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Allied war crimes during World War II

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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Allied war crimes during World War II
    Posted: 10-Feb-2013 at 20:15
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Ntl.....it will serve you well even an as an amateur. To not only learn what it is but to practice it's principals. Why? It will lend credibility to your theorems and presentation-debate in their defense.

Later I've read something about historical method and found is nothing new to me, is about how to avoid misiterpretations, something I was aware of as result of quite a lot of historical scientific studies, polemics etc.





And then, by comparing and contrasting it; to like events in the same era....you just might be able to objectively determine if the events were not only morally repugnant at the time.

I heard this sort of argument so often from Muslims trying to defend Muhammad's action, especially sexual relations with a 9 yo child, that I formed a big reserve for this idea.

I think is false, what we perceive as wrong was similarly perceived by precedent generations, being something harmful for some human beings. Btw, I don't see morals as something abstract, but as a practical way of protecting human beings' integrity and well-being.





But beware the pit trap of attempting to moralize an action of a military operation versus that of one in direct violation of well recognized international and national, civil and military law, without a thorough examination of the same.

You missuderstood me. I just tried to tell that German, Romanian victims of the war must be seen with the same compasion like Jews and others. None were worse than others. The adhesion of large masses to a criminal ideology didn't succeed because, say, Germans were genetically more evil than other nations. It was just a cultural context that lead to that mistake. Neither are today Germans worse than other nations.




Edited by Menumorut - 10-Feb-2013 at 20:16

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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2013 at 22:15
Originally posted by Menumorut

Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Ntl.....it will serve you well even an as an amateur. To not only learn what it is but to practice it's principals. Why? It will lend credibility to your theorems and presentation-debate in their defense.

Later I've read something about historical method and found is nothing new to me, is about how to avoid misinterpretations, something I was aware of as result of quite a lot of historical scientific studies, polemics etc.

 
 
 
No. Menumorut it deals significantly more then with just simple historical misinterpretations. It deals with examination of sources and their criticisms-examination of evidence types and veracity and reliability-provenance-historical reasoning-what are facts versus supposition etc. to name but a small portion.
 
Which is why most people allow their emotion to oversway the scientific in the 'method's' approach. And that's fine if that's their principal motivation or agenda. Or in an attempt to revise accordingly an accepted scholastic theorem. And in particular, Involving an issue/s that invloves the percieved reputation of and as a result of a nation states collective actions or individuals in their service. In either case it usually ends up fallacious or frivolus and remains an easy tool for the apologist.
 
Their wrong..simply because their at that point, not representing or presenting the factual history of an event; but that version, which they wish to be the history of an event.





And then, by comparing and contrasting it; to like events in the same era....you just might be able to objectively determine if the events were not only morally repugnant at the time.

I heard this sort of argument so often from Muslims trying to defend Muhammad's action, especially sexual relations with a 9 yo child, that I formed a big reserve for this idea.
 
 
Not surprising. As cultural and sociological development varied widely in the ancient world as regards sexual practices and the minimum participatory age based on many different cultural, environmental and theological factors. The fact that 1500 years later; you might feel it was wrong or pedophilic or sick and disgusting is not only immaterial as an amateur historian but defines your lack of objective use of the method as well. Historians at their finest moments do not attempt to inject their personal views of moralization into the research of the topic.
 
 
And especially if the context and era are in opposition as to the beliefs of the societies in question. Unless it's in an effort to identify historical moral developement in varying cultures (or at different points in time within those cultures) and they are using their own personal expierence as an an example of comparison and contrast...but even then...it's not their job to moralize on a superior versus inferior moral system. That my friend is the job of theologians and philophsers. And they very rarely concern themseves with objectivity.
 
 
The job of the historian, and as far as I'm concerned, the interested layman as well, is to report as objectively as possible, what he or she has examined and drawn a conclusion about.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


I think is false, what we perceive as wrong was similarly perceived by precedent generations, being something harmful for some human beings. With, I don't see morals as something abstract, but as a practical way of protecting human beings' integrity and well-being.





But beware the pit trap of attempting to moralize an action of a military operation versus that of one in direct violation of well recognized international and national, civil and military law, without a thorough examination of the same.

You misunderstood me. I just tried to tell that German, Romanian victims of the war must be seen with the same compassion like Jews and others. None were worse than others. The adhesion of large masses to a criminal ideology didn't succeed because, say, Germans were genetically more evil than other nations. It was just a cultural context that lead to that mistake. Neither are today Germans worse than other nations.




Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 11-Feb-2013 at 04:42
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2013 at 22:38
Originally posted by Mountain Man

Fortunately, CV has figured out "where this is going", because I haven't.  So far I haven't identified a specific argument beyond the originally post.

Statement:  The Allies also committed war crimes during WWII.

Response: Yes, but not to the degree their enemies or Soviet Russia did, in defiance of established principles of military justice and the Hague Convention, and not as national policy.

Rebuttal: Some incidents referred to, but nothing that matches the degree historically attributed to aforementioned culprits.

Arguments/rebuttals beyond that:  None that specifically rebuts anything so far, nor anything that advances the position of the original poster. 

Warning by moderator: 
So for those out there with ulterior motives that would attempt to ride this horse onto a different track?
Which would would constitute CoDE violations that might include trolling and anti-nationalistic rhetoric, covert anti-semitism, etc.

Procedural query:  Is insisting that the Allies were as bad as the enemy despite overwhelming historical evidence to the contrary "anti-nationalistic rhetoric" or "trolling"?
 
 
Not at this point. But I also know, as the man once said reference pornography: ''But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that.''
—Justice Potter Stewart,
 
 
The measure used, in my case, is in the excessive number of times a point is made without either further elaboration or willingness to accept counter point and or rejection of it's substance. And I'll use the terms I used in my above post response. When those posts and or examples of 'insistence' become fallacious and or frivolous to the point of repetition; then it can be 'id' as trolling and argumentative rhetoric that serves no purpose. And you already know, having trod these boards with you and others for many years, that I know...when that is occurring.


 
 
 
As for "anti-Semitism", its existence in varying forms and to various degrees is a matter of historical record on the part of both Allies and Axis forces and governments, but not the specific focus of the OP; therefore, it is not germane to the discussion.
 
 
 
 
Agreed. And if that's an intent, then it needs to develop into a separate thread...unless there's an honest attempt to objectively examine the issues in their entirety. Into when, where and why it might have occurred. And then offer credibile examples of Allied perpetrators, acting in an antisemitic fashion.
 
 
 
  It is interesting to note that social mores, prejudices and attitudes were entirely different during the Second World War among the populations of all of the major belligerents.  For example, carpet bombing of civilian populations was considered a valid part of the all-out war against the enemy and their industrial capabilities.

 
 
Would that be considered an accurate summation of the discussion to date, CV?
 
 
That has been the consensus by the mainstream professional for many a moon. Ntl ,to give credit where it's due; Menumorut has a point. For whatever reason, the 'other side' of the atrocities coin is not often discussed for what ever reason. Perhaps it's because of the old adage of who writes history.
 
Perhaps it's racially motivated and bigotries exist no doubt. But what it wont become here, as long as I got them 5 green stars, is a venue for covert antisemitism involving international relations in the ME between the nation state of Israel and it's neighbors, post 14 May 1948.

Because at that point, like Justice Stewart, I'll know it for what it is.

And at the very least that violation would be considered more then mere trolling.


 
 
 
Perhaps it might be helpful if the OP would clarify his intent so that the rest of us can stay on track?




Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 11-Feb-2013 at 04:57
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  Quote Azita Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2013 at 08:06

lirelou  & Mountain Man 

your passions are inflamed, I can understand that, it isn't easy to read such unpleasantness about ones countrymen, perhaps i should have used a softer approach.

If i have been to harsh and you feel an apology is needed, you have it unreservedly.

I cant say that i have ever heard of Michael Walsh, from what you show, he is not someone i would read.

Do you think he might be using the Red cross report in an attempt to bring some truth to his writings?

.......................................................................................................

 What are your thoughts regarding these claims regarding the camps?

 Do you perhaps have counter evidence? 

Certainly the POW held in England were treated well, many many choose to stay.

 Why were the captured Germans reclassified as DEF and not POW, was that to circumvent the Geneva conventions?

 From memory ( i will take what ever correction is needed) the French used POW to clear mine fields, as in march over this field please.............

 German POW in England were used a "slave" labour and even built Wembley stadium.

 The French send thousands of POW of to the Soviet Union in the full knowledge it was a death sentence.

 Menumorut, might have an agenda as you like to say, but i cant see it.

Seems acceptable to discuss German/ soviet/Japanese war crimes, but not American or British.

If this topic is to sensitive for you I will desist, again Sorry, i should have been more considerate of your fragility regarding such issues.

 Azita

 PS: if you need to make a counter claim of War crimes with Menumorut, may i suggest you research the Odessa massacre.

 



Edited by Azita - 11-Feb-2013 at 08:10
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2013 at 12:40
Azita, in re your:  "I cant say that i have ever heard of Michael Walsh, from what you show, he is not someone i would read."

Well, Azita, here you go. Apparently you and he read the same sources:  http://www.whale.to/b/walsh11.html



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  Quote Azita Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2013 at 13:04
Wont bother, but thank you anyway.

What are your thoughts about the Camps?
Why do you think Ike classified them as DEF?

Have you managed to look up any of the pictorial evidence and personal accounts of the camps?


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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2013 at 17:32
Originally posted by Azita

lirelou  & Mountain Man 

your passions are inflamed, I can understand that, it isn't easy to read such unpleasantness about ones countrymen, perhaps i should have used a softer approach.

If i have been to harsh and you feel an apology is needed, you have it unreservedly.

I cant say that i have ever heard of Michael Walsh, from what you show, he is not someone i would read.

Do you think he might be using the Red cross report in an attempt to bring some truth to his writings?

.......................................................................................................

 What are your thoughts regarding these claims regarding the camps?

 Do you perhaps have counter evidence? 

Certainly the POW held in England were treated well, many many choose to stay.

 Why were the captured Germans reclassified as DEF and not POW, was that to circumvent the Geneva conventions?

 From memory ( i will take what ever correction is needed) the French used POW to clear mine fields, as in march over this field please.............

 German POW in England were used a "slave" labour and even built Wembley stadium.

 The French send thousands of POW of to the Soviet Union in the full knowledge it was a death sentence.

 Menumorut, might have an agenda as you like to say, but i cant see it.

Seems acceptable to discuss German/ soviet/Japanese war crimes, but not American or British.

If this topic is to sensitive for you I will desist, again Sorry, i should have been more considerate of your fragility regarding such issues.

 Azita

 PS: if you need to make a counter claim of War crimes with Menumorut, may i suggest you research the Odessa massacre.

 


It's disgraceful comparing the Nazis' slave labour with POWs being put to work by the British. The captured Nazis were the ones who did the damage to Britain's cities in the first place.
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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2013 at 21:24
The topic isn't "sensitive", but your approach is offensive to me - coming from a military family that has served with honor and distinction since the Civil War -  so I will accept your offer to cease and desist.

Thank you for your understanding.

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  Quote Azita Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2013 at 11:15
Nick, not sure i actually "compared" the two , merely stated the fact, even using the term slave in quotation marks.

Am i in error regarding German forced labour building Wembley?
I suspect they were rather better fed and housed than those in German camps..............

Also would all those Germans have been Nazis, Guilty of Bombing Britain?

Anyway moving on.

How do members feel the about the killing of Germans at Dachau, there is as im sure you will know, pictorial evidence of this.

Again can i state:-

Originally posted by Azita

Just some points, with no moral discussion yet. 


I think some might have missed that comment before, so I restate it.

Question, If it were YOU, after years of desensitising war, that game across this scene, what would you have done to those that ran this camp, inflicting such suffering?
What would YOU do?

Azita
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2013 at 16:55
Originally posted by Azita

Nick, not sure i actually "compared" the two , merely stated the fact, even using the term slave in quotation marks.

Am i in error regarding German forced labour building Wembley?
I suspect they were rather better fed and housed than those in German camps..............

Also would all those Germans have been Nazis, Guilty of Bombing Britain?

Anyway moving on.

How do members feel the about the killing of Germans at Dachau, there is as im sure you will know, pictorial evidence of this.

Again can i state:-

Originally posted by Azita

Just some points, with no moral discussion yet. 


I think some might have missed that comment before, so I restate it.

Question, If it were YOU, after years of desensitising war, that game across this scene, what would you have done to those that ran this camp, inflicting such suffering?
What would YOU do?

Azita

Of course these Nazis were responsible for the bombing of Britain. Many POWs in the early years of the War were Luftwaffe bomber crews. It wasn't slavery, but closer to the forced labor of convicts, intended to keep them too exhausted to cause trouble, and to punish them for their crimes.
Killing Nazis at Dachau wasn't a war crime: they deserved to die for the brutality they inflicted on the Jewish prisoners. I always thought the Nuremberg trials were a pretentious waste of time: it would have been better to simply line the Nazis up against a wall and shoot them (as the Italian partisans did to Mussolini), or let their victims take revenge upon them


Edited by Nick1986 - 12-Feb-2013 at 16:55
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2013 at 20:12
Mountain Man, the "facts" we're seeing here, polled from various web sites, have their origin in a book by a Canadian named James Becque. you can find a wiki article that outlines the challenges against it here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Other_Losses

The bottom line is that no mainstream historian accepts the charges made by Becque. You can find a review by Stephen Ambrose himself here:  http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/b/bacque-james/ambrose-001.html



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  Quote Azita Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2013 at 20:33
Originally posted by Azita

 First i want to make this clear we have James Bacque book, which is discredited..

Main stream historians? oh you mean like Stephen Ambrose or Niall Ferguson? (as quoted)

perhaps American general Clay is also incorrect? as are the red cross.

As i said i know its hard to think of your nation doing these things, but denial does not mean they didn't happen,

Would it help if i post the pictures of the camps?

Nick how many German bomber crew were held in England compared to infantry?

were ALL Germans Nazis then?

Originally posted by Nick1986


forced labor of convicts, intended to keep them too exhausted to cause trouble, and to punish them for their crimes. 

err and what does the Geneva convention say about that?

Originally posted by Nick1986


fbetter to simply line the Nazis up against a wall and shoot them

quite right, just as the Nazis did to there victims........oh wait wasn't it a war crime when they did that.......?


Edited by Azita - 12-Feb-2013 at 20:40
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2013 at 10:45
In re:  "Main stream historians? oh you mean like Stephen Ambrose or Niall Ferguson? (as quoted)

perhaps American general Clay is also incorrect? as are the red cross.

As i said i know its hard to think of your nation doing these things, but denial does not mean they didn't happen,

Would it help if i post the pictures of the camps?

Nick how many German bomber crew were held in England compared to infantry?

were ALL Germans Nazis then?"

Sorry, Azita, but your righteous indignation loses me. Whatever Ambrose's faults, no one has faulted the facts of his history. Rather they've faulted who published them first. And it wasn't just Ambrose, but a panel of known historians who've shredded Becque's "facts".

Photographs provide no context. You can pick and choose photos like you can facts. Becque is grinding an ax, just as you are. I've actually known a few survivors of the German camps, just as I used to work with an American, born in Milwaulkee, who was captured at the end of the war while serving in the German Army (his parents had returned to Germany in '36). Henry spent some time as a POW, and ended up making a career n the American Army as a intelligence interrogator. I also served with a former German fallschirmjaeger who had jumped at Crete in '41, and another who had been a 17 year old kid soldier in the Waffen SS in 1945. They never spoke of their time in the camps, but both made careers in that same American Army. I also served at Fort Douglas, Utah for a few years, a former German POW camp from both WWI and WWII. They had a nice memorial to those POWs in their cemetery. Really, one of the nicest posts in the Army. 

You aren't really cherry-picking, you're just rehashing others' arguments that have serious flaws and attract the likes of David Duke. 
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  Quote Azita Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2013 at 11:14
How many times do i have to say that i agree that James Bacque is not accurate?

Your final word is that the camps did NOT exist.

Fine.

Can you show where i have shown "righteous indignation" please?
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2013 at 11:40
Originally posted by Azita

Originally posted by Azita

 First i want to make this clear we have James Bacque book, which is discredited..

Main stream historians? oh you mean like Stephen Ambrose or Niall Ferguson? (as quoted)

perhaps American general Clay is also incorrect? as are the red cross.

As i said i know its hard to think of your nation doing these things, but denial does not mean they didn't happen,

Would it help if i post the pictures of the camps?

Nick how many German bomber crew were held in England compared to infantry?

were ALL Germans Nazis then?

Originally posted by Nick1986


forced labor of convicts, intended to keep them too exhausted to cause trouble, and to punish them for their crimes. 

err and what does the Geneva convention say about that?

Originally posted by Nick1986


fbetter to simply line the Nazis up against a wall and shoot them

quite right, just as the Nazis did to there victims........oh wait wasn't it a war crime when they did that.......?

Did the Nazis follow the Geneva convention when they gassed Jews, raped Russian women, and massacred children in revenge for insurgent attacks? The British wouldn't have captured many German infantrymen until the North African campaign. Nazi prisoners were treated a lot better than they treated captured Poles and Russians
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  Quote Azita Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2013 at 12:13
So as the Nazis didn't follow the conventions, that justifys when the allies didn't?

Again i ask were ALL Germans Nazis?
Were all Germans guilty of war crimes and as such worthy of bad treatment?

As the British didnt capture many German infantry until 1942, does that mean that German soldiers  were NOT later put to work ( after the war) as forced labour to build Wembley?

Originally posted by Nick1986

. Nazi prisoners were treated a lot better than they treated captured Poles and Russians


Does that include those subjected to summary  execution?
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2013 at 08:58
Originally posted by Azita

So as the Nazis didn't follow the conventions, that justifys when the allies didn't?

Again i ask were ALL Germans Nazis?
Were all Germans guilty of war crimes and as such worthy of bad treatment?

As the British didnt capture many German infantry until 1942, does that mean that German soldiers  were NOT later put to work ( after the war) as forced labour to build Wembley?

Originally posted by Nick1986

. Nazi prisoners were treated a lot better than they treated captured Poles and Russians


Does that include those subjected to summary  execution?

Most Germans were indeed Nazis, or at least supported the regime. They were war criminals because they marched into Poland, bombed London and committed many other acts of aggression. It was perfectly acceptable to force captured German soldiers to build Wembley as they did much worse things to their own prisoners. Many Nazis who were summarily executed were SS men and as such deserved to die for the many atrocities they committed.
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  Quote Azita Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2013 at 09:59
Originally posted by Nick1986

 They were war criminals because they marched into Poland, bombed London and committed many other acts of aggression.

Using the same standards. does that mean that UK/US troops that invaded Iraq in 2003 are also war criminals?

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  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2013 at 14:59
Originally posted by Azita:  If this topic is to sensitive for you I will desist.

And yet here you are, still at it despite being asked to keep your word and stop.

I repeat- I find your comments offensive and request that you honor your agreement to cease such posts.




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  Quote Azita Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2013 at 15:35
just answering others, if that is ok. I had agreed I would stop answering your posts, err , which im now doing.......
I had tried to move on to other subjects, but the thread was dragged back to the Rhine meadow camps.

BTW what exactly do you find offensive?
The fact that US troops committed these acts or that i have mentioned them?

If you have some, "shadows" in your past, then perhaps you would like to share, so we can better understand why you are getting so upset.

Again, Why is it Ok to post about German/Japanese/soviet war crimes but NOT American?

If you don't like a thread why read it?

I would never normally use wikipedia as a reference, but it seems to be popular here, so:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinwiesenlager

Its much "milder" than other allegations, so shall we settle at that?

Also:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8564401.stm

Should settle the POW Wembley question.

Nick, most Germans were not Nazis, at its height the NSDAP had 8.5 million members, during most of  the war membership was  5-10% of the population (??)







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