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Who are the Kurds?

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  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who are the Kurds?
    Posted: 20-May-2005 at 04:54
Just out of interest "who are the Kurds?" did they just popup like mushrooms? from history looking back.... I cant see any time they existed in the area....(yes there are writings claiming that this area has kurds etc.. but I suppose that is more political than the truth)

anyway what is their roots? which people? and please before you answer the question for something to be historically viable, you need proof.. and that is some 3rd nation confirmation of that era of existance.

P.s. some of their dialects are similar with turkish and georgian...but that most probably states that those people are from those area's rather than of people....

If you have any info.. write I would be interested to know...
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 05:29

It is better to ask who are these Turks and Arabs in Kurdistan?

who are the Kurds?

They are an Iranian people like Persians, Baluchis, Afghans, Tajiks, ...

did they just popup like mushrooms?

No, they have at least 3,000 years recorded history.

from history looking back.... I cant see any time they existed in the area

sorry it shows you know nothing about the history of this part of the world!

yes there are writings claiming that this area has kurds etc.. but I suppose that is more political than the truth

Why?!

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  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 06:04
"Cyrus Shahmiri"

"They are an Iranian people like Persians, Baluchis, Afghans, Tajiks, ..." - thats the first time I am hearing that the kurds are iranian in origin... so that would in a sense put them in this region in what period?

"No, they have at least 3,000 years recorded history." -

Well looking at chronological maps of different periods.. there are no Kurdistan nor is there any mention of Kurds..in region from Transoxiana to the middle east... periods from Ghaznevids 963 AD........Seljuks 1038-1307.. to Ottomans 1281-1923.. (of course Karakhanids, Tulunids, Atabeks,Zengids,Ildeniz,Salgurids, Artukids,Danismendids,Mengujukids,Saltukids,Kharzem Shahs,Mamluks,Timurids,Karakoyunlu,Akkoyunlu,Safevids,Karama nids,Menteseids,Jandarids,Germiyanids,Hamidids,Saruhanids,Ay dinids,Eretnids,Dulkadirids, Ramazanids... etc inbetween)
   so if you say they have 3000 year history.. tell me where and when to look for them.., what regions, what people..what period.. Byzantine, Persian, Seljuks ? and 3000 years with no writen or spoken standard language?

"sorry it shows you know nothing about the history of this part of the world! "

I know quite a bit about this part of the world but there are no resources that I have come accross that date back further than modern times about the kurds.. which seems strange

"yes there are writings claiming that this area has kurds etc.. but I suppose that is more political than the truth     " - "Why?!"

- Why, well.. think.. being an outsider to the area presume you are the EU or the US.. and you need to control the area..its better for you to have a more mouldable country named Kurdistan with people that will look up to you and wont be against you... in the area than to have 3-4 military giant countries that wont kneel before anyone nor will they be controlled by anyone (Iran, Turkey, Syria...) ... easier to control.. so they provide all the support they can..

As a turk who's family faught and bled with the people of the area.. I couldn't care less about who people begin calling themselves I dont even mind if you start your own people "Cyrus Shahmiri'ians" and claim on regions.. but as the region forgets it own history and looses itself to political mouldings of outsiders.. we all loose..
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  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 09:39
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

It is better to ask who are these Turks and Arabs in Kurdistan?

If you really want to create a place like Kurdistan just look at inside Iran and ask this question differently....

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

No, they have at least 3,000 years recorded history

 

No in fact they were the ex-habitants of Atlantis.

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  Quote Ionian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 09:41

kurds r the ancient mydians. A persian race population...

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  Quote Ionian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 09:59
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  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 10:18
Originally posted by Ionian

kurds r the ancient mydians. A persian race population...



I wouldn't call them persian.. but 7-6BC on the Mydians.. Atropatena... so you're tieing them with ancient azerbaijan.. that is before it was massively overtaken by turkic tribes.. maybe.. have to look into that..
But I still doubt that todays kurds can be tied to them.. they are most probably some other people..
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 11:01

Kurds are Iranic people, but they dont have a specific settlement region. They were consisted of nomadic Iranic tribes, and they once settled in western Iran, northern mesopotamia. But these are all before the existance of a national identity as "Kurds".

During the Ottoman reign, Kurds were mostly consisted of Alevis and Shias in the beginning, after they were being converted to Sunnite sect systematically. As we know, societies were differed according to religious groups in the Ottoman system, so Turkmens, Kurds and Zazas were considered as the same nomadic people and most of the Kurdish society was living in mountaionous regions. Then, with the religious and economical oppressing of the Ottomans, a big amount of the Anatolian Turkmens became "yrk"s, a word derived from the verb "yrmek" (walking) in Turkish. They immigrated to those mountaionous areas of Eastern and southern Anatolia, and even northern Anatolia. And much of them were mixed and lost their national identities.

So there appeared the current Kurds, with mixing of Turkmens and all other Alevi, Shia people (Zazas, Muslim Armenians etc.). They didnt have any national identities and goals of independence since the collapse of Ottoman Empire. But after the collapse of the empire, with the western provokations and some non-Kurdish and even non-Muslim leaders, they became a nation and were tried to be seperated from us. But the authorities reacted these actions hardly, with wrong policies.

So today, they are seen as our enemies and a totally different ethnic group of middle east, but in fact, they are just some imperialism tools for the total control of middle east and eastern Anatolia. Even the provokative people who call themselves Kurds arent the real Kurds, and arent our brothers like real Kurds. But unfortunately, international media is a very effective weapon for some powes and their bullets are propoganda. And this propoganda can even be enough to seperate us from our brothers. That is a shame...

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 12:42

Map of Parthian Empire (247 BC-224 AD): 

Gordyene (Kurdistan) is the west of Atropatene (Azarbaijan) and the south of Armenia.

Map of Safavid Empire (1501 AD-1736 AD):

And as you see Kurds are still in the same region.

Map of Achaemenid Empire (521 - 486 BC / Darius the Great) [Kurds (Corduenes) are in the same region]

Map of Seleucid Empire (312 - 281 BC) [Kurds (Carduchis) are in the same region]

Map of Sassanid Empire  [Kurds (Corduenes) are in the same region]

Map of Zeyarid Empire (928 - 1023 AD) [Kurds are in the same region]

Map of Seljuq Empire (1072 - 1092 AD) [Kurdistan is a major province in the north of Iraq-e-Arab]

Map of Assassins (1090 - 1124 AD) [Kurds are in the same region]

Map of Khwarazm-Shah Empire (1171 - 1230 AD) [Kurdistan is conquered by Sultan Muhammad]

Map of Atabegs (1160 AD) [East Kurdistan (part of Seljuq of Iraq) and West Kurdistan (part of Atabeg of Musel)]

Map of Ilkhanid Empire (1253 - 1291 AD) [Kurdistan is one of the largest provinces]

Map of Timurid Empire (1404 - 1446 AD) [Kurdistan is one of the largest provinces]

Map of Afsharid Empire (1723 - 1735 AD/before reign of Nadir Shah) [Kurdistan is one of the largest provinces]

Map of Zand Empire (1749 - 1794 AD) [Kurdistan is one of the largest provinces]

Map of Qajar Empire (1797 - 1924 AD) [Kurdistan is one of the largest provinces]



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri
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  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 12:57
Originally posted by Ionian

kurds r the ancient mydians. A persian race population...

Kurds are Medians but not Persians. They're a group of people who's been living in Iranian plateau for at least 6000 years. a large population of Kurds have been mixed with Medians.

Ionian, is that a Greek map or Turkish? I'm curious about the name "Midian Doyleti"

baracuda, for written evidence of Kurdish existance and history read about Elamite and their language, Kurdish is a sub-language of Elamitian. Also, you can look for them in Akkadian and Sumerian inscriptions. Anyhow, I try to explain and quote as best as I can; By 7th Cen B.C, Kurds were present in Zagros-mountains, Fars (Perse), and even Kerman (SE Iran). Greek and Roman sources reported a community of people living in central Persia and and in Perse, that they refered to as 'cyrti' (-> Kurti -> Kurdi). Some Islamic sources after Islamic invasion of Iran have mentioned the Kurdish population living in southern Zagros. In ~ 500 B.C Darius in Behistun mentions whe word "kara", the Kurdish guerrilla mountaineers who he fought with and admired their warfare tactics. Medians built their capital Ecbatana, by the help of Kurds, I have a Median inscription right in front of me mentioning the word "Kurd" and "Kurdi" in its translation.


Edited by ramin
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  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 13:03
Im looking in to the maps Cyrus posted.. my arabic is rusty.. but seems interesting.. it will take me sometime..

Ramin will also look at what you're saying.. by the way, the map Ionian posted is in Azeri.. azeri is almost exactly the same as turkish, in turkish it would be 'Midiyan Devleti'.
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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 14:26

Kurds are a non-Arab Middle Eastern minority population that inhabits the transnational region known as Kurdistan, a plateau and mountain area in Southwest Asia including parts of Iraq, Turkey, and Iran and smaller sections of Syria and Armenia. They speak Kurdish, an Indo European language of a similiar lineage to that of Persian. They are widely thought to be descended of the Medes. Xenophon the ancient Greek historian recorded the Kurds in the Anabasis as "Khardukhi" a firece and protective mountain dwelling peoples who attacked his armies in 400 BC.

 

The Kurdish languages belong to the northwestern group of the Iranian branch of the Indo-European family; a close relative is Persian, which is in the southwestern group.

 

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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2005 at 15:55

The Assyrians did in fact record the name "Kurti" in the regions where the later Carduchi, Carduene/Gorduene, and the Kurds inhabited, to the north of Assyria.  Some make the earliest reference to Kurds as the Guti of the Sumerian sources, inhabitants of the Zagros Mts., however the Assyrians knew them as the Kuti, at the same time they had knowledge of the Kurti. 

Since the Assyrian references to the Kurti preceded that of the Median conquest of the region, we need to see Kurdish origins as a much more complex process.  They inhabited a region which was linguistically Hurrian, a situation which was in evidence since the third millenium BC.  They were perhaps Hurrians, or at least Hurrian-related.  When the state of Urartu was conquered by the Medes, the Kurti, which were also part of the Urartean state were also conquered. 

While Urartu was Armenianizing, the Kurds were with much resistance, Aryanizing.  The process may have taken centuries since those mountainous regions were difficult to conquer, but even more difficult to hold.  The Assyrians were always trying to pacify those mountainous regions, but they knew that these were temporary measures, and even the Persians found these areas difficult to hold.  Xenophon, describing the penetration into the mountainous Carduchian region by the 10,000, related that a Persian army had been totally destroyed trying to subdue the region, and the region was thus independent when the 10,000 arrived.   

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  Quote Ionian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2005 at 06:53
 im agree with u...... its turkish map
Originally posted by ramin

Originally posted by Ionian

kurds r the ancient mydians. A persian race population...

Kurds are Medians but not Persians. They're a group of people who's been living in Iranian plateau for at least 6000 years. a large population of Kurds have been mixed with Medians.

Ionian, is that a Greek map or Turkish? I'm curious about the name "Midian Doyleti"

baracuda, for written evidence of Kurdish existance and history read about Elamite and their language, Kurdish is a sub-language of Elamitian. Also, you can look for them in Akkadian and Sumerian inscriptions. Anyhow, I try to explain and quote as best as I can; By 7th Cen B.C, Kurds were present in Zagros-mountains, Fars (Perse), and even Kerman (SE Iran). Greek and Roman sources reported a community of people living in central Persia and and in Perse, that they refered to as 'cyrti' (-> Kurti -> Kurdi). Some Islamic sources after Islamic invasion of Iran have mentioned the Kurdish population living in southern Zagros. In ~ 500 B.C Darius in Behistun mentions whe word "kara", the Kurdish guerrilla mountaineers who he fought with and admired their warfare tactics. Medians built their capital Ecbatana, by the help of Kurds, I have a Median inscription right in front of me mentioning the word "Kurd" and "Kurdi" in its translation.
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  Quote Ionian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2005 at 06:59

kurdish language is indoeuropean language..... not altaic(turkish)

so kurds nothing to do with turkish....

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  Quote Ionian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2005 at 07:06
kurdish populations today
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  Quote Indiana Jones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2005 at 15:06

Let us not forget of course the new nascent-state movement that the Kurds support. Many of the Kurds would very much like to break off northern Iraq and eastern Turkey to form their own state, Kurdistan. In fact, Turkey has a very tough policy regarding the Kurds in its eastern area. Remember at the beginning of the Iraq occupation that Turkey was about to run into the Kurdish Northern Iraq area to keep it out of the hands of Kurds who might aggitate for nationhood. In fact, one of the reasons they probably did not let the American Army go through Turkey, not only because it was unpopular internationally and in the Middle East, but because the American Army would take the same route into northern Iraq that Turkey itself thought it might run into.

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  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2005 at 15:26
Originally posted by Indiana Jones

Let us not forget of course the new nascent-state movement that the Kurds support. Many of the Kurds would very much like to break off northern Iraq and eastern Turkey to form their own state, Kurdistan. In fact, Turkey has a very tough policy regarding the Kurds in its eastern area. Remember at the beginning of the Iraq occupation that Turkey was about to run into the Kurdish Northern Iraq area to keep it out of the hands of Kurds who might aggitate for nationhood. In fact, one of the reasons they probably did not let the American Army go through Turkey, not only because it was unpopular internationally and in the Middle East, but because the American Army would take the same route into northern Iraq that Turkey itself thought it might run into.



No politics please, its pointless if you want to argue on the strategical aspects of anything post it somewhere else and I will tell you to's and against for your thoughts, I worked as a military strategist for Nato, until a few years back.. so I have ton's of info on the area in many aspects..


Originally posted by Ionian

kurdish language is indoeuropean language..... not altaic(turkish)


so kurds nothing to do with turkish....



Kurdish from other posts of people who replied to my question, shouldnt be similar in any way to Altaic languages like you say Ionian.. but like I said, I have come to contact with 2 dialects of kurdish, it seems to me that they are a mixture of turkish,persian and georgian languages.. maybe "Oguzoglu" was right in some sense with his idea's of modern kurds.






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  Quote Indiana Jones Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2005 at 15:29
Well, it is a major historical and political issue. The Kurds in eastern Turkey have been mistreated and rather harshly I might add for a long time. I may be new to the boards, but is there an area of time I should not go into? Perhaps I should not speak of the 20th and 19th centuries if it helps to avoid all mention of politics?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2005 at 15:58

An lots of people who call themselves "Kurds" today are converted or not converted Armenians and the mixture of Turkmens, Kurds and some Assyrians.

They have very different dialects that these are like different languages of the same group. For example, Zazaki, Gurani, Dilmiki are very different than Kirmanci and Sorani and the rest of others.

Some call themseves "Kizilbash" and some call themselves "Karabash". These werent ethnic names, but just religious/sect names. So these names were also used for the bigger Alevi Turkmen societies. In hostory, because of the religious authority race btw Shia Safavids and Sunnite Ottomans, these Anatolian Alevis were oppressed, and some immigrated, some exiled to Safavid Empire. Then, some of them returned and all of those people who were from different ethnicities but belonged the same sects called themselves in common names. Today, these names are considered as Kurdish, altough the Kurds didnt have any ethnical or national dintity until some foregin powers' policies forced them to create an artificial one.



Edited by Oguzoglu
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