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The World Best Modern Tanks

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  Quote Kids Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The World Best Modern Tanks
    Posted: 17-May-2005 at 03:34
Someone told me the other day that American MIA2 is the top tank of the world.

Personally, I perfer British made Challenger 2 (we Canadians got 200s of them), which has the best armour protection in the world.

But, most critics would agree that German Leopred is the de facto King of Tanks.
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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2005 at 04:03

Originally posted by Kids

Someone told me the other day that American MIA2 is the top tank of the world.

Personally, I perfer British made Challenger 2 (we Canadians got 200s of them), which has the best armour protection in the world.

But, most critics would agree that German Leopred is the de facto King of Tanks.

 

 I think you are confused canada doesn't have Challenger 2 tanks but Leopard C2 tanks.

 Well as for world best tank you better associate the mission of the tank.

Best tank overhall is the Leopard 2. 

Best tank for urban warfare is the M1A2 

Best tanks for mass engagement is the Leclerc, better battlefield awareness and FCS.

 Challenger 2 always comes last in all competition those tanks have been involved.

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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2005 at 04:28
There is a thread on this a few threads down with info.

BEST TANK IN THE WORLD
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  Quote Kids Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2005 at 10:50
"I think you are confused canada doesn't have Challenger 2 tanks but Leopard C2 tanks."

You are right! We dont have Challenger 2, but Leopard C2.

"Challenger 2 always comes last in all competition those tanks have been involved."

Come last? I think Challenger 2 is ranked third after MIA2 and Leopard. Leopard doesnt have any combat experience, whereas both MIA2 and Challenger2 had joined two major battles. Challenger2 shown better protection than that of MIA2 in Iraqi war. And there is no one Challenger2 lost due to the enemy fire, and Challenger has the world most lethal killing range: elimiate an T72 at 4000m
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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2005 at 20:32

Originally posted by Kids

"I think you are confused canada doesn't have Challenger 2 tanks but Leopard C2 tanks."

You are right! We dont have Challenger 2, but Leopard C2.

"Challenger 2 always comes last in all competition those tanks have been involved."

Come last? I think Challenger 2 is ranked third after MIA2 and Leopard. Leopard doesnt have any combat experience, whereas both MIA2 and Challenger2 had joined two major battles. Challenger2 shown better protection than that of MIA2 in Iraqi war. And there is no one Challenger2 lost due to the enemy fire, and Challenger has the world most lethal killing range: elimiate an T72 at 4000m

 

 No Challenger 2 has always ranked behind the Leclerc. Combat experience against junk tanks. Bring your Challenger2 against the Leclerc and we will how it survives during a mass engagement. The challenger 2 has poor battlefield managament and defense suit.  Only problem with the Leclerc the high price, yet it won the competition in UAE.

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  Quote Kids Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2005 at 22:42

"No Challenger 2 has always ranked behind the Leclerc. Combat experience against junk tanks. Bring your Challenger2 against the Leclerc and we will how it survives during a mass engagement. The challenger 2 has poor battlefield managament and defense suit.  Only problem with the Leclerc the high price, yet it won the competition in UAE."

Are you trying to show that French is good at all techonological fields?

First of all, I didnt make any claim that British Challenger 2 is SUPERIOR to French model at any aspect. I only claim that Challenger's strong points.

Second, your claim "Combat experience against junk tanks. Bring your Challenger2 against the Leclerc and we will how it survives during a mass engagement" is simply again baised. You can say that  the French tank has better electronic /info. technology than that of Challenger, which I agree totally  (Leclerc only need 3 people as oppose  to 4 in Challenger 2).
And these three top battle tanks: Leopred 2, MIA2, and Leclerc are very close in overall performace.

Third, during the History Channel's "Heavy Metal: Challenger Tank", both American and British army analyzers and military experts concluded Challenger 2 has the best overall armour protection as well as surviviabilty in the world.

"The Challenger 2 is the best protected tank in NATO (10)"--this meant that its armour protection is superiort to any tanks in EU--http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/chall2.htm

Now, does armour alone makes it THE BEST tank of the world, of course not. It is one of the BEST, not the BEST tank. This is why my topic is "The world best modern tankS" instead of "The world best modern tank".

Fourth, I respect your national pride about your naiton, but unless you provide any valid data to back up your argument. Everything you said is simply void. And this is NOT what I really want in the discussion to degrading as playing rhetoric, since I already has a hack of time as a member of my school's debating team. But, most imporantly, all I want is a good discussion, not hostility.

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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2005 at 00:32

Third, during the History Channel's "Heavy Metal: Challenger Tank", both American and British army analyzers and military experts concluded Challenger 2 has the best overall armour protection as well as surviviabilty in the world.

 And what do you know about the Leclerc armour, it might not be as thick but it is made of a different material and more modern adaption than the C2.  and you telling that I should back my claim, when  you are referring to history channel which is known to have lot of inaccuracies and mostly addresses to the not so intelligent american audience. Oh pity, you talk a lot of smack about backing my claim, yet all that you do is whining about me not backing my arguments with data. Get real the most important facts are classified.


 

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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2005 at 00:34
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl

Third, during the History Channel's "Heavy Metal: Challenger Tank", both American and British army analyzers and military experts concluded Challenger 2 has the best overall armour protection as well as surviviabilty in the world.

 And what do you know about the Leclerc armour, it might not be as thick but it is made of a different material and more modern adaption than the C2.  and you telling that I should back my claim, when  you are referring to history channel which is known to have lot of inaccuracies and mostly addresses to the not so intelligent american audience. Oh pity, you talk a lot of smack about backing my claim, yet all that you do is whining about me not backing my arguments with data. Get real the most important facts are classified.

 

 during the Greek trial, the Challenger 2 came last, while the Leopard 2 win the competition, the M1A2, Leclerc scored very close to the Leo2, while the Challenger 2 was a far away.


 

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  Quote babyblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2005 at 08:34
   it's no secret that Challengers always comes last in NATO tank shoots..
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2005 at 10:13
Challenger 2 MBT

Challenger2

CHALLENGER 2


The Challenger 2 is the first British Army tank since World War II to be designed, developed and produced exclusively by a single prime contractor, Vickers Defence Systems, with set reliability goals laid down in the fixed price contract. Challenger 2 was design and manufactured at both Vickers sites, Barnbow Leeds and Scottswood Newcastle.
The hull and automotive parts of the Challenger 2 are based upon its predecessor Challenger 1, but Challenger 2 incorporates over 150 improvements aimed at increasing reliability and maintainability. The turret of Challenger 2 is a totally new design. Armour is an uprated version of Challenger 1's Chobham armour. The Challenger 2 is the best protected tank in NATO (10) incorporating Chobham second-generation armour plating. Its NBC (nuclear, biological and chemical protection) system is capable of dealing with all known threats and, for the first time in any British tank, the crew compartment has both a heating and a cooling system.

The main armament consists of a Royal Ordnance 120 mm rifled tank gun designated the L30. It also incorporates a McDonnell Douglas Helicopter Systems 7.62 mm chain gun, which is already in service in the British Army, being installed in the GKN Defence Warrior mechanized combat vehicle, and a 7.62 mm anti-aircraft machine gun. The Challenger 2's fire control system is the latest-generation digital computer from Computing Devices Company (CDC) of Canada and is an improved version of that installed in the US M1A1 Abrams tank. It also has growth capacity for future enhancement such as a Battlefield Information Control System and navigation aids. The Challenger 2 carries a crew of 4 and has a combat weight of 62.5 tonnes. It has a maximum road speed of 56 km/h and a range of 250 km cross country and 450 km on the road.

The Challenger 2 (CR2) project includes the development and production of 386 CR2 Main Battle Tanks (MBTs), 22 Driver Training Tanks (DTTs), CHARM 3 ammunition and a full support package including training equipment and initial spares.

Prime Contractor was Vickers Defence Systems plc. Vickers Defence Systems started work on the Challenger 2 in November 1986 as a private venture and shortly afterwards, in March 1987, made its first presentation of the vehicle to the British Ministry of Defence. In February 1988, Vickers submitted a formal proposal regarding the tank to the MOD following the issue of the staff requirement. In December 1988 it was announced that Vickers Defence Systems was to be awarded a 90 million contract to undertake a demonstration phase (also referred to as the proof of principle phase) which lasted until September 1990. Vickers Defence Systems acquisition was completed on 30 September 2002, by Alvis PLC. The operations of Vickers Defence Systems will be merged with those of Alviss existing UK armoured vehicle company, Alvis Vehicles Ltd, in a combined UK business. In order to benefit from the heritage and reputation of both Alvis and Vickers, it has been decided to call the combined UK company Alvis Vickers Limited (Telford, UK). This company was then acquired by BAE Systems, to form BAE Systems Land Systems.

In June 1991 the British Government selected the Challenger 2 and placed an order worth 520 million for 127 Challenger 2 MBTs and 13 driver training tanks. Production began in 1993 and the first vehicles were delivered in July 1994. The Challenger 2 is produced at the Vickers Defence Systems plants in Leeds and Newcastle. There are over 250 subcontractors (both UK and Overseas) involved at some point in the manufacturing process. Among the most significant are: Royal Ordnance (Main and Secondary armaments); Blair Catton (Track); and GEC-Marconi (Gun Control).

The requirement to replace Challenger 1 (CR1) MBT led to the placement of a follow-on order with Vickers Defence Systems. In July 1994, Vickers Defence Systems received a further order from the UK MOD for the supply of 259 Challenger 2 and nine driver training tanks plus training and logistic support. The total value of the contract was 800 million.

The CR2 In-Service Reliability Demonstration (ISRD) milestone was successfully achieved in January 1999. The ISRD took place from September to December 1998 and tested 12 British Army crewed MBTs at the Bovington test tracks and Lulworth Bindon Ranges. The ISRD was a great success in that CR2 not only achieved the targets but exceeded them in all areas set by the Customer's Staff Requirement.

The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards in Germany, the first of six post-SDR Armoured Regiments, started to take delivery of CR2 in January 1998 and received the 38th in time to meet the June 1998 in-service date. Deliveries of CR2 are continuing and it is planned that each of the six Armoured Regiments will be fully equipped with their tanks and associated logistic support package by end of 2000.

The conversion from CR1 to CR2 Regiments is being assisted by a comprehensive suite of training aids, ranging from simple wall charts to highly sophisticated, computer-based gunnery simulators. A range of CR2 training aids and support equipment are also being provided for the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers (REME) to assist the task of fault diagnosis, test, repair, calibration and system performance monitoring.

The Challenger 2 (CR2) project includes the development and production of 386 CR2 Main Battle Tanks (MBTs), 22 Driver Training Tanks (DTTs), CHARM 3 ammunition and a full support package including training equipment and initial spares. Following international competition for a requirement to replace Chieftain MBT, a contract was placed with Vickers Defence Systems in June 1991 and included production of 127 CR2 MBTs and 13 CR2 DTTs. The requirement to replace Challenger 1 (CR1) MBT led to the placement of a follow-on order with Vickers Defence Systems during July 1994 for an additional 259 CR2 MBTs and nine CR2 DTTs.

The CR2 In-Service Reliability Demonstration (ISRD) milestone was successfully achieved in January 1999. The ISRD took place from September to December 1998 and tested 12 British Army crewed MBTs at the Bovington test tracks and Lulworth Bindon Ranges. The ISRD was a great success in that CR2 not only achieved the targets but exceeded them in all areas set by the Customer's Staff Requirement.

The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards in Germany, the first of six post-SDR Armoured Regiments, started to take delivery of CR2 in January 1998 and received the 38th in time to meet the June 1998 in-service date. Deliveries of CR2 are continuing and it is planned that each of the six Armoured Regiments will be fully equipped with their tanks and associated logistic support package by end of 2001.

The conversion from CR1 to CR2 Regiments is being assisted by a comprehensive suite of training aids, ranging from simple wall charts to highly sophisticated, computer-based gunnery simulators. A range of CR2 training aids and support equipment are also being provided for the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers (REME) to assist the task of fault diagnosis, test, repair, calibration and system performance monitoring.

The Challenger 2 has seen operational service in Bosnia and Kosovo. British Army Challenger 2 tanks were deployed on active service in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

General characteristics / technical performance


Engine: Perkins Condor CV12 1200bhp
Gearbox: David Brown TN54 epicyclical, 6 fwd 2 rev
Suspension: Hydrogas variable spring rate
Track: William Cook Defence; hydraulically adjusted double pin
Speed: 59 kph (road); 40 kph (mean cross country)
Main Armament: Royal Ordnance 120mm L30 gun
Ammunition: CHARM 3, HESH and Smoke
Secondary Armament: Hughes 7.62mm coaxially mounted chain gun and 7.62mm loader's hatch mounted GPMG
Smoke Dischargers: Exhaust smoke injection and two sets of five L8 grenade dischargers
Commander: Gyrostabilized fully panoramic site with laser range finder and thermal imager
Gunner: Gyrostabilized primary site with laser range finder and thermal imager, and coaxially mounted auxiliary sight
Driver: Day and night periscopes
Loader: Day periscope

Challenger 2E

Challenger 2E MBT
The Challenger 2E MBT.

Challenger 2E has been specifically designed for demanding environmental and climatic conditions and represents the latest evolution of the highly effective family of Challenger vehicles.

Challenger 2 speeding in the desert
The Challenger 2E speeding on the desert sand. This picture was probably taken in the desert when Vickers Defence Systems was trying to sell it in the Gulf states.

The Challenger at the Gulf War.


An up-armored Challenger 1 of the Royal Hussars, during the Gulf War.

The Vickers Challenger was bought for the British Army after the Shah of Iran was deposed and the order blocked. It was developed from the Chieftain but was much faster, better armed and armoured but suffered from a weak fire control system. The Challenger gave the British Army a state-of-the-art tank ten years before any replacement for the Chieftain was scheduled. The Challenger was made for the desert, but did not have the chance to win its spurs until the Gulf War.

Actually, Vickers did not manufacture all the Challenger 1 MBTs, only the last regiment. Challenger 1 was built at the Royal Ordnance Factory (ROF) Leeds (it became Royal Ordnance in preparation for privatization), which Vickers bought just before the order for the 7th regiment was placed.

Fitted with a 120mm L11 A5 gun, the Challenger's only weakness was its fire-control system, which had been upgraded by the Gulf War. The gun could penetrate 400mm of armour and destroy any Russian-built tank with a single hit. With nearly all of Iraq's' tanks being Russian built, the Challenger was able to deal with them easily. Backed up by the massive air support and alongside the Arab, French and American tanks the Allied armour ripped through the Republican Guard without much trouble. The Challengers in Desert Storm mainly employed HESH (High Explosive Squash Head) shells with their longer range as the Iraqi tanks armour wasn't up to Russian standards and would have been a waste of the shorter-ranged high-density armour-piercing rounds.


TURRET AND HULL


The tank accommodates four members of crew, the commander, gunner, driver and the loader, for increased fightability and effective round-the-clock operation, which is strongly influenced by the number of crew which can be carried. The commander's station is on the right and is equipped with eight periscopes, magnification x 1, which provide 360 degree vision. Pushing a red command button under each periscope causes the turret to slew round to align with the periscope. The gunner is seated in front of and below the commander, and the loader is seated on the left. The loader's station is equipped with a periscope. The driver's compartment is at the front of the tank.


WEAPONS


Challenger2 Firing
The Challenger 2, firing its 120 mm L30 gun, produced by the Royal Ordnance division of British Aerospace Defence Ltd at Nottingham, UK.

Challenger 2 is equipped with an L30, 120 mm rifled tank gun from the Royal Ordnance division of British Aerospace Defence Ltd at Nottingham, UK. The L30 construction incorporates a chromium lining which provides a harder and smoother internal surface. The chromium lining gives increased velocity and therefore penetration power to the round, greater precision and reduced wear on the barrel. The gun is made from electro-sl*g refined steel (ESR) and is insulated with a thermal sleeve. The gun is fitted with a muzzle reference system and fume extraction to remove the gasses from the barrel. The turret is capable of 360 degree rotation and the weapon elevation range is from -10 to +20 degrees.

The target engagement sequence has been designed for simplicity of operation in battlefield conditions. The same engagement sequence is followed for static and moving targets in daylight or by night. The gunner or the commander aligns an aiming mark on the target, presses the laser rangefinder button and then presses the fire button.

The 120 mm L30 gun fires all current 120 mm ammunition. There is capacity for 50 projectiles, which can be a mix of armour piercing fin stabilized discarding sabot (APFSDS), high explosive squash head (HESH) or smoke rounds. The L30 gun can also fire the Depleted Uranium (DU) round with a stick charge propellant. Depleted Uranium has a density approximately two and a half times higher than that of steel and the mass of the DU projectile provides high penetration characteristics. The first depleted uranium round, the L30, is part of the Charm 1 gun, charge and projectile system. A Charm 3 system is under development in which the depleted uranium projectile has a higher length to diameter aspect ratio for increased penetration performance. The ammunition, being of the separate projectile and charge loading type, allows the explosive ammunition to be stowed below the turret ring. Armoured bins provide the stowage for the charges.

The gun control is provided by an all-electric gun control and stabilization system from GEC Marconi Radar and Defence Systems of Leicester, UK. The Challenger 2 is also equipped with a McDonnell Douglas 7.62 mm chain gun, which is located to the left of the main tank gun. The loader seated on the left hand side has a 7.62 mm GPMG anti-air machine gun, type L37A2, mounted on the cupola.

On each side of the front of the turret are five L8 smoke grenade dischargers, from the Helio Mirror Company of Kent, UK. The Challenger 2 can also set a smoke screen by the injection of diesel fuel into the engine exhausts.

The Challenger 2 is equipped with a Military Standard 1553 data bus. The fire control computer is a digital computer from Computing Devices Company of Ontario, Canada. The digital CDC computer has capacity for additional systems, for example a Battlefield Information Control System, and navigation and training systems.


SENSORS


The commander has a Gyrostabilized site, model VS 580-10, from SFIM Industries of France. The upper unit of the VS 580, containing the Gyrostabilized panoramic sight and electronics, is mounted on the turret roof. A neodinium yttrium aluminium garnet, Nd:YAG, laser rangefinder is incorporated into an intermediate assembly which joins the upper unit to a lower telescope assembly inside the turret. The telescope assembly houses the optical viewing system, hand controls, electronics and the sight stabilization system. The sight provides all round vision without the commander having to move his head. The elevation range is plus or minus 35 degrees. The field of view with x 3.2 magnification optics is 16.5 degrees, and with x 10.5 magnification optics, the field of view is 5 degrees.

A thermal imager, the Thermal Observation and Gunnery Sight II, TOGS II, from Pilkington Optronics of Glasgow, UK, provides night vision. The sensor is the UK TICM 2 thermal imager. The imager is mounted inside an armoured barbette above the gun. An on-board compressor and gas bottle pack provide cooling for the imager. Symbols are overlaid on the thermal image to show the aiming marks and system status data. The thermal image, with magnification x 4 and x 11.5 is displayed in the gunner's and commander's sights. The thermal image is also displayed on relaxed-viewing monitors in the commander's and gunner's stations.

The gunner has a stabilized Gunner's Primary Sight, GPS, from Pilkington Optronics of Glasgow, UK. The sight consists of a sight body with a visual sighting channel, a head unit with a stabilized aiming mirror, a 4 Hz neodinium yttrium aluminium garnet Nd:YAG laser rangefinder and a display monitor with a monocular eyepiece. The laser rangefinder with wavelength 1.064 microns, operates over the range 200 meters to 10 kilometers. The range accuracy is plus or minus 5 meters and the discrimination is 30 meters The gunner is also equipped with a reversionary mode telescope, model L30, from Nanoquest, mounted coaxially with the main gun.

The driver is equipped with a Passive Driving Periscope, PDP, from Pilkington Optronics. The periscope uses a night vision image intensifier device. At night the tank is able to achieve speeds comparable to day-time speeds using the passive driving periscope and without the use of artificial light.

The Military Standard 1553 data bus interfaces the Gunner's Primary Sight and the thermal imaging system to the fire control computer.


ENGAGEMENT PROCEDURE


Challenger 2 on the move.
Challenger 2, negotiating rough ground.

The commander aligns the roof mounted panoramic sight on a target and presses the align switch to slew the turret round until the gun is automatically positioned on the target. The gunner then takes over the engagement of the target, and presses the laser rangefinder and the fire buttons to fire the gun. As soon as the gunner has taken over the engagement of the target, the tank commander is able to locate and take range measurement of a second target using the commander's sight. The data for both targets, the first target being engaged by the gunner and the second target, are stored in the digital fire control computer. When the gun has been fired and the kill assessment on the first target completed, the commander presses the align switch which results in the turret slewing round to align the gun on the second target and automatically firing the gun. The operational procedure greatly enhances the firepower of the tank, in that the Challenger can effectively engage targets in rapid succession.


SAFETY


Challenger 2 on unpaved road
The Challenger 2 MBT is one of the heaviest and best protected tanks in the world.

The design of Challenger 2 has given emphasis to crew safety and tank survivability. The turret is protected with second generation Chobham armour which provides increased resistance to penetration by anti-tank weapons. The tank is protected against nuclear, biological and chemical (NBC) warfare by an NBC protection system (with full overpressure filtered air) located in the turret bustle. The electronics systems are protected against nuclear electromagnetic pulse (EMP).

The movement of the turret and gun is by a solid state electric drive rather than by high pressure hydraulic drive. The electric drive removes the risk associated with rupturing of high pressure hydraulic hoses in the crew compartment. The stowage for explosives is below the turret ring which provides a less vulnerable position than in the turret bustle.

The turret and the hull designs incorporate stealth technology to minimize the radar signature.


TRIALS


Challenger 2 has successfully completed trials with the British Army and the Royal Army of Oman. All the performance parameters were demonstrated, including the weapon systems, reliability and survivability. The performance of the Chobham armour was demonstrated in repeated firings trials on the Challenger 2 turret with modern anti-tank weapons. The result of the trial was that the complete turret survived without penetration and the sighting system allowed the gun to be laid and fired.


PROPULSION


Challenger 2 doing some exercise...
The Challenger 2 making its 1,200 HP engine do "some excercise"...

The Challenger 2 has a 12 cylinder 1200 horsepower diesel engine, from Perkins Engines (Shewsbury) Ltd of Shropshire, UK., and a David Brown gearbox, model TN54, with 6 forward and 2 reverse gears. The maximum speed by road is 59 kilometer/hour and mean speed 40 kilometers./hour cross country. The range is given as 450 kilometers. by road and typically 250 kilometers. cross country.


SPECIFICATIONS


Crew Commander, gunner, loader, driver
Weight 62500 kilograms
Hull dimensions approximate length 8.330 meters x width 3.50 meters
approximate length with gun forward, 11.50 meters
approximate height 2.50 meters
Speed 59 kilometers./hour by road
40 kilometers./hour cross country
Range 450 kilometers. by road
250 kilometers. cross country
Armament one 120 mm, model L30 gun
one 7.62 mm Chain Gun
one 7.62 mm, model L37A2 anti-aircraft gun
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
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  Quote aghart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2005 at 18:28

A tank is only as good as it's crew!!  and the French tanks major weakness is it's lack of a 4th crewman.  Auto Loaders are all well and good but a tank crew have a multitude of tasks to do, ( A 4 man crew can put a thrown track back in place and get back in the war)  and a 3 man crew will very quickly lose it's cutting edge.

The theory is that they wont be in action long and replacement crews follow up behind.  Anyone with any military experience will know that once the fighting starts all the pre war theories turn to dust, there is more chance of hell freezing over than fresh replacement crews being at the right place at the right time.  

Former Tank Commander (Chieftain)& remember, Change is inevitable!!! except from vending machines
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  Quote JiNanRen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2005 at 20:23
Any modern MBT is as good as any other, its all depends on the Ammo.
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  Quote Desimir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 14:38
Russian T-90 is a very good tank but it hasn't the equipment(electronics)of western tanks.I suppose that black eagle will be something different.    




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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 02:10

The only (modern) Russian Tank which compares with any western Tank is T-80/84.

As for then Leclerc I think its hunter-killer capability trumps the rest.

 

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  Quote Desimir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 06:48
And Black Eagle is heavy modernized version of T-80.With the big gun it has,it will destroy any western tank.
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  Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 10:54
Aren't the T-95 and the Black Eagle completly disctinct tanks?
Beside, the biggest gun would be the T-95 not the Black Eagle.
But I can agree they would be winning tanks, if they were even produced.


I think the main debate is more what you want to do. The Challenger II is good to control a city with its heavy armor, same with the Abrams. While for tank engagement, the Leclerc and the Leopard 2A6 are certainly better.


A more interesting question would be, what are the place of tanks in the future when most conflicts took part in deserts and savanah where wheeled vehicule have an even better results.

As a reminder, the suspension of a tank breaks quite often, limiting their mobility, while wheeled vehicule don't have this problem and can cross longer distances. Countries that faced this new kind of warfare are giving more importance to wheeled vehicle. South Africa was the first, France and the USA are following. UK and Israel, especially Israel which is always stuck in close conflicts and urban conflicts, retains the tracked concept for most of their forces.


Edited by Exarchus - 16-Sep-2006 at 10:58
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  Quote Desimir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 11:36
T-95 and Black Eagle are completely different tanks.But i didnt know anything about T-95 because nobody know how it looks like and how functional it is,if it really exist.
M1 abrams is one of the brst tanks but i dont think it is the best.Especially when old russian anti tank missiles Maliyutka destroyed several Abrams in Iraq.
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  Quote RACPaul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2012 at 17:07
The only thing french tanks are good for is driving fast in reverse
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2012 at 17:30
Originally posted by RACPaul

The only thing french tanks are good for is driving fast in reverse

LOL
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2012 at 21:36
American Abrams
German Leopard
French LeClerc
British Challenger
Possibly the non-export version of the Russian T-95

Autoloaders slow things down at the wrong times.
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