The bombing of Dresden

Kristan, thanks for a well considered post.   This is from Wukipedia;
"Strafing of civilians has become a traditional part of the oral history of the raids since a March 1945 article in the Nazi-run weekly newspaper Das Reich claimed that this had occurred.[63] For example, British historian Alexander McKee in Dresden 1945 (1982) quotes eyewitnesses who state that strafing did occur.[64] According to an RAF webpage on the history of RAF Bomber Command, "Part of the American Mustang-fighter escort was ordered to strafe traffic on the roads around Dresden to increase the chaos and disruption to the important transportation network in the region."[65] (see also Yeager's description of similar World War II missions)

Historian Gotz Bergander – an eyewitness of the raids himself – found no reports on strafing for 13–15 February, neither by any of the pilots nor the German military and police. He asserted in Dresden im Luftkrieg (1977, new edition 1998) that only a few tales of civilians being strafed were reliable in details, and all were related to the daylight attack on 14 February. He concluded that some memory of eyewitnesses was real, but misinterpreted firing in an airfight as deliberately aimed at people on the ground.[66] Historian Helmut Schnatz found, in 2000, that there was an explicit order to RAF pilots not to strafe civilians on the way back home from Dresden. He also reconstructed timelines with the result that strafing would have been almost impossible due to lack of time and fuel.[67] Frederick Taylor in Dresden, (2004) basing most of his analysis on the work of Bergander and Schnatz, concludes that no strafing took place, although some stray bullets from an aerial dog fight may have hit the ground and been mistaken for strafing by those in the vicinity.[68] The official historian commission collected 103 detailed eyewitness accounts and let the local bomb disposal services search according to their assertions: They did not find any bullets or fragments thereof which would have been used by planes of the Dresden raids.[69]"

I would propose that no one really knows just how much strafing occurred, and as you read in the Wiki, there were some eye witnesses who claimed to have see it, and unless you can prove that Vonnegut was not a POW in that city, then he perhaps saw what the few others saw?

Conclusions made by later day historians are just like opinions, that is every has one. Smile!

We may just as well "conclude" that some may have seen it and some may not!

Regards,
Ron


Edited by opuslola - 04-Dec-2013 at 22:09

Originally posted by opuslola Well certainly it is part fiction, but the author was actually present during the fire-bombing so one must admit his descriptions should be taken as truth. Or do you disagree? Ron

Vonnegut wasn't writing historically, but positing a kind of parable; therefore, his descriptions must be considered in the light of some extreme literary license.

For example the "machine gunning" never took place because no Allied fighters were involved to begin with. The british bombed by night and did not use fighter escorts, but had they done so they would have used British fighters, not American ones.


Edited by Mountain Man - 05-Dec-2013 at 18:25

Originally posted by Mountain Man Originally posted by opuslola Well certainly it is part fiction, but the author was actually present during the fire-bombing so one must admit his descriptions should be taken as truth. Or do you disagree? Ron Vonnegut wasn't writing historically, but positing a kind of parable; therefore, his descriptions must be considered in the light of some extreme literary license. For example the "machine gunning" never took place because no Allied fighters were involved to begin with. The british bombed by night and did not use fighter escorts, but had they done so they would have used British fighters, not American ones.

The bombers were supported by several hundreds of P-51. As far as I remember commanded the Luftwaffe 10 Me-110 as defense only against the first wave at night. So there would have been much time for machine gunning. But again, there is at least no evidence in allied and Wehrmacht documents and the statements of withnesses could not be verified. But there is a british order/request that the US fighter aircrafts had to attack the traffic on their way back. I don't know whether these request was accomplished or not. That allied pilots did such things is reported and proven. But that is not related with Dresden.

Originally posted by opuslola The official historian commission collected 103 detailed eyewitness accounts and let the local bomb disposal services search according to their assertions: They did not find any bullets or fragments thereof which would have been used by planes of the Dresden raids.[69]" I would propose that no one really knows just how much strafing occurred, and as you read in the Wiki, there were some eye witnesses who claimed to have see it, and unless you can prove that Vonnegut was not a POW in that city, then he perhaps saw what the few others saw? Conclusions made by later day historians are just like opinions, that is every has one. Smile! We may just as well "conclude" that some may have seen it and some may not!

I just don't see what the problem is? Here I have a verified witness, named Kurt V., who actually lived thru the bombings while being a POW!

Yet when he writes his semi-fictional novel and includes strafing of civilians from either English or American fighter planes, we some of you turning to some type of "Official reports" that concluded that it never happened. That is they did not find the bullets allegedly shot form the Allied aircraft. What balderdash! Just where would these "experts" look? And just what of the local German population who witnessed these air-born fighter attacks upon roads, in the area?

This all smells really bad, and should be rejected because of the smell! Have none of you ever realized that "orders not to shoot at civilian targets" were always followed? Be real, it is hard not to figure that at least one or two the P-51's or Mosquito's did not actually fire at fleeing persons, that were lighted by the fires.

To deny the words of Vonnegut, and others is both disdainful and ludicrous!

It is the "experts" that one has to look at!   

The lack of evidence does not bely the truth.

Regards, Ron

Edited by opuslola - 06-Dec-2013 at 17:37

Ron, you said that the statements Kurt Vonnegut makes in his book should be taken as truth. In my opinion, they can't be. I respect Kurt V. just like I respect everyone who had to live through this awful bombing. It is not my intention to be disdainful but I try to look at his statements objectively and when I do this I realize that Kurt must have been under a lot of stress during the bombing (as Beorna said) and that he can really believe that there was strafing.

I visited Dresden a couple of years ago and was pleasantly impressed by its reconstructed buldings churches and parks. Needless to say that the bombing of the this city in WWII had no military value and is considered a war crime today.What it did achieve was the destruction of the old part of town by incdiary bombs and the killing of tens of thousands of civilians including a large number of refugees.I was told thatt the women of Dresden collected the stones that littered the ground after the bombing and helped reconstruct the churches museums etc.

Originally posted by Moustafa Pasha I visited Dresden a couple of years ago and was pleasantly impressed by its reconstructed buldings churches and parks. Needless to say that the bombing of the this city in WWII had no military value and is considered a war crime today.What it did achieve was the destruction of the old part of town by incdiary bombs and the killing of tens of thousands of civilians including a large number of refugees.I was told thatt the women of Dresden collected the stones that littered the ground after the bombing and helped reconstruct the churches museums etc.