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Topic ClosedAfrican lion vs Grizzly Bear

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: African lion vs Grizzly Bear
    Posted: 27-Feb-2016 at 17:12
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2015 at 14:25
Thanks

as for the spammer who is just trying to cover up the sources previously showed of the lions bite force, the lion that used in that study was a 2 year old juvinile and nearly maneless lion done by Mr Brady barr:
45324501 57

45324501 60

who he had his own show:

The record bite as shown on the previous page by a lion was nearly 10,000 newtons, there is no record on hand of tigers even biting 5,000 newtons, which would be just half the lions biting strength, as shown, the lion has a much stronger breaking point, a bigger skull and refferences that show its psi range, it would be illogical to think that a tiger who has a smaller skull, weaker canine breaking point and hunts much smaller animals on average, which all points to a weaker jaw strength over all, toppled in with its longer fangs, in terms breaking point, anyone can test this theory, break a fully long pencil, than take a pencil the size of half of your finger and try to break that one, the shorter will be nearly impossible to break, while the longer one snaps as easy a s twig.

And heres another account between a (as stated) huge bear:

article211294395 5 001

Sadly for all the time tigers have lived with bears, there isnt a single account of a siberian tiger killing a full grown male, which suspects it to being out of the tigers capabilitys, ambush or not...for the same reason a tiger couldnt just ambush a sleeping bull elephant and kill it. The size and knowledge of bears habits would be too great for the tiger to want to challange, if any bear was in the same vicinity of lions like tigers usually are, I would assume there would be reportings of the hundreds where bears are killed.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2015 at 09:17
Thread has been reopened.
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2015 at 17:46
Thread closed.

Personalities and conflicts that potentially result in Coc violations will work no better here, than elsewhere.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2015 at 17:35
I can do that once not twice... for now this account and the Kratos are suspended. I can appreciate your claim of not deliberately doing this and that bugs are the problems. Ntl the security of the forum requires that I take all necessary action to safeguard it.

I will again relay these problems to the admin. Be patient..as he is currently not available.

Do not create another account. If you do I will ban you period.. And while I regret the frustration and problems associated with this and believe that you are honestly experiencing problems... I do not have the authority to investigate or correct domain log in issues.



Check back periodically for status. Again my regrets.

CV
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2015 at 10:05
CV , please I would like one of my original accounts back . I feel like I am being led into saying things to defend my posts and then I am banned. Which is not fair . 

I am having difficulties not only with the Tigris account , but also the Kratos one .  I am not on here to pollute your threads . 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2015 at 10:03
And please stop assuming I am 'tigerrr' or 'r' or 'pckts' or any other tiger fan who you probably have encountered on Yuku or Carnivora etc . You were correct with the first names you said .... Yes Tigris and Kratos are me. But tigerrr and r are not me.  So if you are thinking and trying to state the fact that this is just one biased tiger fan who is not accepting facts and science then you are wrong my friend .  I am just a new guy who joined AE . 

You said .....

'I do not recall any 'Animal Planet' question.. but it is a generally unscientific sensationalist TV show..'

Wow so Animal Planet is a generally unscientific sensationalist show . Well in that documentary they got the rest of the animals in the top 10 list right , and I guess then they favoured the tiger and decided to put it in the list and leave out the lion? To please the audience huh. I should write to them and ask if their documentaries are unscientific and biased. Honestly I would want to know why the lion did not feature in that strength programme . 

You finished by saying .....
'Kindly cease & desist the 'personal' approach, & keep discussions on a more scholarly basis, ta..'

I like this and I kindly request you to give yourself the same advice.  Ta .
 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2015 at 09:40
CV , again I am having trouble logging in as Kratos . I was logged out and the database tells me that no username such as 'Kratos' exist when I attempt to get a new password. Avery strange and frustrating glitch. Forgive my reincarnation on this account . 

1 . J.A.W, you will not refrain me from the postings I have written on the tiger emerging victorious over a lion . My posts are more on a scholarly basis . You don't want to accept facts . Who spoke of the Jungle Book? I called the tiger the king of the jungle , and it has nothing to do with Rudyard Kipling . 

2. Thank you for giving me the name of the martial arts derived after the lion .  Does Lion Roar technique constitute one  of the 5 Kung Fu disciplines of fighting ? You will probably answer yes but the truth is it doesn't . Now I did accept there is a martial after the lion , though a secondary one. l I never said there wasn't one.

3. Then you have come to biting force again . Why repeat points made over and over ? As CV said it becomes repetitive and boring .  But since you said this : '& inspite of sharing significantly advantageous  primary carnivore jaw/dentition & power biting prowess over even larger body weight bears, lions do show harder biting characteristics than their tiger cousins.. ..'       
I would like to state fact , not personal opinion on this . 

From  http://listverse.com/2012/11/05/top-10-animal-bites-that-will-completely-destroy-you/



And the tiger ranks at 9 with a bite force of 1050 psi . 




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2015 at 02:32
Originally posted by Kratos

YOU are the partisan fan who can't seem to accept facts and science .  Lions don't live in the jungle , tigers do . So Tigers are the king of the JUNGLE .

 You got personal with me on the Sikh Akali topic by saying it was ironical that the word singh means lion and that was uncalled for . Well at least I have not called the lion derogatory names as you and another pollutant have . You keep calling the tiger sneaky and treacherous .  In my posts I have not once called a lion any derogatory word . 

I quote you ....'Humans have indeed sought to emulate the lion's 'majestic' characteristics, hence the 
terms such as 'lion hearted' & 'leonine'.. whereas bears, & the solitary cats are not perceived similarly..'


You could not answer my question then as to why the lion was not included in Animal Planet's Most Extreme Strength programme .....And then why is there no African martial art that is based on the lion's majestic characteristics? 

The tiger's power and striking swipes have surely been emulated by humans in kung fu and other martial art disciplines. 


Kratos/Tigris/r

Who mentioned "King of the Jungle"? Was it Rudyard Kipling? Not me, anyhow..

Although of course lions do live in certain forest areas too..

I do not recall any 'Animal Planet' question.. but it is a generally unscientific sensationalist TV show..

Kung Fu exponents also claim the "Lions roar" technique.. so what?

What is your knowledge base regarding native Afican 'martial arts' anyhow?
Perhaps you could dedicate a specfic thread to them?

Certainly, despite the inherent morpholgical similarities between lion & tiger, which are inevitable given their recent  evolutionary divergence..

& inspite of sharing significantly advantageous  primary carnivore jaw/dentition & power biting prowess over even larger body weight bears, lions do show harder biting characteristics than their tiger cousins.. ..along with the added combat strength/stamina - due to the measurably larger/capacious lion heart..
..a by-product of the greater testosterone produced by competitive social living situations,  for lions..



Addit:  Singh does mean lion, right? 
But how is stating that 'personal' to you? I just dont see it..

It is not me 'personally' who calls the solitary cats ( inc'the tiger, leopard, cougar & etc) 
'sneaky, cowardly/treacherous' that is - obviously - why I qualify those emotive descriptors with 'marks'..

..nor did I make a spurious claim about 'lions' who behave like hyenas.. a creature saddled with a worse
rep' - deserved, or otherwise - than any cat..


These quoted  terms are on the historical record, as human evaluations, but they do stand in contrast to
notable characteristics of lion 'boldness/magnaminity'.. can "YOU" cite a "lion acting as hyena" reference?

Kindly cease & desist the 'personal' approach, & keep discussions on a more scholarly basis, ta..





Edited by J.A.W. - 16-Oct-2015 at 02:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2015 at 23:39
YOU are the partisan fan who can't seem to accept facts and science .  Lions don't live in the jungle , tigers do . So Tigers are the king of the JUNGLE .

 You got personal with me on the Sikh Akali topic by saying it was ironical that the word singh means lion and that was uncalled for . Well at least I have not called the lion derogatory names as you and another pollutant have . You keep calling the tiger sneaky and treacherous .  In my posts I have not once called a lion any derogatory word . 

I quote you ....'Humans have indeed sought to emulate the lion's 'majestic' characteristics, hence the 
terms such as 'lion hearted' & 'leonine'.. whereas bears, & the solitary cats are not perceived similarly..'


You could not answer my question then as to why the lion was not included in Animal Planet's Most Extreme Strength programme .....And then why is there no African martial art that is based on the lion's majestic characteristics? 

The tiger's power and striking swipes have surely been emulated by humans in kung fu and other martial art disciplines. 









Edited by Kratos - 16-Oct-2015 at 00:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2015 at 23:32
'King of the Beasts' is a title accorded to the lion since ancient times..

Humans have indeed sought to emulate the lion's 'majestic' characteristics, hence the 
terms such as 'lion hearted' & 'leonine'.. whereas bears, & the solitary cats are not perceived similarly..

There is a poster who goes by Tigerrr who is oddly similar in his one-eyed & pigheaded/purblind
dismissal of these well-known historical attributes which pertain to the lion in multiple cultural contexts..

He even seeks to claim that lions are mere scavengers, but in fact it is bears who are well known as
'dumpster divers' & bears were unable to win a place in the sun on the wide plains of Africa, where
the 'King of the Beasts' has shown it is capable of relegating all other animals to subject status..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2015 at 22:03
Originally posted by J.A.W.

Originally posted by Tigris

And from my findings which have not been fabricated nor biased , the King of Beasts has been defeated by another member of the felidae ...namely the Tiger . And it has not been a scanty or exceptionable result.






There is a specific thread for that.

While the morphology of the biggest cats is very similar, & so much so that individual physical condition, personality & combat skill all can be the deciding factor in any given particular match-up, it is a surely a reasoned/evidentially validated call - to fairly state as a given fact..

Yes, on balance, given equivalence in general variables, the record supports an advantage is held by Leo.

The reputation of the lion as vertiable 'King of the Beasts' as prime land predator, does indeed - stack up in reality..


(Just read this post) so I just want to say this ........    You are right J.A.W about there being a specific thread for that - But I was merely responding to the unattested claim of the lion being the king of the beasts when confronted not only with the bear family but ANY of the felidae family , which obviously includes the tiger first before any of the other felidaes. That was very cleverly put in this thread , a very sneaky way to attack the strong and beautiful and ferocious tiger once again. Which is why I wrote it here . Why are you picking on it almost over a month later . Leave your personality out of this.

The tiger is an apex land predator with superb striking skills and is able to swim in water . And I disagree with your statement about the records held by Leo ....Some of these olden day fights staged were between a male lion and a female tiger . Prime in his findings has not been smart enough to distinguish a tigress and a male tiger.

And according to Martial's records of lion - tiger duels in ancient Rome,  the tiger was the winner. Advantage Panthera Tigris.

Right , it is not pleasant for CV to have to deal with this every day . He has done a fantastic job so far and I am going to respect what he said on the actual lion -tiger thread. Yes I want to contribute on other threads as I have been on the animal ones . 

For the record CV I am not going around on topics looking for someone and snipping. I like the saying Silence is Golden and I will try to implement it . 




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2015 at 18:54
Originally posted by Tigris

And from my findings which have not been fabricated nor biased , the King of Beasts has been defeated by another member of the felidae ...namely the Tiger . And it has not been a scanty or exceptionable result.






There is a specific thread for that.

While the morphology of the biggest cats is very similar, & so much so that individual physical condition, personality & combat skill all can be the deciding factor in any given particular match-up, it is a surely a reasoned/evidentially validated call - to fairly state as a given fact..

Yes, on balance, given equivalence in general variables, the record supports an advantage is held by Leo.

The reputation of the lion as vertiable 'King of the Beasts' as prime land predator, does indeed - stack up in reality..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2015 at 13:21
And from my findings which have not been fabricated nor biased , the King of Beasts has been defeated by another member of the felidae ...namely the Tiger . And it has not been a scanty or exceptionable result.






Edited by Tigris - 15-Sep-2015 at 13:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2015 at 11:32
Yeah, it seems that lion is indeed the king of beasts when confronted with any member of the felidae or the urside family.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2015 at 05:50
From what i read Lion win , right ?

Edited by SmartBrain - 31-Aug-2015 at 08:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2015 at 23:00
More good stuff there Prime, cheers.

This vid shows how quick cat strikes are, with a Puma ah, bitch-slapping the hound dogs
which treed it - when they get too close.. The cat hits left & right strikes & each hit
seems to cool the ardour of the particular canine doing the in-your-face hassle act..

No doubt - just about any wild creature would also dislike/avoid that sensation..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG0z3TaRS20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2015 at 18:01

Puma kills bear 4 times his size and a statement that says pumas usually always win:

 
 
 
On brown bears:
 
one killed by a single blow by a lion 162
 
and one from aesop:
 
This so angered the lion that he killed the bear with one blow.
 
 
heres the site where the fight is about the lion and polar bear:
 
The article of the mule kiling the grizzly bear
 
and the source which states the 4 lions fought the 3 polar bears:
 
Page
 
 
Well atleast the title doesnt say...lion kills a small bear.
 
 

Lion Should Defeat Grizzly

In an open fight between a full-grown grizzly and a full-grown lion, the victory would depend somewhat upon circumstances. As a general rule, the lion, In addition to strength and vigor, has a degree of cunning not found in a grizzly bear. Consequently, he would have the advantage over'the bear and, in most cases, would comeout the victor.
(bottom left)
 
Lets see a counter to what some real experts have to say about the diamond cutting sharpness of the bears claws they boust out to have: (how the bears claws are known as blunted)
 
 
 
 
books.google.com
Cla iws Black Bear on-retractable claws, fixed in an outstretched position, are a bear's more specialized tools used for ... of other bears; fore- claws four to five inches long; hindclaws shorter and more curved than foreclaws; claws more blunt
 ...
 
books.google.com
claws. American black bear Color black, grayish brown • short and round • Thick at base • Tapered to sharp point ... 4 to 5 inches long • Color dark, almost black • Claws more blunt than those of other bears • Longer and narrower than those
 
books.google.com
Such marking works not only as a visual signpost that other bears can readily see but also as a olfactory marker since the bear leaves behind a generous helping Bear claws are blunt and two- to three-tenths of an inch wide near their tips.
 
books.google.com
Brown bears are massively built and heavy bodied animals. They have a ... claws 217 Brown bear claws are longer and straighter than those of American black bears.221 The claws are blunt, while those of a black bear are sharp. Adults have
 ...
 
books.google.com
Black bears have sharp, curved claws, one and a half inches in length, while the more blunt grizzly bear claws, long and straight, are roughly the length of a human finger. Black bears are Roman-nosed. Grizzlies have a concave face and
a ...
 
books.google.com
Robert Whitehead, James G. Teason - ‎1966 - Snippet view
The bear's claws are fixed; that is, they cannot be pulled back into a sheath as can those of a cat. Because the claws are long, blunt, and non-retractable, and because the animals have great weight, it is difficult for most full-grown bears ...
 
books.google.com
They have stout limbs and heavy, blunt, nonretractable claws, and they are plantigrade. Reflecting their omnivorous ... Most of the evolutionary history of bears took place in the Old World, starting in the Miocene. The genus Ursus dates from
 
books.google.com
‎1968 - Snippet view
The older and larger bears have the longest front claws, and some of these may be twice as long as the claws of yearling cubs. ... Some grizzlies have very long claws that are strongly curved; others have claws that are rather short and blunt.
 
books.google.com
Natural history - ‎1840 - Read
The Bears usher in the section, and may be considered as forming the connecting link between this family and those of the herbivorous mammalia; their claws are strong, blunt, and well adapted for climbing or digging, but not for lacerating
 
books.google.com
William Ashworth - ‎1992 - Snippet view
THE KINDS OF BEARS 5 5 the Arctic tundra. As bears go, it is medium-size, ranging from 200 to 800 pounds or so in weight, with most individuals weighing between... bear claws are short and blunt, and are almost always dark-colored, ...
 
books.google.com
Its claws are short, much curved, very stocky at the base, and taper rapidly to a sharp point. ... digging implements than the long, slightly curved, blunt claws of the grizzly; but they are perfectly adapted to the uses to which their owner puts
them. ...
 
 
Herbert Lockyer - ‎1988 -
As Daniel watched he saw the lion lifted up from the earth and made to stand upon its feet as a ... After the lion, the bear is strongest, and known for its voracity.
 
 
... and his feet were asthe feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and ... GrecoMacedonian Empire and its succeeding four divisions after his death; and ... the strongest part, of the lion; the feet,the strongest part, of the bear; the body ...
 
a lioness saved a bears life when a male lion attacked a bear in rome:
 
The bear was powerful and his massive claws scarred the lion deeply, but the golden cat hung on until the big brown beast was dead
 
smaller bear defeats grizzly:


Edited by Prime - 04-Jun-2015 at 22:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2015 at 20:34
There seems to also be another illustration of the queenie fight where it shows a picture of a small lioness smashing away at a giant bear (middle top of the page)
 
 
 
Scratch that, heres the whole illustration of the lioness killing the husky bear:
 
 
 
another article of the little boars that killed 3 bears:
 
Boar hound whips polar bear
 
Bull whips bear: (bottom middle of the page)
 
 
This further proves that a lion would win a blow to blow contest with a bear using only the force of their paws, a fight with a big brown bear muzzled against two bulldogs, the bear wasnt able to do much and lost: (far right of the page)
 
 
Yet on the other hand, this fight with lions and dogs had the article state the lion swiped the dogs with such force of the paw the brains and guts flew onto the wall:
 
 
 
(pumas usually beat grizzly bears)
 
Jones discovered, while in the park, that the cougar is king of all the beasts of North America.  Even a grizzly dashed away in great haste when a cougar made his appearance. As to the fighting of cougars and grizzlies,  that was a mooted question, with the credit on the side of the former.

~The Last of the Plainsmen
 
 
When miners first come around, one miner was walking around up there. He hears growling.
Over the hill he sees a brown bear with its face torn up, its eyes gouged out.
The miner took pity on it so he shot it.
http://www.subsistence.adfg.state.ak.us/TechPap/tp248.pdf
 
 
Heres hernan boger again stating the leopard killed a polar bear and tiger, and also a tiger that killed a brown bear:
 
Black bear dies in fight with puma (a good illustration of a puma an bear), his hide all over his body was shredded to ribbons:
 
Bull kills two bear in the same fight:
 
 
Bull tosses bear him high in the air, then gores him again and again  then a second bear is brought in, the same bull gores him again and again and again until he is dead, then lifts the bears dead body and runs around the ring dragging the dead bear round and around:
 
 
  • books.google.com
    Osmond Philip Breland - ‎1948 - Snippet view - More editions
    According to reports, it was the fashion to stage bear and bull fights in California
    before that state was admitted to the ... J. Frank Dobie in his well known book, The Longhorns, tells of an instance in which a large grizzly was gored to death by a bull
     ...
  •  
     
    Bull kills bear:
     
    Bull kills grizzly bear:
     
    Bull whips grizzly bear:
     
     
    But the bear is kind - effusively kind, even to its enemies. In the manner of its attack it does not fell them to the ground with one blow of its paw like the lion, nor seize them with its teeth like the dog. It hugs them. it embraces them with its powerful forelimbs with a great show of affection, and continues the squeeze so long that the poor wretched victims are suffocated.
     
     
    Vulnerability of the bears throat:
     
  • books.google.com
    ‎1970 - Snippet view - More editions
    visited by a male polar bear in the last days of May 1947, and it killed two of the cubs, which were tied up outside the hut, and wounded a third. ... The throat of the bear was bitten through to the spine and the seal had all its ribs broken
    https://www.google.com/search?q=+polar+The+throat+of+the+bear+was+bitten+through+to+the+spine+and+the+seal+had+all+its+ribs&tbm=bks&tbo=1&oq=+polar+The+throat+of+the+bear+was+bitten+through+to+the+spine+and+the+seal+had+all+its+ribs&gs_l=heirloom-serp.3..30i10.11981.12967.0.13231.7.7.0.0.0.1.203.554.0j2j1.3.0.msedr...0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..5.2.385.iWdmCNodHb8
  •  
     
    An artifact shows a lion biting the throat of a bear:
  • books.google.com
    ‎1982 - Snippet view - More editions
    In the second scene of the fight between the bear and the lion the designer used the plasticity of high relief, emphasizing the lion's head, his mane and body. ... The lion caught with his mouth the bear's throat, pushing him down with his paws.
  •  
    Panthera the bull killing Ramadan the grizzly bear:
     
    Page
     
     
     
    And heres the entire fight with ramadan vs parnell, exposing the lies of the 19th century books of the california miners stating the bear killed the lion like a cat would a rat, as the article states the best abstract comes from the very person who took the photos Mr. Zercombe:
     
    bears are known to be killed by wolves and pumas:
     
     
    Big grizzly dies fighting female puma:
     
     
    'This disinclination of the puma to attack man, is often attributed to cowardice, though , an ; animal should hardly be termed cowardly which will risk combat with the grizzly bear, as the puma is known to do. v So cowardly is the mountain lion,' said J. B. Tread well, of California, who - has often killed them, that ' more - than once
     
     
    Leopard kills bear:
     
  • books.google.com
    The same scene was repeated, but this time the lion had succeeded in tearing open the bear's hack and drawing his vitals through the gap. The bear fell dead, and the lion hauled off once more to lick his wounds. Having taken breath, he 
  •  
    About the romans:
     
    the lion is king of beasts and supreme over all other beasts. The bear, while it certainly is a predator to be feared, did not match the speed nor the strength of the Lion ~ Ronald C. Ware -
     
    About the roman records:
     
    like a bear, a beast second only to the lion in its strength and fierceness, ~Tokunboh Adeyemo - ‎2010 M.Th. from Talbot School of Theology/Biola University, California, U.S.A
     
    About the romans:
     
    The bear is the strongest beast after the lion and is distinguished for its voracity, but it has none of the agility
    ~Clarence Larkin - ‎2010
     
    books.google.com
    Ann Gilliam, Sierra Club - ‎1979 - Snippet view - More editions
    1971 By whatever name it might be called, mountain lion, cougar, puma, this member of the cat family plays an ... The apotheosis of American carnivores, the cougar's strength and agility are legendary. ... of wild felids in the Western Hemisphere, he has proven more than the equal of even the grizzly bear in staged combat.
     
  • books.google.com
    ‎1990 - Snippet view - More editions
    Once Americans recognized that this animal was not the lion of myth, a certain disappointment set in. ... The accusation gains some credence from the accuracy of Lawson's other observations about the panther: that it climbs trees with "the greatest agility imaginable," covers its kill with ... terror of all other creatures
    except, perhaps, the grizzly bear (and a few stories had panthers vanquishing even them).


  • Edited by Prime - 15-May-2015 at 23:10
    Be honset to thy self!
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    Knight
    Knight


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