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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Persian art painting proves Turks were Mongoloid
    Posted: 10-Mar-2013 at 12:22
Okay..... I always keep seeing a difference of painting between Turks and Arabs, tell me why there is a huge difference in eye shape, size and face drawing?  Surely if Turks were Caucasoid like some Turkish people have claimed than why did they drew them so differently from the Arabs.

Please explain this to me.

Okay sure in Painting of Arabs look you can argue it has some Mongoloid influence like the big slanted eyes



by Rashid al-Din, published in Tabriz, Persia, 1307 A.D.

But yet when they draw Turks they always looks so Mongoloid with very small slanted eyes.

English: Babur and Humayun Persian style painting in 1650

Garden Scene, Aq Quyunlu period (1396–1508), ca. 1430
Iran, possibly Tabriz Opaque watercolor and gold on undyed silk

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2013 at 16:33
It is a fact that the motherland of the Turkish tribes is Central Asia (Mongolian steppes). The origins of the Turkish languages are right there...

Edited by TITAN_ - 10-Mar-2013 at 16:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2013 at 00:07

The fact is that there was a strong Chinese influence on the Persian miniature after the Mongol conquests, as you can see in the eblow pic, even the red-haired Persian hero Rostam looks Mongoloid:



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 11-Mar-2013 at 00:14
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2013 at 01:50
Originally posted by MrButlerKing

Okay..... I always keep seeing a difference of painting between Turks and Arabs, tell me why there is a huge difference in eye shape, size and face drawing?


First of all, let's go to alternative world. In this world, there is still a tribe/ clan as Slav. However, there is no word such as Russian or Russia. These people call themselves as Slav and the name of their country something like that Slavia/Slavistan. So What do you want to mean with Slav. Slav=Russian or Slav=Russian+Bulgars+Serbs+... It is same thing for the word "Turk"

Moors/Arabs and Turks



Originally posted by MrButlerKing


 Surely if Turks were Caucasoid like some Turkish people have claimed than why did they drew them so differently from the Arabs.


Do you know that Caucasoid race doesn't come out just Nordic race(fair hair and blue eyes), don't you?

Nordic race is just one of its sub-type as Mediterreanean race. And Mediterreanean has also sub-types: Irano-Afhgan, Arabid, Armanoid...
 
In my opinion, Turanid race should be in Mongolid group not, Caucasoid. The problem is people of Europe who was made these research first, try to definate Turanid race with based on Turks in Anatolia.

Meyers Map


He is adding Turks in Anatolia, Finns and Hungarians in to Mongoloid type, but he is looking lungustic (Ural-Altay Languages) not genetic.



In the Turkish world, I just put the people in Turkey, Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan in to Caucasoid race. Others should be in Mongoloid group. Mongoloid effect is more powerful than Caucasoid.





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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2013 at 06:55
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The fact is that there was a strong Chinese influence on the Persian miniature after the Mongol conquests, as you can see in the eblow pic, even the red-haired Persian hero Rostam looks Mongoloid:


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In the Turkish world, I just put the people in Turkey, Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan in to Caucasoid race. Others should be in Mongoloid group. Mongoloid effect is more powerful than Caucasoid.
 

I don't really believe in classifications of races into Caucasoid/Mongoloid etc because there are no clear boundaries and people nations of people can't be put into categories. 

Generally speaking IMO Turks, pre-Mongol era were a Eurasian people who living between for arguments sake people with more Mongoloid features on the East and Caucasoid features on the West had to have had features from both. 

Chinese records point to this, they clearly differentiate the Xiongnu and GokTurks as looking different to themselves and having beards/facial hair as well as coloured eyes and hair. 

Turks in Turkey, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan in general look quite similar and I would parts of Uzbekistan and the Uygurs with this group as well. 

You see quite a lot of people with almond shaped eyes and dark hair, seeing people with let's say slightly 'Mongoloid' eyes and high cheek bones is not uncommon in Turkey. But these are just generalisations of course there are blonde, blue eyes, green eyed etc but there are also the same colours in Turkmenistan and even the Uygur regions in China. 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2013 at 11:30
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The fact is that there was a strong Chinese influence on the Persian miniature after the Mongol conquests, as you can see in the eblow pic, even the red-haired Persian hero Rostam looks Mongoloid:


Thanks for the info. Thumbs Up
Had been wondering why Iranians look Mongoloid in those miniatures.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2013 at 07:09
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The fact is that there was a strong Chinese influence on the Persian miniature after the Mongol conquests, as you can see in the eblow pic, even the red-haired Persian hero Rostam looks Mongoloid:


Be that as it may, there is no portrait of of those during their time. I see slanty eye men in those pictures, I wouldn't say they look mongoloid just because the distance of face is in the picture is too small, obviously their eyes would end up small, I like to see a closer up picture.

Thanks for the info. Thumbs Up
Had been wondering why Iranians look Mongoloid in those miniatures.
Turks have lived in Iran since 970 when the Ghaznanid conquered Middle east and many became Iranians by adopting persian culture. Even The Turks began speaking persians.


I don't know but  one of the reason I believe in it strongly is  because there still Mongoloid looking Turks in Persia. For example this paintings is found in today's Golestan palace were Mongoloid Turks still lives lol and these people DNA are unaffected by Mongolian like Hazara but instead they have 42.6% of haplgroup Q.


Painting by Rashid al-Din


Here are same people from the same location where the painting is today.





Edited by MrButlerKing - 13-Mar-2013 at 08:34
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2013 at 07:15
Originally posted by Bulldog

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The fact is that there was a strong Chinese influence on the Persian miniature after the Mongol conquests, as you can see in the eblow pic, even the red-haired Persian hero Rostam looks Mongoloid:


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Ollios
In the Turkish world, I just put the people in Turkey, Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan in to Caucasoid race. Others should be in Mongoloid group. Mongoloid effect is more powerful than Caucasoid.
 

I don't really believe in classifications of races into Caucasoid/Mongoloid etc because there are no clear boundaries and people nations of people can't be put into categories. 

Generally speaking IMO Turks, pre-Mongol era were a Eurasian people who living between for arguments sake people with more Mongoloid features on the East and Caucasoid features on the West had to have had features from both. 

Chinese records point to this, they clearly differentiate the Xiongnu and GokTurks as looking different to themselves and having beards/facial hair as well as coloured eyes and hair. 

Turks in Turkey, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan in general look quite similar and I would parts of Uzbekistan and the Uygurs with this group as well. 

You see quite a lot of people with almond shaped eyes and dark hair, seeing people with let's say slightly 'Mongoloid' eyes and high cheek bones is not uncommon in Turkey. But these are just generalisations of course there are blonde, blue eyes, green eyed etc but there are also the same colours in Turkmenistan and even the Uygur regions in China. 



About 30% of Kazakhs from western Mongolia have colored eyes and hair too. Even Oirat Mongolians have many of these traits.



The Xiongnu and Gokturks were both described about the same. There ain't that many differences.

Facial reconstruction of Gokturks


Facial reconstruction of Xiognu




Turks in Turkey, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan in general look quite similar and I would parts of Uzbekistan and the Uygurs with this group as well. 


I wouldn't say that my friend. More like Azeris, Turkish, Southern Turkmen look closer. While Northern Turkmen, Southern Uzbeks, Uyghurs look closer.

Tajiks also look closer to Turkmen but their not turks though.



Southern Turkmens are 1/8  to 1/3 Mongoloid genetic shows Turkmens from the Northern and Eastern part are between 1/4 to 1/2 Mongoloid.






Edited by MrButlerKing - 13-Mar-2013 at 07:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2013 at 07:46






Okay examples of Turkmen from Turkmenabat.
 

I suggest you click the picture and zoom in for this one, don't be fooled by the distance


These paintings are also ancient persian painting after the Mongol conquest.









Edited by MrButlerKing - 13-Mar-2013 at 08:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2013 at 19:23
MrButlerKing, why does it matter so much if the Turks were "Mongoloid" or not?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2013 at 22:41
Originally posted by Nick1986

MrButlerKing, why does it matter so much if the Turks were "Mongoloid" or not?

Modern Turkish people always like to say their Caucasoid just so can identify directly with Central Asians and not with ancient Anatolians. I like to see how they call Mongoloid or Half Mongoloid people their ancestors.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2013 at 10:57
Originally posted by MrButlerKing

I don't really believe in classifications of races into Caucasoid/Mongoloid etc

 
I want to remind you that your title is about being mongoloid. Now you are saying that you didn't belive it. Confused

Originally posted by MrButlerKing


because there are no clear boundaries and people nations of people can't be put into categories. 


I agree you, there is no clear boundaries, but we have use categories. Think about general life. Platypus is bird or mammal? We always have to decide.

Originally posted by MrButlerKing


Turks in Turkey, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan in general look quite similar and I would parts of Uzbekistan and the Uygurs with this group as well. 

I wouldn't say that my friend. More like Azeris, Turkish, Southern Turkmen look closer. While Northern Turkmen, Southern Uzbeks, Uyghurs look closer.


However, they are not unique homogeneous group of people. Mongoloid genes clearly increase, if you go people in east. Also I wouldn't ignore mongoloid genes. My point is that if you have to decide a side/category. not just Turks in Turkey, also Turkmen people of Turkmenistan should be in Caucasoid group.

Did you check your sources well?

Originally posted by MrButlerKing

Southern Turkmens are 1/8  to 1/3 Mongoloid genetic shows Turkmens from the Northern and Eastern part are between 1/4 to 1/2 Mongoloid.




According to your sources, Turkmen people are more West Eurasian than East Eurasian. Big smile

Originally posted by MrButlerKing

Modern Turkish people always like to say their Caucasoid just so can identify directly with Central Asians and not with ancient Anatolians. I like to see how they call Mongoloid or Half Mongoloid people their ancestors.


Same problem, I thought I was clear in the first paragraf of my first post. What did you mean by Turks?

Turk: Central Asian Turks
Turk: Modern Turkish People 

If your issue is about modern Turkish people, as you said above, why you are using Turkmen sources? Confused

*No, not. People in Turkey is just now starting to accept their Anatolian heritage. Before that all of them, believe that they are Central Asian. They have just started to say that after recent genetic research. 

*I can not still see any proof about "can identify directly with Central Asians and not with ancient Anatolians." As I told before. In fact, you gave me sources about West Eurasian heritage of Turkmen people.

*"Mongoloid or Half Mongoloid"  That means 100% or 50%. Confused
Turks can be the most mongoloid nation of Europe, but they are still caucasoid. Because their mongoloid structure is less than 25%.



Modern Turks of Turkey definetly belongs Middle East and South Europe.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2013 at 13:10
Originally posted by MrButlerKing



I suggest you click the picture and zoom in for this one, don't be fooled by the distance



 

If you told me this picture was from Azerbaycan, Turkey, Eastern Turkestan.. I wouldn't be surprised as same dances, dresses, songs are in all these areas. 



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No, not. People in Turkey is just now starting to accept their Anatolian heritage. Before that all of them, believe that they are Central Asian. They have just started to say that after recent genetic research.  

*I can not still see any proof about "can identify directly with Central Asians and not with ancient Anatolians." As I told before. In fact, you gave me sources about West Eurasian heritage of Turkmen people.

*"Mongoloid or Half Mongoloid"  That means 100% or 50%. Confused 
Turks can be the most mongoloid nation of Europe, but they are still caucasoid. Because their mongoloid structure is less than 25%.
 


I don't understand why some people try to link genetics and nationhood. 

Firstly, Turks before the Mongol expansion, well the Turks West of the Caspian looked pretty similar to the Turkmen in Turkmenistan today. 

Nation wise, Turks of Turkey, Azerbaycan, Iran, Turkmenistan, middle east, Balkans... all belong to the Oghuz Turks, the Turkish is mutually intelligible, same legends & epics, similar cuisines, music etc 

Oghuz Turks were from Western Eurasia, the idea that they were 100% Mongoloid whatever that even means isn't logical. 

The Turks are Mongols argument is the subject of pseudoscience and ethnic nationalism. 

It stems from the extreme-nationalist ideologies of the region which claim Turks are Mongols and should go back to Mongolia. 

And that Turks in Turkey and Western Asia aren't really Turks they just think they are Confused people saying they are Turks apparently are not and are living under the yoke of the Turks... ridiculous arguments


Edited by Bulldog - 14-Mar-2013 at 13:24
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2013 at 15:15
Originally posted by MrButlerKing

Originally posted by Nick1986

MrButlerKing, why does it matter so much if the Turks were "Mongoloid" or not?

Modern Turkish people always like to say their Caucasoid just so can identify directly with Central Asians and not with ancient Anatolians. I like to see how they call Mongoloid or Half Mongoloid people their ancestors.
u need at least 50% people mongoloid to claim that they have mongol background which is not
u talk about turkmens b4 and  i didn't answer ur trolling i i see u took pic of hazars from afghanestan and claim they are turkmen and they are from turkmenistan but they aren't every one who live in khorasan knows they are not turkmen i can explain if need it !!! now i ill put my pic my brother and my sister and my gf its very simple any one can find turkmen pic from facebook




Edited by yomud - 14-Mar-2013 at 15:46
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2013 at 18:16
Originally posted by Ollios

Originally posted by MrButlerKing

I don't really believe in classifications of races into Caucasoid/Mongoloid etc

 
I want to remind you that your title is about being mongoloid. Now you are saying that you didn't belive it. Confused

Originally posted by MrButlerKing


because there are no clear boundaries and people nations of people can't be put into categories. 


I agree you, there is no clear boundaries, but we have use categories. Think about general life. Platypus is bird or mammal? We always have to decide.

Originally posted by MrButlerKing


Turks in Turkey, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan in general look quite similar and I would parts of Uzbekistan and the Uygurs with this group as well. 

I wouldn't say that my friend. More like Azeris, Turkish, Southern Turkmen look closer. While Northern Turkmen, Southern Uzbeks, Uyghurs look closer.


However, they are not unique homogeneous group of people. Mongoloid genes clearly increase, if you go people in east. Also I wouldn't ignore mongoloid genes. My point is that if you have to decide a side/category. not just Turks in Turkey, also Turkmen people of Turkmenistan should be in Caucasoid group.

Did you check your sources well?

Originally posted by MrButlerKing

Southern Turkmens are 1/8  to 1/3 Mongoloid genetic shows Turkmens from the Northern and Eastern part are between 1/4 to 1/2 Mongoloid.




According to your sources, Turkmen people are more West Eurasian than East Eurasian. Big smile

Originally posted by MrButlerKing

Modern Turkish people always like to say their Caucasoid just so can identify directly with Central Asians and not with ancient Anatolians. I like to see how they call Mongoloid or Half Mongoloid people their ancestors.


Same problem, I thought I was clear in the first paragraf of my first post. What did you mean by Turks?

Turk: Central Asian Turks
Turk: Modern Turkish People 

If your issue is about modern Turkish people, as you said above, why you are using Turkmen sources? Confused

*No, not. People in Turkey is just now starting to accept their Anatolian heritage. Before that all of them, believe that they are Central Asian. They have just started to say that after recent genetic research. 

*I can not still see any proof about "can identify directly with Central Asians and not with ancient Anatolians." As I told before. In fact, you gave me sources about West Eurasian heritage of Turkmen people.

*"Mongoloid or Half Mongoloid"  That means 100% or 50%. Confused
Turks can be the most mongoloid nation of Europe, but they are still caucasoid. Because their mongoloid structure is less than 25%.



Modern Turks of Turkey definetly belongs Middle East and South Europe.


I mean't Turkish people want to say Turkic people were Caucasoid but they were not. Turkish people today are not even real Turks, they are primary descendants of Anatolians who mixed with a very large number of Turkmen who were part Mongoloid.


According to your sources, Turkmen people are more West Eurasian than East Eurasian.  :)

It doesn't matter their still a mixed group, Turkish should be considered Caucasoid with slight mongoloid admixture. But Turkmen should be consider mixed, if we consider them as Caucasoid because they are closer to Caucasoid than many hollywood celebrities who are 1/4 Chinese, 1/3 Japanese, or almost 1/2 Korean should all be considered Caucasoid.


Turks can be the most mongoloid nation of Europe, but they are still caucasoid. Because their mongoloid structure is less than 25%.

Turks from Turkey I can agree although Mongoloid admixture can range in Turkey from province to province, some province shows Turkish people are 15-20% Mongoloid on average.  That means that many of the  Turkmen/Sejuks who conquered Turkey would have been from 30-40% Mongoloid.

Turkish Aydin



1 Sample 18.5% Mongoloid admixture
2 Sample 18% Mongoloid admixture
1 Sample 17% Mongoloid admixture
3 Sample 15% Mongoloid admixture

------------------------

1 Sample 13.7% Mongoloid admixture
2 Sample 13.5% Mongoloid admixture
1 Sample 12.5% Mongoloid admixture

-----------------------

1  Sample 8% Mongoloid admixture
2  Sample 3.5% Mongoloid admixture
1  Sample 2.5% Mongoloid admixture
1  Sample 2% Mongoloid admixture
1  Sample 0% Mongoloid admixture



Turkish Instanbul






2 Samples have 15% Mongoloid admixture
1 Samples have 13% Mongoloid admixture
2 Samples have 12.5% Mongoloid admixture

-----------------

1 Sample 8%    Mongoloid admixture
2 Samples 6.8%   Mongoloid admixture
9 Samples 4.5 - 6%   Mongoloid admixture

----------------------

1 sample  0.5%

Turkish Kayseri

3 Samples 12 - 13% 
5 Samples  6-7% Mongoloid
10 Samples 4-5% Mongoloid
5 Samples 3.5% Mongoloid


Edited by MrButlerKing - 14-Mar-2013 at 18:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2013 at 18:24


50% is only part, in my opinion , so is 25%. If a 50% Mongoloid mated with a Caucasian he will be 25% Mongoloid.

took pic of hazars from afghanestan  

Try proving that to me. All those pictures are Turkmen from Golestan.


Edited by MrButlerKing - 14-Mar-2013 at 19:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2013 at 19:07
Nation wise, Turks of Turkey, Azerbaycan, Iran, Turkmenistan, middle east, Balkans... all belong to the Oghuz Turks, the Turkish is mutually intelligible, same legends & epics, similar cuisines, music etc


Oghuz originated from what eastern Kazakhstan and expanded south to Turkmenistan and mixed the indeniousness Iranic people.


Your original Oghuz speaker look like this

Among the Oghuz (mainly in the steppe zone of their resettlement) dominated Mongoloid racial type. "They - wrote about the Aral Oghuz in the tenth century. Al-Masudi, - most of undersized (Turks) and they have very small eyes" [11]. Other medieval authors note poorly defined vegetation on the face and body and Ploskonos Oguz. All of this suggests Mongoloid features that were characteristic of the bulk predominantly steppe Oguz [12].





 Turkey was not the only one's who transported millions of Balkan and Circassian slaves to their contry and diluting their Mongoloid DNA., even the Uzbek and Turkmen also had transported million of Iranian slaves to their countries.

MILLION OF TURKMEN AND UZBEKS TODAY ARE REALITY DESCENDANTS OF PERSIAN SLAVES, WHO MIXED AND ASSIMILATED WITH TURKS AND DILUTING THEIR MONGOLOID DNA

" During the first half of the 19th century alone, some one million Persians, as well as an unknown number of Russians, were enslaved and transported to Central Asian khanates.[33][34] When the Russian troops took Khiva in 1898 there were 29,300 Persian slaves, captured by Turkoman raiders. According of Josef Wolff (Report of 1843–1845) the population of the Khanate of  Bukhara was 1,200,000, of whom 200,000 were Persian slaves.[35]  "

Source:^ Mayhew, Bradley. "Fabled Cities of Central Asia: Samarkand, Bukhara, Khiva: Robin Magowan, Vadim E. Gippenreiter". Amazon.com. Retrieved 4 December 2011.
^ Report of Josef Wolff 1843–1845
^ "Slave of the Caucasus". BBC News. 1


Edited by MrButlerKing - 14-Mar-2013 at 19:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2013 at 21:49
BK, you might not fully understand the full meaning of this, if not, ask around.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2013 at 21:56
Originally posted by MrButlerKing


I mean't Turkish people want to say Turkic people were Caucasoid but they were not. Turkish people today are not even real Turks, they are primary descendants of Anatolians who mixed with a very large number of Turkmen who were part Mongoloid.
 

This is exactly what I mean, pseudo science mixed with ideology and some kind of ethnic-nationalism. 

Nobody said Turks are Caucasoid or Mongoloid, your talking about Eurasia where exactly is the boundary where 'Caucasoid' becomes 'Mongoloid' where is it? 

The region where Turks are from is inbetween Caucasoid/Mongoloid people, it's very plausible in fact it would be a miracle for Turks not to have elements of both. 

Who are you to determine who is or isn't a real Turk? do you know how Turks looked prior to the Mongol invasion? 

Why do the most populous Turkish group the Oghuz for the most part look pretty similar? why is it that the Turks who fled from the Mongols look pretty similar? we are talking numbers around 100-150 million! a huge population mass. 

So one day Anatolians decided they would become Turks... common... your telling me sedentary, educated city folk in Anatolian cities which were among the most advanced on Earth decided they were going to adopt the way of nomadic warriors within a few decades? 

Because a century after the Turks arrived in Anatolia there was such a change that Europeans called the land Turchia, it's not a term coined by the Turks. 

What is a Turk? if someone says they are a Turk, speaks Turkish as their mother tongue, there parents were Turks etc etc who are you to say they aren't Turks? 

Turks traditionally had no concept of 'pure blood' they practiced marrying outside of the tribe, mixing was very much encouraged and they were right as it is more healthy to bring new genes in.


It doesn't matter their still a mixed group, Turkish should be considered Caucasoid with slight mongoloid admixture. But Turkmen should be consider mixed, if we consider them as Caucasoid because they are closer to Caucasoid than many hollywood celebrities who are 1/4 Chinese, 1/3 Japanese, or almost 1/2 Korean should all be considered Caucasoid.pe, but they are still caucasoid. Because their mongoloid structure is less than 25%. 

Turks from Turkey I can agree although Mongoloid admixture can range in Turkey from province to province, some province shows Turkish people are 15-20% Mongoloid on average.  That means that many of the  Turkmen/Sejuks who conquered Turkey would have been from 30-40% Mongoloid.
 

Comparing todays Mongoloid Caucosoid etc is a red herring, post-Mongol invasion its difficult to get a true grasp of the demographic change which took place. A lot of the male population was exterminated, Ceghiz Kagan raped so many women that today he has 20 million descendants. 

Measuring Turkishness by how Mongol a person looks is a red herring argument. Shouldn't Chinese be the real Turks then...

Oghuz originated from what eastern Kazakhstan and expanded south to Turkmenistan and mixed the indeniousness Iranic people.
 


Comparing todays Mongoloid Caucosoid etc is a red herring, post-Mongol invasion its difficult to get a true grasp of the demographic change which to 

Again your confusing pre-Mongol Kazakistan with post-Mongol Kazakistan. 

Also Iranic people if you go back far enough are also from Eurasia/Central Asia so there is another red herring. 


Edited by Bulldog - 14-Mar-2013 at 22:01
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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Knight
Knight


Joined: 27-Jan-2011
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 64
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2013 at 01:08
Dear bulldog, you should at least know that you are dealing with a troll whos sole purpose is trolling, don't waste your time.
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