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Mysterious leader and his forgotten empire

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mysterious leader and his forgotten empire
    Posted: 11-May-2005 at 19:56

I think that in the medieval history of europe one of the most mysterious things is the first slavic realm or empire which was created by frankish merchant named Samo. The most important source about Samo and his Slavic realm is frankish chronicle "Fredegars Chronicle".

All what we know is that Samo was a Frank born on the area of modern France. He came to the slavic lands which were under rules of Avars as merchant - selling arms. He united several slavic tribes and leaded them against Avars achieving many victories and creating large and powerful realm. In year 631 AD Dagobert I king of Franks sent powerful frankish armies against slavic realm of Samo but Franks were defeated in the battle of Wogatisburg and now it was Samo who with his Slavs invaded Frankish kingdom and raided part of Germany. He died around year 660 Ad and his realm died with him. Probably only his person and authority was uniting all the slavic tribes which followed him and after his death they were not able to find a leader who could have replaced Samo and unite them again so their kingdom dissapeared. Maybe the realm of Samo existed only for a while but his armies defeated all their enemies and formed some kind of state or federation of the tribes in the central Europe.

I think that Samo must have been very interesting person and probably one of the best military and political leaders of the early medieval Europe. He has built from nothing a strong realm just by his own hands and leaded his people to many victories. From merchant to the king ruling people who knew no kings before him.



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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2005 at 05:38
Interesting story, never heard of Samo. Where exactly was his realm located?
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2005 at 11:08

Originally posted by Komnenos

Interesting story, never heard of Samo. Where exactly was his realm located?

It is not really sure but was probably Slovakia, Bohemia, Austria and part of eastern Germany. But it is impossible to say how far his power was reaching because Franks didnt know it well. It was pagan slavic kingdom so there were no monks who could have describe the story of Samo.



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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2005 at 15:00
are you talking about the Moravian Empire?
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2005 at 16:42

Originally posted by Temujin

are you talking about the Moravian Empire?

No, im talking about Samo's Empire.

For you in german:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samo



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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-May-2005 at 17:15

Here is somthing, I copied it from:

http://samo.biography.ms/

King Samo (? 658) was a merchant born in the Senonian country (Senonago) (probably today's Sens in France). He was the first ruler of the Slavs whose name is known, and the founder of the so-called (King) Samo's Empire or Samos's Realm (623 - 658), the first known organized community of the Slavs - actually a kind of supra-tribal union, not a true state. As for Samos nationality (see the end of this article), the Fredegars Chronicle - the only contemporaneous source on Samo- says explicitely Samo, a Frank by birth [or nation] from the Senon[ag]ian province. It is recorded, that Frankish ruler Samo had twelve Wendish wives, the women were possibly refugees and the men or their husbands dead.

The Avars arrived in the Carpathian Basin in the 560s from the steppes of Asia and subdued the Slavs living on the conquered territory. The Avar border ran approximately along the line of the Byzantine Empire in present-day Serbia - Lake Balaton - eastern Bratislava - southern Slovakia - Ruthenia. However, after the Avars were defeated at Constantinople in the early 7th century, the Slavs living north of the Danube started to revolt against them. Samo was one of the merchants who supplied arms to the Slavs (mainly) for these revolts. During a Slav revolt in 623 (probably at today's Bratislava-Devn), Samo joined the Slavs, the Avars were defeated under his leadership, and the Slavs made him their ruler, thereby giving birth to what is known as the King Samo's Empire.

Archaeological findings indicate that the empire was situated in present-day Moravia, Slovakia, Lower Austria and Carinthia. The settlements of the later Moravian and Nitrian principalities (see Great Moravia) are often identical with those from the time of Samo's Empire. Present-day Bohemia probably, Sorbia at the Elbe surely, and state of Karantania temporarily, became parts of the empire later (in the 630s), as well. Although the Slavs, led by King Samo, managed to defeat all Avar attacks, Slav conflicts with Frankish merchants, in which merchants were killed and goods stolen, forced them to fight against the Franks as well: In 631, the Frankish king Dagobert I Merovingian sent three armies against King Samo. The biggest of the armies, hailing from Austrasia (Avstrazia), was defeated by the Slavs led by King Samo at the castle Wogastisburg (Vosgate Castle) when trying to attack the center of Samo's Empire. As a result, Samo even invaded Frankish Thuringia several times and undertook looting raids there. The Sorbian prince Dervan joined Samo after this success. The location of the Wogastisburg is currently strongly disputed with claims ranging from castles in Bohemia, to castles at the Danube, to the Frankish Forchheim, to Bratislava, to Carnuntum etc.

The history of the empire after Samo's death in 658 (or 659) is largely unclear. It is generally assumed that it disappeared with Samo's death. Archaeological findings show that the Avars returned to their previous territories (at least to southernmost Slovakia) and entered into a symbiosis with the Slavs, whereas territories to the north of the Avar empire were purely Slav territories. The first particular thing that is known about the fate of these Slavs and Avars, is the existence of the Moravian and Nitrian principalities in the late 8th century (see Great Moravia) which were attacking the Avars, and the defeat of the Avars by the Franks under Charlemagne in 799 or 802/803, after which the Avars quickly ceased to exist.

Sources of information

The main source of written information on Samo and his empire is the Frankish Fredegarii Chronicon (Fredegar's Chronicle). It has been written by one author (maybe called Fredegar) around 660 or by three authors in the first half of the 7th century. Its second part describes the history of the Franks between 584 and 642/643 and is one of the main source on the Frankish history. It is the only contemporaneous source on Samo. All other sources are derived from this chronicle and are much younger. Examples of such sources are the Gesta Dagoberti I. regnis Francorum from the first third of the 9th century, and the Conversio Bagoariorum et Carantanorum (Conversion of the Bavarians and Karantanians) from Salzburg (the center of Bavarian clergy) written in 871-872, the latter being a very tendentious one as its name suggests (which however does not mean necessarily that it is wrong). According mainly to the Conversio, Samo was a Karantanian merchant.

Names of the entity in other languages

The names of the so-called Samo's Empire in other languages are: Czech Smova e, German Reich des Samo, Slovak Samova ra, Slovene Samova drava (Samo's State) or Samova plemenska zveza (Samo's Tribal Union)).

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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 13:44

This may sound crazy, but I have a suspicion that my last name (and by extension me) may somehow be related or connected to Samo. My last name is Samoila and it is very rare. I'm Romanian and "ila" is a suffix sometimes used in Romanian to make a name or a nickname out of an adjective. For example "Negru" means black and "Negrila" is a name roughly translated as "Blackie". There are no other last names in Romanian that I'm aware of, that contain the root "Samo". Romanian contains elements from both Latin and Slavic languages. So Samo must be a name that comes from neither Latin nor Slavonic. Romanians have had other influences and other ethnicities living side by side with them, such as Turks (both Oghuz and Patzinag and Cuman), Hungarian and Greek. To my knoweldge though, and contradict me if I'm wrong, Samo is not a root found in these languages either.

So it's somewhat possible that a group of people (refugees) came from Samo's realm into Romania (where at the time, it is generally assumed that Romanians lived in Transylvania and the Carpathian mountains, and these people were called by the inhabitants Samo-ila or roughly translated in English Samo-ish, from the clan or nation of Samo.

From the information I've found, Samo had 12 wives, and presumably several offspring. It is possible that the offspring engaged in a war for succession, and either one of them, or a group associated with one of the factions had to flee Samo's realm and taken refuge with the Avars. Transylvania would have lied at the South-Eastern edge of the Avar realm of the time and could have conceivably served as a refuge place. My father's relatives by the way were from Bessarabia, a region of Moldavia settled by Romanian settlers from Transylvania in the 11th-13th centuries.

What do people think? I know it's a far-fetched theory, and nearly impossible to prove due to the lack of written documents, but it's not impossible in my opinion. Does anyone knw of the word root "Samo" in other languages such as Hungarian, Slavic or Turk? Another possibility would be the name deriving from Samuel, so a possible Jewish connection, but going back 4 generations, I don't know of any Jews in the family, and I don't look Jewish. In fact, people often mistake my appearance as being German.

What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

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  Quote NikeBG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2006 at 01:18
That's interesting, Mosquito, but I think there were some earlier Slavic unions/kingdoms in Macedonia. Sorry that I can't give you a name right now! When I fix my comp maybe I would be able to...

Edit: Btw it's a really interesting thing to read for such not-so-popular persons from such not-so-popular times and regions! If you find something more for the other Slavic unions - please, post it!


Edited by NikeBG
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2006 at 06:23
Maybe it`ll be interesting to discuss here, in this topic, the problem for forming of earlier Slavonic states- the State of Samo, the Bulgarian state with center Pliska, the state in Kiev... I mean in particular the role of other tribes or people for the founding of a new state with predominantly Slavonic population.(...o... there are some conroversies for example in Bulgaria about the proportion between Bulgars and Slavs but never mind ;) ).     
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  Quote sitalk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2006 at 13:41

The business with Samo such (on words Fredgar) is shorter:
About 623 years a merchant - the French from city Sans has come to the people of the slavs, which call vinidi. He became the king of the slavs and has headed revolt against Hun and Avar. Samo has kept a victory above Hun and Avar. He of rules of the slavs 35 years, had 12 women, 22 sons and 15 daughters.

About 631-632 years of the slavs the merchants from the French have killed. And Dagobert has gone on war with Samo. The army has gone to 3 parts: alemani and langobardi have kept a victory above the slavs. But at siege Vogastisburg the army the French has undergone a defeat.

My last name is Samoila and it is very rare.

If not it will turn out with Samo, at us was zar Samoil.

 

 

 

 



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  Quote yan123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 05:04
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  Quote yan123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 05:04
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www2.arnes.si/~msinko6/seminarska_mirjam/poselitev_n.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www2.arnes.si/~msinko6/seminarska_mirjam/naselitev_nastanek.htm&h=510&w=672&sz=66&tbnid=Czda38gOG8WDIM:&tbnh=105&tbnw=138&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSAMOVA%2BPLEMENSKA%2BZVEZA&usg=__ru-dzA-BuqShxGIoa_8b6JiEH80=&sa=X&ei=r509TOvtM8yOOPyMra4P&ved=0CFkQ9QEwDA
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2010 at 14:15
From an above post;

"The business with Samo such (on words Fredgar) is shorter:
About 623 years a merchant - the French from city Sans has come to the people of the slavs, which call vinidi. He became the king of the slavs and has headed revolt against Hun and Avar. Samo has kept a victory above Hun and Avar. He of rules of the slavs 35 years, had 12 women, 22 sons and 15 daughters.

About 631-632 years of the slavs the merchants from the French have killed. And Dagobert has gone on war with Samo. The army has gone to 3 parts: alemani and langobardi have kept a victory above the slavs. But at siege Vogastisburg the army the French has undergone a defeat.

My last name is Samoila and it is very rare."

As far as I know the French or Frank word "Sans", means mostly "Without!", or "absent?", or merely "with?"

But, of course I cannot let this chance go by, without mentioning that "Sans" might well stand for "saints?"

Too many choices, too little time!


Edited by opuslola - 19-Aug-2010 at 14:22
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote Sarmata Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 01:54
in Polish "tak samo" would mean "the same". on the other hand, "sam", "sama" means "alone".
...just sayin.
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  Quote theartofhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2011 at 20:54

I think that the name Samo does not have to be of Frank origin, but maybe it is something like nickname he used to be called by his companion, not frank merchant´s real name. It could be also his title as a "king".  As you mentioned in Polis/Slovak/Czech "sám", "samo" means "alone" or "the only one". Samovládca means the ruler, samovláda is the term used today for local governments in SK/CZ.

So it is possible that the name Samo is not of Frank but Slavic origin
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2011 at 21:25
Dear, The Art of History!"

I really enjoyed your post above, and I feel that you have a lot more to say, concerning the topic or word meanings?

So, I am merely awaiting your next post!
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2011 at 02:24
There is a possibility that this is also a Jewish  name, that were popular when new religion was accepted in this regions.Samuel or something like that is also possible choice .Samo(To) is "from uniques He/it".
"Samoila" is "slavic" version of Samuel.Original is Samoile.Middle age was time with self inaugurated kings.There is another "Samoil" on the territories  of Balkans.After archaeological excavations around his fortress on lake Ohrid(disputed Republic of Macedonia),there are not evidences for his existence.Person with same name have stone tombstone in Bulgaria,excavated from small isle of St.Ahily in lake Prespa during world wars.
  Epic song about Roland and his blinded army is only evidence about his existence.Army of 14000 soldiers
was blinded by Byzantine Army after they were defeated.Every hundred soldier have one eye left only to show the rest there way to home.This was ordered by Vasily 2  in year 1014.Looking from this distance i believe message was this:You are blind to see your true opportunities  so you need no eyes.Every hundred eye is something like:God forgive me for those that were seduced and did treason!
  


Edited by medenaywe - 26-Jan-2011 at 04:47
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2011 at 12:26
Originally posted by medenaywe

There is a possibility that this is also a Jewish  name, that were popular when new religion was accepted in this regions.Samuel or something like that is also possible choice .Samo(To) is "from uniques He/it".
"Samoila" is "slavic" version of Samuel.Original is Samoile.  
 
 
In Polish Samuel is Samuel so saying that Samoila" is "slavic" version of Samuel I find wrong. And Christians use Jewish names too.
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2011 at 14:18
That is the point above.Christianity started in Judea.Original form of name is still present in Judea and  Balkans.Even if it seems that this name was common all around the Mediterranean coastal area long time ago.Last form "Samoile" literary means"from uniques first one".Close to Rome names changed there basic logical structure.Byzantine Empire during 9th century changed syllables logical forms and created official "slavic" language.They need former slaves like tax payers so they had to read and write.Easiest way was language composed from there syllables.Simply spoken Byzantine Empire had not
time for language change with Greek alphabet.If decision was not made fast enough territories,believers and tax payers from those areas were lost forever.



Edited by medenaywe - 26-Jan-2011 at 14:47
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  Quote theartofhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2011 at 17:38
The theory of Jewish origin is interesting also.
There are archeological artefacts that prove the semitian influence on frank culture. Phoenician and Semitian trading routes crossed the south France from Bordeaux to Marseille and Narbonne ending northern to the Rhyne. In many parts of France there were cities with Jewish names in the old Meroveian empire. For example: Near Stenay, text to Woeverian forrest (where Dagobert was killed) is the village called Baalon. Between Stenay and Orval is the city called Avioth.
In Meroveian dynasty there has been some Jewish names for example: The brother of King    Chlotar II was Samson. The Duke of Rossillon was Solomon and also the King of Bretona was Solomon also. There was the abbot Elisachar( or Elezar, Lazar). Jewish names were common especially by marriages of Meroveians and Vizighots. Dagobers father in law was Bera, what means "son" in armenian and it is of semit descent. And Bera´s sister was married to member of Levy family. So the jewish origin is also possible.
 
There are other hypothesis of his origin (Celtic, Slavic, Frank)
But the origin does not matter because the old pagan slavs did not care whether their boss is of Jewish or Christian origin. For them the forigner who knew how to defeat kagan Bajan was more acceptable then any of the slavic tribal leaders among them.
All these theories and hypothesis are speculations so we have to rely on the only "eywitness"- Fredegar, who says just that he was a Frank Merchant from Senonia.
 
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