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Quran down the toilet a fake report |
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Murtaza 
General 
Joined: 03-Jun-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 804 |
 Quote Reply
 Topic: Quran down the toilet a fake reportPosted: 15-Jun-2005 at 06:34 |
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Would you be willing to go up to the mother of someone in Iraq and say "we could get information to save your child but to do so would require violating my rosy, utopian vision of America." "First I do not support this war in Iraq. I did at first but I have come to see that it is another Viet Nam so we can agree with that. " Look at this words, what he care is just American Soldier lifes. If you want to be murderer, just be it. Dont wait us, to think you are saints, who came to help people.
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Thegeneral
Chieftain 
Joined: 05-Mar-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1117 |
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Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 10:32 |
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First of all, I'd like to point out that if America didn't come into Iraq, Saddam and his evil lackys would have killed that little child we saved. I'd also like to point out that there were and continue to be terrorists in Iraq. These are not lies. Lies are untrue statments, like the ones you have made. Perhaps a 'lie' means something else where you come from? But as far as I know, a lie is an untrue statment. Something like "It is just an expansionist war" would be lie. We are far from siants but we are sure as hell saving those people's lives! |
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Murtaza
General
Joined: 03-Jun-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 804 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 10:37 |
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First of all, I'd like to point out that if America didn't come into Iraq, Saddam and his evil lackys would have killed that little child we saved.
who support Saddam against Iran? And who support to bin laden? Who support to Israel? (Maybe you can protect some child life here too)
Edited by Murtaza |
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Richard XIII
Colonel 
Joined: 06-Jun-2005 Location: Romania Online Status: Offline Posts: 651 |
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Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 10:42 |
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I agree. To judge the reality in black and white is a very common european mistake. "If I can't do everything right better do nothing." politics is the major weakness of EU. |
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"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details." Albert Einstein |
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Murtaza
General
Joined: 03-Jun-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 804 |
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Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 10:49 |
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I am not telling they are evil. I wont even say they are agains the islam.I remember their help to bosnians. But this war is not for goodness. Even It ended with one goodness. (Destroying saddam) But It is expansionist
Edited by Murtaza |
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hugoestr
Tsar 
Suspended Joined: 13-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3987 |
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Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 10:53 |
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Your judgment applies to the Bush administration and the apologist of the war of terror. Half of America is outraged by Bush's policy of lies, secrecy, and terror. Half of America disagrees with Bush and his deceitful war. Half of America shares the pain for the deaths of Iraqi's sons and daughters. This is the patriotic half that demands our government to return to our old and noble American values of respect and justice. For respect and justice are at core of the American people. It was our sense of respect and justice that drafted our Bill of Rights, which grants freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, and freedom of the press. Our Bill of Rights protects prisoners from abuse and unfair trials, and cruel punishments. This document has inspired and guided the American nation throughout its history. These principals are the real definition of what America is. At their best, Americans are kind and generous, respectful and helpful, ethical and law abiding. This is especially true for most members of the American armed forces. This is what I and fellow patriots recognize as true picture of the American people. It was my wish, and that of many of my patriotic compatriots, that the Middle East was going to meet this kind of Americans. And I am sure that the conduct of most of our soldiers meets the above description. Unfortunately, the Bush administration violated these principals when invading Iraq and violated these principals when introducing immoral prisoner treatment policies. With it, it encouraged the sadistic streak of a minority among our soldiers. You will surely understand the existence of this minority, since every country has a small group of people who take pleasure in inflicting pain on others. Under normal circumstances, military officers would have not tolerated any kind of abuse. However, Bushs aids had introduced new rules that had legal reasons why abusing prisoners was acceptable. Sadists quickly exploited this legal ambiguity. The result is that the world is meeting the skewed moral face of the Bush administration as if it were face of America. Believe me: patriotic Americans, those who are aware Bushs lies and immoral crimes, are outraged by Bushs human rights violations, torture, and deaths in Iraq and in other parts of the world. Good-hearted patriots, when they see the carnage and the fortunes of those who are responsible for them, repeat these ancient words, pondering on the answer of the last question: O Lord God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself. Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud. LORD, how long shall the wicked, how long shall the wicked triumph? Edited by hugoestr |
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hugoestr
Tsar
Suspended Joined: 13-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3987 |
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Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 11:16 |
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If Bush had not gone into Iraq, thousands of Iraqis would be alive. If Bush had not gone into Iraq, thousands of terrorists would not be dying Iraqi soil with red blood. For today's Iraqi terrorism was created by Rumsfeld's lack of postwar planning. For today's Iraqi bloodbaths were created by Bush's lies about weapons of mass destruction that never existed. It was an untrue statement that has cost thousands of lives. How can your eyes deny a mother's grief for their lost children? How can your words erase the mounts of rubble that once were family homes? How can your ears silence the final howls of pain of those about to die? These you call lies? |
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Genghis
Caliph 
Joined: 02-Aug-2004 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2656 |
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Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 11:23 |
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Our Bill of Rights protects prisoners from abuse and unfair trials, and cruel punishments. The Bill of Rights only applies to US citizens, you can't use that against us. |
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Member of IAEA
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Thegeneral
Chieftain
Joined: 05-Mar-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1117 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 11:54 |
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Yes, I call those lies! If Bush had not gone to Iraq thousand, hundreds of thousands, of Iraqis and many others would be dead. Did you forget about the torture rooms and pits filled with thousands of dead Iraqis?
Listen to yourself! If we didn't go to Iraq there would be thousands more terrorists! What is your point with this one? Isn't America's objective to remove terrorists, not let them live and terrorize?
So, attmepting to rebuild Iraqs government and infastructure isn't a plan?
Bloodbaths? Death of children? You just desribed Iraq before Bush came! |
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eaglecap
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 15-Feb-2005 Location: ArizonaUSA Online Status: Offline Posts: 3959 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 13:00 |
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Eaglecap is indeed justifying these crimes. He is defending Bush's indefensible prisoner torture policies. These are crimes according to the Geneva Conventions. These are crimes that we accused Saddam Hussein of commiting, crimes which today are quoted as a moral justification of the Iraq War.
I do not consider them crimes or torture. You're acting weak and the more you act weak to this enemy the more concsessions they demand. The fact is if a little humiliation saves the lives of our troops or an American city then I am all for it. We need to fight to win or get out of Dodge. Bush is too PC and too soft on the enemy. I agree they should not defile someone's Holy book but it still does not take away the fact that all around the world some Muslims have desocrated what is holy to others. Don't forget about the Kurds Hugo. Whole villages were gassed by Saddam. I met a Kurd when I was last in Greece and he told me all about it. Strange, he was a Christian convert. A death sentence in some Muslim countries. Now for Murtaza - Islam has a whole history of sexual harrasement or rapes. Today in Denmark most of the rapes are being committed by Muslim immigrants against non-Muslim woman. I am not saying the west has been angels and you can find evil on both sides so don't go there. If you understand attitudes towards the dhimmi under Islamic law then you see that non-Muslims aren't worth a hill of beans and why non-Muslim woman can be attacked by some Muslims, I say some because most Muslim men would not sink that low or I would like to believe. "The Myth of Islamic Tolerance; How non-Muslims are Treated under Islamic Law" by William Spencer. Now, I can agree that our moral fabric is going down the tube when gays can have a parade and do sex acts in public and real Americans who oppose this display are demonized. I don't mean to get off track and yes the Koran should be respected but in most of these cases it was the prisoners who abused the Koran and not the guards. How can I talk sense to a America hater though. I think if you compare the historical record of America to Turkey you will find your nation has a whole history of conquest, imperialism and oppression that far exeeds ours. America is not an angel either and we also have a dark side to our short history and plus Turkey(Ottoman Empire) has been around much longer. Today Turkey is different and I hope it stays free and Demeocratic. |
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hugoestr
Tsar
Suspended Joined: 13-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3987 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 13:22 |
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Genghis, I am describing, at this point, what defines Americans. I firmly believe that the principals embodied by the Bill of Rights is what America, and Americans are all about. We are about respect and justice. Do you really want to argue against this definition of America and Americans? |
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Murtaza
General
Joined: 03-Jun-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 804 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 13:37 |
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Islam has a whole history of sexual harrasement or rapes. Today in Denmark most of the rapes are being committed by Muslim immigrants against non-Muslim woman. Bah I am realy curious where did you get this knowledge? And how you choose Denmark in 324242 country. And dont you saw your mistake? You are comparing your nation with rapist. Sorry I think you are lost cause. How can you belittle your country much? comparing it with some terrorist. Compare it with criminals, rapist. Good luck with Usame. I will not interest much, war of murderer and rapists. And most probably not much muslim will interest with this.
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hugoestr
Tsar
Suspended Joined: 13-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3987 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 13:53 |
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Thegeneral, I call lies pretending that the U.S. went to war in Iraq because it cared so much for the liberty of its citizens. This was the lie that Bush and his gang of criminals created when the lie that we invaded Iraq to win the hearts of minds of the Middle East by our great character was uncovered by the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal. Which was the lie that Bush and his gang of criminals created when the lie that we invaded Iraq for its ties with Al Qeada was discovered to be untrue too. Which was the lie that Bush and his gang of criminals created when the lie that we invaded Iraq to get a hold on those weapons of mass destructions was found to be a false statement too. Bush waged war against Iraq under a false pretense. Bush lied and kept on lying everytime that the last lie was discovered. These I call lies. And I call Bush a liar for stating them. If Bush cared so much about Iraqis, why did we wait until 2003? If Bush cared so much about Iraqis, why didn't we waged war using that as our cause? If Bush cared so much about Iraqis, why did we wage war under the pretense of self defense? Why? Because Bush didn't care about Iraqis. He only cared about them when he ran out of excuses. If Bush care so much about them today, how come the Pentagon doesn't publish believable numbers of Iraqis who died since the war started? Because they don't care about Iraqis either. Stating that Bush cares about Iraqis; that I call a lie. Stating that Bush had a postwar plan, when the problems of the last two years prove the contrary; that I call a lie. Stating that there are less terrorists for attacking Iraq when the nationality of Al Qeada's leadership is Saudi; that I call a lie. Denying the death and suffering that Bush's war has caused: that I call a lie and a total lack of morals. |
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hugoestr
Tsar
Suspended Joined: 13-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3987 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 14:31 |
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Eaglecap, My strength rests upon the foundations of strong moral principals. It rests upon the values that has made America great and powerful. Righteousness is on my side; therefore I am strong. Weakness is failure to take responsibility for one's actions. Denying that documented cases are torture, even when they fit the description of torture in the Geneva Conventions, that is failure to take responsibility. That is weakness. Bush is a weak man. He fails to become responsible and he fails to change his criminal policies. Weak are those who support Bush's war of terror. They fail to admit wrongdoing of their leader when it everyone in the world can witness it. They are so weak and scared that they believe that the only way we can win against the terrorist is by becoming terrorists. This is the path of the weak and immoral; because it is the weak and immoral that approve torture and crime. Eaglecap: Read again your answer. I hope you are horrified: you just rejected the Geneva Conventions and the moral principals under which it was written. You just justified Saddam's cruel regime by falsely claiming that a little torture and humilliation can be useful. It is impossible to reconcile American values of respect and justice with humilliation and torture. Anyone who claims the contrary doesn't understand what America is about. How can they call themselves American holding such repugnant views? |
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Thegeneral
Chieftain
Joined: 05-Mar-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1117 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 14:33 |
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So, you don't think we went to war for liberty? Then why does Iraq now have liberty; something they had not had for many years? And I have to say, you really should not critisize the entire administration for a few bad apples. C'mon, that really isn't fair! Bush lied? Perhaps not. You claim that he lied about Iraq having WMD. Have you ever thought that the Iraqis moved them before we could find them? It is rather unlikely Saddam would let those, another case against him, be found so easily. Why did we wait until 2003? Becuase we did not have a large reason to go. Sure we are there to help the Iraqis but we are also there for ourselves. And I don't mean for oil. We are there for our own protection. We waged war in self defense because it was a country that was harboring terrorists of the group that attacked us. If Bush didn't care about the Iraqis, why would he go and help them at all? Bush does help the Iraqis. In case you forgot they had elections, Saddam is gone, and they no longer live in fear. How does the problem of insugency bring about the conclusion that they do not have plan? Bush has brought less death. He took away someone compared to Adolf Hitler! Saddam was the true murderer, no Bush. You seem to be confused here. Bush is the Texan, Saddam is the man in jail.
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hugoestr
Tsar
Suspended Joined: 13-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3987 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 14:53 |
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These are the current conditions of many Iraqis. You dismiss their current suffering by stating that they had it the same way during Saddam. Your argument is like dismissing the suffering of a Jewish Holocaust survivor at the hands of Stalin in 1948 because he had it worse with Hitler. Death is death under any leader. Your lack of empathy betrays our claim that you care about their well-being. Here is more evidence that Bush and his supporters don't care about real Iraqis.
Exactly. The suffering and death of thousands of Iraqis--according to your own words, as quoted above--were not good enough to wage war against Saddam. You have contradicted yourself. Bush obviously didn't go to save them and liberate Iraqis. Using them as an excuse today is convenient, hypocritical, and reprehensible. I will also call it a lie. Edited by hugoestr |
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eaglecap
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 15-Feb-2005 Location: ArizonaUSA Online Status: Offline Posts: 3959 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 15:27 |
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If we had fought WWII in the same PC manner that we are fighting this war then we would have lost to Hitler and the Japanese. In the words of Michael Savage, " you would probably be dead or a lamp shade."
We need to fight to win or pull out of Iraq but just like our southern borders Bush seems clueless. Fighting to win might include a little humilation to save the lives of our troops, remember these are terrorist who would have no problem killig you or your family simply because you are an evil infedel American in a heart beat. I would never promote torture but I respect your views, we all cannot agree in a free society. I a not trying to change them but stating what I believe is right. Hugo I am conservative but I am not a Republican but an independent. I research and really consider the issues and if I do not know what they stand for I will not vote. My earlier stance was dealing with your average American. I still say if they cannot respect what is sacred to others then you will get negative reactions from some American such as the ones who were shooting an Arabic copy of the Holy Koran and doing other things to it that is even in my opinion is extreme. I challenge you to pick up a copy of: The Myth of Islamic Tolerance; How Islamic Law Treats Non-Muslims" by William Spencer. I have an interlibrary loan and I am almost done. From this point I will be doing my research on the fall of Constantinople-1453 and the last Byzantine Emperor so I will get off of threads like this but I would love to contribute the info I glean from my research. |
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hugoestr
Tsar
Suspended Joined: 13-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3987 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 16:37 |
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Eaglecap, WWII and the War of Terror are two very different wars. WWII was a war against nations. Nations cannot move. Armies can be stopped. Going overseas and attacking is a good policy. We could also get a government to surrender. The current War of Terror doesn't have a specific geography. While we are wasting our time in Iraq, someone in Saudi Arabia can be plotting another attack. As a matter of fact, 15 of the 9-11 hijackers were Saudis. Yet we are not invading Saudi Arabia. Most importantly, there is no central terrorist goverment that can surrender to end the war. We can kill Osama Bin Laden, and another person will take his place on the other side of the world. This means that tactics that were successful in WWII are inefficient in the War of Terror. But now that you brought up WWII, let me tell you the experience of my late father-in-law. Towards the end of the war, he was assigned to a camp of refugees that were fleeing from Soviet-occupied zones. It was decided that all of them had to return to the Soviet Union the next day, without exception. The next day, the entire camp was dead. They all had committed suicide by drinking gasoline that they stoled from the American vehicles during the night. The rather killed themselves than go back to the Soviet shadow. As you know, the Soviet Union used immoral means to keep control: torture, humilliations, prisons, no effective legal rights. They justified these because it was the only effective way to deal with its enemies. I am sure that they also claimed that it saved the lives of Soviet soliders. It was really effective; don't we still have the Soviet Union around? Well, that day my father-in-law, then 18, became strongly anti-Soviet. Not only that, but his entire career as a Pentagon analyst was dedicate to fight the Soviet Union. To the day of his death, in 1999, nothing would convince him that the Soviet goverment was ever good. Now you tell me that the U.S. must adopt the same Soviet methods to "win" the War of Terror? Can you understand now why torture and humilliation are not effective tools against terror? It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see 18-year-old Middle Eastern kid who is witnessing U.S. terror today becoming strongly anti-American as well. They also can dedicate their entire lives to the destruction of the United States. P.S. If Michael Savage is so convinced that what we are doing is right, what is he doing here running his mouth when he could go to Iraq and fight for his beliefs? He is just another cowardly blowhard. |
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Thegeneral
Chieftain
Joined: 05-Mar-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1117 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 18:53 |
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Hugo, I have put in my 2 cents and it is obvious we do not agree on this. You are not going to change your view and I am not, so this is really a pointless discussion where both of us stated our responses and know we are just re-stating them. Good day!
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strategos
Chieftain
Joined: 09-Mar-2005 Location: Denmark Online Status: Offline Posts: 1096 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 15-Jun-2005 at 19:36 |
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First of all, I do not talk against you because you are a Turk, it is because I do not agree with what you say. And I am sorry, but i dont quite understand what you mean We dont have to look USA, for learning what usame can do. |
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