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the White House

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Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: the White House
    Posted: 25-Dec-2014 at 10:29
This post is about the "White House" of Saint Ninnian/Ninian which was supposedly in Galloway.

Recently on Historum forum (where i am 'Rob Banks') some people disputed my theory that the  White House of Ninnian  may not be Whithorn in Galloway/Wigtownshire but may rather be Dover [Guinnion]. This is a quick collated list of the main past and present evidences that i had/have so-far thought-of in my light research. I acknowledge that we may perhaps be wrong about Dover and they may perhaps be right about Whithorn, but from my list i still think that the evidence is that we could possibly be right (about Dover).

Note on Hwiterne / Dover match criticism:

- some pros for the orthodox Whithorn (Galloway) location and cons for our Dover/Guinnion location  include: Bede mentions Bernicia and Angles; Mac Erca connected with Whithorn.

However we have alot of possible pros for our site:

- "Bede's information is minimal and he does not claim it as fact, asserting only that he is passing on "traditional" information." "Bede's account serves to support the legitimacy of the new Northumbrian bishopric."
"... all provide seemingly innocuous personal details about his life. However, there is no unchallenged historical evidence to support any of their stories, and all sources had political and religious agendas...."
Bede is disputed by some scholars on other points (like Pictish matrilineal).

- sources say the evidence at Whithorn (Wigtownshire/Galloway) for Ninnian being there then is scanty.
Do "many more saints rest at" Whithorn?
Ninnian was buried at Hwiterne (in stone sarcophagus near altar of church). [Compare the Dover Painted House sarcophagus/skeleton? (though may be too late?)] Have they found him/that there in their "block buster" excavations (report)?

- Even their Ninian's "4th century" date is uncertain/disputed. Allthough the ASC says Ninnian was "long before" Columba, the 560/565 ASC/Ethelwerd date and/or the St Martin of Galicia's death date of 580 is/are close to our Guinnion &/or Badon dates of 538 &/or 554 (and the date of Santa Maria de Bretona).

- Hwiterne/hwitaern/Wytterna/Futarna/Whithorn / (ad) Candida(m) Casa(m) "shining/(glittering) white + house/hut" matches Dover to a tee (white fort, white cliffs/Albion, white downs) & Guinnion/"white"/*Alborum. ["White house" would imply a good reason for the name. Maybe i am influenced by the one in US though? If Hwiterne is the Whithorn at Galloway then way was it called white house? Though, the pro-Whithorn crowd claim it was possibly from the whitewash/painted.] (Was Whithorn also called candida casa not just Hwiterne (even though they mean the same)?)
Compare drumalbin/dorsum Albionis(Grampians)?
The name Hwiterne is also similar to Bitterne (Clausentum/Southampton) [&/or Fretherne]? (Note Badon/Portchester &/or Clausentum, and Guinnion/Dover are connected.)

- the ("small") stone (or "wooden") church &/or "(white) house" built "after the Roman manner" may fit either St Martin Le Grand at Dover, the lighthouse/Bedenstone, &/or Pictish Palace?.

- the church situated on the shore could fit Dover (though the cliffs maybe may not match) .

- St Martin's church/see at Hwiterne matches St Martin le Grand at Dover &/or St Martin at Canterbury. (Is there one at Whithorn/"Taigh Mhartainn"?)

-St Martin was in France alot further from Galloway than Dover.

- Ninnian also has connections with Galicia which is alot further from Galloway than Kent. [Martin of Galicia. Ninnian's mother Spanish princess.] Galicia has other connections with Dover/Guinnion (Santa Maria de Bretona).

- "Southern (Picts)" may better match south Britain than just south Scotland?
"southern regions", "on this side" (compare southumbrians and northumbrians)?
Bede says the northern/southern division was by separated by jagged ranges of mountains "Drumalbin/dorsum Albionis (Grampians/Mounth)". Albion/Alban clearly connects with Dover.
Southern in Roman or Briton or Saxon (Hwiterne is in ASC/Ethelwerd) is south of the Wall(s)? (Contrast their "north of Hadrian's Wall".)
 South of the (Old) North?
Northern Picts/Northern Scots at Iona.

- there is evidence from other sources that "(Southern) Picts" may not be the common ones of Scotland but have matches in the south. People can dismiss these sources as "literary" or "late" but they have to dis/prove the actual details.
"Kay of Pictland", yet Kay seems rather connected with Caius/Caesar & Roman southeast (in Pa Gur etc).
"Arthur dux/leader of the Picts", yet Arthur seems rather southeast quarter. (Even the Roman dux was south of the wall?)
"Pictish Palace" yet that palace seems rather in south-east, maybe at Dover (perhaps St Martin le Grand, or Painted House?)
Picts killed Constantine at Vortigerns bidding.
Picards in France.
Weald was called sylva Caledonia in Roman source (Caesar don't go much further than maybe London).
Picts just means painted/dyed/tattooed like Crutihne/Pretanikoi/Britons also means.
"Loch Lumonoy/Lomond was in country of Picts", yet the Wonders say it was in Britain (and not in Scotland wonders) and it seems to rather match Lympne/Romney of Kent/E Sussex not loch Lomond of Scotland.
The "Southern Picts" of Hwiterne "white house" (St Martin) seemingly may be Dover (St Martin) [Guinnion] and not Galloway.
 "O'Connor denies that Ninnian converted the picts on these grounds [Galloway was called Valentia by Romans and Britons]"?
"mordred son of lot k of picts" Lot may be connected with London or Lu(n)d... (Othona).
battle Picts vs Romans....
The sources (I forget which (Nennius or Gildas?)) say the northern Picts and Scots (and Germans) attacked the eastern/southern parts of Britain?
"in a panegyric delivered in 297, appears the earliest extant mention of the Picts (Picti). The anonymous author makes a poetic reference to Julius Caesar having had a relatively easy task invading Britain, since his opponents were:
“... primitive and used only to foes as yet half-naked, like the Picts and the Irish [Hiberni] ...” [Picts/Pictish district of Horestia? (Arestal? Horsa/Hengist?)]
Lothus k of Picts vs Arthur k of Britons?
These all seem connected rather with south/east Britain not the North/Scotland.


 - Nynias/Ninnian's/Ringan's/Trynnian's name might even possibly connect with Nennius/[Nynniaw], or Viviane/Vivien (Arthurian ie Britain/Lloegria), St Finnian (who may link with Guinnion in name or nature [another whole long article i am not writing!])?
"There is as yet no unchallenged connection of the historical record to the person who was Bede's Ninian." "Nothing is known about his [Ninnian's] teachings, and there is no unchallenged authority for information about his life. A link between the Ninian of tradition and a person who actually appears in the historical record is not yet confirmed...."
[Maybe compare St Andrew and King Arthur may also be connected.]

- Ninian was a Briton / "of the nation of the Britons". The church was "unusual among the Britons".
"but if Bede's narrative is true, the Britons must have been driven from this region, when the wall was built at least 20 years before the coming of Ninnian."
[Perhaps also compare Iona "appertains to the sovereignty of Britain"?]

- "St Martin" & or King Tuduvallus &/or Ninian's christian king father might be Arthur? (Leon Mintz's paper tentatively showed connections between Ares/Mars and St Martin and Arthur/Merlin.)

- the Book of Hours of the Virgin & St Ninnian recalls Mary of Guinnion (of Arthur of Nennius).

- the miracles/miracula of Ninnian sound like the Wonders/Miracles/Mirabilibus of Britain of "Nennius"? (Yeah the academics will jump on the different words miracula and mirabilibus to make out i am just a dumb/wrong amateur lay person and they are smart/right, as they as they always offensively do. I may be wrong on this, but they are wrong how they offend non-academics.)
[St Ninnian's Cave (Glassteron) may recall the wind cave of the Wonders" or Iltud's cave?]


- Ninnian gone to"Rome" might be Rutupi/city of the legion called "2nd Rome"?

- Aelred's "source written in a "barbarous language"" sounds similar to Arthurian mentions of similar sources (Geoff of Monmouth, etc).

- his/the bell Clog-rinny ("from heaven") recalls one in Saints Lives that mention Arthur.

- the harper builder of his church recalls David &/or Merlin.

- (smith Terna &) son Wyn recalls Guinnion.

- the 'Whithorn Crozier' [&/or Monreith Cross? &/or Holyrood?] is possibly reminiscent of the Cross Arthur bore at Guinnion (which has (half) a dozen matches with Dover).

[Refs: St Ailred 'Vita St Ninian' 1160, Book of Hours, anonymous 'Miracula Nyniae Episcopi' 9th Cent, Bede EH bk 3 chapt 4 c731, Usher 'Brittanicarum E. A.'/'Life of Ninnian' (1639), Skene, Capgrave, John of Tinmouth c1366, John Colgan, O'Connor, ASC/Ethelwerd 560s entry, Wiki, Historum posters, [Anna Ritchie], Irish 'Life of Ninian', B Walker, Hill's Whithorn dig.]
 

If we are possibly right then there were 2 "White House" places (and/or maybe even 2 Ninians?), and one was named after (or confounded with) the other. Or another possibility is that Hwiterne is their Whithorn but ("Rome" &/or) "St Martin" that Ninnian visited were in Kent (at (Rutupi/Legions [or London/"Troy"]) and Dover/Guinnion)?



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 26-Dec-2014 at 00:45
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2014 at 12:08
much to digest Ar but always interesting.

as for the other site? why waste good air with feigned fraudulent intellectual elitists. they were when I was there; they remain so, with the exception of a few, the same now.

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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2014 at 19:41
Although there might be scanty sources for 'White House' being Whithorn, there seems to be no sources at all for it being Dover. What evidence you present seems to be too vague and based on correlation rather than any sound ground. 'Just because Dover is nearer to France' seems to be your biggest argument.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2014 at 08:30
I am offended at you wrongly claiming that my biggest argument is supposedly closer to France/Dover, and that "vague ... rather than sound ground". I showed there are (maybe) sources like the ASC they just don't say "Dover". I don't see that "correlation" is a problem (if true). What is this, baiting or "carry over the attack from Historum"?. I think i won't post here anymore, bye. (I can take discussing evidences but not vague dismissings/attacks.)

ps i found something else relating to your Scilly but didn't pass it on at the time and now can't remember/find it. But maybe just as well if Historum-like tension!


Edited by Arthur-Robin - 28-Dec-2014 at 08:31
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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2014 at 17:15
Hey Arthur-Robin, if you cannot discus, don't open a thread.

You posit a long list of points, but the couple I noted stood out as having been repeated. Perhaps if you ditched the least supportive points, and concentrated on just a few stronger points your argument might come over better. What's the point of presenting your theory if you're just going to flounce off in petulance (and then claim to have knowledge about something else I posted, but will now refuse to impart it due to sulking!!)

This has nothing to do with Historum, but all to do with your attitude. Learn from the responses you receive, and adapt your approach accordingly. Don't just wave your arms in the arm and walk off crying 'victim'. If you can't stand up for your own theory no one else is going to bother to do so.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2014 at 06:08
Sorry for whatever fault/s i have. It is not just my attitude though. People always seem to just try to vaguley attack or make look "wrong" by words. I can defend/discuss details/evidences, i can't deal with vague words/assertions. (Also why can't there be a place for people being able to just post ideas/opinions without having to too excessively argue.) Plus no one ever agrees/positive, always everyone disagrees/negaitve. I'm tired of people accusing me of repetition (which i don't do that much, &/or is not fair as it is not easy to explain/organise so many interconnected points). I like to keep all my ideas/possibilities not ditch ones supposeldy weaker/least, if academia dismiss because of that then too bad for them/me.
I can't remember/find the Scilly anyway.
We all have our own way of writing/organising/etc, i can't just adapt to the orthodox academics set one way fits all. (They have it stacked so if we don't do it their way then to bad for us and all the better for them.) One Egyptologist messed me up by trying to get me to organise it their way not mine.

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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2014 at 11:41
Both of you need to back off just a little.  My only additional comment is- "Whatever happens at Historum, should stay there". 
Many of us here have been banned over there.  It seems a few who still maintain active memberships in both sites forget which site they are on.  Carry over arguments always seem to cause trouble here.

So lets try to separate what happens there from the discussions here.

One more thought, Art-Robin joined here about the same time I did.  I therefore consider him one of the "originals".  His posting style is a little strange, and sometimes difficult, but it's been my experience that his posts are usually worth the effort to read.



"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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