Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Origins of The Celts
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
toyomotor View Drop Down
Baron
Baron

BANNED TROLL

Joined: 25-Dec-2013
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 387 		  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Origins of The Celts
    Posted: 29-Jan-2014 at 06:20
Originally posted by Diviacus


[QUOTE=toyomotor] The basic definition for "Celts" is those people who speak a Celtic language and participate in the Celtic culture.
More precisely, the usual definition for "Celts" is those people who speak a Celtic language. We don't add "and participate in the Celtic culture" because:
- It's difficult to define a Celtic culture. Cultures are defined by a certain number of elements including language, religion, customs, art, ... Some people (or tribes) have a certain number of these elements but not all. We usually speak of "Celtic cultures" as the Celtiberian culture is different from the culture of the Belgae, Galatians, Helvetii,...
- It's very likely that some people didn't speak a Celtic language, but adopted some elements of Celtic cultures.
/QUOTE]

OK, thanks for that. But by your interpretation, if I learned Irish Gaelic from some language school CDs, you would classify me as Celtic. Surely there must be a following of the culture as well as the language. Those millions of people who speak French all over the world are not all French. Perhaps we must agree to disagree.

Edited by toyomotor - 29-Jan-2014 at 06:26
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Baron
Baron

BANNED TROLL

Joined: 25-Dec-2013
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 387 		  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2014 at 06:30
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

Sorry i am very grumpy/rude alot these last few days. I am worried I may end up getting banned or even appear attacking others as i complained been done to me. (I have a hell situation/condition here and historum posters really got to me.)

Just because it has been abandoned for 30 years doesn't mean its wrong/they are right. I am not yet convinced it is right. Mainstream scholars have abandoned things before and been wrong.

Who are they to declare theirs is history and others fanciful/legends, or what should or shouldn't be taken in to account. I'd rather trust ancient traditions/memories than modern theories. Atlantis has been found its not fanciful/legend. "Nennius" Historia Brittonum/Wonders has been partially proven now. The evidences i posted are facts not fancieful/legends. History must be holistic/multi-disciplinary and consider/synthesise all sources "myths/legends"/bible, linguistics, archaeology, genetics, etc.

don't start the "serious historians" accusation, man i am fed up with the old "serious" "scholars/academics/scientists/experts/professionals" versus supposedly not-serious "woo-woo"/etc always being slung around on "academic" forums (like happened on arthurnet, sussex egyptological society, historum, hall of maat, etc).
"Serious historians" are often wrong (but they play it down) and "non serious" are sometimes right.

---------------

Sorry for my rude Diviacus. Thanks for your reply.

I have casually/quickly gone through the table of 70 nations to try see where celts might come/fit. Looks like mainly Japhethite (Gomer &/or Magog &/or Javan?) : (I know its not very scientific etc, its just quick/casual)

noah (nu(a)da/nudd)?
japheth (capet, bran/frey/priapos/prajapati, dispater, sceaf/seskef)?
gomer (cimmerians , cymry , cimbri , humber , gower)?
magog/gog ("gogmagog" , mac oc, ogma, magus, bojus/boii/bohemian/bavarian)?
madai (mide/meath)?
tiras (tara , trojans/trinovantes , eire, tile)?
tubal (hibernia/tiberius)?
ashkenaz (scots, scyths, histion/isceio)?
riphath (brutus, rhaetian)?
tarshish (tara)?
kittim (celt, cruithne, cassi/catti, scythian)?
dodanim (druid, teutones)?
ham (ogma, camulos, segomo, camboblascon)?
cush (angus, cu, tuscus, tuisco)?
p(h)ut (brutus)?
havilah (helvetii, avalon)?
nimrod (myrddin/merlin, nemed)?
shinar (salisbury plain)?
ludim (london)?
heth (ith)?
amorite (fomor)?
shem (rigisamos, sarmatian, samothean, segomo)?
asshur (sulis, arthur)?
lud (london, lugdus)?
mash (macha, math)
eber (iberian, hibernia, emer)?
hazarmaveth (sarmata/sarmatian , samothea)??

(i have to check my other files for maybe more to add.)


My theory is that the Celts originated in Eastern Europe, maybe even as far as the Caucasus/Pontic Steppe. As I say, it's only a theory but there are cultures in that region, imho, that are similar to that of the Celts, perhaps the Sogdians? What do you think?
Back to Top
Diviacus View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 06-Mar-2011
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 73 		  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2014 at 06:46
Originally posted by toyomotor

 OK, thanks for that. But by your interpretation, if I learned Irish Gaelic from some language school CDs, you would classify me as Celtic. Surely there must be a following of the culture as well as the language. Those millions of people who speak French all over the world are not all French. Perhaps we must agree to disagree.
We don't disagree. It's not my interpretation, it's the use of the present scholarship.
I have more than 120 books on the Celts and I can say that all the present scholars use this definition for the Celts. If we want to speak about the people who have (or had) a Celtic culture we will say "People with a Celtic culture" instead of Celtic people. Its just a definition. It allows to be more precise and to know what we are speaking of.
Back to Top
Diviacus View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 06-Mar-2011
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 73 		  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2014 at 06:53
Originally posted by toyomotor

My theory is that the Celts originated in Eastern Europe, maybe even as far as the Caucasus/Pontic Steppe. As I say, it's only a theory but there are cultures in that region, imho, that are similar to that of the Celts, perhaps the Sogdians? What do you think?
The present scholarship considers that the Celtic languages differenciated from the IE language after these people quitted the Caucasic/Pontic steppe.
In that very east part of the word, the only Celtic people were the Galatians (but they came from Western Europe). The only other people which has been considered as possibly Celtic were the Tocharians (because some clothing discovered in their tombs look like Celtic ones). This theory, popular in the begining of the 20th century, is now abandoned. I only relate the present theories. Everybody is free to have his personal theory Smile
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 937 		  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2014 at 12:29
I don't know enough to offer much (other than the tidbits).
McEvedy has {[mesolithic/western neolithic = mediterraneans/iberians]; Danubian/Starcevo = Indoeuropeans; (western IE = Teutons, Celto-Ligurians, Italics, Illyrians); beaker = Celto-Ligurians/Q-Celtic; Urnfield celts = P-Celtic; hallstatt celts; la tene celts = 2nd p-celt phase.}
I think i read that there where Sumerian links with Danubian (connected with Indoeuropeans by McEvedy) & with Battleaxe (connected with Beakers). (Hallstatt connections with Gezer [Solomon?] in Zehren's book?)
There are some interesting similarities of (UK) Celtic? with Illyrian (gwledig/vladika, etc) and Baltic/Slav (zernebogus, lyada/nuada? etc)?
I had thought that the 4 western IEs was similar to 4 sons of Javan.
The Beakers seem to be about the time of Atlantis versus "Hercules"/Athens?


McEvedy: 1 mesolithic - danubian - western - beaker/battleaxe - 2-5 urnfield - hallstatt/cimmerian/gezer - latene
Jacqueta Hawkes: 1 NSA & 'EBA to MBA' - 2-5 LBA & IA.
Holinshed: 1a Atlas Maurus, 1b giant Albion son of neptune 44 yrs, 1c hercules, 2 danaus, 3/4 brutus, ...;
TravelsNoah/PseudoBerosus/Hoeh: 1 hercules, 2 jasius, 3/4 brutus, ...;
Geoff.ofMon.: 3 trojan, 3/4 brutus/eli/sons Hector/aeneas, maddan/samuel/homer, mempricus*/saul/eurystheus.
Spanish/Hoeh: 1 antaeus, 2 apher, 3 trojan, 4 seapowers/pelasgians, 5 persians ?
Egyptology: 1 moeris/12th dyn, 2 hyksos/avaris/saites/salitis/iannas, ..., 4 seapeoples, 5 persians;
Greek/Aspin: 0ogyges, 1 atlantis/deucalion betw Cecrops-Erechtheus, 2 minoan/theseus, 3 trojan/menestheus, 4 heraclidae/dorians, 5 persians;
Plato: 1 Atlantis/Athens - 1/2 Sais - 5 persians
Bible: 1 exodus/Joshua - 2 judges - 3/4 - 5 persians
Back to Top
beorna View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 03-Dec-2007
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2014 at 15:48
Originally posted by toyomotor

Originally posted by beorna

What is the definition of Celtic?



The basic definition for "Celts" is those people who speak a Celtic language and participate in the Celtic culture. So, originally they may have been predominantly of several tribes, today that is not the case.

Yes, there are linguistical Celts and cultural Celts. But especially the last group is just Celtic by definition. La tene or hallstatt pottery doesn't speak.
But the linguistic definition makes it nearly impossible, that they were from Iberia, especially if they are expected in Britain e.g. 6ky BP like Oppenheimer does. Then they have to be much older in Iberia and have to have differentiate even in very far days. Oppenheimer uses e.g. Renfrew for his theories, but even he makes such theories not really probable.

So Celts seem to come from the east. Gimbutas is still up to date and therefor Celts or their ancestors can't be older than the Corded ware. Historical are the Celts first in Greek and Roman sources. At those days they appear in regions, where archaeologists find the LaTene. So Celts must have evolved somewhen between those dates. Most likely is still a participation in the Latene or the older hallstatt.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Baron
Baron

BANNED TROLL

Joined: 25-Dec-2013
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 387 		  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2014 at 19:49
Originally posted by Diviacus


Originally posted by toyomotor

My theory is that the Celts originated in Eastern Europe, maybe even as far as the Caucasus/Pontic Steppe. As I say, it's only a theory but there are cultures in that region, imho, that are similar to that of the Celts, perhaps the Sogdians? What do you think?

The present scholarship considers that the Celtic languages differenciated from the IE language after these people quitted the Caucasic/Pontic steppe.In that very east part of the word, the only Celtic people were the Galatians (but they came from Western Europe). The only other people which has been considered as possibly Celtic were the Tocharians (because some clothing discovered in their tombs look like Celtic ones). This theory, popular in the begining of the 20th century, is now abandoned. I only relate the present theories. Everybody is free to have his personal theory Smile


Yes, I agree. It will no doubt be interesting as scientific research progresses, to have a definite answer.
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Baron
Baron

BANNED TROLL

Joined: 25-Dec-2013
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 387 		  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2014 at 19:51
Originally posted by beorna


Originally posted by toyomotor

Originally posted by beorna

What is the definition of Celtic?



The basic definition for "Celts" is those people who speak a Celtic language and participate in the Celtic culture. So, originally they may have been predominantly of several tribes, today that is not the case.
Yes, there are linguistical Celts and cultural Celts. But especially the last group is just Celtic by definition. La tene or hallstatt pottery doesn't speak.But the linguistic definition makes it nearly impossible, that they were from Iberia, especially if they are expected in Britain e.g. 6ky BP like Oppenheimer does. Then they have to be much older in Iberia and have to have differentiate even in very far days. Oppenheimer uses e.g. Renfrew for his theories, but even he makes such theories not really probable.So Celts seem to come from the east. Gimbutas is still up to date and therefor Celts or their ancestors can't be older than the Corded ware. Historical are the Celts first in Greek and Roman sources. At those days they appear in regions, where archaeologists find the LaTene. So Celts must have evolved somewhen between those dates. Most likely is still a participation in the Latene or the older hallstatt.


Thanks for your contribution. I can see that there will be debate for years to come, but as I said, my "theory" is that the Celts were from Eastern Europe as they were nothing like the Iberians.
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4620 		  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jan-2014 at 22:49
Actually if one assumes the Spanish invasion of the Isles, was mistakenly sent back into the distant past, that the survivors/invaders of the British Isles landed upon the Isle of Ireland, and started a new civilization? Who knows? Note that this is not suggested by any revisionist person but myself!

Regards, Ron
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Baron
Baron

BANNED TROLL

Joined: 25-Dec-2013
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 387 		  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2014 at 01:14
Originally posted by opuslola

Actually if one assumes the Spanish invasion of the Isles, was mistakenly sent back into the distant past, that the survivors/invaders of the British Isles landed upon the Isle of Ireland, and started a new civilization? Who knows? Note that this is not suggested by any revisionist person but myself!

Regards, Ron



WEll Ron, as you know, the Irish Leabhar Gabhála Éireann claims that Miletius or Mil Espanas sons invaded Ireland, conquered it and divided it between them. Miletius is mentioned in several old texts from around the time of Ptolemy II, and it's believed that he was in the pay of the Spanish at the time. But the Leabhar Gabhala Eirean has been discredited by most experts as myth. I tend to agree, nothwithstanding that some parts are very credible, while others are pure fantasy, the Tuatha Denanan for example. (Did I spell that correctly?)
Back to Top
beorna View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 03-Dec-2007
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2014 at 02:45
Originally posted by toyomotor


Thanks for your contribution. I can see that there will be debate for years to come, but as I said, my "theory" is that the Celts were from Eastern Europe as they were nothing like the Iberians.

There is as well no evidence for a Celtic descendence from Eastern Europe, indeed LaTene findings in the east are late and rare, even in eastern Middle europe are they late. So in the end we are back inside the Urnfield culture and that seems to be the place where the first groups started to become Celtic during the Hallstatt, exactly the western Hallstatt.
Back to Top
Diviacus View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 06-Mar-2011
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 73 		  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2014 at 04:39
Originally posted by beorna

 There is as well no evidence for a Celtic descendence from Eastern Europe, indeed LaTene findings in the east are late and rare, even in eastern Middle europe are they late. So in the end we are back inside the Urnfield culture and that seems to be the place where the first groups started to become Celtic during the Hallstatt, exactly the western Hallstatt.
You know that all present scholars have abandoned this theory!Smile
Back to Top
beorna View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 03-Dec-2007
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2014 at 04:59
Originally posted by Diviacus

Originally posted by beorna

 There is as well no evidence for a Celtic descendence from Eastern Europe, indeed LaTene findings in the east are late and rare, even in eastern Middle europe are they late. So in the end we are back inside the Urnfield culture and that seems to be the place where the first groups started to become Celtic during the Hallstatt, exactly the western Hallstatt.
You know that all present scholars have abandoned this theory!Smile

Cunliffe, Koch and some others are for sure not "all present scholars". It is still a minority view.
Back to Top
Diviacus View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 06-Mar-2011
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 73 		  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2014 at 05:30
Originally posted by beorna

Originally posted by Diviacus

Originally posted by beorna

 There is as well no evidence for a Celtic descendence from Eastern Europe, indeed LaTene findings in the east are late and rare, even in eastern Middle europe are they late. So in the end we are back inside the Urnfield culture and that seems to be the place where the first groups started to become Celtic during the Hallstatt, exactly the western Hallstatt.
You know that all present scholars have abandoned this theory!Smile

Cunliffe, Koch and some others are for sure not "all present scholars". It is still a minority view.
We had this discussion 2 years ago. I have provided a list of spresebt scholars who say they abandoned this model. You have not been able to provide one presenr scholar's name who support this old theory.
Here is a list of some of the present scholars that have clearly abandoned the Hallstatt – La Tène (HLT) model :

Miklos SZABO
Sabine RIECKHOFF (2006): 
It is astounding to see that the J.Dechelette hypothesis remains to the present day the main base of all maps, on which the Celts expand in all the directions from a so-called original land.

Stephen OPPENHEIMER (2010):
The current orthodox view of the origin of the Celts is one of the remaining myths left over from the 19th century.

Ludwig PAULI
Daniele VITALI (2006): 
The migrationist models that have been in use to solve the Celts presence in Iberia have been abandoned.

John KOCH
John COLIS (2003):
So why did the Celts have to arrive sometime in the Iron Age? Part of this was due to the concept of the so-called Hallstatt and La Tène cultures, and in 1986 I brought together examples in my paper “Adieu La Tene” and “Adieu Hallstatt” showing how at various times and places the archaeological record had been grossly misinterpreted to fit the preconceived interpretation.

Brian RAFTERY
Barry CUNLIFFE (2010):
A traditional belief, still widely held, is that the Celts originated somewhere in western central Europe, to the north of the Alps, and from there, in a succession of movements over many centuries, spread westwards into Iberia, Britain, ….The time is now right for a new model of “Celtic origins” to be offered. 

Patrice BRUN
Pierre Yves MILCENT (2006): 
The latenian core and the hypothesis of a cultural or ethnic centrifuge model have never existed, if not in the mind of many searchers since the 19th century.

Venceslas KRUTA (2006): 
The initial core of the Celts was up to the present day identified as the Hallstatt culture. We must fundamentally change our ideas on the origin and expansion of the Celts.

Matthieu POUX
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Baron
Baron

BANNED TROLL

Joined: 25-Dec-2013
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 387 		  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2014 at 06:11
Originally posted by Diviacus


Originally posted by beorna


Originally posted by Diviacus


Originally posted by beorna

 There is as well no evidence for a Celtic descendence from Eastern Europe, indeed LaTene findings in the east are late and rare, even in eastern Middle europe are they late. So in the end we are back inside the Urnfield culture and that seems to be the place where the first groups started to become Celtic during the Hallstatt, exactly the western Hallstatt.
You know that all present scholars have abandoned this theory!Smile
Cunliffe, Koch and some others are for sure not "all present scholars". It is still a minority view.
We had this discussion 2 years ago. I have provided a list of spresebt scholars who say they abandoned this model. You have not been able to provide one presenr scholar's name who support this old theory.
<span style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;">Here is a list of some of the present scholars that have clearly abandoned the Hallstatt – La Tène (HLT) model :</span><br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><span style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;">Miklos SZABO</span><br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><span style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;">Sabine RIECKHOFF (2006): </span><br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><i style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;">It is astounding to see that the J.Dechelette hypothesis remains to the present day the main base of all maps, on which the Celts expand in all the directions from a so-called original land.<br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><span style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;">Stephen OPPENHEIMER (2010):</span><br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><i style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;">The current orthodox view of the origin of the Celts is one of the remaining myths left over from the 19th century.<br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><span style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;">Ludwig PAULI</span><br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><span style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;">Daniele VITALI (2006): </span><br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><i style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;">The migrationist models that have been in use to solve the Celts presence in Iberia have been abandoned.<br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><span style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;">John KOCH</span><br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><span style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;">John COLIS (2003):</span><br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><i style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;">So why did the Celts have to arrive sometime in the Iron Age? Part of this was due to the concept of the so-called Hallstatt and La Tène cultures, and in 1986 I brought together examples in my paper “Adieu La Tene” and “Adieu Hallstatt” showing how at various times and places the archaeological record had been grossly misinterpreted to fit the preconceived interpretation.<br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><span style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;">Brian RAFTERY</span><br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><span style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;">Barry CUNLIFFE (2010):</span><br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><i style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;">A traditional belief, still widely held, is that the Celts originated somewhere in western central Europe, to the north of the Alps, and from there, in a succession of movements over many centuries, spread westwards into Iberia, Britain, ….The time is now right for a new model of “Celtic origins” to be offered. <br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><span style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;">Patrice BRUN</span><br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><span style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;">Pierre Yves MILCENT (2006): </span><br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><i style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;">The latenian core and the hypothesis of a cultural or ethnic centrifuge model have never existed, if not in the mind of many searchers since the 19th century.<br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><span style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;">Venceslas KRUTA (2006): </span><br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><i style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;">The initial core of the Celts was up to the present day identified as the Hallstatt culture. We must fundamentally change our ideas on the origin and expansion of the Celts.<br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><br style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;"><span style="color: rgb255, 255, 255; font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 17.333332061767578px; : rgb51, 68, 80;">Matthieu POUX</span>



Thanks once again. I agree with your post and the references that you have provided. The Iberian origins of the Celts theory is, in my opinion, past its use by date, and it's apparent that some other experts share the same view. Has anyone provided and credible evidence of Eastern European origins?
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 937 		  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2014 at 06:56
Personally i think celtic mythology is one of the keys.

this is interesting though unlikely to be any connection:
- Khalitu (to west of Urartians)/Xalitu (Urartians country, foreign/Urartian, cuneiform, Rusa 2, 676 BC).
- Khalita (province Assyrian/Mari).
Back to Top
beorna View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 03-Dec-2007
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2014 at 08:42
Originally posted by Diviacus

Originally posted by beorna

Originally posted by Diviacus

Originally posted by beorna

 There is as well no evidence for a Celtic descendence from Eastern Europe, indeed LaTene findings in the east are late and rare, even in eastern Middle europe are they late. So in the end we are back inside the Urnfield culture and that seems to be the place where the first groups started to become Celtic during the Hallstatt, exactly the western Hallstatt.
You know that all present scholars have abandoned this theory!Smile

Cunliffe, Koch and some others are for sure not "all present scholars". It is still a minority view.
We had this discussion 2 years ago. I have provided a list of spresebt scholars who say they abandoned this model. You have not been able to provide one presenr scholar's name who support this old theory.
Here is a list of some of the present scholars that have clearly abandoned the Hallstatt – La Tène (HLT) model :

Miklos SZABO
Sabine RIECKHOFF (2006): 
It is astounding to see that the J.Dechelette hypothesis remains to the present day the main base of all maps, on which the Celts expand in all the directions from a so-called original land.

Stephen OPPENHEIMER (2010):
The current orthodox view of the origin of the Celts is one of the remaining myths left over from the 19th century.

Ludwig PAULI
Daniele VITALI (2006): 
The migrationist models that have been in use to solve the Celts presence in Iberia have been abandoned.

John KOCH
John COLIS (2003):
So why did the Celts have to arrive sometime in the Iron Age? Part of this was due to the concept of the so-called Hallstatt and La Tène cultures, and in 1986 I brought together examples in my paper “Adieu La Tene” and “Adieu Hallstatt” showing how at various times and places the archaeological record had been grossly misinterpreted to fit the preconceived interpretation.

Brian RAFTERY
Barry CUNLIFFE (2010):
A traditional belief, still widely held, is that the Celts originated somewhere in western central Europe, to the north of the Alps, and from there, in a succession of movements over many centuries, spread westwards into Iberia, Britain, ….The time is now right for a new model of “Celtic origins” to be offered. 

Patrice BRUN
Pierre Yves MILCENT (2006): 
The latenian core and the hypothesis of a cultural or ethnic centrifuge model have never existed, if not in the mind of many searchers since the 19th century.

Venceslas KRUTA (2006): 
The initial core of the Celts was up to the present day identified as the Hallstatt culture. We must fundamentally change our ideas on the origin and expansion of the Celts.

Matthieu POUX

Pardon, but first you do not impress me with an argumentum ad verecundiam and second, that the old modell of a Hallstatt or laTene origin is doubted by several authors does not automatically mean, that they prefer your hypothesis. Indeed, what these scientists above mainly question is, that a celtic migration out of the hallstatt or the Latene caused the spreading of celtic culture. I have shown in several threads the problem that exist, if we take the hallstatt or the LaTene as celtic. I therefor talked about the problems of q-celtic groups, about Celtiberians as well. In a discussion about all these problems the Hallstatt and Latene hypothesis cannot explain these problems, so to question these hypothesis is not wrong. Wrong is, to replace it by a less probable hypothesis. And this leads me to thirdly, do you really want to tell me, that all your scientists above support the atlantic or iberian hypotheisis of Oppenheimer and Cunliffe? Sorry, but this is dishonest.
The problem with your hypothesis is simply the fact, that it is quite impossible for you to explain the origin of an indo-european language in Iberia. If there is no indo-european in Iberia, there is no chance for a linguistical group called Celts there.
Back to Top
Diviacus View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 06-Mar-2011
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 73 		  Quote Diviacus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2014 at 09:28
I said it several times, but I still repeat that I don't have any theory.
I repeat also that I don't support the Atlantic hypothesis. See my post dated 28-01-14 :
"No, only some people believe it (mainly J.Koch and B.Cunliffe). This hypothesis is marginal among present scholars"
I don't know why you believe I support this theory!
The only fact I repeat again and again is that present scholars no longer support the Hallstatt- La Tene model and I prove it by giving their names.
The other fact I repeat is that there is today no consensus on another model.

Read again my posts on this forum and on the other one you know, and you will see that I have never changed my mind because the facts are there.
Back to Top
beorna View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 03-Dec-2007
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2014 at 09:34
Originally posted by Diviacus

I said it several times, but I still repeat that I don't have any theory.
I repeat also that I don't support the Atlantic hypothesis. See my post dated 28-01-14 :
"No, only some people believe it (mainly J.Koch and B.Cunliffe). This hypothesis is marginal among present scholars"
I don't know why you believe I support this theory!
The only fact I repeat again and again is that present scholars no longer support the Hallstatt- La Tene model and I prove it by giving their names.
The other fact I repeat is that there is today no consensus on another model.

Read again my posts on this forum and on the other one you know, and you will see that I have never changed my mind because the facts are there.

Then I beg your pardon. i was under the impression you'd prefer the Atlantic theory. But then I'd like to hear your ideas who could be right. To have no theory is not enough.
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 937 		  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2014 at 12:51
I can't get past that on one hand the Celts are definitely indoeuropean, and on other hand there are undeniable Atlantis connections (as i posted a list before and now add another 3 points:
- sky fall on heads = Atlas / world pillar theme;
- timagenes: gauls/invaders from island/land in middle of ocean which sank.
-herodotus said the celts are beyond the pillars of hercules and are the most westerly people of europe (excepting/with the cynesians/cynetes).)

Could (some of) the Celts be (partly) from a combination of 2 peoples that produced a new Celt people/culture?

ps I was thinking what about the tracing the origins of Ogham script, then i had a thought what about the Peteroborough bronze age ogham (& runic) inscriptions in North America (Barry Fell 'Bronze Age America' / 'America BC', J Jewell 'Aryans in the New World')

pps There is also that comparison of "Cernunnos" [on Gundestrup cauldron?] and "Pasupati" [on Indus seal?]

ppps this is very dubious but interesting: possible Phoenician origins:
www.jrbooksonline.com/pob/pob_ch07.html‎
kreti/cherethites & pleti/pelethites (biblical) ~ celts/cruithne & britons??


Edited by Arthur-Robin - 31-Jan-2014 at 00:15
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.