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rondak46
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Topic: sator Square explanation Posted: 09-Apr-2014 at 19:57 |
I am thinking that the sator square is a marker for a meeting place, office or shop for a guild of Engineers. I am thinking that it translates like this:"keepers of the ancient knowledge of the wheel rights". wheelrights would play a very important part in both the military and civilian life. They would construct and maintain water wheels, siege engines, and cranes or whatever they used to move blocks obelisks and Columns. Many of the Roman sator quares were found in the periphery of the empire, often close to military facilities. Such a guild and trade union would be very important to the army as well as the engineering needs of the cities.
what do you think?
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red clay
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Posted: 10-Apr-2014 at 22:24 |
First off what is a Sator Square? Give us a little background.
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
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rondak46
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Posted: 11-Apr-2014 at 04:26 |
All right. The sator square is a arrangement of five latin words arranged like this:
S A T O R A R E P O T E N E T O P E R A
It is found on inscriptions at archaeological sites, throughout much of the Roman Empire. Notably it was found in Pompeii ( the oldest datable one) Dura europus in Syria and near Carlisle, England near the western end of Hadrians wall. It is a palindrome on steroids and can be read up, down, backwards, left to right. It has been translated in varoius ways and some have argued that it has christian origins.
When I first started reading the the various latin to english translations, given the Proximity of the examples found at the edge of the empire, in far flung places, and given the proximity of the find-places to military bases, I thought that they would likely be related. So as I was trying to translate it, my efforts were informed by that military connection. Therre are plenty of webpages which give translations of the five words of the sator square, but its meaning has been disputed for centuries. Ill note here that the word AREPO is found nowhere else in the latin language. In this context it is often explained as a proper noun, sometimes as a form of a word for " to creep forward", and sometimes as nonsense just to make the palindrome work. I think that most agree that not knowing the meaning of this word does not get in the way of potentially understanding it. Although I haven't been able to find it since, I believe I read that it carries the connotation "old". So I am thinking that it could be the name of a revered or legendary engineer or wheelwright or possibly a legendary inventor of the wheel, who's mythical origins are now lost to us. The rest of my translation, though translation, though necessarily selective, is pretty straight forward.
I have a feeling that it may be a sub cult or associated organization of the mithras cult, but I haven't found enough information to really make this suggestion.
The oldest datable Sator Square can be positively dated to 79AD at the latest, as it was found in the excavations of Pompeii.
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rondak46
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Posted: 11-Apr-2014 at 06:05 |
Red clay, I have been putting together a larger essay on this subject. I tried to PM you but I don't have sufficient permissions, so I am posting this here. I see that the AE magazine is looking for submissions and that you provide some editing services. I would be glad to submit what I have and can put together if you think it worthwhile.
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medenaywe
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Posted: 11-Apr-2014 at 09:07 |
Sator square=Tent square!
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rondak46
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Posted: 13-Apr-2014 at 01:06 |
. I messed-up my stator square above.
S A T O R A R E P O T E N E T O P E R A R O T A S
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Sidney
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Posted: 13-Apr-2014 at 05:44 |
Doesn't it have a Christian meaning?
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rondak46
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Posted: 13-Apr-2014 at 09:23 |
Originally posted by Sidney
Doesn't it have a Christian meaning?
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there a several arguments for a christian connection. My theory doesn't make such a connection.
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medenaywe
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Posted: 13-Apr-2014 at 09:55 |
S A T O R
A R E P O
T E N E T
O P E R A
R O T A S
N-th row left toward right&N-th column down to up are the same word...
There is no Cristian connections inside this puzzle...Possible meaning you have in ORIGINS!!!
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Sidney
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Posted: 13-Apr-2014 at 10:19 |
I've seen it explained as an anagram of Pater Noster (A)lpha O(mega)
It also seems to appear quite frequently as
R O T A S
O P E R A
T E N E T
A R E P O
S A T O R
so which is the 'correct' form?
Edited by Sidney - 14-Apr-2014 at 01:55
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red clay
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Posted: 13-Apr-2014 at 11:50 |
Is there a listing of sites where this is found. There is considerable evidence for a Roman presence in the Americas, dating from the first C, AD, to approx. 800 AD. I was wondering if a sator sq. has been found outside of the greater Roman Empire.
There are also indications of Mithraic beliefs having been held by some group in the Americas, at about the same time period.
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
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rondak46
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Posted: 13-Apr-2014 at 11:58 |
This has a map of find spots. I am trying to find a page with a comprehensive list that I visited recently.
Edited by medenaywe - 13-Apr-2014 at 23:57
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rondak46
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Posted: 13-Apr-2014 at 12:18 |
Originally posted by rondak46
This has a map of find spots. I am trying to find a page with a comprehensive list that I visited recently. http://www.boloji.com/index.cfm?md=Content&sd=Articles&ArticleID=15334
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Trying to fix my post so the link works
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Sidney
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Posted: 14-Apr-2014 at 19:32 |
Looking at this page - http://www.duepassinelmistero.com/Il%20Magico%20quadrato,%20SATOR....htm
it seems that the earliest examples (including the two found at Pompeii) read;
R O T A S
O P E R A
T E N E T
A R E P O
S A T O R
Even sites that claim to be telling you that the square reads SATOR AREPO TENET OPERA ROTAS actually illustrate the article with the 'ROTAS first' square (as above).
Would this reversal in word order alter the translation, and why has the 'SATOR first' version become more popular as the definition/interpretation?
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rondak46
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Posted: 14-Apr-2014 at 21:35 |
Originally posted by Sidney
Would this reversal in word order alter the translation, and why has the 'SATOR first' version become more popular as the definition/interpretation?
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From my "research" I understand that word order does not matter in latin.
Some researchers read it in boustrophedon; alternating left to right then right to left or vise versa
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medenaywe
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Posted: 15-Apr-2014 at 16:19 |
Those are sentences combined in different ways.
SaToROPeRa=Sator Opera=Military-Militant shelter is grown-moved-mobilized by nestable
stone-rocky-founded arm-operation-uplift-sublime.
Military-Militant shelter grows-moves-mobilizes nestable stone-founded arm-operation-uplift-sublime!(Military shelter grows-moves nestable stone arm-uplift-sublime)but:
OPeRaSaToR=Opera Sator=Nestable stone-establishment-foundation is operated by military
sheltered brat-movement-mobilization.
Nestable stone-establishment-foundation operates(with) military sheltered movement-mobilization.
NOTE:You can estimate combinations of different sentences we have above!
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rondak46
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Posted: 15-Apr-2014 at 16:31 |
This, from Wikipedia, is pretty typical of synonymous translations I have seen on the web.
Sator (from sero=to sow) Sower, planter; founder, progenitor (usually divine); Arepo. Originator unknown, likely an invented proper name; its similarity with arrepo, from ad repo, 'I creep towards', may be coincidental Tenet. from teneo=to hold) holds, keeps; comprehends; possesses; masters; preserves(a) Opera. work, care; aid, service, (an) effort/trouble) (I) Rotas. Wheel (not from wikipedia) whirl around, revolve rotate;
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medenaywe
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Posted: 15-Apr-2014 at 16:37 |
You have some possible meanings in Origins of language rondak46 if you need it.Last 2 pages i think!
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medenaywe
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Posted: 21-Apr-2014 at 03:29 |
Is it "Z" or "S" sator-zator?!?
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rondak46
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Posted: 21-Apr-2014 at 05:17 |
For the palindrome to work it would be an S.
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