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A Response for Mr. Foundalis

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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: A Response for Mr. Foundalis
    Posted: 30-Jul-2013 at 12:51
A Greek-American lecturer has written about Turk-Greek relations. Well done for him to able to show emphaty. However this guy lives in America so I don't think that he is a general sample in all Greek community. By the way, I also don' think that he really understoods Turks as a Turk.

In Greek issue,
As I told before, he is Greek-American and lecturer, that's why he looks from just own perspective and he said this,
My deeper answer for the question of why Greeks hate Turks is that, deep down, we Greeks know that if we had not been kept under the Ottoman occupation during the times of Enlightenment, we would not have missed the ideas that developed then.

he also accepted it
 not all Greeks will agree with each other on the reasons for which they hate you.

 Some educated Greeks, when they read or hear about this reason, will agree with me.

First of all, why do you compare with Greece and Italy-Spain? Are they in same level? The last time I saw, Portugal is a touristic-agricultural country and Poland is land of cheap workers. 

Industrialization is a chain. Developed US helped also used Japan, Japan helped South Korea so Spain and Italy just simulated real developed countries in Europe (Ger-Fr-Br-big 3). They were sources of cheap work. Then they became today's positions. However, they are still second class developed countries. That's why they affected worse then big 3 in this crisis. In the equal conditions just because of the geographical distance, Greece wouldn't be same with them. With same reason Greece also would reach late the enough money to make an industrial movement. Italy and Spain made it with argicultural and tourism before the Greece. Just because of their geographic conditions close to market (big 3)

 Both Italy and Spain make cars, for instance (Italy in particular makes some of the finest cars in the world).
I agree about Ottoman bad attitude(especial in late period) against science example printing press. However you are asking why Greece doesn't have own car like Italy. That makes these words true. "Greeks are Turks who think they are Italians"Big smile. When you said we hate you because of you are the real reason of our miss the scientific movement, you make me just smile.

About Quran, Quran can said much thing but we don't have prophet approval about it. It was written after dead of prophet. In this part of your article, you seem to much close to Christianity as guy who said, I have no religion. About seven heaven is also in Judaism. You can believe that Eve and Adam in Bible can symbolize different things but in Islam, it can't be. 

Evolution is still big problem in some countriest in West which doesn't have much atheist population as USA, so the point is not about Christianity has better atmoshpere then Islam to develop science, as you try to say. The point is, majority of Christians able to limit Christianity in their life or totally turn into atheist. Because of that, science developed and Christianity didn't help it. People gained it with fight.     

Evolution support map

You are mentioning about some bad attitudes which were gain by Greeks in Ottoman period.
About corruption; is the Ottoman conqest in Italy reason of today's corruption culture in Italy?
We have once conquested Italians Achilles tendon Big smile


In Turk issue,

*He summarizes Greek perspective about ancient Greek very well.
"Alexander brought civilization to the barbarians of the East"  and also not just East, Greeks brought it to all colonies in the Mediterranean sea. This arrogant perspective is also colonial Europe perspective, isn't it?


*Thank you to remember and remind Turk casualties, but if you think because of those casualities, Turks hate Greeks. You are wrong. If you don't move your casualities today, we even don't remember Turk casualities. We can say destiny and forget it forever. It is not the main issue.  

*There are 2 reasons because of Turks hate. One is real things and one is about Greek perspective.

Real things as in Aegean Sea, but even its damage for Turks, ordinary Turks don't think about think. It comes second

About perspective. As you see in the article, Greeks think that they are the best. They see themselves as the most trustworthy, least arrogant and most compassionate country. However it is not because of they are like that. Just they think like that way

This attitude is unstanable for Turks. 

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When the time Greeks start to expect positive side of Ottoman period as the negative sides and Turks expect East Roman and Ancient Greek as their historical past like Ottomans and Seljuks, then everything can be good.

There is small signs about that future like Skai TV documantary or organizing religious cerenomies in old Byzantine Churches in Turkey, but process goes on like baby walking.


   


 
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2013 at 07:25
"Greeks are Turks who think they are Italians"

Now, that is a joke, right?  It's like saying Turks are Kurds-Slavs and Greeks who think they are Turks!

The fact is that under the Ottoman empire, Greece was not under the influence of Western Europe! That was definitely a negative element.  Greece would be better off under Western European influence. The Ottoman culture did not help Greece at all, in keeping up with the rest of Europe.
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2013 at 14:06
Originally posted by TITAN_

"Greeks are Turks who think they are Italians"
Now, that is a joke, right?  It's like saying Turks are Kurds-Slavs and Greeks who think they are Turks!

Yeap, it is a sarsactic joke, but actually İtalians are not so different. I belive you can find some similarities with Italians and Greeks. I found similarity with Turks. I can put Turkish flag in there Wink

Originally posted by TITAN_


The fact is that under the Ottoman empire, Greece was not under the influence of Western Europe! That was definitely a negative element.  Greece would be better off under Western European influence. The Ottoman culture did not help Greece at all, in keeping up with the rest of Europe.

*Ottoman Greeks were the most open nations to influence of West in all Empire.(after the Levantines) 

*Hungary got out the Ottoman rule before the Greece and also Portugal&Poland never get in? Are they in space age and Greece is not? 

*How much help Byzantine culture to Bulgarians without hellenizing them? I believe that Bulgarians prefer an independent past instant of Byzatine or Ottoman rule.

or

Modern Turkish culture - Greek in İstanbul  / Modern Greek culture - Turk in Western Thrace. 
Did they help?



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  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2013 at 18:09
In fact Ottoman empire was highly militarized state. The overall management of the country and the social structure was subject to the Army and the idea of ​​Islamic expansion into Europe. The decline of the Ottoman Empire came after military disasters, which in turn are caused by the technological backwardness in military affairs. Easier for charging and accurate muskets, long-ranged and destructive cannons overcomes the advantage that had Ottoman infantry in battle with a knife.
 
It is significant that the first textile mill in the Ottoman empire built by the industrialist Dobri Zhelyazkov in the town of Sliven in 1834 was made to supply cloth for the Ottoman army. As one modern Bulgarian writer says: "The main difference between Europe and the Ottoman Empire was in the fact that while Europe had universities in Turkey was Janissary corps."
My opinion is that religion can be a reason for backwardnes, but more important is the intervention of the ruling class in privacy and hamper opportunities for free enterprise and creativity.  Еnterprise and creativity were encouraged by the ruling classes in Europe, as it was generated benefits. Universities were found by a decree of the kings and with the Charters citizens received the freedom of association. It was unthinkable in the Ottoman Empire, where the ruling elite had to oblige power over heterogeneous mass of conquered nations. 

Edited by Kanas_Krumesis - 01-Aug-2013 at 00:54
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2013 at 07:48
Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis

In fact Ottoman empire was highly militarized state. 

Was not net a military project? Military is core subject in science. Science need money and people need security so they pay for military research. Some country in West is still militaristic. Militarized states and research can be together, we saw it in WW2 (but, not my choice) 

Originally posted by Kanas_Krumesis

As one modern Bulgarian writer says: "The main difference between Europe and the Ottoman Empire was in the fact that while Europe had universities in Turkey was Janissary corps."  

Is it that much easy?

why the England is the first industrial country in Europe? Is it just because of their Ar-Ge funds much then the others?

some examples for why; they were far from the continental Europe war. they had rich quality coal, so example an ottoman train needs 2 ton Ottoman coal but, English rival needs just  1 ton English coal. 

and as you see industrial revolution waves, so Ottoman was not extreme bad in that case.










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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2013 at 09:43
Originally posted by Ollios

Originally posted by TITAN_

"Greeks are Turks who think they are Italians"
Now, that is a joke, right?  It's like saying Turks are Kurds-Slavs and Greeks who think they are Turks!

Yeap, it is a sarsactic joke, but actually İtalians are not so different. I belive you can find some similarities with Italians and Greeks. I found similarity with Turks. I can put Turkish flag in there Wink

Originally posted by TITAN_


The fact is that under the Ottoman empire, Greece was not under the influence of Western Europe! That was definitely a negative element.  Greece would be better off under Western European influence. The Ottoman culture did not help Greece at all, in keeping up with the rest of Europe.

*Ottoman Greeks were the most open nations to influence of West in all Empire.(after the Levantines) 

*Hungary got out the Ottoman rule before the Greece and also Portugal&Poland never get in? Are they in space age and Greece is not? 

*How much help Byzantine culture to Bulgarians without hellenizing them? I believe that Bulgarians prefer an independent past instant of Byzatine or Ottoman rule.

or

Modern Turkish culture - Greek in İstanbul  / Modern Greek culture - Turk in Western Thrace. 
Did they help?


Regarding Greeks and Italians, yes I can find many similarities between... the former citizens of the heart of the Roman empire... Especially because South Italy, from Sicily to Napoli, was full of Greeks in antiquity. But that is not the point....

The "Ottoman Greeks" were not a nation but an ethnic group within the Ottoman Empire. Yes, they were kind of open to Western influence, BUT Greece remained Ottoman instead of European, in terms of administration, culture, science etc. That was a drawback.

I am not sure about "space age" but all the nations you mentioned are in better shape right now and  especially Portugal would have never colonized Brazil if it was under  Ottoman rule Wink

Byzantium and Bulgaria were enemies all the way. I am not sure what you are trying to say.  Bulgarians prefer their own independence, obviously. Sleepy



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  Quote Kanas_Krumesis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2013 at 12:26
It is difficult to look for a link between today's high-tech sector, serving orders of the military and militaristic regime of the Ottoman Empire. It is hard to talk about science during the Ottoman Empire. Actually constant wars of the Sultan have ruined the local population. It`s enough to read some of the travel notes of European diplomats passed through Bulgarian territory (like Hans Dernschwam 1494-1559) to understand the total devastation that reigns. The food supplies of Bulgarian peasants were grab and they were dying of hunger. They were mobilized and used for military purposes for thousands of kilometers from their homes. Property and values ​​of Bulgarian merchants, craftsmen and high priests were massively confiscated. And all this against the background of constant religious and ethnic persecution carried out against the indigenous Christian population of the Ottoman army contingents coming from Arabia and the Caucasus. I do not think this has contributed to economic development.

I don`t think that
quality of raw materials is at the heart of the industrial revolution. These were machines. In order to create machines is needed creativity rather than materials. This Ottoman train was built probably in England or elsewhere in Europe. Ottoman Empire never had its Richard Trevithick.


 
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2013 at 15:49
Originally posted by TITAN_

 
Regarding Greeks and Italians, yes I can find many similarities between... the former citizens of the heart of the Roman empire... Especially because South Italy, from Sicily to Napoli, was full of Greeks in antiquity. But that is not the point....
Neither mine. It is not my point. My point isn't relevant with ancient Greek colonies in South Italy. My point is about general common culture like South European Culture

Originally posted by TITAN_

 
I am not sure about "space age" but all the nations you mentioned are in better shape right now and  especially Portugal would have never colonized Brazil if it was under  Ottoman rule Wink
I don't think that Mr Foundalis meant colonies or taking more land. Are there any huge difference in science or technic between Portugal-Poland-Hungary and Greece. Al of them looks similar from out of EU Big smile

Originally posted by TITAN_

 
Byzantium and Bulgaria were enemies all the way. I am not sure what you are trying to say.  Bulgarians prefer their own independence, obviously. Sleepy

Also I don't understand your words "The Ottoman culture did not help Greece at all"
What did they need do?  What did English culture do well for Scotish? or Spain culture for Catalans?


Mr Foundalis seems to be well-intentioned but his opinion is same as this guy;

Most Greeks don’t know how this happened. And most Greeks feel content to blame their fellow citizens, but not themselves! They still have not understood that their backwardness was the result of the occupation of Greece by the Ottoman Empire for 368 years. And during those years, the Greeks were infected with the Turkish bazaar ethic of life, in which making as much money as possible from naive and good natured customers, and bragging about their ability to fool them afterward at the coffee shop, became the typical way of life for tradesmen and business people. Many Greeks are not ashamed to argue that the way to success is: “Grab to eat, and steal to possess!” Those attitudes of nowadays do not originate in Ancient Greece; the Ottoman Turks dumped them in Greece, and the Greeks adopted them!
 
so, Ottomans was reason of current bad ethics of people in Greece, which also cause this crisis. According to me, someone try to find a scapegoat as Germans found Jews after WW1.

There is a Turkish phrase which use for unfair dirty works. We call it "Byzantine game", so maybe Byzantine empire dumped Ottomans and Ottomans dumped Greece LOL





 


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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2013 at 17:04
Olios, my point is simple: The Ottoman empire was the darkest age of Greek history (1453-1821). The Roman conquest was not that bad because at the end of the day, the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantium) was very much Hellenic.
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