Greece and Turkey genetic map( today)

Originally posted by Maju no group of people can be converded in only 400-500 years History has good examples of the opposite: Iberians were speaking Iberian in 100 BCE and they were speaking Latin in 400 CE and considered themselves totally Romans, the same can be said of Gauls and others. Most of Hispano-America has been transformed into Spanish nations, still most of their blood is native. Spanish presence was only of three centuries. Also, Turk presence in Anatolia has much more than 500 years. If I don't recall badly, when the crusaders arrived in 12th century there were already Turks in large parts of Anatolia. Add to that the "ethnic exchange" done in the 1920s with Greece and... voil�!

Even look at christianity. In a matter of 500 years most of the Roman Empire,(even though it was dieing), had converted into christiantiy while 500 years before christians were persecuted!

The differential effect that two separate expansions, the Upper Paleolithic and the Neolithic, may have pro­duced in the genetic makeup of Europe is not altogether clear, as both originated in the Middle East. The present analysis with mtDNA control region sequences points to an important role of very ancient events. Cavalli-Sfor­za (Ammerman and Cavalli-Sforza 1984, pp. 105-107; Cavalli-Sforza, Menozzi, and Piazza 1994, pp. 296-299) nonetheless interpreted the variation found in classical genetic markers as due mainly to the Neolithic expan­sion. It is intrinsically difficult to separate the genetic effects of those two diacronic waves, which had very similar geographic origins and expansion paths. How­ever, it is possible that the reduced population size dur­ing the Upper Paleolithic allowed drift to act deeply on gene frequencies but had little effect on sequence di­versity, as it is likely that the European population did not suffer any narrow bottleneck. In this case, the effect of the expansion of farming (that is, a sharp increase in mobility and population size) on gene frequencies could have been deep, transforming a random variation pattern into a cline, but would have had few consequences on mtDNA sequence diversity, which would reflect more ancient  events."

Thankyou Afunda, genetics is a newish interest for me, apologies if i have a limited knowledge. Personally think it is a good myth buster and though ive seen it twisted for nationalist views,  it should as it matures be a powerful tool against such stories of racial purity.

Your source is pretty much consistant to others I have seen. The source of the current genetic makup up in turkey is primarily home grown anadolian. Central asian flows are unsubstantial. The genetic flows to Europe and the Mid East from/back/to anadolia pre dates any langauge or identity that survives today.

I have a article "Tracing European Founder Lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA Pool" which approaches the same issues

In the intro the main points it
1 There has been substantial back-migration into the Near East
2 the majority of extant mtDNA lineages entered Europe in several waves during the Upper Palaeolithic
3 there was a founder effect or bottleneck associated with the Last Glacial Maximum 20,000 years ago
4 the immigrant Neolithic component is likely to comprise less than one-quarter of the mtDNA pool of modern Europeans

The back migrations is interesting and (as well as recurrent mutation) "represent major obstacles" to the analysis. This adds a extra dimension: the flows went both ways by the same people (ok with a different langauge/identity and probably some admixture).

"We assume that the Near East and Europe can be meaningfully considered as well-separated populations. This overlooks the extreme proximity of Greece and Turkey, for example. In fact, the historical evidence for gene flow between Europe and the Near East provides strong grounds for assuming that there is at least some back-migration from Europe across the Bosporus�or, farther east, across the Caucasus into the Near East�throughout the past 10,000 years. Candidates include the Philistine migrations from the Aegean into the Levant during the Bronze Age (Kuhrt 1995; Tubb 1998); the expansion of Greek, Phrygian, and Armenian speakers into western Anatolia, central Anatolia, and Armenia, respectively,  �1,200 B.C. Redgate 1998); and the importation of European as well as African slaves by the Islamic caliphs of Syria and Iraq during the medieval period (Lewis 1998)" pg19

I dont want to cut and paste huge pages, rather those interested can follow the link
http://www.stats.gla.ac.uk/~vincent/papers/richards_2000.p df
If you cant use the link just cut and paste the title in google






Edited by Leonidas

Your right that it is one source, but the strength of back migrations cant be explained with just one migration.  Pg 16 will show you a graph (at the top) that helps visualise the back migration (as a series), which has been occuring from a very early time all the way till now.

The context of my earlier quote was to highlight, due to proximity, the similarity of greek-turk genes; as opposed to the wider partition of the near east and european groups.

My point was to show that it has been two way traffic all along. Although anadolia is a important source, this paper estimates 10-20% european genetic lineage (haplo V and the U group as markers) in anadolia which also applies for Armenians, Azeris and Kurds. These genetic groups may originally have started in or near Anadolia but their clusters that had evolved/mutated around them, done so in Europe not anadolia.





Edited by Leonidas

I don't like living in Korea.Would i be accepted as a Turk if I come to Turkey.I won't change my religion though.Willing to learn the language.I like Turkish songs a lot.Ibrahim Tatlises----Aman melegim the best.I heard he is a Kurd.

Yeah, we're gonna welcome you

Originally posted by Yiannis Hi there! I think you're Indian or Pakistani...oh, wait! Since you don't want to change your religion, you must be Indian It seems that many Indians are working abroad and are very good skilled engineers and high tech proffecionals. I'm sure there're plenty of positions also in Turkey, if you want to move there!

Hi there moderator,

I am an Indian n unfortunately an illegal migrant worker.Making 40 US $ a day loading ship containers.So no high tech jobs for me.

Take Care,

Dinesh Mohan raturi.

Maju and Leonidas, Thank you for your interest and for your scientific participations. It's nice to read your approaches.

Maju, you say:"It also means that most of the population in Turkey (and elsewhere) is truly old, at least via mothers, and not the product of any historical or even late prehistoric migration." Yes, the prehistorical/historical documents and scientific clues make me think just like you. So I can say that we are the "Turkish speaking Anotolian natives".  Have you seen Hitit men on wall pictures who are wearing high semi-coni-shaped hats? Some villagers, living in �orum- -even now- wear this kind of hats. Folcloric hats and head coverages of women (on which have gold coins) in some regions of Anotolia are similar with those on the Urartian wall pictures. Most of the city, town, village, river, lake names in Anotolia have Luwian origin. People here think that they are Turkish but most words aren't Turkish. Turkish speaking people have changed teir pronouncations spoutanously in centuries in order to adapt them into Turkish language. If you search the ethimology, you see that they have L�wian origins. Even the name of some places which had been supposed to have Greek origin have Luwian origin.

Here are another searches on Y chromosomes (shoving paternal lineages). I want to share them with you. But I don't have full-text articles, they are not free online.

Best regards

Arfunda

 Hum Genet. 2004 Jan;114(2):127-48. Epub 2003 Oct 29.

Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia.

Cinnioglu C, King R, Kivisild T, Kalfoglu E, Atasoy S, Cavalleri GL, Lillie AS, Roseman CC, Lin AA, Prince K, Oefner PJ, Shen P, Semino O, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA.

Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, 300 Pasteur Drive, Stanford, CA 94305-5120, USA.

Analysis of 89 biallelic polymorphisms in 523 Turkish Y chromosomes revealed 52 distinct haplotypes with considerable haplogroup substructure, as exemplified by their respective levels of accumulated diversity at ten short tandem repeat (STR) loci. The major components (haplogroups E3b, G, J, I, L, N, K2, and R1; 94.1%) are shared with European and neighboring Near Eastern populations and contrast with only a minor share of haplogroups related to Central Asian (C, Q and O; 3.4%), Indian (H, R2; 1.5%) and African (A, E3*, E3a; 1%) affinity. The expansion times for 20 haplogroup assemblages was estimated from associated STR diversity. This comprehensive characterization of Y-chromosome heritage addresses many multifaceted aspects of Anatolian prehistory, including: (1) the most frequent haplogroup, J, splits into two sub-clades, one of which (J2) shows decreasing variances with increasing latitude, compatible with a northward expansion; (2) haplogroups G1 and L show affinities with south Caucasus populations in their geographic distribution as well as STR motifs; (3) frequency of haplogroup I, which originated in Europe, declines with increasing longitude, indicating gene flow arriving from Europe; (4) conversely, haplogroup G2 radiates towards Europe; (5) haplogroup E3b3 displays a latitudinal correlation with decreasing frequency northward; (6) haplogroup R1b3 emanates from Turkey towards Southeast Europe and Caucasia and; (7) high resolution SNP analysis provides evidence of a detectable yet weak signal (<9%) of recent paternal gene flow from Central Asia. The variety of Turkish haplotypes is witness to Turkey being both an important source and recipient of gene flow.

Ann Hum Genet. 2001 Jul;65(Pt 4):339-49.

A multistep process for the dispersal of a Y chromosomal lineage in the Mediterranean area.

Malaspina P, Tsopanomichalou M, Duman T, Stefan M, Silvestri A, Rinaldi B, Garcia O, Giparaki M, Plata E, Kozlov AI, Barbujani G, Vernesi C, Papola F, Ciavarella G, Kovatchev D, Kerimova MG, Anagnou N, Gavrila L, Veneziano L, Akar N, Loutradis A, Michalodimitrakis EN, Terrenato L, Novelletto A.

Department of Biology, University Tor Vergata, Rome, Italy.

In this work we focus on a microsatellite-defined Y-chromosomal lineage (network 1.2) identified by us and reported in previous studies, whose geographic distribution and antiquity appear to be compatible with the Neolithic spread of farmers. Here, we set network 1.2 in the Y-chromosomal phylogenetic tree, date it with respect to other lineages associated with the same movements by other authors, examine its diversity by means of tri- and tetranucleotide loci and discuss the implications in reconstructing the spread of this group of chromosomes in the Mediterranean area. Our results define a tripartite phylogeny within HG 9 (Rosser et al. 2000), with the deepest branching defined by alleles T (Haplogroup Eu10) or G (Haplogroup Eu9) at M172 (Semino et al. 2000), and a subsequent branching within Eu9 defined by network 1.2. Population distributions of HG 9 and network 1.2 show that their occurrence in the surveyed area is not due to the spread of people from a single parental population but, rather, to a process punctuated by at least two phases. Our data identify the wide area of the Balkans, Aegean and Anatolia as the possible homeland harbouring the largest variation within network 1.2. The use of recently proposed tests based on the stepwise mutation model suggests that its spread was associated to a population expansion, with a high rate of male gene flow in the Turkish-Greek area.

Am J Phys Anthropol. 2001 Jun;115(2):144-56.

DNA diversity and population admixture in Anatolia.

Di Benedetto G, Erguven A, Stenico M, Castri L, Bertorelle G, Togan I, Barbujani G.

Dipartimento di Biologia, Universita di Ferrara, I-44100 Ferrara, Italy.

The Turkic language was introduced in Anatolia at the start of this millennium, by nomadic Turkmen groups from Central Asia. Whether that cultural transition also had significant population-genetics consequences is not fully understood. Three nuclear microsatellite loci, the hypervariable region I of the mitochondrial genome, six microsatellite loci of the Y chromosome, and one Alu insertion (YAP) were amplified and typed in 118 individuals from four populations of Anatolia. For each locus, the number of chromosomes considered varied between 51-200. Genetic variation was large within samples, and much less so between them. The contribution of Central Asian genes to the current Anatolian gene pool was quantified using three different methods, considering for comparison populations of Mediterranean Europe, and Turkic-speaking populations of Central Asia. The most reliable estimates suggest roughly 30% Central Asian admixture for both mitochondrial and Y-chromosome loci. That (admittedly approximate) figure is compatible both with a substantial immigration accompanying the arrival of the Turkmen armies (which is not historically documented), and with continuous gene flow from Asia into Anatolia, at a rate of 1% for 40 generations. Because a military invasion is expected to more deeply affect the male gene pool, similar estimates of admixture for female- and male-transmitted traits are easier to reconcile with continuous migratory contacts between Anatolia and its Asian neighbors, perhaps facilitated by the disappearance of a linguistic barrier between them. Copyright 2001 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

Well strangly enough ive saw a Turkish guy called "Tarhun", he whas also from �orum (a province in Turkey). Isnt Tarhun a hitite king? I did ask how it comes he got that name and he told me its the name of his grandfather.

Well strangly enough ive saw a Turkish guy called "Tarhun", he whas also from �orum (a province in Turkey). Isnt Tarhun a hitite king? I did ask how it comes he got that name and he told me its the name of his grandfather.

It's not the name of a Hittite king, but it does look very Luwian.  A Luwian king of Arzawa was named Tarhundaradu at the time of the Hittite king Suppiluliumas I and the Egyptian king Amenophis III whom the Arzawan king corresponded with.   His name has the element Tarhund- which answers to the name of the Luwian god Tarhundas (or Tarhunt), the Weather-god.   The name is from the word tarh- which meant, "to conquer".