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Liangzhu culture,YangTze river-Austronesian origin

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  Quote wingerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Liangzhu culture,YangTze river-Austronesian origin
    Posted: 12-Nov-2013 at 03:22
A high frequency of O1 was found in Liangzhu Culture sites around the mouth of the Yangtze River, linking this culture to modern Austronesian and Daic populations.


Sinitic people civilization originated in Yellow River while Austronesian people civilization originated in Yang Tze River.


Edited by wingerman - 12-Nov-2013 at 03:25
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Nov-2013 at 19:38
 
Jade Gorget Liangzhu Culture
 
 
 
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2013 at 09:33
The Liangzhu culture was known for their Jade work.  Compared with other Neolithic cultures, their ceramics was kind of plain.  Thin walled black glazed.  Jade was commonly found in the tombs of wealthy, pottery in the graves of lessr folks. 
 
I had trouble loading pics.  But if you google you'll get an idea of what the pottery was like.
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  Quote Danny.T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2014 at 08:54
in that era the Southern culture of Chinese mainland was more advanced than that in the North China. H.G. Wells in his Concise History of the World believed so.
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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2014 at 00:10
Originally posted by wingerman


Sinitic people civilization originated in Yellow River while Austronesian people civilization originated in Yang Tze River.


Is the above correct? The Yellow River region was the area where the Cuman people originated. They were described as Caucasian with blonde or red hair, blue or green eyes and fair skin. According to Wikipedia, the Chinese people flourished in the Yellow River area, but their ancient origins may have been more likely modern day Peking. " Archaeological evidence suggests that early hominids inhabited China between 250,000 and 2.24 million years ago.[28] A cave in Zhoukoudian (near present-day Beijing) exhibits hominid fossils dated at between 680,000 and 780,000 BCE.[29] The fossils are of Peking Man, an example of Homo erectus who used fire.[30] The Peking Man site has also yielded remains of Homo sapiens dating back to 18,000–11,000 BCE.[31] Some scholars assert that a form of proto-writing existed in China as early as 3000 BCE.[32]"

Austronesian people, I always thought, originated with the Out of Africa Coastal Migration. "The Austronesian-speaking peoples[4] are various populations in Southeast Asia and Oceania that speak languages of the Austronesian family. They include Taiwanese aborigines; the majority ethnic groups of Malaysia, East Timor, the Philippines, Indonesia, Brunei, Madagascar, Micronesia, and Polynesia, as well as the Polynesian peoples of New Zealand and Hawaii, and the non-Papuan people of Melanesia. They are also found in Singapore, the Pattani region of Thailand, and the Cham areas of Vietnam (remnants of the Champa kingdom which covered central and southern Vietnam), Cambodia, and Hainan, China. The territories populated by Austronesian-speaking peoples are known collectively as Austronesia." from Wikipedia.
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2014 at 09:21
I believe he had something confused there, as your information is considered accurate by most. 
 
 
 
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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2014 at 17:41
Originally posted by red clay

I believe he had something confused there, as your information is considered accurate by most. 
 

 

 


Of course there's also the phenotype differences between the Chinese and the Australian Aborigines, Chinese yDNA is mostly Hpg O, while Australian Aborigines, from memory, are Hpg C.

Australian Aborigines are one of the Austronesian groups, and therefore have genetic links to other Austronesians.
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  Quote wingerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2014 at 22:07
Originally posted by toyomotor

Originally posted by wingerman


Sinitic people civilization originated in Yellow River while Austronesian people civilization originated in Yang Tze River.


Is the above correct? The Yellow River region was the area where the Cuman people originated. They were described as Caucasian with blonde or red hair, blue or green eyes and fair skin. According to Wikipedia, the Chinese people flourished in the Yellow River area, but their ancient origins may have been more likely modern day Peking. " Archaeological evidence suggests that early hominids inhabited China between 250,000 and 2.24 million years ago.[28] A cave in Zhoukoudian (near present-day Beijing) exhibits hominid fossils dated at between 680,000 and 780,000 BCE.[29] The fossils are of Peking Man, an example of Homo erectus who used fire.[30] The Peking Man site has also yielded remains of Homo sapiens dating back to 18,000–11,000 BCE.[31] Some scholars assert that a form of proto-writing existed in China as early as 3000 BCE.[32]"

Austronesian people, I always thought, originated with the Out of Africa Coastal Migration. "The Austronesian-speaking peoples[4] are various populations in Southeast Asia and Oceania that speak languages of the Austronesian family. They include Taiwanese aborigines; the majority ethnic groups of Malaysia, East Timor, the Philippines, Indonesia, Brunei, Madagascar, Micronesia, and Polynesia, as well as the Polynesian peoples of New Zealand and Hawaii, and the non-Papuan people of Melanesia. They are also found in Singapore, the Pattani region of Thailand, and the Cham areas of Vietnam (remnants of the Champa kingdom which covered central and southern Vietnam), Cambodia, and Hainan, China. The territories populated by Austronesian-speaking peoples are known collectively as Austronesia." from Wikipedia.

I never heard people says Yellow River consists of Caucasian people. That is entirely wrong.

" Racially the Shang were Mongoloids, like the preceding Yangshao and Longshan cultures. The Shang bones are indistinguishable from the Longshan. The Shang were not invaders from the Middle East. In addition to racial similarities, the Shang also shared cultural similarities with the Yangshao and Longshan cultures. "

http://donlehmanjr.com/China/china%20chapters/china%20book2/china23.htm

Skulls found in Yellow River are mongoloid. Yangshao and Longshan,which located in yellow river are racially moongoloid,not caucasian.

Hemudu culture(predecessor of Liangzhu) are believed to be proto Austronesian. Hemudu and Liangzhu are geographically the same.

Many scholars believe the Hemudu Culture was the ultimate source of the proto-Austronesian cultures. Their descendents colonized most of the Pacific Islands.

http://bishopmuseum.org/media/2007/pr07036.html

It possible Hemudu and Liangzhu descendant migrate out of southern China around end of Liangzhu period towards Taiwan and SEA.

Unless you mean Yellow River in Qinghai western province of China where Cuman originated,then maybe it possible but Yellow River from Shandong,Henan,Shaanxi and Shaanxi is definitely mongoloid and not caucasian.

Just for the record,I'm talking about Neolithic period,which happen 10000 years ago,not something that happen hundred thousand or million years ago. Don't get yourself confuse.


Edited by wingerman - 02-Feb-2014 at 23:51
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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2014 at 00:00
wingerman: It would be helpful if you knew what you're talking about, but you don't. Do some research before posting. Google "The Cumans" and you will find that they originated east of the Yellow River in China. Read further and you'll find that they were described as fair skinned, with light coloured hair and blue or green eyes. They were Caucasian!

It would seem that you're the one who's confused.
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  Quote wingerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2014 at 01:04
I think you are the one who don't understand what you are talking about.

You keep saying Cuman come from Yellow River,but can you at least tell me which period you talking about? I was talking about neolithic,but in your previous reply,you give me Peking man,which is far from neolithic. What the?? It obvious you are the one who don't understand what's going on.

At least,during neolithic, Yangshao and Longshan are certainly NOT caucasian. They were mongoloid and that's a fact whether you like it or not.

I google Cuman and all I can see is sources from wikipedia(which is editable) and blog.


Edited by wingerman - 03-Feb-2014 at 01:13
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  Quote theSinitic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2014 at 01:55
Originally posted by Danny.T

in that era the Southern culture of Chinese mainland was more advanced than that in the North China. H.G. Wells in his Concise History of the World believed so.

I agree.  The OP doesn't know what he's talking about.  He's probably Zoopiter, the troll that was suspended on historum, and pending further notice.

First of all, Liangzhu was patriarchal and began the patriarchal culture of the Longshan horizon.
http://bruceowen.com/emciv/a341-09s-21-ChinaLongshan3Dynasties.pdf

[...- another rich burial at Sidun was under a burial mound 20 meters high (65 feet!)
    - a young man
    - with over 100 jade artifacts...]

[...- the Longshan horizon apparently started on the lowe
r Yangtze river, in the Liangzhu culture, as early as 3500 BC...]

On the other hand Austronesian was matriarchal. Analytical models based on linguistics and residence data sampling have determined the sociological underpinnings of the Austronesian expansion as being matrilocal and which fit the genetic patterns.
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2009/02/27/rspb.2009.0088.full.pdf
Matrilocal Residence Is Ancestral In Austronesian Societies

The sex-biased dispersal model of early Austronesian matrilocality fits the predominant pattern seen in the Pacific genetics: restricted Asian-derived maternal lineages and a more diverse set of NRY variants (Hurles et al. 2002). Our results do suggest, for instance, that Y-chromosome variants from as far west as Halmahera should not be unexpected in Remote Oceanic populations.

Second of all, you are right in that the south was more advanced in terms of social organization.

In a paper by Scott DeLancey, The origins of Sinitic, it had been concluded Southern Chinese culture created the lingua franca of Sinitic during the Shang dynasty.
http://www.academia.edu/3894773/The_Origins_of_Sinitic

In this context the observation noted in Section 1.3 that Pre-Archaic Shang oracle bone inscriptions are more consistently SVO than Zhou era material, which show noticeably more SOV constructions, makes complete sense: as Benedict and Nishida suggest, the language of Zhou represents a Tibeto-Burmanization of a previously substantially Bai Yue, and thus presumably SVO, language.

In a paper by Roger Blench, Stratification in the peopling of China How far does the linguistic evidence match genetics and archaeology?, it had been concluded the earliest settlers of the Yellow River were unlikely to have any linguistic descendants.  Superphylums existing 6000+ years ago diversified to become language families and none in China were as important as the ones belonging to those whom had capability to expand their linguistic influence beyond their initial territory.  Hence Blench shares Barnes' ideation of "late neolithic elites".
http://www.rogerblench.info/Genetics/Geneva%20paper%202004.pdf

Wherever Sinitic originates within Sino‑Tibetan, there is a broad consensus that its main spread has  been north–south, from the millet‑growing to the rice‑growing areas and that it has assimilated or overwhelmed a diverse in situ population (e.g. Fitzgerald 1972; Lee 1978; LaPolla 2001). It is therefore unlikely that Sinitic can be identiied with the earliest Neolithic communities in north China such as the Péilígăng or Císhān (6500 BP onwards) and it is more helpful to think of Sinitic as one of Barnes’s (1993: 108) ‘Late Neolithic Elites’ emerging between 3500 and 2000 BC. The notable feature of the end of this period is the appearance of bronze vessels in the archaeological record and it easy  to imagine the inception of the Shang as marking the take‑off of Sinitic. Presumably, a major element in the in situ population was Hmong‑Mien‑speaking, but unless these groups were considerably north of their present location, the agriculturists of Císhān were not Hmong‑Mien either. Van Driem (1998) has canvassed Sichuān as the likely original homeland of Sino‑Tibetan (Tibeto‑Burman in his terms). A  comparable view is supported in a study of Y chromosome haplotypes reported in Su et al. (2000) who argue that proto‑Sino‑Tibetan was spoken in northern Sichuān and dispersed westwards to the Himalayas and east and south to create the Chinese dialects. However, they also argue that this nucleus was the lineal descendant of early Neolithic millet‑growers, which seems highly unlikely. There is no obvious candidate for the ethnolinguistic identity of the millet‑growers of Péilígăng and it may be that they have no linguistic descendants.

As you can see, the millet farmers of the Cishan-Peiligang, Jiahu, and Yangshao were Sinicized by Barnes' "late neolithic elites".  The elites spoken of were Hongshan, Dawenkou, and Liangzhu.  However, Hongshan was rejected on the grounds that it was the likely staging area for the expansion of northern non Sinitics.
http://www.rogerblench.info/Genetics/Geneva%20paper%202004.pdf

An interesting example of the politicization of archaeological narratives is the description by Da‑Shun (1995) of the Hongshan culture of Liaoning Province, north‑east of Beijing. This is usually dated to 4000–3000 BC, i.e. roughly contemporaneous with the Yangshao. Despite it being well outside the imperial boundaries, Da‑Shun sees this as ‘the dawn of Chinese civilization’ and attempts to link it with that civilization through a series of typological indicators, a writing system, bronze metallurgy, etc. A  particular type of altar, also found elsewhere in China, is part of the thread that links this region with the later Ming Dynasty. The reality is that there is no evidence that this region would have been Sinitic speaking at this period; it is much more credible that the inhabitants would have been Altaic speakers, either speaking pre‑Mongolic or Koreanic languages.

The actual birthplace of Austronesian was the upper Yellow River where they discovered the Cishan-Peiligang Jiahu area (8500 YBP and connected to the later Yangshao) to be the site of millet farming, pit dwellings, urn burials for children, and matriarchal burials similar to the ones in Taiwan at the Dapenkeng sites.

In Laurent Sagart's paper, The Expansion of Setaria Farmers in East Asia, it had been concluded that the usual traits which were associated with barbaric forms of Yue culture were actually derived off immigrants once resident within the Yellow River areas.  They treated millet as their sacred crop as do Austronesians in Taiwan.
http://www.academia.edu/3077307/The_expansion_of_Setaria_farmers_in_East_Asia

Cultural traits that continued from the Císhān-Péilĭgāng down to Dàpénkēng are: urn burials for children; semi-subterranean houses, seen in Císhān-Péilĭgāng, Dàwènkŏu and among the modern-day Atayal (Ferrell 1969: 30), although in Dàwènkŏu and among the Atayal the semi-subterranean house is only one of many house types. Tooth evulsion, which as we have seen arose in the Dàwènkŏu culture and was  practised at Tánshíshān in Fújiàn, was also practised by the riceand-millet agriculturists at Nan-kuan-li in south-west Táiwān cal. 5000–4500 BP. It was still practised in much the same way as in Dàwènkŏu (pulling out of the upper lateral incisors, in boys and girls) by the modern Austronesians of Táiwān until the 20th century (Yuasa 2000: 61 for photographic documentation).

Using Julian Steward's "direct historical approach" anyone can see the culture of facial tattoos of the Tibeto-Burmans had been shared with Austronesians before they departed for Taiwan.


http://hwyst.hangzhou.com.cn/wmyzh/content/2013-10/09/content_4920423.htm

Liangzhu was typified by hallmarks which glorified 5000 years of China.
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