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Don Quixote
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Topic: Muslim in Lesvos Posted: 27-Apr-2013 at 08:31 |
Originally posted by Ollios
[Ancient Time: The Oath of Carian Women (Sample of Hellenism in West Anatolia)<span style="line-height: 1.4;">They never eat with their greek husbands who killed their ex Carian ones |
So, what is your point? People had killed each other since time immemorial, this is one of their favourite passtimes. What I meant was that to claim that forceful conversions were equal to free choosing of religion, is a mockery with the historical facts. It's like to say that the BG Turks were voluntarily choosing Bulgarian names during the late 70's, in the so called Vuzroditelen Process. This is different than the normal cultural assimilation, and it cannot be equalized with it.
Edited by Don Quixote - 27-Apr-2013 at 08:37
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TITAN_
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Posted: 26-Apr-2013 at 15:12 |
Originally posted by Ollios
Originally posted by TITAN_
The word Hellene was not abandoned in the Byzantine period, because it means the one who speaks Greek. The Greek language was NEVER abandoned, over the last 4,000 years, so....
Rum is not the actual word the Byzantines called themselves. It was Romei=Roman citizens. |
What about its meaning?
1-Hellen: The girl who fell into Hellenpontus 2-Hellen: from Troy
but it has to have a meaning like Helmet-Turk?
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Helen is utterly irrelevant to Hellenas. The etymology is unknown.... It is the name of an ancient tribe of Thessaly.
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Ollios
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Posted: 26-Apr-2013 at 14:48 |
Originally posted by TITAN_
The word Hellene was not abandoned in the Byzantine period, because it means the one who speaks Greek. The Greek language was NEVER abandoned, over the last 4,000 years, so....
Rum is not the actual word the Byzantines called themselves. It was Romei=Roman citizens. |
What about its meaning?
1-Hellen: The girl who fell into Hellenpontus 2-Hellen: from Troy
but it has to have a meaning like Helmet-Turk?
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TITAN_
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Posted: 26-Apr-2013 at 13:04 |
The word Hellene was not abandoned in the Byzantine period, because it means the one who speaks Greek. The Greek language was NEVER abandoned, over the last 4,000 years, so....
Rum is not the actual word the Byzantines called themselves. It was Romei=Roman citizens.
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αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν
Een aristevin
“Ever to Excel“
From Homer's Iliad (8th century BC).
Motto of the University of St Andrews (founded 1410), the Edinburgh Academy (founded 1824) and others.
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Ollios
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Posted: 26-Apr-2013 at 04:54 |
Originally posted by TITAN_
Both Romans-Romioi-Romei (Rum as you say) and Hellenes were used. The term Greek (Grekos) was rarely used by the Greeks, even in antiquity. No, in modern times we say Hellenes only. No other ethnical name is in use, anymore. |
*so you never give up to use word Hellenes during Byzantine and Ottoman period, don't you?
*for the modern usage, Melkites?
Originally posted by Don Quixote
"has preferred Islam"...is a an interesting expression, when it's known that convertions to Islam, as a rule, happened with the edge of the saber or under severe cultural/economic blackmail. We are talking Islamization here /which is not such a terrible word, as it's popular to think, and just as the other similar terms, like Slavicization, shows the gradual substitution of one culture by another/. |
Slavicization and Islamization could be like your Hellenic way. It's not be with force. Main bad things are ban and rules as there shouldn't be longer bell towers than minarets. Yes, I can use also term convertions. няма проблем
Originally posted by Don Quixote
Laz are not Turks, they are part of the native, pre-Turk populations around the Black Sea, maybe descendants of the people of Colhis. |
Did I say something about they are Turk?
Originally posted by Don Quixote
There was never, to my knowledge, any kind of forceful convertions to "Hellenism", as there were on a mass scale to Islam; so any Hellenization would be done in strictly cultural terms, not as a state promoted religious policy. |
-Ancient Time: The Oath of Carian Women (Sample of Hellenism in West Anatolia) They never eat with their greek husbands who killed their ex Carian ones
-Medieval Time: Eastern Orthodox in Byzantine They were Eastern Orthodox which means also heretics for Byzantine authorities.
Edited by Ollios - 26-Apr-2013 at 04:55
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Don Quixote
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Posted: 25-Apr-2013 at 06:05 |
Originally posted by Ollios
Originally posted by TITAN_
Cretan Turks? You mean Cretan Greeks who were converted to Islam by the Ottoman Turks.... Ok... |
Yes, Cretan Turks which is common name, but of cource, some of them (maybe half, maybe more, maybe less) could be Greek who has prefered Islam. As the same way, Pontic Greek could be Hellenized Laz. <span style="line-height: 1.4;"></span> <span style="line-height: 1.4;">Question </span> Which one is popular in Ottoman time, Rum or Hellen/Greek? Which one was used by Greek people in Ottoman? Is it still used in Greece to define someone like Asian Greeks? |
"has preferred Islam"...is a an interesting expression, when it's known that convertions to Islam, as a rule, happened with the edge of the saber or under severe cultural/economic blackmail. We are talking Islamization here /which is not such a terrible word, as it's popular to think, and just as the other similar terms, like Slavicization, shows the gradual substitution of one culture by another/.
Laz are not Turks, they are part of the native, pre-Turk populations around the Black Sea, maybe descendants of the people of Colhis. There was never, to my knowledge, any kind of forceful convertions to "Hellenism", as there were on a mass scale to Islam; so any Hellenization would be done in strictly cultural terms, not as a state promoted religious policy.
Edited by Don Quixote - 25-Apr-2013 at 07:03
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TITAN_
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Posted: 25-Apr-2013 at 05:41 |
Both Romans-Romioi-Romei (Rum as you say) and Hellenes were used. The term Greek (Grekos) was rarely used by the Greeks, even in antiquity. No, in modern times we say Hellenes only. No other ethnical name is in use, anymore.
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αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν
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“Ever to Excel“
From Homer's Iliad (8th century BC).
Motto of the University of St Andrews (founded 1410), the Edinburgh Academy (founded 1824) and others.
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Ollios
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Posted: 24-Apr-2013 at 14:03 |
Originally posted by TITAN_
Cretan Turks? You mean Cretan Greeks who were converted to Islam by the Ottoman Turks.... Ok... |
Yes, Cretan Turks which is common name, but of cource, some of them (maybe half, maybe more, maybe less) could be Greek who has prefered Islam. As the same way, Pontic Greek could be Hellenized Laz.
Question Which one is popular in Ottoman time, Rum or Hellen/Greek? Which one was used by Greek people in Ottoman? Is it still used in Greece to define someone like Asian Greeks?
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TITAN_
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Posted: 24-Apr-2013 at 03:23 |
Cretan Turks? You mean Cretan Greeks who were converted to Islam by the Ottoman Turks.... Ok...
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αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν
Een aristevin
“Ever to Excel“
From Homer's Iliad (8th century BC).
Motto of the University of St Andrews (founded 1410), the Edinburgh Academy (founded 1824) and others.
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Ollios
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Posted: 15-Apr-2013 at 06:04 |
Originally posted by TITAN_
1) I am not an American. Where did that come from? 2) Greeks living in Turkey and vice versa is definitely no news to me! |
1) My mistake 2) not Greek, They are Cretean Turks who have protected own language
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TITAN_
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Posted: 14-Apr-2013 at 05:49 |
Originally posted by Ollios
Originally posted by TITAN_
Obviously, I knew about Turkish presence in various parts of Greece, which you overplay! Saying that I didn't know anything about all that is plain hilarious! You can find Turks even in Athens, that doesn't mean anything. |
Not same, your idea is coming from "New World" because you are American. However I am living in old world, so according to my mentality, being Turk in Athens is more different than being Turk in West Thrace or Dodecanese.
Originally posted by TITAN_
I never denied there are Turkish speaking Greek citizens but they are all Muslims. They come from Turkish parents. |
I think, you just don't know. they have to be because there are Muslim Turks who protect their greek language in Turkey. I have posted something about pontic greek
now Kritikos in Mersin (Kilikia)
What about new greek immigrants from Turkey? After these things, some Greek descent Turks prefered to live in Greece -1945-Varlık Tax -1960-Coup -1974-Cyprus conflict -1980-Coup -1998-Big Economic Crisis
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1) I am not an American. Where did that come from? 2) Greeks living in Turkey and vice versa is definitely no news to me!
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αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν
Een aristevin
“Ever to Excel“
From Homer's Iliad (8th century BC).
Motto of the University of St Andrews (founded 1410), the Edinburgh Academy (founded 1824) and others.
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Ollios
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Posted: 14-Apr-2013 at 05:44 |
Originally posted by TITAN_
Obviously, I knew about Turkish presence in various parts of Greece, which you overplay! Saying that I didn't know anything about all that is plain hilarious! You can find Turks even in Athens, that doesn't mean anything. |
Not same, your idea is coming from "New World" because you are American. However I am living in old world, so according to my mentality, being Turk in Athens is more different than being Turk in West Thrace or Dodecanese.
Originally posted by TITAN_
I never denied there are Turkish speaking Greek citizens but they are all Muslims. They come from Turkish parents. |
I think, you just don't know. they have to be because there are Muslim Turks who protect their greek language in Turkey. I have posted something about pontic greek
now Kritikos in Mersin (Kilikia)
What about new greek immigrants from Turkey? After these things, some Greek descent Turks prefered to live in Greece -1945-Varlık Tax -1960-Coup -1974-Cyprus conflict -1980-Coup -1998-Big Economic Crisis
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TITAN_
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Posted: 12-Apr-2013 at 03:02 |
First of all, you have an agenda, not me! All your posts are about Turkish presence in other countries. Trying to conceal that, doesn't work.
Obviously, I knew about Turkish presence in various parts of Greece, which you overplay! Saying that I didn't know anything about all that is plain hilarious! You can find Turks even in Athens, that doesn't mean anything.
I never denied there are Turkish speaking Greek citizens but they are all Muslims. They come from Turkish parents.
On the other hand, most Western Turks look like Europeans because they come from mixed Byzantine-Ottoman ancestry.
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αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν
Een aristevin
“Ever to Excel“
From Homer's Iliad (8th century BC).
Motto of the University of St Andrews (founded 1410), the Edinburgh Academy (founded 1824) and others.
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Ollios
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Posted: 12-Apr-2013 at 01:23 |
Originally posted by TITAN_
So, what is your point? |
What . We are using "queto" system. I suggest you read me old posts again. My posts are respond to yours. This doesn't relevant with my main topic
Originally posted by TITAN_
Even if those numbers are accurate... | Why you are acting like that? Where does this skepticism come from? This is also your old post with attitude.
Originally posted by TITAN_
Those maps don't really represent the current reality. Turkish is no longer spoken by young people unless they are Western Thrace muslims. I have been to Rhodes too (but not to Kos), I didn't hear anyone speak Turkish. |
Originally posted by TITAN_
the Turks in Rhodes make up 2% of the island's population. In Kos, that would be 6% of the total population. |
I didn't say that they are majority. You didn't know anything about Turks in those islands and had though that Turkish was just spoken in West Thrace. I just want to be helpful and teach you something
Originally posted by TITAN_
I am sure there are more Albanians! |
I don't think so, they could be just immigrants, not greek citizens. If I am wrong, please let me know.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You are telling that there is no Turkish speaker Greek in Greece. That 's so sad. This means also there is no Greek who can understand this song. This is cultural lost.
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TITAN_
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Posted: 11-Apr-2013 at 08:35 |
Even if those numbers are accurate, the Turks in Rhodes make up 2% of the island's population. In Kos, that would be 6% of the total population. I am sure there are more Albanians! So, what is your point?
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αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν
Een aristevin
“Ever to Excel“
From Homer's Iliad (8th century BC).
Motto of the University of St Andrews (founded 1410), the Edinburgh Academy (founded 1824) and others.
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Ollios
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Posted: 11-Apr-2013 at 05:06 |
Originally posted by TITAN_
Those maps don't really represent the current reality. Turkish is no longer spoken by young people unless they are Western Thrace muslims. I have been to Rhodes too (but not to Kos), I didn't hear anyone speak Turkish. Moreover, even in Western Thrace, their first language is Greek. They speak Turkish only when they are together with other muslims. |
Yes, map is showing current situation.
Entire population Rhodes population is 150.000, Turks are 3000 Kos population is 33.000, Turks are 2000, they are too little to meet one of them in streets.
Example for Kos Platani (Kermentes) Village Kos: The small village of Platani is located at the halfway between Kos Town and the archaeological site of Asklepieion, just 3 km from the town centre. The main characteristic of this village is that most inhabitants are Greek citizens of Turkish origin, which is why the village is also known with its Turish name, Kermentes. There is a mosque in Platani as well as an Orthodox church. You will find many traditional taverns in this village with delicious recipes from Asia Minor. Close to Platani, there is a Jewish cemetery under pine trees.
[/QUOTE] Moreover, even in Western Thrace, their first language is Greek. They speak Turkish only when they are together with other muslims. [/QUOTE]
That doesn't mean Greek is their first language, if they speak Turkish inside their own community. Of cource they have to learn Greek and speak it as much as a greek. In my universite, we have a West Thrace Turk student who is greek citizen. His Turkish was good.
Edited by Ollios - 11-Apr-2013 at 05:07
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TITAN_
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Posted: 11-Apr-2013 at 03:08 |
Originally posted by Ollios
Originally posted by TITAN_
Of course they are Turks. After 4 centuries of Ottoman occupation, how could there be no Turks in Greece or in any other Balkan country? Moreover, Western Turkey (unlike Eastern Turkey) is full of Galata/Balkan Turks, whose origin/roots are situated in Greece and other Southern European countries.
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*But this is not a interesting news. People who speaks ancient greek in my video, are muslim. This is interesting.
Not just the karamanlides, some greeks were using turkish as the first language. Are they assimilated?
What about karamanlides community? I know elder ones know turkish but young people?
Originally posted by TITAN_
Greek communities speaking Turkish? Only some muslim populations in Xanthi and Komotini regions. I am not sure about old ethnic maps. I can't answer that. |
There are two groups of Turk in Greece; West Thraceians and Dodecaneseians (not in Crete now-they were forced to move, but Dodecanese was Italian territory in 1920's so Turks in there could be saved)
As you see in the map there are Turkish speaking communities (nearly 5000) in also islands; Rhodes and Kos. They are native Turks of those islands (not immigrant)
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Those maps don't really represent the current reality. Turkish is no longer spoken by young people unless they are Western Thrace muslims. I have been to Rhodes too (but not to Kos), I didn't hear anyone speak Turkish. Moreover, even in Western Thrace, their first language is Greek. They speak Turkish only when they are together with other muslims.
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αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν
Een aristevin
“Ever to Excel“
From Homer's Iliad (8th century BC).
Motto of the University of St Andrews (founded 1410), the Edinburgh Academy (founded 1824) and others.
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Ollios
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Posted: 11-Apr-2013 at 02:19 |
Originally posted by TITAN_
Of course they are Turks. After 4 centuries of Ottoman occupation, how could there be no Turks in Greece or in any other Balkan country? Moreover, Western Turkey (unlike Eastern Turkey) is full of Galata/Balkan Turks, whose origin/roots are situated in Greece and other Southern European countries.
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*But this is not a interesting news. People who speaks ancient greek in my video, are muslim. This is interesting.
Not just the karamanlides, some greeks were using turkish as the first language. Are they assimilated?
What about karamanlides community? I know elder ones know turkish but young people?
Originally posted by TITAN_
Greek communities speaking Turkish? Only some muslim populations in Xanthi and Komotini regions. I am not sure about old ethnic maps. I can't answer that. |
There are two groups of Turk in Greece; West Thraceians and Dodecaneseians (not in Crete now-they were forced to move, but Dodecanese was Italian territory in 1920's so Turks in there could be saved)
As you see in the map there are Turkish speaking communities (nearly 5000) in also islands; Rhodes and Kos. They are native Turks of those islands (not immigrant)
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TITAN_
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Posted: 10-Apr-2013 at 04:28 |
Greek communities speaking Turkish? Only some muslim populations in Xanthi and Komotini regions. I am not sure about old ethnic maps. I can't answer that.
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αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν
Een aristevin
“Ever to Excel“
From Homer's Iliad (8th century BC).
Motto of the University of St Andrews (founded 1410), the Edinburgh Academy (founded 1824) and others.
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TITAN_
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Posted: 10-Apr-2013 at 04:18 |
Of course they are Turks. After 4 centuries of Ottoman occupation, how could there be no Turks in Greece or in any other Balkan country? Moreover, Western Turkey (unlike Eastern Turkey) is full of Galata/Balkan Turks, whose origin/roots are situated in Greece and other Southern European countries.
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αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν
Een aristevin
“Ever to Excel“
From Homer's Iliad (8th century BC).
Motto of the University of St Andrews (founded 1410), the Edinburgh Academy (founded 1824) and others.
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