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Possible Kurdistan

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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Possible Kurdistan
    Posted: 21-Jun-2014 at 02:52
Firstly, let's get to know something about them.

History

As Assyrians see themselves as grandchildren of ancient Assyrian
As Armenian see themselves as grandchildren of ancient Urartu people

Kurd(at least Kurds in Turkey) see themselves as grandchildren of ancient Mitanni people

You can check all three region in this map


Then according to Kurd source their history was continuing with Cordene(Hellenistic-Roman Period)


then historical mediveal Kurdish states

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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2014 at 16:28

I have just forgotten, Medes Empire is also for Kurds

and we finished history part


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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2014 at 14:26
Culturally Kurds are certainly an Iranian people but it seems to be possible that they were originally an ancient non-Iranian people who adopted an Iranian culture after Median conquest, like Egyptians who adopted Arabic culture.

An important point is that Kurds migrated or were forced to migrate to some different lands, especially during Safavid-Ottoman era this thing happened several times, for example some millions of them already live in the northeast of Iran, too far from Kurdistan.
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2014 at 18:03
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Culturally Kurds are certainly an Iranian people but it seems to be possible that they were originally an ancient non-Iranian people who adopted an Iranian culture after Median conquest, like Egyptians who adopted Arabic culture.


Very good analysis. What do people in Iran think about Medes and Kurds?

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


An important point is that Kurds migrated or were forced to migrate to some different lands, especially during Safavid-Ottoman era this thing happened several times, for example some millions of them already live in the northeast of Iran, too far from Kurdistan.


Good point. Even Non-Ottoman Turks faced these policy as my ancestry.

I want to ask something. How many Kurd live in Iran? and How many in Northeast Iran, How many of them live in West?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is one reality;
"The political events of the last few decades have driven millions of Kurds towards the great metropolitan centres like Istanbul, (3 million Kurds), Ismir, Adana and Mersin, in Turkey; Baghdad, in Iraq; Tehran and Tabriz, in Iran, to such an extent that it is estimated that, today, about a third of the Kurds live outside Kurdistan. "
http://www.institutkurde.org/en/kurdorama/





Edited by Ollios - 28-Jun-2014 at 18:04
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2014 at 22:32
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Culturally Kurds are certainly an Iranian people but it seems to be possible that they were originally an ancient non-Iranian people who adopted an Iranian culture after Median conquest, like Egyptians who adopted Arabic culture.An important point is that Kurds migrated or were forced to migrate to some different lands, especially during Safavid-Ottoman era this thing happened several times, for example some millions of them already live in the northeast of Iran, too far from Kurdistan.



I believe Kurds actually are offshoot of different Iranian groups this evident by the various languages spoken by Kurds. I still believe Lors are the true offshoot of the Mede's where as Kurds are combination of Parthian and Scythian tribes that mixed with the native groups. .

I would also like to mention that Kurds are genetically very close to people of Iran, even Kurds who live in Turkey are genetically closer to a Iranians in Isfahan then they are to Turks or Armenians. My own genetic test showed I was a Kurd with a close tie to Iran like all kurds show.

I believe around 20-30% of Iranians and Kurdish DNA is non middle eastern, it shows it came from Central Asia.

Edited by Ince - 28-Jun-2014 at 22:35
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2014 at 00:46
Originally posted by Ince


I would also like to mention that Kurds are genetically very close to people of Iran, even Kurds who live in Turkey are genetically closer to a Iranians in Isfahan then they are to Turks or Armenians.


http://oi49.tinypic.com/33nwas0.jpg
Yes you right, Kurds have not just linguistic tie with Iranians, they have also genetic ties

Originally posted by Ince


My own genetic test showed I was a Kurd with a close tie to Iran like all kurds show.


Please tell us your genetic story.

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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2014 at 06:35
I had done my DNA test a few years ago with the company 23andme.   What they had test was my Automosal DNA where they test about 1 million SNP's, which they allow you download in a file format. 

There are a few DNA projects on the web that use the that SNP data and try and breakdown your ancestry.  The biggest projects are Dodecad,Eurogenes and Doug Mcdonald.  

The one you posted is called DNAtribes, they are not very well liked as their analyzes is seen as less accurate compared the to the project I had mentioned.  

Doug Mcdonlad is a proffesor in University of illinois and studys Automosal DNA.  What happens is people who test their SNP, send their data to Doug Mcdonald who analyzes and trys to pin point your ancestry.

Doug Mcdonalds page on the University http://www.chemistry.illinois.edu/faculty/Douglas_McDonald.html

Heres my results from Doug Mcdonald


The following are possible population sets and their fractions,

most likely at the top

Iranian= 0.923 Germany= 0.077 or

Iranian= 0.926 Irish= 0.074 or

Iranian= 0.922 English= 0.078 or

Iranian= 0.916 French= 0.084 or

Iranian= 0.928 Poland= 0.072 or

Iranian= 0.913 Hungary= 0.087 or

Iranian= 0.934 Lithuania= 0.066 or

Iranian= 0.895 Romania= 0.105 or

Iranian= 0.927 Belorus= 0.073 or

Iranian= 0.933 Russian= 0.067

Second most likely fit is 100% Mideast (all )


The following are possible population sets and their fractions,

most likely at the top

Iranian= 0.699 Adygei= 0.301 or

Georgian= 0.302 Iranian= 0.698


together amd with the chromosome plot these imply I should do a custom fit

wincluding India and Pakistan and I get



Turkish 0.8081 Brahui 0.1919 or

Turkish 0.8065 Balochi 0.1935 or

Turkish 0.7939 Makrani 0.2061 or

Iranian 0.6386 Turkish 0.3614 or

Romania 0.1232 Iranian 0.8768 or

Germany 0.0834 Iranian 0.9166 or

Belorus 0.0817 Iranian 0.9183 or

Hungary 0.0984 Iranian 0.9016 or

Poland 0.0806 Iranian 0.9194


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He roughly try to guess your anectry and is he was pretty close with mine, I am part Circcasian/Adygei and on his map it shows I pull downs between them and the Iranian cluster.  Turks also show a Eastern shift because of their East Aian ancestry that pulls them east on the map.

Over the years I have looked at Automosal DNA and from what I had learned is that in the Middle-East Kurds and Iranians both have large chunk of ancestry about 20-30% that came from Central Asia.  This large chunk of ancestry is mostly all found in Kurds and Iranians and not in Arabs,Turks,Armenians,Assyrians..ect.  

The only explanation for the anectry is that Iranians tribes that settled in Iran around 1000BC came from the East and the ancient region known as Bactria Margiana Archaeological Complex. It is believed that the Ancient Iranians when making their way from the Pontic Stepps conquered the Bactria Margiana Archaeological Complex and mixed with the people there and later made their way to Iran.   Even before the DNA results, it was already believed that Iranians were in Bactria Margiana Archaeological Complex for sometime before they made their way to Iran.

Also heres a Mcdonald plot for a Kurd from Iraq.



Edited by Ince - 29-Jun-2014 at 06:58
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2014 at 02:47
Originally posted by Ollios


Very good analysis. What do people in Iran think about Medes and Kurds?


Thanks, in the west of Iran where ancient Medes lived, some other Iranian peoples such as Lors, Laks, Bakhtiaris, ... also live, all of them can claim to be descendants of Medes, the problem is that there is not much info about Medes.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


Good point. Even Non-Ottoman Turks faced these policy as my ancestry.

I want to ask something. How many Kurd live in Iran? and How many in Northeast Iran, How many of them live in West?


I think about 7 million Kurds live in Iran, 2 million of them in the east and 5 million in the west, it is important to mention that Kurds of Khorasan (northeast Iran) are mostly Shia but in the Kurdistan of Iran, they are mostly Sunni.
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2014 at 09:39
It looks like Kurds are more closer to independence.  Turkey and Isreal have both voiced their support for Kurds to go independent.  With the large oil reserves in Kurdistan I think Kurds will do okay.  I do not want Kurds in Turkey to join independent Kurdistan as the numbers of Kurds in Turkey are far to large and it better suites them to stay with Turkey. 

Most likely the Islamic leaders of Iran would oppose a Kurdish independence as it would ignite the Kurds of Iran to break free, which i would support as Kurds there would be better of with a independent Kurdistan.
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2014 at 12:37
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


Thanks, in the west of Iran where ancient Medes lived, some other Iranian peoples such as Lors, Laks, Bakhtiaris, ... also live, all of them can claim to be descendants of Medes, the problem is that there is not much info about Medes.


Lors, Laks and Bakhtiaris   Ok I am writing it

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


I think about 7 million Kurds live in Iran, 2 million of them in the east and 5 million in the west, it is important to mention that Kurds of Khorasan (northeast Iran) are mostly Shia but in the Kurdistan of Iran, they are mostly Sunni.


Do they believe like Iranic Shia or Anatolian Shia (Alevi) ? and did they shia before came to Khorasan?

and Sunni Kurds in Iran are Shafi, aren't they?

These things are important. They will decide how much big will be New Kurdistan?

As you see Sorani and Kurmanchi are close and this map call them Kurdish but Zaza and Gorani are more different. Zaza people are also Alevi as Turks in that region


Originally posted by Ince

It looks like Kurds are more closer to independence.  Turkey and Isreal have both voiced their support for Kurds to go independent.  With the large oil reserves in Kurdistan I think Kurds will do okay. 


Yes and that new Kurdistan will need to good access to West and this can be just with Turkey

Originally posted by Ince


I do not want Kurds in Turkey to join independent Kurdistan as the numbers of Kurds in Turkey are far to large and it better suites them to stay with Turkey. 


Can you explain more? for me it is big question; how will Turks and Kurd live together, if Kurds don't have any respect to the flag of Turkey?
http://media.cdn.t24.com.tr/media/topics/cover_bayrak-krizi_797171576.jpg
A kurdish boy is taking the flag of Turkey 
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  Quote Ince Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2014 at 13:21
There are 10-15 million Kurds living in Turkey some percentage of them will have their own beliefs and agendas, but many Kurds are to hard wired into Turkey that seperation will just be bad for them.  I still have a large family of Kurdish Alevis in Turkey and they do not want independece. The conflict between Kurds and Turks has been going on for decades it will take more time for things to calm down.  Life for Kurds in Turkey is better now then it was before and hopefully it will get better for them. 

Like I had mentioned Kurds of Turkey only want to have same rights as anyone else and freedoms that is what it has always been about. If Turkey wants they can give up Kurdish regions and we know that is very unlikely as it will create civil war and many deaths which should not happen. I do not want Kurds of Turkey to fight for independence as it just creat war and chaos and deaths.

Kurds in Iran for example are more oppressed then Kurds of Turkey are now.  Like for example in the article below,  reminds of things that happened to Kurds in Turkey in the past.  But same thing is also happening to other groups in Iran as well. 

http://basnews.com/en/News/Details/Iranian-Kurds-show-support-for-Kurdish-singer/22316

  Group of Iranian Kurds has started a campaign in support of Nazeri

Iranian Kurds show support for Kurdish singer

04.06.2014





BasNews, Erbil
 
Iranian media outlets spoke out against Kurdish singer Shahram Nazeri for singing in the Kurdish language in a concert in the Kurdish city of Kermanshah, Iran. In response, a group of Iranian Kurds has started a campaign in support of Nazeri.
 
The campaign was started under the slogan, “Kermanshah is Kurdistani and the Kurdish language is our identity”. The campaigners started a page on the social media website Facebook, which has received 9,000 likes.
 
One of the campaigning officials said, “We should not let anyone stand against our identity. Throughout our history, we have respected the identity of all nations and neighbors, and we expect the same from them toward us.
 
“We as a Kurdish group of political and civil activists strongly condemn the discrimination from the Iranian media. We are ready to defend our history, culture and nation. Let all the enemies of the Kurds know that we shall not be silent in the face of discrimination against our culture.”
 
Shahram Nazeri is a Kurdish tenor from Kermanshah who sings classical music.

He is an undisputed icon of Kurdish and Persian classical and Sufi music. Born in a Kurdish family, he was the first vocalist to set Rumi’s poetry to Persian music thirty-five years ago, thus establishing a tradition of Sufi music within both classical Persian and Kurdish music. His music was instrumental in introducing Western musical audiences to Sufism and the poetry of Rumi. 



With Kurds of Iran it is a similar story but I fear they will be more willing to fight for independence if Kurds in Iraq go independent.  I doubt that the Iranian leaders will let those regions go without blood shed, which will not be worth thousands of deaths for independence .  I do not want that to happen.

As for Gorani and Zaza they are Kurds and their languages is considered Kurdish. Sorani and Kurmanji are close but the difference betweem them is like the difference between English and German.  All Goranis consider themselves as Kurdish and so do most Zaza, only a small group of Zaza don't. Also Laks,Feylis,hawramis,Kalhori all Consider them self's Kurdish and not one will say other wise. Kurd has always been a umbrella term for Iranian speaking people in what is Kurdish regions today, in the past Lors were called as Kurds just a few hundred years ago, their language is closer to Persian tho.



Edited by Ince - 01-Jul-2014 at 09:43
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2014 at 13:28
Originally posted by Ince

There are 10-15 million Kurds living in Turkey some percentage of them will have their own beliefs and agendas, but many Kurds are to hard wired into Turkey that seperation will just be bad for them.  I still have a large family of Kurdish Alevis in Turkey and they do not want independece.


as I told before, position of Alevi Kurds and Zaza people (they are alevi too) are different. Such as to Turkic people who live near Blacksea. Being Alevi sometimes their first priority such as some people who use word Muslim as nationality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslims_%28nationality%29

Simply;
Crimea Tatars in Ukraine; they hate Russia
Gagauz in Moldovia; they love Russia

Originally posted by Ince


The conflict between Kurds and Turks has been going on for decades it will take more time for things to calm down.

It is as old as Turkey.

Calming Down? Sample of Spain, UK and Italy show different things.

Originally posted by Ince


Life for Kurds in Turkey is better now then it was before and hopefully it will get better for them. 
Like I had mentioned Kurds of Turkey only want to have same rights as anyone else and freedoms that is what it has always been about.


I have nothing to say about what they faced in past. IRA-ETA-HAMAS and PKK are result of facist states.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another information about Kurds in Turkey; children number per a woman

The Kurdish nation has high increasing rate
http://oi59.tinypic.com/24qqq7o.jpg


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