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Baal Melqart View Drop Down
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Posts: 869 		  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Flat Earth Society
    Posted: 11-Dec-2012 at 18:16


I'm sure many of you know that there is a group out there who go by the name of ''The Flat Earth Society'' and that they believe exactly what their name would insinuate. I don't need to comment on how much denial one needs to be in to hold such a belief but basically these people have a very acute paranoia when it comes to the government and common knowledge.

So what I'm interested in is this. Say these guys are right about there being a worldwide conspiracy trying to dupe us all into believing the world is spherical, for whatever reason that is... Could one verify that the earth is indeed spherical by scientific observation without relying on satellite images from space?
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Centrix Vigilis View Drop Down
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Posts: 7392 		  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2012 at 18:43
Yes.
 
The easiest would be circumnavigation of the earth viz nautical or aerial assets. And recording the process.
 
 
Of course the ''FE's'' would believe the recording process was either false or 'doctored'. But yes....it would be easy to circumnavigate using even the compasses and nautical charts of 200 years ago (even aircraft pilots can use nautical charts as a base) from Point A back to Point A.
 
 
The identification and use of latitude and longitude, coupled with meteorological studies of winds-weather and the study of gravitational fields and astronomical effects of the moon on tides; coupled to the studies of water-oceans (currents and thermal effects for navigation for example) has already answered the question.
 
 


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 11-Dec-2012 at 18:43
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Posts: 6084 		  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2012 at 21:21
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Yes.
 
The easiest would be circumnavigation of the earth viz nautical or aerial assets. And recording the process.
 
 
Of course the ''FE's'' would believe the recording process was either false or 'doctored'. But yes....it would be easy to circumnavigate using even the compasses and nautical charts of 200 years ago (even aircraft pilots can use nautical charts as a base) from Point A back to Point A.
 
 
The identification and use of latitude and longitude, coupled with meteorological studies of winds-weather and the study of gravitational fields and astronomical effects of the moon on tides; coupled to the studies of water-oceans (currents and thermal effects for navigation for example) has already answered the question.
 
 
Not a bad solution, CV, but maybe slightly over elaborate . A simpler solution would also be of a nautical theme, although of a shorter duration. One boat sailing in a straight line out into the open sea will disappear eventually, but will disappear hull first. Although the boat and crew would have to keep an eye on the land they sailed from disappearing totally before turning around and sailing back, so those on land don't suspect the boat had disappeared due to sinking.
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Posts: 7392 		  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2012 at 21:31
It's a good one Alani but alas insufficient. For the flat earthers would merely believe the boat, while indeed disappearing from sight for a short duration. Had not sailed sufficiently  far enough out onto the seas to 'fall off the edge'
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Posts: 6084 		  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2012 at 21:53
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

It's a good one Alani but alas insufficient. For the flat earthers would merely believe the boat, while indeed disappearing from sight for a short duration. Had not sailed sufficiently  far enough out onto the seas to 'fall off the edge'
I did say that as the boat is disappearing it disappears hull first, and that would be until the very top of the boat vanishes too. Add to this calm seas, and it might be a little difficult to explain how a calm stretch of water on what Flat Earther would say is flat earth would allow that to happen.
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Posts: 7392 		  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2012 at 22:30
I did say that as the boat is disappearing it disappears hull first, and that would be until the very top of the boat vanishes too
Yup you did. And it remains a good one...but still insufficient as per my former. As a result of their ingrained intransigence....if nothing else. 
But most likely they would retort, and counter, that it might have been an optical illusion. Or inability to see beyond a normal unaided, human perspective and ability....And then....revert to their belief that the boat still ''Had not sailed sufficiently far enough out onto the seas to 'fall off the edge''.
Consequently as a result of the latter they would continue to contend that their hypothesis has still not been disproved.
 
 
 
The best solution, ala my original, is to require major leaders of their position-beliefs, accompany the circumnavigation and view the process themselves. But even then there is no guarantee that they might not believe they had still not been victims of a covert delusion-hoax-conspiracy during the trip.
 
I can see one now..... claiming, that even though it might have taken days or hours depending on the vehicle, they had been drugged or medicated when required to eat or drink. Such is the mind of the fanatic.
 
 
 
 
And for that...I leave it to the psycho-babblers to earn their living in providing them therapy. Alas that would probably not be concerned with the original problem-question of the veracity of their theory. And consequently also falls short.
 
 
 
 
More then like, the therapy would concentrate on why they had Freudian sexual fantasies about their mothers or a Pavlovian response-instinct; etc.etc... which has led to or in their on going denial.
 
 
 
 
Moral of the story?
 
Drink heavily, disregard the psycho-babblers and, believe what ever the hell ya want.


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 11-Dec-2012 at 22:34
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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Posts: 6084 		  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2012 at 23:09
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Yup you did. And it remains a good one...but still insufficient as per my former. As a result of their ingrained intransigence....if nothing else. 
But most likely they would retort, and counter, that it might have been an optical illusion. Or inability to see beyond a normal unaided, human perspective and ability....And then....revert to their belief that the boat still ''Had not sailed sufficiently far enough out onto the seas to 'fall off the edge''.
Consequently as a result of the latter they would continue to contend that their hypothesis has still not been disproved.
 
 
 
The best solution, ala my original, is to require major leaders of their position-beliefs, accompany the circumnavigation and view the process themselves. But even then there is no guarantee that they might not believe they had still not been victims of a covert delusion-hoax-conspiracy during the trip.
 
I can see one now..... claiming, that even though it might have taken days or hours depending on the vehicle, they had been drugged or medicated when required to eat or drink. Such is the mind of the fanatic.
 
 
 
 
And for that...I leave it to the psycho-babblers to earn their living in providing them therapy. Alas that would probably not be concerned with the original problem-question of the veracity of their theory. And consequently also falls short.
 
 
 
 
More then like, the therapy would concentrate on why they had Freudian sexual fantasies about their mothers or a Pavlovian response-instinct; etc.etc... which has led to or in their on going denial.
 
 
 
 
Moral of the story?
 
Drink heavily, disregard the psycho-babblers and, believe what ever the hell ya want.
I thought you may say something like that, CV, and then a little bit of inspiration brought about a solution to me. Instead of the Flat Earth Society member being on dry land observing the boat, it makes more sense placing the Flat Earth Society member in the boat observing the land. That way we know they are taking into account for a fixed point, the land itself. In this way when the land disappears totally from sight it must be due to a curvature, and when the member returns they can observe that the same piece of land hasn't fallen off of the end of the world. 
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Posts: 869 		  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2012 at 11:43


You mentioned some really good points CV which would be enough to prove that the earth is indeed not flat. But then as you said, they would claim that they were drugged or whatever.

As to seeing either the boat or the shore disappearing in the horizon, this is not enough for FE. They counter it by claiming that the earth doesn't have to be curved for such things to occur because one cannot see the entire world from one fixed point, even if the world is indeed flat. So their claim is basically that even on a flat earth you would see landmasses disappear due to some sort of optical effect. This is perhaps the only reasonable argument I've heard from them.

The funny thing I should also mention is that they believe the entire circle of the earth is surrounded by icebergs so one can't ''fall off'' per se.





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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2012 at 13:24
Originally posted by Baal Melqart



I'm sure many of you know that there is a group out there who go by the name of ''The Flat Earth Society'' and that they believe exactly what their name would insinuate. I don't need to comment on how much denial one needs to be in to hold such a belief but basically these people have a very acute paranoia when it comes to the government and common knowledge.

So what I'm interested in is this. Say these guys are right about there being a worldwide conspiracy trying to dupe us all into believing the world is spherical, for whatever reason that is... Could one verify that the earth is indeed spherical by scientific observation without relying on satellite images from space?



 
 
Most folks I've known put this group in the same catagory as the people who think animals should wear clothes, or the procrastinators society.  Tongue in cheek, not really serious.
 
It was the Greeks, I think, who first calculated the circumference of the planet.  I believe you'll find that even before Columbus, flat earth believers were in the minority
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 1748 		  Quote Toltec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2012 at 14:16
Originally posted by Baal Melqart



You mentioned some really good points CV which would be enough to prove that the earth is indeed not flat. But then as you said, they would claim that they were drugged or whatever.

As to seeing either the boat or the shore disappearing in the horizon, this is not enough for FE. They counter it by claiming that the earth doesn't have to be curved for such things to occur because one cannot see the entire world from one fixed point, even if the world is indeed flat. So their claim is basically that even on a flat earth you would see landmasses disappear due to some sort of optical effect. This is perhaps the only reasonable argument I've heard from them.

The funny thing I should also mention is that they believe the entire circle of the earth is surrounded by icebergs so one can't ''fall off'' per se.







Being a sailor, buoys at sea have heights, their heights are marked on charts and you can verify this personally as you sail past. As you sail towards them the top becomes visible and gradually more and more. You are basically seeing the curvature of the earth, you can then prove this is not an optical illusion as when the sun goes down (the sun has long set when it is still visible on the horizon) with a simple piece of mathematical triangulation, top of the boy, sea level to earth's curvature and work out your position. If no earth curvature the equations fails. 
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?

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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2012 at 14:29
It doesn't make sense. If the earth really is flat, why would conspirators go to so much effort to trick us into thinking the world is round?
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Posts: 7392 		  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2012 at 14:30
Excellent Toltec. Alas you and I would still be ignored as the Fe's are probably reluctant to believe in concepts of spatial/angular geometry and trig. Gets back to that intrangence. After all higher math is a mental concept and subsequent construct. True you get demonstrate mathematics but to an FE? doubtful.
 
But it brings to mind red's reference; twas indeed my old friend Eratosthenes who originally dumbfounded the earliest version of the FES. His is quite the story.
 
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2012 at 14:33
Originally posted by Nick1986

It doesn't make sense. If the earth really is flat, why would conspirators go to so much effort to trick us into thinking the world is round?
 
 
Say what?Confused
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2012 at 14:36
Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by Nick1986

It doesn't make sense. If the earth really is flat, why would conspirators go to so much effort to trick us into thinking the world is round?
 
 
Say what?Confused

Why would all the scientists tell us the world is round if it's not? What is the point of concealing the apparent truth?
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Posts: 7392 		  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2012 at 14:39
Originally posted by Nick1986

It doesn't make sense. If the earth really is flat, why would conspirators go to so much effort to trick us into thinking the world is round?
 
Panic...universal chaos and fear....dogs fornicating with cats....a 'ghostbuster's defense if ya will.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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Posts: 873 		  Quote Mountain Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2012 at 16:17
IIRC, CV, the Greeks figured this one out mathematically a very long time ago.

Is there some actual question about the math?
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Posts: 7392 		  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2012 at 16:23
''twas indeed my old friend Eratosthenes who originally dumbfounded the earliest version of the FES. His is quite the story.''
Father of geography did it. And no.. unless ya subscribe as a FE'er there is probably no question on the math.
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Posts: 6084 		  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2012 at 18:03
Originally posted by Baal Melqart

As to seeing either the boat or the shore disappearing in the horizon, this is not enough for FE. They counter it by claiming that the earth doesn't have to be curved for such things to occur because one cannot see the entire world from one fixed point, even if the world is indeed flat. So their claim is basically that even on a flat earth you would see landmasses disappear due to some sort of optical effect. This is perhaps the only reasonable argument I've heard from them.
Two points here, Baal Melqart, the first being an object disappearing into the distance on the flat would get smaller proportionately, and not disappear from sight from the hull upwards. The second point, and the elephant in the room, is an optical effect is an illusion. Now it is true that potentially everything we think we can see could be an illusion. However this argument somewhat undermines their position, as if they are saying they experience the effect/illusion so readily how did they experience the findings for their belief for a flat earth, without the possibility it might have been compromised in the very same way? 
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Posts: 597 		  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2013 at 04:21

They can't deny that the sun and moon are spherical or are they flat discs according to them?

 
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Edited by Sander - 03-Dec-2013 at 04:23
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2013 at 11:39
I always thought those folks were spoofing, kind of like the outfit that wants to put pants on animals.
They can't be serious.
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