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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Do you agree or disagree?
    Posted: 19-Jul-2014 at 02:37
I have just finished a book which was about Balkans' history. 


and I want to ask you something.

Do you agree or disagree about this statement ?

"Muslims can kill each other also Christians can kill Muslims. It is bad thing but even Christians can kill each other too but when Muslims kill Christains, that means we are facing a massacre."

It was something like that  and If I don't remember wrong, it was said by Edith Durham

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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2014 at 02:55
Why?What does it points toward it?What is the measure of massacre index Olios?!?
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2014 at 04:11
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2014 at 12:18
I don't think that I understood relation of these and my point.

My point is such as this

"Some of the first Greek actions were taken against unarmed Ottoman settlements, with about 40% of Turkish and Albanian Muslim residents of the Peloponnese killed outright, and the rest fleeing the area or being deported"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Greece

Do you guys know something about Turk Genocide in Peloponnese? I don't think so. The idea is about ignoring Muslim casualties during the last period of Ottoman Empire and focusing on Christian brotherhood casualities

Actually I hate the word genocide, that time was like ethnic civil war even Bulgarian and Greeks killed or try to assimilated each other
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2014 at 13:23
Originally posted by Ollios

I have just finished a book which was about Balkans' history. 


and I want to ask you something.

Do you agree or disagree about this statement ?

"Muslims can kill each other also Christians can kill Muslims. It is bad thing but even Christians can kill each other too but when Muslims kill Christains, that means we are facing a massacre."

It was something like that  and If I don't remember wrong, it was said by Edith Durham



First, you need to post the exact quote; then, perhaps, others can comment.
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2014 at 23:57
Originally posted by Ollios

I have just finished a book which was about Balkans' history.  Do you agree or disagree about this statement ?"Muslims can kill each other also Christians can kill Muslims. It is bad thing but even Christians can kill each other too but when Muslims kill Christains, that means we are facing a <span id="result_" ="short_text" lang="en"><span ="hps">massacre.</span></span>"It was something like that  and If I don't remember wrong, it was said by Edith Durham


Well, Edith Durham lived 1863-1944, about half a century before the modern cultural sensibilities, if she thought so we have to allow her margin for the prejudices of the time. he wasn't even a historian, btw, and the idea of genocide came probably after her time, so I don't think we can't hold her accountable for supposedly ignoring genocide against Muslims.

I will ask you to post the exact quote, with the page, year of publication, and a publisher. If you read the book in Turkish, you have to find an authorized edition in English, because during a translation the meaning of the phrase may have been changed in one or another direction. If the book was written by a Turkish writer and is not translated in English, then you have to find the book by Durham from which the said quote is found /it should be in the "Literature" section on the back of the book/, find an English edition of it, and quote it from there, with page, year and publisher.



Edited by Don Quixote - 20-Jul-2014 at 00:23
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  Quote Don Quixote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2014 at 00:15
Originally posted by Ollios

I don't think that I understood relation of these and my point.My point is such as this"Some of the first Greek actions were taken against unarmed Ottoman
settlements, with about 40% of Turkish and Albanian Muslim residents of
the Peloponnese killed outright, and the rest fleeing the area or being
deported"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_GreeceDo you guys know something about Turk Genocide in Peloponnese? I don't think so. The idea is about ignoring Muslim casualties during the last period of Ottoman Empire and focusing on Christian brotherhood casualitiesActually I hate the word genocide, that time was like ethnic civil war even Bulgarian and Greeks killed or try to assimilated each other




Anyway, genocides are not supposed to happen, no matter against who, and cannot be justified, nor they can be denied. I would think Turkey has to first admit the genocide it itself committed, before insisting that other countries have to admit any genocide against Turks.
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2014 at 00:26
Originally posted by Don Quixote

 
Well, Edith Durham lived 1863-1944, about half a century before the modern cultural sensibilities, if she thought so we have to allow her margin for the prejudices of the time.


No, actually she was in front of her age, she was criticize the West

Originally posted by Don Quixote

 
I will ask you to post the exact quote, with the page, year of publication, and a publisher. If you read the book in Turkish, you have to find a publication in English, because during a translation the meaning of the phrase may have been changed in one or another direction.


But you are true guys, a translator have already translated her words to Turkish and now I am trying translate them to in English with awful English LOL

here is the engish version,

"When a Muslim kills a Muslim it does not count. When a Christian kills a Muslim it is a righteous act; when a Chrisitan kills a Christian it is an error of judgement better not talked about; it is only when a Muslim kills a Christian that we arrive at full-blown atrocity "


http://books.google.com.tr/books?id=3PsLXeDflfMC&pg=PA387&dq=balkans+%22mark+mazower%22+edith+durham&hl=tr&sa=X&ei=DUHLU4qNKsG9ygPMioKgAw&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=balkans%20%22mark%20mazower%22%20edith%20durham&f=false


Edited by Ollios - 20-Jul-2014 at 00:26
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2014 at 00:48
Originally posted by Don Quixote


Anyway, genocides are not supposed to happen, no matter against who, and cannot be justified, nor they can be denied. I would think Turkey has to first admit the genocide it itself committed, before insisting that other countries have to admit any genocide against Turks.


The position of Israel is clear. Commemoration of these thinks, don't make the country more respectful against the human right. Actually it is turning a national masturbation tool and of course there are too much just romantic national crabs in these perspectives.

Example;
In those perspective one side is always rightful but helpless, other side is  true shape of pure evil such as this photo. Barbaric, bad savageries were sent to more West by good modern Americans




 
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2014 at 01:02
Originally posted by Don Quixote

Originally posted by Ollios

I have just finished a book which was about Balkans' history.  Do you agree or disagree about this statement ?"Muslims can kill each other also Christians can kill Muslims. It is bad thing but even Christians can kill each other too but when Muslims kill Christains, that means we are facing a <span id="result_" ="short_text" lang="en"><span ="hps">massacre.</span></span>"It was something like that  and If I don't remember wrong, it was said by Edith Durham


Well, Edith Durham lived 1863-1944, about half a century before the modern cultural sensibilities, if she thought so we have to allow her margin for the prejudices of the time. he wasn't even a historian, btw, and the idea of genocide came probably after her time, so I don't think we can't hold her accountable for supposedly ignoring genocide against Muslims.

I will ask you to post the exact quote, with the page, year of publication, and a publisher. If you read the book in Turkish, you have to find an authorized edition in English, because during a translation the meaning of the phrase may have been changed in one or another direction. If the book was written by a Turkish writer and is not translated in English, then you have to find the book by Durham from which the said quote is found /it should be in the "Literature" section on the back of the book/, find an English edition of it, and quote it from there, with page, year and publisher.

 
 
Well stated DQ.  Cultural changes are, interestingly enough, greater after a war.  WWI triggered cultural spasms in the US.
 
 
 
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2014 at 11:50
Originally posted by Ollios

[QUOTE=Don Quixote] 


"When a Muslim kills a Muslim it does not count. When a Christian kills a Muslim it is a righteous act; when a Chrisitan kills a Christian it is an error of judgement better not talked about; it is only when a Muslim kills a Christian that we arrive at full-blown atrocity.



In the context of what you have posted and said about her this is only her viewpoint and no one else's, not substantiated in any fashion.  Furthermore, it appears to be her opinion on what the Western attitude is, and her opinion is, by your own statements, entirely biased to begin with.  The Muslim attitudes of the times were, for example, that killing a Christian was a holy act, and that being killed by a Christian was the atrocity.

Therefore, I totally disagree with the author's viewpoint as you have presented it.



Edited by Mountain Man - 20-Jul-2014 at 11:51
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2014 at 13:51
nothing to worry about. she was nothing more than an 19th ce. example of a self proclaimed; and then recognized champion of a select group, in this case Albanians, at odds with their government ie. anti serbian.

and that should sound familiar. we still got them running around today in one form or another.

now everyone take a pain pill and be friends.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2014 at 22:09
Originally posted by Ollios

I have just finished a book which was about Balkans' history. 

and I want to ask you something.

Do you agree or disagree about this statement ?

"Muslims can kill each other also Christians can kill Muslims. It is bad thing but even Christians can kill each other too but when Muslims kill Christians, that means we are facing a massacre."

It was something like that  and If I don't remember wrong, it was said by Edith Durham 

A very insightful observation by Edith Durham, Ollios, and delivered with the wit, and sarcasm famed by the likes of the eighteenth century French philosopher, writer, and historian, Voltaire. It was a critique of western attitudes towards the Balkans, nothing more, nothing less. This was no statement to be attacked as a commentary by Edith Durham on the peoples of the Balkans, for this is not what it is. It is also not something to be explained away by suggesting her words are from a bygone era, as it could be argued she was before her time with such a modern sensibilities.
 


What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2014 at 09:32
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising


A very insightful observation by Edith Durham, Ollios, and delivered with the wit, and sarcasm famed by the likes of the eighteenth century French philosopher, writer, and historian, Voltaire. It was a critique of western attitudes towards the Balkans, nothing more, nothing less. This was no statement to be attacked as a commentary by Edith Durham on the peoples of the Balkans, for this is not what it is. It is also not something to be explained away by suggesting her words are from a bygone era, as it could be argued she was before her time with such a modern sensibilities.


And yet she obviously knew nothing whatsoever about the Muslim attitude towards the rest of the world.  I see no "insight" in that, merely a profound ignorance masquerading as such.

"Modern sensibilities"?  No...just another apologist.  More like Obama and Kerry than Voltaire.


Edited by Mountain Man - 22-Jul-2014 at 09:35
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2014 at 10:33
Originally posted by Mountain Man

And yet she obviously knew nothing whatsoever about the Muslim attitude towards the rest of the world.  I see no "insight" in that, merely a profound ignorance masquerading as such. 

"Modern sensibilities"?  No...just another apologist.  More like Obama and Kerry than Voltaire.
Mmmmm, an interesting claim, Mountain Man, and one I'm sure you're not stupid enough to have made without evidence to back it up, am I right? I look forward to you bringing it forth.  

Edited by TheAlaniDragonRising - 22-Jul-2014 at 10:34
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2014 at 14:36
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising



Originally posted by Mountain Man

<span style="line-height: 1.4;">And yet she obviously knew nothing whatsoever about the Muslim attitude towards the rest of the world.  I see no "insight" in that, merely a profound ignorance masquerading as such. </span>
"Modern sensibilities"?  No...just another apologist.  More like Obama and Kerry than Voltaire.

Mmmmm, an interesting claim, Mountain Man, and one I'm sure you're not stupid enough to have made without evidence to back it up, am I right? I look forward to you bringing it forth.<span style="line-height: 1.4;">  </span>


Interesting rejoinder there Alani. otoh. evidence under the law, as defined, is not necessarily required of opinions in of a general nature. And when it is, it then must meet the parameters and criterion set forth in statute code. in this case:

Rule 702. Testimony by Expert Witnesses

or

Rule 701. Opinion Testimony by Lay Witnesses

In either case MM's comments can be confirmed as being in compliance by either.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_evidence

http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_701

http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_702



Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 22-Jul-2014 at 14:38
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2014 at 18:41
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Interesting rejoinder there Alani. otoh. evidence under the law, as defined, is not necessarily required of opinions in of a general nature. And when it is, it then must meet the parameters and criterion set forth in statute code. in this case:

Rule 702. Testimony by Expert Witnesses

or

Rule 701. Opinion Testimony by Lay Witnesses

In either case MM's comments can be confirmed as being in compliance by either.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_evidence

http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_701

http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_702

As the comment given didn't describe what it was based on, CV, how would we know it complies to anything but conjecture? That being the case, at this point, CV, so follows your defence of it. Smile
Btw, CV, best if you read through those links again, as at least one of the pretty well undermines what you were trying to achieve anyhow. Smile


Edited by TheAlaniDragonRising - 22-Jul-2014 at 18:44
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2014 at 18:51
Nonsense Alani old son...conjecture is clearly defined as an unproven proposition. It is clear that he is neither making one in the scientific for or other. But indeed rendering an opinion..in the form of a declaratory statement.

Hence Rule 701 and or 02 applies which validates the credibility of the position.

Now I'm overdue for meds and beds. I must adieu.
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2014 at 19:54
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Nonsense Alani old son...conjecture is clearly defined as an unproven proposition. It is clear that he is neither making one in the scientific for or other. But indeed rendering an opinion..in the form of a declaratory statement.

Hence Rule 701 and or 02 applies which validates the credibility of the position.

Now I'm overdue for meds and beds. I must adieu.

Indeed, CV, and how could it be anything but conjecture. What do we have that says otherwise? What's more, CV, as someone who has shown support for MM in this matter, had there been anything whatsoever on this thread that could have cleared up what the opinion was specifically about, you would have been all over it like a rash, to back it as the type of opinion you were trying to say that it was, but you haven't. Clearly you've not seen any, hence the only conclusion open to us, it is conjecture. Smile

Hope your rest was peaceful.
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2014 at 14:13
No it's note. But we will call it a draw and let him opine if he feels a further need.

Best on ya.
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