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poirot
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Topic: Kingdom of Heaven Critique Posted: 22-May-2005 at 01:24 |
Has anyone seen the new film "Kingdom of Heaven"?
I, for one, have enjoyed it to a great extent. Of course, there are many historical inaccuracies, but at least the film was in the right direction.
Note: If you have not seen the movie, please read no further, because spoilers are ahead.
Historical inaccuracies:
1. Balian was constructed in the film to be the modern hero. In history, he was much older, and was never a blacksmith. He married Maria Comenus, the first wife of the previous king of Jerusalem and a Byzantine princess. Balian did, however, play a crucial role in the negotiations that led to the surrendering of Jerusalem. But contrary to the movie, Balian did participate in the Third Crusade, and helped King Richard I negotiate a peace treaty with Saladin in 1192.
2. Sibylla remained loyal to Guy de Lusignan and followed him after the fall of Jerusalem. She negotiated with Guy's opposition, gaining support on the condition that she anull her marriage to Guy but maintain the right to choose her own husband. At he coronation, she chose her new husband - none other than Guy de Lusignan. In case any one is interested, Sibylla died of a plague in camp soon after the fall of Jerusalem, along with her daugher.
3. The movie stripped Raymond of Tripoli of his proper role in the conflicts that led to Jerusalem's demise. Raymond was the chief opposition to Guy de Lusignan and Balian his supporter. The Kingdom of Jerusalem divided itself into two factions: one sided with Raymond and Balian with the help of the Knights Hospitalliers, another sided with Guy, Reynald, and Sibylla with the aid of the Knights Templar.
4. Saladin did not raise an army of 200,000 men. He had a total of around 20,000 men. The Kingdom of Jerusalem amounted to about 10,000 men. At the time, the city of Paris only had around 50,000 residents.
5. Balian and the rest probably did not speak English. Just joking, but what can we expect from Hollywood?
Nevertheless, the movie does contain some accuracies that merit a thumbs up:
1. The Horns of Hattin is depicted as it actually occurred. Although the director decided not to show the actual battle, the circumstances surrounding the battle (e.g. the lack of water) were very accurate.
2. King Baldwin IV was, indeed a leper. Had he not been afflicted with leporacy, he would have become a very effective ruler.
3. The death of Reynald was accurately played out. After the Battle of the Horns of Hattin, Saladin offered the captive Guy a chalice of ice water. Guy extended the chalice to Reynald. Saladin furiously told took the cup away from Reynald and executed Reynald for his atrocious attacks on Muslim caravans.
4. Saladin was rightfully depicted as a rightous, honourable, and wise ruler. Both Christian and Muslim accounts portrayed Saladin as a just and admirable sovereign. Contrary to the massacre of non-Christian residents in Jerusalem by Christian crusaders in 1100, Saladin did not harm non-Muslim residents in Jerusalem, and allowed safe pilgrimage of Christians into Jerusalem after 1192.
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vulkan02
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Posted: 22-May-2005 at 10:09 |
i have a thread about this in Intellectual Discussion forum if you scroll down a little bit.
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Frederick Roger
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Posted: 23-May-2005 at 09:30 |
Agree with most that was said. However:
Originally posted by poirot
Has anyone seen the new film "Kingdom of Heaven"?
I, for one, have enjoyed it to a great extent. Of course, there are many historical inaccuracies, but at least the film was in the right direction.
Note: If you have not seen the movie, please read no further, because spoilers are ahead.
Historical inaccuracies:
1. Balian was constructed in the film to be the modern hero. In history, he was much older, and was never a blacksmith. He married Maria Comenus, the first wife of the previous king of Jerusalem and a Byzantine princess. Balian did, however, play a crucial role in the negotiations that led to the surrendering of Jerusalem. But contrary to the movie, Balian did participate in the Third Crusade, and helped King Richard I negotiate a peace treaty with Saladin in 1192.
In the movie, Balian does join King Richard, you can see him joining him at the very end of the flick.
3. The movie stripped Raymond of Tripoli of his proper role in the conflicts that led to Jerusalem's demise. Raymond was the chief opposition to Guy de Lusignan and Balian his supporter. The Kingdom of Jerusalem divided itself into two factions: one sided with Raymond and Balian with the help of the Knights Hospitalliers, another sided with Guy, Reynald, and Sibylla with the aid of the Knights Templar.
The man you saw as Tiberias was indeed Raymond of Tripoli.
5. Balian and the rest probably did not speak English. Just joking, but what can we expect from Hollywood?
If Mel Gibson did it, so could Sir Ridley Scott.
Nevertheless, the movie does contain some accuracies that merit a thumbs up:
2. King Baldwin IV was, indeed a leper. Had he not been afflicted with leporacy, he would have become a very effective ruler.
The man couldn't even move at the time the movie is supposed to be.
4. Saladin was rightfully depicted as a rightous, honourable, and wise ruler. Both Christian and Muslim accounts portrayed Saladin as a just and admirable sovereign. Contrary to the massacre of non-Christian residents in Jerusalem by Christian crusaders in 1100, Saladin did not harm non-Muslim residents in Jerusalem, and allowed safe pilgrimage of Christians into Jerusalem after 1192.
He did that because Balian, unlike shown in the film, threatened to slaughter every muslin in Jerusalem and burn the Mosque down. |
Edited by Frederick Roger
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Komnenos
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Posted: 23-May-2005 at 13:16 |
For me the problem is not so much if the film is accurate in every possible detail, but if it could manage to conjure and evoke an atmosphere of the time of the crusades, convincingly and believable.
And that it didn't, it was just another soul-less but pretty Hollywood "Sword and Sandal" spectacle, with astonishingly embarassing dialogues but great battle scenes, that tried to cash in on the success of LotR.
As somebody else put it: "It was like LotR Part 4, "Legolas defends Jerusalem"!
Edited by Komnenos
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Dawn
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Posted: 25-May-2005 at 02:25 |
Just saw it. I thought it to be ok better than many. But to me, at least, it was too much a copy of Gladiator. The story was different, the time was different but it looked and felt like a rehash of Gladiator. If that makes any scense.
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Frederick Roger
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Posted: 25-May-2005 at 05:15 |
It was too similar to Gladiator, in the way it portrayed yet another bitter man taking comfort from killing his enemies, even if he didn't want to. There is also all that clich court intrigue etc... However, I was glad that, generally, a certain thing called History was followed, even if it did alter minor details.
BTW, Dawn, have you survived "Foucault's Pendulum" or what?
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Dawn
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Posted: 25-May-2005 at 09:51 |
got about 1/3 of the way through and gave up again.Still sitting beside the bed. Might pick it up again but boy is it a hard read for me.
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 25-May-2005 at 10:10 |
Foucaults pendulum, that one took me ages to get through, especially since I read it in English. I enjoyed it in the beginning, but the last half I read purely out of stubborness.
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poirot
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Posted: 25-May-2005 at 14:17 |
Hey, all this talk about Foucault's Pendulum got me going to the library and borrowing a copy of the book.
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Frederick Roger
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Posted: 25-May-2005 at 17:47 |
Gee, the English translation must be real bad to cause so many trouble... The book is complex, but really not that hard...
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 25-May-2005 at 18:35 |
Originally posted by Frederick Roger
Gee, the English translation must be real bad to cause so many trouble... The book is complex, but really not that hard... |
No, it was good, but getting a fraction of all the historical and philosophical references when you're in the engineering section isn't all that easy.
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Dawn
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Posted: 25-May-2005 at 20:28 |
it just doen't flow for me. I can't seem to get into it.
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Zagros
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Posted: 26-May-2005 at 19:39 |
If you want historical accuracy, read credible history books.
Orlando bloom spoiled it for me. I really enjoyed the part where Saladin sliced that fat ginger guy's throat.
The film was ok but nothing special.
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poirot
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Posted: 27-May-2005 at 06:04 |
I thought it was much better and a little more accurate than Gladiator.
Edited by poirot
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Perseas
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Posted: 28-May-2005 at 11:06 |
One inaccuracy i spotted were that after King Baldwin IV died, the infact Baldwin V, who btw was son of Sybilla, succeeded him as king of Jerusalem and not Guy of Lusignan.
I think though, Baldwin V died almost the next year and his mother Sybilla was crowned queen as the film showed.
Another one was that Balian's father name wasnt Godfred but Barisan of Ibelin.
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A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
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Byzantine Emperor
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Posted: 28-May-2005 at 17:59 |
Originally posted by poirot
Historical inaccuracies:
1. Balian was constructed in the film to be the modern hero. In history, he was much older, and was never a blacksmith. He married Maria Comenus, the first wife of the previous king of Jerusalem and a Byzantine princess. Balian did, however, play a crucial role in the negotiations that led to the surrendering of Jerusalem. But contrary to the movie, Balian did participate in the Third Crusade, and helped King Richard I negotiate a peace treaty with Saladin in 1192.
2. Sibylla remained loyal to Guy de Lusignan and followed him after the fall of Jerusalem. She negotiated with Guy's opposition, gaining support on the condition that she anull her marriage to Guy but maintain the right to choose her own husband. At he coronation, she chose her new husband - none other than Guy de Lusignan. In case any one is interested, Sibylla died of a plague in camp soon after the fall of Jerusalem, along with her daugher.
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I agree with these observations. Balian was totally reconstructed for the role in the movie from who the actual historical character was. However, the leader of the Crusader garrison in Jerusalem was named Balian and did threaten to destroy the city and kill all the Muslims if Saladin did not offer terms, like was portrayed at the end of the film.
Sybilla was very much in love with Guy of Lusignan, who was not a Templar but a swashbuckling adventurer who had been banished from France. She chose to marry him and wanted to rule Jerusalem and gain power as much as Guy did. That she returned to France with the fictional Balian and became a peasant wife is ludicrous!
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Posted: 17-Jun-2005 at 11:27 |
more accuracy can be found in an old egyptian movies i think around the early 80s or maybe late 70s. the movie is called (al nasser salah al deen). for sure the production wasn't as good as this one but the story is much better.
what i didn't like about this movie is that maybe the director showed salah al deen as an insane killer who will never show mercy and never care about anything when bilian decided to protect the old men and women and children however, everybody knows who was salah al deen and how fair was he.
in the other hand, bilian as they showed in the movie he was a young blacksmith! who suddenly turned to be a great army leader and very good in using swords and everything. it is unlogical and his story was different as mentioned before.
also the director showed that christinas were (umm i dunno how to say this but it was kinda stupid and unfair) he showed that christians were killing non christians just for this reason as we saw guy and his friends and also the guy who was saying killing an infdale is not a murder or something like that. and later when bilian was giving speech inside the city the priest was saying this is blasphmy and everybody was laughing at him. this wasn't good about the movie. but also for salah al deen he showed that he was silly like when bilian asked him what is worth it? salah said nothing and then said everything. i got it that way: salah al deen doesn't beleive in this city but it was his lust to take over more places and stuff like that then the thumbs up hahahaha. ironic.
thanx
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 17-Jun-2005 at 12:23 |
Originally posted by 1great empire
what i didn't like about this movie is that maybe the director showed salah al deen as an insane killer who will never show mercy and never care about anything when bilian decided to protect the old men and women and children however, everybody knows who was salah al deen and how fair was he. |
I thought they showed Saladin as a good guy quite accurately, and the actor was great.
In real life Saladin did slaughter prisoners at a few occasions (for example after Hattin and during the Montsigard campaign) so it's not incorrect.
Edited by Styrbiorn
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Posted: 19-Jun-2005 at 02:24 |
Originally posted by Styrbiorn
Originally posted by 1great empire
what i didn't like about this movie is that maybe the director showed salah al deen as an insane killer who will never show mercy and never care about anything when bilian decided to protect the old men and women and children however, everybody knows who was salah al deen and how fair was he. | I thought they showed Saladin as a good guy quite accurately, and the actor was great. In real life Saladin did slaughter prisoners at a few occasions (for example after Hattin and during the Montsigard campaign) so it's not incorrect. |
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 19-Jun-2005 at 05:56 |
Originally posted by 1great empire
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Is it funny that he slaughtered prisoners, or that I found the actor great?
Edited by Styrbiorn
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