queen Bebba

The wife of Aethelfrith of bernicia was called bebba and should have had a daughter called Fila. She was born around 575 and mother of eanfrith. Bebba is mentioned in the Historia Brittonum and at Bede. She is said to have been the daughter of an Erp.

    Thanks Beorna,
1. I still can't find anything searching "bebba daughter Fila" either.
2. do you mean Bebba or Fila was mother of Eanfrith? (In my lists Enfrith is son of Aethelfrith tho so i guess you mean Bebba but just checking.)
3. most of my sources for that part of the lists were net sources, so if you search elizabeth bamburgh + nicholas wooton you'll find the site/s i did. Some sites (russian) claim that the Bambrough line doesn't go back any further than 1653, but there are earlier bambroughs/bamburghs as seen by some in my list which I found in research. Other sites say the name goes back to/thru the pipe rolls/fees. That block part of my lists is not relatives just chronological (as i stated), so Matthew is not son of preceeding john of peerage just chronologically after. (One or two in that block are relatives tho, they are in {} brackets.)
Our family must go back earlier because my father said his father told him we are descended from a german or prussian prince (which story is confirmed by another bambrough family in Newcastle), and from my research it must be anglo-saxon northumbrian prince (from Ida & Bearnoch/Bebba) since our family & name comes from there.
(But i'm also interested in Bebba and the line for historical reasons not just personal.) Its strange that there is so little information on Bebba.
Robert Bambrough fought in the combat of the thirty though name is usu spelt Bembrough.

great, I've added 2 new blocks to the lines/lists:

voden/woden
ba(e)lda(e)g
brand / beonoc/bernic/beornec
beonoc / brand/wegbrand/gethbrond
(brand/ingibrand)
aloc/alusa/aluson
angenvit/angengeot &/or ingwi/ingwy/ingvi
[ingvi &/or] (ethelbert/edibrith)
(o)esa(500)
eoppa (500)
ida 520/559 (+ BEARNOCH 520)
aethelric 540/593
aethelfrith 570/616 (+ BEBBA)
eanfrith 590 (+ pictishprincess)
FILA 635 (+ domnall 643)
garnard 660 (+ queen Spondana)
princess Spondana 675 (+ eochaid 2 (672/698))
eochaid 3 (695/733)(+ ? (700))
aedh Hugh Fionn(725/778)(+?(727))
eochaid 4 the poisonous/archaius 747/819.



voden/woden
ba(e)lda(e)g
brand / beonoc/bernic/beornec
beonoc / brand/wegbrand/gethbrond
(brand/ingibrand)
aloc/alusa/aluson
angenvit/angengeot &/or ingwi/ingwy/ingvi
[ingvi &/or] (ethelbert/edibrith)
(o)esa (500)
eoppa
ida (+ BEARNOCH)
aethelric
aethelfrith 570/616 (+ acha)
EBBA (& cwichelme)
cuthred.

No wonder i couldn't find anything in searches, because it was Bebba's granddaughter not her daughter, and spelt fila not fela.

that answers my question. I'm still interested in learning more about the historical details surrounding the queen/s Bebba/s, etc though.

I may as well also ask if anyone knows anything about the "white bear" & house of the bear of this 7 generations line (which links in with the line of Ida at one point):

white bear & noble woman.  
ursus/utsus/bear.  
{thorgil Sprakling/sp(r)atlingus/shratlingus ('bro of Beorn').}  
ulf.  
{(sweyn), bjorn/beorn_beresune (of the hse of the bear/'bro of sprakling').}  
{7th Siward_Digera/biornsson (1055) relation of Eadulf '2/3' (& elflaed/aelfled [biornsson]).}  
waltheof 2 (1072)/1st earl Huntingdon, sybilla, osbjorn.

oh i don't know, this is all too confusing, the information is so scanty and contradictory between sources. Maybe that source is wrong. Where did you see Fila as daughter of Bebba (and is that by Aethelfrith or another marriage)?

There is no evidence that Fila existed. Her 'name' is just the Latin word for daughter - filia - and was either invented, or misattributed, as a proper name.

Her existence is based on the belief that the Kings of the Picts reigned by right of having a Pictish princess as a mother, and on the fact that very few of these mother's were identified. But occasionally a Pictish King is identified as the cousin or relative of another person through which relationship you can surmise the identity of the mother.

Eanfrith of Bernicia, the son of Aethelfrith, sought refuge with the Picts when his father died, and his own son, Talorgan, later became King of the Picts. It is therefore assumed that Eanfrith had a Pictish princess as a wife, although this is never written in the early records. Because Talorgan was succeeded by King Garnard, son of Donnel, some modern authors have assumed that Donnel's wife must have been related to Talorgan (as sister or aunt). There is no evidence of this. Some writers also assume that Talorgan had a sister who married Beli, the father of Bridei King of the Picts, because Bridei is recorded as having been related via his mother to Ecgfrith, King of Northumbria (nephew of Eanfrith of Bernicia). But how that relationship is made is not explained in the original sources.

Edited by Sidney - 14-May-2013 at 20:04

Thanks Sidney (& Beorna again).

Perhaps you might be right about what you say about Fila etc, given the details you mention (& I respect that you seem to know alot about the subject). (Though maybe Fila "daughter" was for Eanfirth's unknown daughter?)

There is also no evidence/proof that these people (other than Fila) did not exist either. There are dozens of anglo-saxon genealogies linking back to Woden, the genealogies all fall apart if reject links, and a theonym is perfectly feasible esp since there is a Woden-lithi of bronze age America runic/ogham inscriptions for example. There are no alternate genealogies. In cases where there has been tampering/making up it is easy to spot eg when they put in biblical or trojan ancestors in place of original ones. I've seen quite a few cases of "no evidence" turn out to have evidence found (eg joseph in egypt, arthur's battle sites, etc). I've been studying the kinglists/genealogies of other cultures like the Mongols and there always seems to be truth to them (in the Mongols case there seems to be correspondences with Sumerian king lists). Personally I also have more respect for sources like Nennius etc myself than others do.

If anyone can find any better sites (or if I can get to library one day and find better books/publications) I'm all for it, but there seems scanty info on net/web anywhere so far (and I'm usually a good researcher on net as well as off).

Since this is a history forum I did intend for this topic to be about Bebba, and Ida's line rather than just about my family genealogy. I can't work back because I can't find any free/net sources beyond john and isabel in 1700s, and i am not able to go to the mormons or national library for present due to my situation/condition aside from the cost.

I'm not trying to tie in with anyone, I'm just trying to find out more info about all of Ida's line including Bebba and Fila (for historical interest not just possible genealogical), or trying to see where trail leads like you say and not trying to make fit or wishful thinking.

As you have read Nennius, you'll know that Ida was the first Saxon king of Bernicia, previously known as Berneich (Bryneich). Ida's wife was called Bearnoch (and it seems possible that she some how represented the 'new' Anglo-Saxon name of the country). Ida's grandson was Aethelfrith, who gave Din Guaire to his wife, Bebba, and it was renamed Bamburgh after her.

Because Nennius says that Ida captured Din Guaire, but the Anglo-Saxon chronicles say that he built Bamburgh Castle, later writers confuse this with the idea that Ida named Bamburgh himself, and in this confusion give Ida's wife as Bebba, because she gave the site its name.

Whilst Nennius gives Bebba as Athelfrith's wife, Bede only mentions Acha as the wife of Athelfrith. It is assumed that Aethelfrith therefore had two wives, although this is not said in the records.

Oswald, the second son to succeed Athelfrith, is expressly singled out in Bede as being the son of Acha, which might imply that (some of?) his brothers had a different mother.

The Life of St.Wilfrid and the Life of St.Cuthbert write that the Abbess Aebba was the sister of King Oswy (the third son to succeed Athelfrith). Since her name is close to that of Bebba, it is assumed by some that the Abbess was the daughter of Bebba.

Some interpreters claim that the Latin used for 'sister' in the above Lives should be half-sister, or uterine-sister. I am unclear as to why they feel this interpretation is more accurate. But it means that if Bebba is the mother of Aebbe, then she was the mother of Oswy by Athelfrith, but the mother of Aebbe by another man. Whether this was by an earlier marriage before the birth of Oswy (born c.612), or was after the death of Athelfrith when the family fled to Scotland (after 616), is guesswork.   

However, I have also seen the idea that Eanfrith, the eldest son of Athelfrith, was born from a different mother than the other sons of Athelfrith. This is because he has a name beginning with Ea-, whilst all the other sons have names beginning with Os/Of-. Eanfrith's mother is thus identified as Bebba, whilst the other sons are by Acha. How Aebbe would fit into this theory (as an Ae- sounding name, but linked etymologically to Bebba) is unclear. Variations in the prefixes of names is not uncommon in Saxon families, so it might be a red herring.

All these theories of which children of Athelfrith were by Bebba are all based on the idea that Nennius is right to name her as his wife, or that Bebba and Acha are not the same person, and on the assumption that Bebba had any children at all. Bebba might have been an invention to explain the name of Bamburgh (as Bearnoch might be an invention to explain the name of Bernicia). Bede does mention Bebbe, but only as a former queen who gave her name to the city of Bamburgh. He does not attach her to any King, and mentions her first in the context of the death of King Oswald (642), who, as the son of Athelfrith, would have been Bebbe's son, or step-son. It is odd that Bede does not mention this close connection, which might indicate that Bebba was a much earlier queen than Athelfrith's wife. Perhaps Bebba was indeed Bearnoch, the wife of Ida, and Nennius got it wrong. But this is just guesswork - the only indication of her time frame is that she pre-dates King Oswald (d.642), but post dates the inclusion of Din Guaire into Bernician territory by King Ida (r.547-559).

Edited by Sidney - 05-May-2013 at 23:26

Originally posted by Arthur-Robin (Why do people on forums always have to come across so personally attacking? I don't mind being wrong but i hate false impressions.)

Because there's no body language, intonation of voice, facial expressions, or immediate context. Plus, people might be working in a second language, or be on here because they are bored or can't sleep. Few people are really trying to shoot the messenger - only get to the bottom of the query.

I'm glad my information was of interest. Nennius is much maligned. I hope you break through your Bambrough brick wall, and find a host of ancestors that are well recorded and indisputable!


Edited by Sidney - 05-May-2013 at 23:22

Originally posted by Nick1986 Perhaps "Fila" was a daughter whose name was unknown (presumably because she died young)

Very often daughters/wives are unnamed in records. 'Fil(i)a' would mean 'daughter', so yes - she got that name because her real name was unknown, regardless of how old she was when she died. BUT there is no evidence that she existed or married in the way that modern genealogists portray. That Bebba might have had a daughter would not be impossible, but her actual existence and career is unknown.

Originally posted by Sidney Originally posted by Arthur-Robin Our family must go back earlier because my father said his father told him we are descended from a german or prussian prince (which story is confirmed by another bambrough family in Newcastle), and from my research it must be anglo-saxon northumbrian prince (from Ida & Bearnoch/Bebba) since our family & name comes from there. Ida of Bernicia would not be called a Prussian prince. Have you looked again at this family story? Perhaps some one was trying to link the surname Bamburgh to the state of Brandenburg, which later grew into the Prussian Empire (the Margraves of Brandenburg were also the Kings of Prussia). There might also have been attempts to link the name with the German principality of Anhalt-Bernburg (Bernburg sometimes being spelt Bamburgh in earlier centuries). The German princes of Bernburg/Bamburgh were descended from the earliest (Prussian) Margraves of Brandenburg. Bamberg is also a city in Bavaria, Germany. Perhaps your German ancestors are more recent than you think.

yes, Ina has nothing to do with Prussia. I doubt as well, that bambourgh has to do with the house of Anhalt, as descendents of the Askanians. A prince of Prussia could as well be after the secularisation.
The most probable connection with Bambourg could be the Babenberger. But they died out in the 13th century. I don't know of any family connection to England.