't presume to claim/gain expertise based on wiki entries...even in the generalist perspective...as all you do is alienate them....thru demonstration of ignorance...at best.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2015 at 08:07

All of this is actually immaterial. As the fact remains that Texas can just as easily be left out of the 'old south' concept entirely as easily as parts of it might be included.

Historically and geographically. Economically and Culturally. Given the context of the era of the ACW. Any other perception of it is   incorrect. And the scholars, such as Fherenbach, have already demonstrated that to the satisfaction of all concerned.


Except the deliberate revisionist...or woefully misinformed.
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