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Greece and Turkey genetic map( today)

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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Greece and Turkey genetic map( today)
    Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 17:08
Originally posted by Maju

no group of people can be converded in only 400-500 years


History has good examples of the opposite:
  • Iberians were speaking Iberian in 100 BCE and they were speaking Latin in 400 CE and considered themselves totally Romans, the same can be said of Gauls and others.
  • Most of Hispano-America has been transformed into Spanish nations, still most of their blood is native. Spanish presence was only of three centuries.

Also, Turk presence in Anatolia has much more than 500 years. If I don't recall badly, when the crusaders arrived in 12th century there were already Turks in large parts of Anatolia. Add to that the "ethnic exchange" done in the 1920s with Greece and... voil!

Even look at christianity. In a matter of 500 years most of the Roman Empire,(even though it was dieing), had converted into christiantiy while 500 years before christians were persecuted!

http://theforgotten.org/intro.html
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2005 at 18:52
I was thinking in broader cultural/linguistic terms... religious conversion is just a part of it. 

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  Quote arfunda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2005 at 06:38

Here's an article of a research study on Anotolian genes:

Mol Biol Evol. 1996 Oct;13(8):1067-77.

Geographic variation in human mitochondrial DNA control region sequence: the population history of Turkey and its relationship to the European populations.

Comas D, Calafell F, Mateu E, Perez-Lezaun A, Bertranpetit J.

Laboratori d' Antropologia, Facultat de Biologia, Universitat de Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain.

The hypervariable segment I of the control region of the mtDNA (positions 16024-16383) was amplified from hair roots by PCR and sequenced in 45 unrelated individuals from Anatolia (Asian Turkey). Forty different sequences were found, defined by 56 variable positions, of which only one involves a transversion. The neighbor-joining tree of Kimura's distance matrix for all sequences shows four main clusters. Cluster D was found to be the most statistically robust of the four, and all the sequences in it shared a mutation that is present only in European and West Asian populations. The variability in cluster D could have originated between 37,000 and 107,000 years ago. No branch is unexpectedly long, denoting the absence of sequences that diverged much before the others. The pairwise difference distribution is bell-shaped, in accordance with a population expansion occurring roughly 35,000 to 100,000 years ago. When compared to other Caucasoid populations through the pairwise difference distribution, there is a pattern from the Middle East (older expansion) to the various European populations, with Turkey in an intermediate position; when Turkish sequences are compared through a neighbor-joining tree on a genetic distance matrix of populations, this position is again evidenced. Although there is a very low level of genetic divergence among Caucasoid populations as shown by mtDNA control region sequences, a geographic pattern of genetic variation emerges, denoting a stepping-stone position of Turkey between the Middle East and Europe, which is in agreement with the hypothesis of a replacement of Neanderthals by modern humans, which could be related to the Upper Paleolithic cultural expansion.

 

The article has 11 pages. It consists of medical/biological terms. Since I am a medical doctor, it isn' boring for me to read all. If you want to read all, I send you as attachment. You can read the results from the file. I give you the Discussion  part of the article:

Mol Biol Evol. 1996 Oct;13(8):1067-77.

Geographic variation in human mitochondrial DNA control region sequence: the population history of Turkey and its relationship to the European populations.

Comas D, Calafell F, Mateu E, Perez-Lezaun A, Bertranpetit J.

Discussion

"Our analyses consistently show that Anatolian mtDNA sequences present features that are intermediate between those found in Europe and in the Middle East. This is especially patent in (1) in the cline of the fre­quency of the substitutions defining cluster D; (2) in the average and distribution of nucleotide pairwise differ­ences (fig. 6) and, hence, in an intermediate genetic di­versity; and (3) in the position of Turkey in the popu­lation tree (fig. 7). Several scenarios could have pro­duced an intermediate genetic position. However, they have different, specific predictions on the outcome of the analyses performed. This eventually will allow us to reject, solely on the basis of genetic evidence, all but one of the population history scenarios proposed:

1.        The Middle East was colonized from Europe through
Turkey.
This scenario would predict a loss of genetic
diversity toward the East. The present results show
exactly the opposite pattern, as demonstrated, for ex­
ample, by mean nucleotide pairwise differences (fig.
6 and table 3).chemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />>>

2.   Isolation by distance acting on populations in de­
mographic equilibrium.
As Rogers and Harpending
(1992) showed, this would lead to irregular, multi-
modal pairwise difference distributions, again in con­
tradiction with our findings (figs. 5 and 6).>>

3.   The present Turkish population is the result of recent
admixture between European and Middle Eastern
populations.
Although this scenario would result in
pairwise
difference distributions and population dis­
tances compatible with those actually found, a recent
admixture would not account either for the large
number of lineages found exclusively in Turks (31
out of 40), even when compared to a large database
of European and Middle Eastern sequences, or for
the high mean nucleotide pairwise differences be­
tween Turks and both European and Middle Eastern
populations. Moreover, the sequences shared by
Turks and Middle Easterners (TUK7, TUK33, and
TUK38) are also found in Europe, as far west as
Britain and the Basque Country. Therefore, the pat­
tern of sequence sharing agrees with a common, an­
cient origin for European and west Asian populations
rather than with Turks being basically the product of
recent admixture.>>

4.  Turkey was in the pathway of the colonization of Eu­
rope from the Middle East through population ex­
pansions. 
This would explain the patterns of se­
quence sharing; the clinal frequency of the Caucasoid
substitutions found at the base of cluster D; the mean
pairwise
nucleotide differences and their distribution;
and population distances and trees. Expansion dates
can be estimated from the whole tree from 42,000 to
122,000 years ago, which would be an upper estimate
for the age of the European and west Asian variation.
Cluster D, the most robust in the analysis, is entirely
Caucasoid, and its divergence time gives an estimate
of the minimum divergence time for the Turkish and
European populations, from 37,000 to 107,000 years
ago. Similar age brackets are found through the pair-
wise difference distribution. These estimates agree
with the archaeological dates for the spread of ana­
tomically modem humans in Europe. Although the
debate on the origin and spread of the Upper Pale­
olithic in Europe and its relationship to the expansion
of modem humans remains open, there is widespread


1076 Comas et al.

agreement that nonmodern people (Neanderthals in Europe and west Asia) differed profoundly in their behavior from their modem successors (Klein 1994). In Europe, the Upper Paleolithic artifactual evidence for modem behavior seems to have appeared abruptly about 40,000 years ago, and to the extent that human remains occur in Upper Paleolithic archaeological sites, they come almost exclusively from typically modem humans (Klein 1994). Moreover, the Middle to Upper Paleolithic transition could have produced a population replacement (Stringer 1989; Mellars 1993). The mtDNA patterns seen in this Turkish sam­ple are compatible with an expansion at 40,000 years ago, and do not show traces of the persistence of older populations  (e.g.,  Neanderthals).

The differential effect that two separate expansions, the Upper Paleolithic and the Neolithic, may have pro­duced in the genetic makeup of Europe is not altogether clear, as both originated in the Middle East. The present analysis with mtDNA control region sequences points to an important role of very ancient events. Cavalli-Sfor­za (Ammerman and Cavalli-Sforza 1984, pp. 105-107; Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi, and Piazza 1994, pp. 296-299) nonetheless interpreted the variation found in classical genetic markers as due mainly to the Neolithic expan­sion. It is intrinsically difficult to separate the genetic effects of those two diacronic waves, which had very similar geographic origins and expansion paths. How­ever, it is possible that the reduced population size dur­ing the Upper Paleolithic allowed drift to act deeply on gene frequencies but had little effect on sequence di­versity, as it is likely that the European population did not suffer any narrow bottleneck. In this case, the effect of the expansion of farming (that is, a sharp increase in mobility and population size) on gene frequencies could have been deep, transforming a random variation pattern into a cline, but would have had few consequences on mtDNA sequence diversity, which would reflect more ancient  events."

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2005 at 07:38
That is a good and interesting article indeed. MtDNA, though only showing pure maternal lineages is likely to be more stable tha Y-chromosome DNA and can give some good clues.

So Europe was colonized via Turkey between 37,000 and 107,000 years ago, or so says the article. That's pretty good coinciding with what we know via archaeology, which says that (the latest) c. 40,000 years ago modern humans colonized Europe from the Near East via the Balcans.

It also says that some of the genetics that Cavalli-Sforza attributes to Neolithic migrations could partly be much more older and only have been sharpened during this period. That's indeed interesting and prettymuch what I suspected.

It also means that most of the population in Turkey (and elsewhere) is truly old, at least via mothers, and not the product of any historical or even late prehitoric migration.

(Source?)

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2005 at 10:30
Thankyou Afunda, genetics is a newish interest for me, apologies if i have a limited knowledge. Personally think it is a good myth buster and though ive seen it twisted for nationalist views,  it should as it matures be a powerful tool against such stories of racial purity.

Your source is pretty much consistant to others I have seen. The source of the current genetic makup up in turkey is primarily home grown anadolian. Central asian flows are unsubstantial. The genetic flows to Europe and the Mid East from/back/to anadolia pre dates any langauge or identity that survives today.

I have a article "Tracing European Founder Lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA Pool" which approaches the same issues

In the intro the main points it
1 There has been substantial back-migration into the Near East
2 the majority of extant mtDNA lineages entered Europe in several waves during the Upper Palaeolithic
3 there was a founder effect or bottleneck associated with the Last Glacial Maximum 20,000 years ago
4 the immigrant Neolithic component is likely to comprise less than one-quarter of the mtDNA pool of modern Europeans

The back migrations is interesting and (as well as recurrent mutation) "represent major obstacles" to the analysis. This adds a extra dimension: the flows went both ways by the same people (ok with a different langauge/identity and probably some admixture).

"We assume that the Near East and Europe can be meaningfully considered as well-separated populations. This overlooks the extreme proximity of Greece and Turkey, for example. In fact, the historical evidence for gene flow between Europe and the Near East provides strong grounds for assuming that there is at least some back-migration from Europe across the Bosporusor, farther east, across the Caucasus into the Near Eastthroughout the past 10,000 years. Candidates include the Philistine migrations from the Aegean into the Levant during the Bronze Age (Kuhrt 1995; Tubb 1998); the expansion of Greek, Phrygian, and Armenian speakers into western Anatolia, central Anatolia, and Armenia, respectively,  1,200 B.C. Redgate 1998); and the importation of European as well as African slaves by the Islamic caliphs of Syria and Iraq during the medieval period (Lewis 1998)" pg19

I dont want to cut and paste huge pages, rather those interested can follow the link
http://www.stats.gla.ac.uk/~vincent/papers/richards_2000.p df
If you cant use the link just cut and paste the title in google






Edited by Leonidas
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2005 at 16:34
One source of back-migration could be the Gravetian culture, though is older than the dates you give, Leonidas. Gravetian has oldest dates in Western Europe and extends eastward in the mid and late stages of the Lower Paleolithic (Upper Paleolithic is about Homo Erectus!). It's impossible to say what part of that expansion is due to migration and what to difussion but the fact is that Gravetian reaches not just Ukraine and Southern Russia but also the Caucasus, the Zagros and Anatolia itself. 

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2005 at 23:58
Your right that it is one source, but the strength of back migrations cant be explained with just one migration.  Pg 16 will show you a graph (at the top) that helps visualise the back migration (as a series), which has been occuring from a very early time all the way till now.

The context of my earlier quote was to highlight, due to proximity, the similarity of greek-turk genes; as opposed to the wider partition of the near east and european groups.

My point was to show that it has been two way traffic all along. Although anadolia is a important source, this paper estimates 10-20% european genetic lineage (haplo V and the U group as markers) in anadolia which also applies for Armenians, Azeris and Kurds. These genetic groups may originally have started in or near Anadolia but their clusters that had evolved/mutated around them, done so in Europe not anadolia.





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  Quote Jhangora Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 05:48

Merhaba,

I went through the entire discussion.I am a new member n really like this website.I have a few things to say though they might not be related directly to this topic.

I believe humans originated in africa n therefore all of us r related.To think of a race being superior is foolish.We have our prejudices n bcoz of that sometimes we refuse to listen.Knowledge is good.Overall the members r well behaved.I hope we'll continue to share our views.

I've been in Korea for the last two years n koreans have mistaken me for a Mongol,Bangladeshi n American.

I have many things to say.Hope this discussion will continue. Pic below----->me n my turkish friend Ahmet Kizilgul.His mother is german.

Kendine iyi Bak,

Dinesh Mohan Raturi.

Jai Badri Vishal
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  Quote Jhangora Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 05:52
I don't like living in Korea.Would i be accepted as a Turk if I come to Turkey.I won't change my religion though.Willing to learn the language.I like Turkish songs a lot.Ibrahim Tatlises----Aman melegim the best.I heard he is a Kurd.
Jai Badri Vishal
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 06:48

Hi there!

I think you're Indian or Pakistani...oh, wait! Since you don't want to change your religion, you must be Indian

It seems that many Indians are working abroad and are very good skilled engineers and high tech proffecionals. I'm sure there're plenty of positions also in Turkey, if you want to move there!

The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 06:50
Yeah, we're gonna welcome you
[IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg">
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  Quote Jhangora Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 07:02

kamsa hamida kotumeyil

Jai Badri Vishal
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  Quote Jhangora Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 07:07
Originally posted by Yiannis

Hi there!

I think you're Indian or Pakistani...oh, wait! Since you don't want to change your religion, you must be Indian

It seems that many Indians are working abroad and are very good skilled engineers and high tech proffecionals. I'm sure there're plenty of positions also in Turkey, if you want to move there!

Hi there moderator,

I am an Indian n unfortunately an illegal migrant worker.Making 40 US $ a day loading ship containers.So no high tech jobs for me.

Take Care,

Dinesh Mohan raturi.

Jai Badri Vishal
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 08:14

In that case, perhaps Turkey is not the right place to seek an illegal migrant worker's wage. But from what I see, you're not unskilled at all, you can use a computer and speak a foreign language (or maybe more) so you have more skills than you think. I'm sure that you'll do much better over time!

PS

My name is Yiannis, not moderator

The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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  Quote arfunda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 09:09

Maju and Leonidas, Thank you for your interest and for your scientific participations. It's nice to read your approaches.

Maju, you say:"It also means that most of the population in Turkey (and elsewhere) is truly old, at least via mothers, and not the product of any historical or even late prehistoric migration." Yes, the prehistorical/historical documents and scientific clues make me think just like you. So I can say that we are the "Turkish speaking Anotolian natives".  Have you seen Hitit men on wall pictures who are wearing high semi-coni-shaped hats? Some villagers, living in orum- -even now- wear this kind of hats. Folcloric hats and head coverages of women (on which have gold coins) in some regions of Anotolia are similar with those on the Urartian wall pictures. Most of the city, town, village, river, lake names in Anotolia have Luwian origin. People here think that they are Turkish but most words aren't Turkish. Turkish speaking people have changed teir pronouncations spoutanously in centuries in order to adapt them into Turkish language. If you search the ethimology, you see that they have Lwian origins. Even the name of some places which had been supposed to have Greek origin have Luwian origin.

Here are another searches on Y chromosomes (shoving paternal lineages). I want to share them with you. But I don't have full-text articles, they are not free online.

Best regards

Arfunda

 Hum Genet. 2004 Jan;114(2):127-48. Epub 2003 Oct 29.

Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia.

Cinnioglu C, King R, Kivisild T, Kalfoglu E, Atasoy S, Cavalleri GL, Lillie AS, Roseman CC, Lin AA, Prince K, Oefner PJ, Shen P, Semino O, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA.

Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, 300 Pasteur Drive, Stanford, CA 94305-5120, USA.

Analysis of 89 biallelic polymorphisms in 523 Turkish Y chromosomes revealed 52 distinct haplotypes with considerable haplogroup substructure, as exemplified by their respective levels of accumulated diversity at ten short tandem repeat (STR) loci. The major components (haplogroups E3b, G, J, I, L, N, K2, and R1; 94.1%) are shared with European and neighboring Near Eastern populations and contrast with only a minor share of haplogroups related to Central Asian (C, Q and O; 3.4%), Indian (H, R2; 1.5%) and African (A, E3*, E3a; 1%) affinity. The expansion times for 20 haplogroup assemblages was estimated from associated STR diversity. This comprehensive characterization of Y-chromosome heritage addresses many multifaceted aspects of Anatolian prehistory, including: (1) the most frequent haplogroup, J, splits into two sub-clades, one of which (J2) shows decreasing variances with increasing latitude, compatible with a northward expansion; (2) haplogroups G1 and L show affinities with south Caucasus populations in their geographic distribution as well as STR motifs; (3) frequency of haplogroup I, which originated in Europe, declines with increasing longitude, indicating gene flow arriving from Europe; (4) conversely, haplogroup G2 radiates towards Europe; (5) haplogroup E3b3 displays a latitudinal correlation with decreasing frequency northward; (6) haplogroup R1b3 emanates from Turkey towards Southeast Europe and Caucasia and; (7) high resolution SNP analysis provides evidence of a detectable yet weak signal (<9%) of recent paternal gene flow from Central Asia. The variety of Turkish haplotypes is witness to Turkey being both an important source and recipient of gene flow.

Ann Hum Genet. 2001 Jul;65(Pt 4):339-49.

A multistep process for the dispersal of a Y chromosomal lineage in the Mediterranean area.

Malaspina P, Tsopanomichalou M, Duman T, Stefan M, Silvestri A, Rinaldi B, Garcia O, Giparaki M, Plata E, Kozlov AI, Barbujani G, Vernesi C, Papola F, Ciavarella G, Kovatchev D, Kerimova MG, Anagnou N, Gavrila L, Veneziano L, Akar N, Loutradis A, Michalodimitrakis EN, Terrenato L, Novelletto A.

Department of Biology, University Tor Vergata, Rome, Italy.

In this work we focus on a microsatellite-defined Y-chromosomal lineage (network 1.2) identified by us and reported in previous studies, whose geographic distribution and antiquity appear to be compatible with the Neolithic spread of farmers. Here, we set network 1.2 in the Y-chromosomal phylogenetic tree, date it with respect to other lineages associated with the same movements by other authors, examine its diversity by means of tri- and tetranucleotide loci and discuss the implications in reconstructing the spread of this group of chromosomes in the Mediterranean area. Our results define a tripartite phylogeny within HG 9 (Rosser et al. 2000), with the deepest branching defined by alleles T (Haplogroup Eu10) or G (Haplogroup Eu9) at M172 (Semino et al. 2000), and a subsequent branching within Eu9 defined by network 1.2. Population distributions of HG 9 and network 1.2 show that their occurrence in the surveyed area is not due to the spread of people from a single parental population but, rather, to a process punctuated by at least two phases. Our data identify the wide area of the Balkans, Aegean and Anatolia as the possible homeland harbouring the largest variation within network 1.2. The use of recently proposed tests based on the stepwise mutation model suggests that its spread was associated to a population expansion, with a high rate of male gene flow in the Turkish-Greek area.

Am J Phys Anthropol. 2001 Jun;115(2):144-56.

DNA diversity and population admixture in Anatolia.

Di Benedetto G, Erguven A, Stenico M, Castri L, Bertorelle G, Togan I, Barbujani G.

Dipartimento di Biologia, Universita di Ferrara, I-44100 Ferrara, Italy.

The Turkic language was introduced in Anatolia at the start of this millennium, by nomadic Turkmen groups from Central Asia. Whether that cultural transition also had significant population-genetics consequences is not fully understood. Three nuclear microsatellite loci, the hypervariable region I of the mitochondrial genome, six microsatellite loci of the Y chromosome, and one Alu insertion (YAP) were amplified and typed in 118 individuals from four populations of Anatolia. For each locus, the number of chromosomes considered varied between 51-200. Genetic variation was large within samples, and much less so between them. The contribution of Central Asian genes to the current Anatolian gene pool was quantified using three different methods, considering for comparison populations of Mediterranean Europe, and Turkic-speaking populations of Central Asia. The most reliable estimates suggest roughly 30% Central Asian admixture for both mitochondrial and Y-chromosome loci. That (admittedly approximate) figure is compatible both with a substantial immigration accompanying the arrival of the Turkmen armies (which is not historically documented), and with continuous gene flow from Asia into Anatolia, at a rate of 1% for 40 generations. Because a military invasion is expected to more deeply affect the male gene pool, similar estimates of admixture for female- and male-transmitted traits are easier to reconcile with continuous migratory contacts between Anatolia and its Asian neighbors, perhaps facilitated by the disappearance of a linguistic barrier between them. Copyright 2001 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 11:04

The most reliable estimates suggest roughly 30% Central Asian admixture for both mitochondrial and Y-chromosome loci.

Maybe. But we are sure it wasnt just the men and armies arriving to Anatolia. It wasnt just a conquest. It was a new homeland for the Turkmen, with massive immigrations from pre-Seljuk period (Oguz, Pchenek, Kipchak in 9th-10th centuries) to the vawes after Mongolians and Timur.

  Most of the city, town, village, river, lake names in Anotolia have Luwian origin. People here think that they are Turkish but most words aren't Turkish.

Well, Luwians also werent Greeks, they were people related with Hittites. And Hittites were spread from Eastern Anatolia to Troy, from Black Sea to Syria.

And yes, most of the region-city names in Anatolia have original Hittite/Luwian names. It is also true that their cultures are still somehow alive, synthesized in ours. Anyway, since they werent any related with Greeks (even more related with Persians and ancient middle Eastern societies), no problem with it...

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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 12:38
Well strangly enough ive saw a Turkish guy called "Tarhun", he whas also from orum (a province in Turkey). Isnt Tarhun a hitite king? I did ask how it comes he got that name and he told me its the name of his grandfather.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 16:42
The contribution of Central Asian genes to the current Anatolian gene pool was quantified using three different methods, considering for comparison populations of Mediterranean Europe, and Turkic-speaking populations of Central Asia. The most reliable estimates suggest roughly 30% Central Asian admixture for both mitochondrial and Y-chromosome loci. That (admittedly approximate) figure is compatible both with a substantial immigration accompanying the arrival of the Turkmen armies (which is not historically documented), and with continuous gene flow from Asia into Anatolia, at a rate of 1% for 40 generations. Because a military invasion is expected to more deeply affect the male gene pool, similar estimates of admixture for female- and male-transmitted traits are easier to reconcile with continuous migratory contacts between Anatolia and its Asian neighbors, perhaps facilitated by the disappearance of a linguistic barrier between them.


The author shouldn't forget that there is a strong chance that IEs (like Hittites and Luwians) came originally also from that Central Asian region that now speaks Turk languages. I don't think this is considered in the study bt shouldn't be ignored.

Anyhow, it's clear that such a central region as Asia Minor, and in general the Near East and the Balcans, have always been exposed to population flows in and out. No one should expect to find any "pure" isolated population like the ones that are sometimes found in marginal not frequented areas.

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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2005 at 23:32

Well strangly enough ive saw a Turkish guy called "Tarhun", he whas also from orum (a province in Turkey). Isnt Tarhun a hitite king? I did ask how it comes he got that name and he told me its the name of his grandfather.

It's not the name of a Hittite king, but it does look very Luwian.  A Luwian king of Arzawa was named Tarhundaradu at the time of the Hittite king Suppiluliumas I and the Egyptian king Amenophis III whom the Arzawan king corresponded with.   His name has the element Tarhund- which answers to the name of the Luwian god Tarhundas (or Tarhunt), the Weather-god.   The name is from the word tarh- which meant, "to conquer". 

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Oct-2005 at 06:53
Arfunda, I found a PDF version of "Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia" & "DNA diversity and population admixture in Anatolia." are on the web,  i think I know which website ur on and its tight in giving it out for freebees. Your best bet is the stanford uni sight, or just google the titles.

The 30% figure is highest ive come across, but it is from the paternal side which is different to all the others which focus on the maternal.


http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v63n6/9 70820/970820.web.pdf?erFrom=3995852542252316629Guest
Link "Trading Genes along the Silk Road: mtDNA Sequences and the Origin of Central Asian Populations" 1998 (tell me if this works)

This kinda ties it back to Central Asia, and has some interesting graphs (pg 6/7) on where Anadolian Turks (on their motherside) are placed with  other Altaic/Turkic people.

"The four central Asian populations presented the shortest genetic distances among themselves, and Mongolians are the population genetically closest to these central Asian groups. If African populations are added to the analysis, they present large genetic distances to all other populations. It is interesting to note that Turks present shorter genetic distances to the British than to central Asians, even though the central Asian populations samples in the present study speak Turkic languages. A neighbor-joining tree was built as described in theMaterial andMethods section, with the genetic distances estimated on the basis of the mismatch-intermatch distance. The robustness of the tree was assessed bymeans of 1,000 bootstrap replicates (Efron 1982; Felsenstein 1985), a consensus tree was built, and bootstrap supports 150% have been represented on its nodes (fig. 2). It is evident that central Asian populations occupy a position intermediate between the eastern Asian (Chinese, Korean, and Ainu) and the Western (Middle Eastern, British, and Turk) populations. Not surprisingly, the most robust nodes are those that cluster together the eastern Asian populations on one end and the Western populations on the other end. No robust branches subdivided the central Asian populations." pg6







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