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Topic ClosedTurks = Mongoloid mix DNA shows

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Turks = Mongoloid mix DNA shows
    Posted: 23-Dec-2012 at 23:33
It's not South Asian.

It originated from Pashtun, Burusho, Dardic ect people


Edited by MrButlerKing - 23-Dec-2012 at 23:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Dec-2012 at 08:00
Very interesting. Where did these data come from? What were the sample sizes?

In Turkey I personally consider the majority of the people to be 'Turks of convenience' (no offence intended), the descendants of assimilated peoples who nowadays think they are Turks. The same point has already been made. Turkic types I notice, empirically, predominate in certain regions, which are as you would expect, centres of the Ottoman influence. Istanbul has many more "asiatic" types in evidence to my mind, than say, Izmir, and furthermore a particular "look" that says to me Ottoman. I can't quite describe it (perhaps look at Tolga Zengin, to see what I mean). I am not counting the immigrant Uzbeks and Turkmens (they are quite easy to spot), but perhaps 1 in 20/30 of the Istanbullus would not look out of place at a Tokyo street cafe, or an Almaty disco. Other types could easily pass for Native American. Other places where the type is quite evident might include Adyin, Konya, Bursa, parts of the east black sea coast. Among my own relatives are types that could be easily mistaken as Japanese (others as British!).

NB. Japanese specifically, because they are different of course to Chinese, SE Asians, etc., who look little like Turks, generally having flatter noses and rounder features.

By the same token, elsewhere I notice entire towns of fair-eyed, long-faced Balkan/Dinaric types, with not a suggestion of Asia about them.

So, if you could for the sake of argument, unravel the "real" Oguz-Osmanlis from the "Turks of convenience" that surround them (again, no offence intended) I believe you would find a tribe of a far more asiatic genotype than the data on the OP suggests. The point being, that at some point the Oguz that migrated to Anatolia with their pointy hats and steppe ponies, were of some asiatic predominance (with Persian mixture presumably), very close to the altaic types, and not some crazy mixture of Greek, Circassian and Albanian. They did suffer of course, from a weakness for exotic western beauties (still do!), and apparently cared little about preserving their "purity". Hence even these types are nowadays inevitably hybridised to some degree and the face of the original Oguz-Osmanlis may forever be gone.

I avoid using the word Mongoloid, because it confuses people who keep thinking Turks look mongoloid because of contact with Mongols. This surely did happen, but I am guessing that the actual Mongolian contribution to Turkey's gene pool to be rather negligible, since they were not there long, apparently did not settle in significant numbers and a great part of the "Mongol" armies were made up of Turkic vassals.


Edited by SultanHaluk - 24-Dec-2012 at 08:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2012 at 12:43
Originally posted by Vdkn67


Ottoman Empire was not national state of Turks.
 
After collapse of Ottoman Empire, on 24.July 1923. Turkey was recognized as national state of Turks.


Yes, but just for ottoman goverment, most of people in Ottoman didn't know Ottoman Turkish. Even there were two different literature cultures in same empire. one for goverment (Divan/Ottoman literature), one for Turks (Turkish folk literature). Ottoman Empire didn't become Turkish state just in one night or one day (24 July 1923). It has deep roots.

Originally posted by Vdkn67


Sultan was God`s agent on earth


Is it? Ottoman Sultans didn't have a power like Pope. They needed the confirmation of Shaykh al-Islām

Originally posted by Vdkn67


If this attitude insults anybody, then seems this forum is not right place for me.


Speaking on web is different than speaking face to face. People are easily becoming rude on net. Just your word ("I thought this forum is somehow connected to history") is unnessary and sarcastic but please don't stop let us know your ideas, we need all other opinions Wink

For example I don't know the date of 24 July 1923. We don't celebrate it. With your help, I know it now. It is date of Treaty of Lausanne. Big smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2012 at 11:00
Originally posted by Nick1986

You've broken no rules so far Vdkn67, but in my experience, threads of this type often turn into flame wars. All members are reminded to respect each other, regardless of whether they agree or not

Ok, this is not my first forum, so I will answer quoting your another post:
Santa was once a real person: a Turkish bishop called Nicholas of Myra.

I am quite sure that this is sentence from daily papers in Great Britain, and it is main reason why I am sarcastic about "connection of this forum with history" This sentence on internet forum seems as propaganda for daily politic use, and has nothing with history learned anywhere in the world, except among "internet warriors"
See, first Oghuz Turks appeared in that region seven centuries later. During life of St. Nicholas that region was called Λυκία (Lycia),  and was populated by Indo-European speakers. (probably Greek or Lycian speakers). Not to mention that "Turkish bishop" is oxymoron: there are no "bishops" in Turkic religion of that time (Tengrism). There are no "bishops" even later, when they adopted Islam, at least four centuries later. So I can understand "Turkish shaman", or "Turkish imam" but I can not understand what is "Turkish bishop".
Now, we came to "disrespect of other co-forumers": How can I respect anybody who posts biased posts, without any respect to history? I am really sorry that I found ignorant quoting BBC articles or wikipedia  as reliable sources.
This search results could be example how ancient Myra was "Turkish"
https://www.google.com/search?q=myra+coins&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=gQu&tbo=u&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=fflb&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=VRrbUKXRI8XNsgaa0oDgCg&ved=0CFQQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=629
Now, if I was not clear about bias, this is quote from  more recent daily news, of course British :
He denies the request is aimed at boosting tourism for the region but says it is simply a human wish.Christmas is not widely celebrated in the Muslim nation of Turkey.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2012 at 19:31
Originally posted by Vdkn67

Originally posted by Nick1986

You've broken no rules so far Vdkn67, but in my experience, threads of this type often turn into flame wars. All members are reminded to respect each other, regardless of whether they agree or not

Ok, this is not my first forum, so I will answer quoting your another post:
Santa was once a real person: a Turkish bishop called Nicholas of Myra.

I am quite sure that this is sentence from daily papers in Great Britain, and it is main reason why I am sarcastic about "connection of this forum with history" This sentence on internet forum seems as propaganda for daily politic use, and has nothing with history learned anywhere in the world, except among "internet warriors"
See, first Oghuz Turks appeared in that region seven centuries later. During life of St. Nicholas that region was called Λυκία (Lycia),  and was populated by Indo-European speakers. (probably Greek or Lycian speakers). Not to mention that "Turkish bishop" is oxymoron: there are no "bishops" in Turkic religion of that time (Tengrism). There are no "bishops" even later, when they adopted Islam, at least four centuries later. So I can understand "Turkish shaman", or "Turkish imam" but I can not understand what is "Turkish bishop".
Now, we came to "disrespect of other co-forumers": How can I respect anybody who posts biased posts, without any respect to history? I am really sorry that I found ignorant quoting BBC articles or wikipedia  as reliable sources.
This search results could be example how ancient Myra was "Turkish"
https://www.google.com/search?q=myra+coins&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=gQu&tbo=u&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=fflb&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=VRrbUKXRI8XNsgaa0oDgCg&ved=0CFQQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=629
Now, if I was not clear about bias, this is quote from  more recent daily news, of course British :
He denies the request is aimed at boosting tourism for the region but says it is simply a human wish.Christmas is not widely celebrated in the Muslim nation of Turkey.


Even moderators make mistakes. Regarding the other topic on Santa Claus, i would change "Turkish" to "Roman" if it was possible, but the forum's software is designed to prevent members editing such old topics as this has been abused in the past
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2012 at 12:27
Originally posted by Vdkn67


Santa was once a real person: a Turkish bishop called Nicholas of Myra.


In this sample term Turkish is just for emphasizing his place origin, not ethnic identity. However as Nick said before term Roman chould be more proper.

Christmas is not widely celebrated in the Muslim nation of Turkey.



How can you be sure that you don't have any bias? We don't need to celebrate Christmas/Noel for Santa. Urban Turks celebrate new year as Christians celebrate Noel 24-25th December.

*The most turkey sells happen in December, because it is common new year dishes in cities.
*New year raffles are very common between classmates. They give presents each other.
*Lighting of streets are very popular in this time of year.
*I wish, I can able to send you a dwarf models pictures in one of the shopping centre in my city.
*A goverment advert in my city
"New year is the time of planting trees, not time of cutting". This is for prevent the illegal tree cuts
*I am not talking about my aunt plastic pine tree which was near 2 meters.
http://statics.magazinkolik.com/Images/news/e/v/emir_berke_noelbaba.jpg A turkish boy with Santa

http://i.ekolay.net/g/2012/5/6/Noel-Baba--taksim--beyo%C4%9Flu--y%C4%B1lba%C5%9F%C4%B1--polis_f39b3058-21ae-4757-83bd-a7affbe6e9fa_4_B4013E6D-1957-4112-BA6E-31B3B72E2F0F.jpg civil polices are making sample operation. They wil be Santa and catch the pickpockets

http://i.ensonhaber.com/resimler/diger/esh8119_6.jpg
but of course there are some protests agaist these acts


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2013 at 15:44
Again your assuming Turks were Mongoloid to start with. 

Being from the Eurasian steppe a Caucasoid/Mongoloid mix is to be expected, it's where the shift happens. 

If you look at descriptions of Gokturks they don't look like Chinese folk, in fact Chinese clearly said they have beards, coloured eyes and were different colours. 

The reason for this confusion IMO is mistaking the descendants of the Mongol Empire with the Turks which preceded them. 

The theory that people in Anatolia stopped speaking their native tongues one day and became fully fledged Turks the next is a preposterous theory which has just been accepted but rarely scrutinised. 

How could a few semi/nomadic Turks from Central Asia ride into Anatolia and have city folk at the drop of a hat become Turks. Especially considering there were no mass assimilation attempts, I mean Turks weren't even too bothered teaching Turkish and like to learn languages like Arabic and Persian themselves. 

Consider most city folk consider non city folk especially nomads especially in that era to be uncivilised savages why on Earth would there be such a mass identity change? and to mass convert religion! did the clergy go on holiday for a few centuries or something.

By the 1300's Europeans were describing Anatolia as Turchia - land of the Turks.  

It's much more plausible that Turks prior to the Mongols looked more like todays Turkmenistan/Oghuz Turks then Mongols. And that there were mass migrations into Anatolia of Turks fleeing. War especially that kind result in mass exoduses of people, it also explains why Turks would uproot and move West. 

Consider there are more Turks in Turkey/Azerbaijan/Iran then all of central asia put together.

 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2013 at 15:36
Development of human race is an interesting subject matter. 

There has been a great deal of research done in recent years because of our development of genetic science. Hopefully, we will be able to sort it out. One thing for sure... We all came out of Africa. 

PBS had an interesting 3 part series recently about the deveopment of human race. Search YouTube. You would find a lot of interesting series between History Channel, Nat Geo and PBS.

Research. :-) 


There was an interesting show on Nat Geo recently...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkexKLCak5M




Edited by JuMong - 16-Mar-2013 at 15:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2014 at 18:12
Were the ottoman turks the same as seljuk turks?  Seems to me both are half mongoloid when they first entered turkey
Mr Butler king maybe you can answer my question as you seem to be an authority on all things turk
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2014 at 09:31
lol, does it matter who were turks mongoloid or european?)))) they proved themselves to be conquerors many times within history, other than that created bright civilisations many times, moreover their ancestors like hunnenreich etc, also proved themselves to be conquerors and as you know the proverb - "Civilisations never create war, but wars create civilisations", meaning their so much waged wars made world to look better as hunnenreich created what is now europe,nations got rid of rome lordship,JenguizHan and Tamerlane created continental unity,scythe and other nomads preserved eurasia from sinification, you see what is now north korea the sinicized country, even mongolia looks far independant and free from china))))
several times i observe europeans envy for nomads brilliant military past, this proves their narrowmindness
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2014 at 14:49
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2014 at 07:00
who are we? islamized Anatolians i believe :D
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2014 at 12:18
Originally posted by Attis of Anatolia

who are we? islamized Anatolians i believe :D


and Who is Anatolian? Big smile

Even Phyrgians or Hittites were foreign
http://www.karabakh.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/map_phrygian_invasion.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Mass_migration_of_Greece_and_Turkey_in_1900BCE.svg/800px-Mass_migration_of_Greece_and_Turkey_in_1900BCE.svg.png


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2014 at 07:24
We have lot of ancestor :D Every our ancestor came from europe to india:))  we are mixed race people :D


people who live Anatolia, they become our ancestor like cimmerians, cimmerians stayed anatolia, we can have their gene...:D



Edited by Attis of Anatolia - 21-May-2014 at 07:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2014 at 03:40
Originally posted by Ollios


Originally posted by Attis of Anatolia

who are we? islamized Anatolians i believe :D
and Who is Anatolian? Big smileEven Phyrgians or Hittites were foreign

And what exactly "foreign" means? If you go enough far back in time, we all came from Africa, so we are all foreign. We have to set time parameters and agree on how back in time we are willing to go for the needs of this thread.

However, with Turkish DNA being like
"... E1b1b1 = 10.7% (common in the Mediterranean region)
G = 10.9% (common in the Caucasus, also found in the Middle East)
I = 5.3% (common in Central Europe, the Western Caucasus, and the Balkans)
J1 = 9% (common in Arabia and Daghestan)
J2 = 24% (common in Western Asia and Southeastern Europe and also found in Central and South Asia)
K = 4.5% (common in Asia and the Caucasus)
L = 4.2% (common in India and Khorasan)
N = 3.8% (common in Eastern Europe and North Asia, including Siberia [e.g. Turkic-speaking Yakuts], the Altai Mountains region, and the Ural Mountains region - the article however did not consider N to come to Turkey's Turks from North Asia)
Q = 1.9% (common in North Asia including Northern Altaic peoples)
R1a = 6.9% (common in Central Asia, the Caucasus, Eastern Europe, and among Indo-Aryans)
R1b = 14.7% (common in Western Europe)
T = 2.5% (common in the Mediterranean, South Asia, and Northeastern Africa..." http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/anatolian-turks.html

I would opt for the vague phrase "Anatolian" as a not-bad-choice word choice for a meaning of the sort of "common Mediterranean genetic substrata dating from the Paleolithic".

Edited by Don Quixote - 31-May-2014 at 03:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2014 at 13:55
The Turks are a great people, with more in common with Iranian and Mediterranean people than the Altaic people. They have a Turkish language and some Turkish lore, but nothing more. They cannot deny the Iranian and European influence.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2015 at 12:28
TURKS FROM TÜRKİYE ARE 100% OF TURK ETHNIC ORIGIN! I AM READY FOR A INTENSIVE DISCUSSION BASED ON SCIENTIFIC FACTS.

Turk Nation: Anthropology-Archaeology-Genetic-Haplogroups
http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=229&t=12267

Antik DNA
http://www.turktoresi.com/viewforum.php?f=229

Tarihi Mezarlarda Bulunan Haplogrupların Ülkeler Listesi
http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=229&t=12209

Tarihi Mezarlarda Bulunan Y-DNA'lerin, MT-DNA Kombinasyonu
http://www.turktoresi.com/viewtopic.php?f=229&t=12210

Edited by kuzzar - 13-Jun-2015 at 19:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2015 at 02:50
What % Neanderthal genome presents in Turk/Turkic analysis?

Isn't a significant % of central Asian male line DNA traceable to the mighty Khan, Ghengis? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2015 at 09:22
A heap of bullshits.. First of all everyone has to know there is no such a thing "Pureblood" for any nation/race since all the people in the world are not horses or dogs . Afterall The Turks have Turk(Turkic) genes for sure. Maybe some have less some have more.. moreover as the science world says , geography affects the type.. Although The khagans had no Mongoloid eyes... Here is Yabgu(general-brother of Bilge Khagan)Kultegin 

Edited by Mertegin - 09-Jun-2015 at 10:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2015 at 09:26
Originally posted by MrButlerKing

Both Turkmen and Turkish are not majority Turkic, they mixed with the original people who turks conquered. Turkmen are the result of these Iranic and half mongoloid turks who conquered them. Turkish are results of these Half mongoloid seljuk turks and Anatolians. The original people in Turkmenistan spoke Iranic languages like Tajiks long before they spoke Turkic.

Turkmen genetics

Genetic studies on mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) restriction polymorphism confirmed that Turkmen were characterized by the presence of local Iranian mtDNA lineages, similar to the Eastern Iranian populations, but high male Mongoloid genetic component observed in Turkmens and Eastern Iranian populations with the frequencies of about 20%

There are 3 types of Turkmens today

The ones in Afghan, Pakistan who look predominately mongoloid 
The ones in Iraq who looks like Arabs caucasoid
The ones in Turkmenistan are like 16-18% mongoloid on average but 1/3 of them are also 26 - 33% Mongoloid.

Turkmen in Afghanistan


If you think that these children look like Arabs you must be blind when you look at any Arabs

Edited by Mertegin - 09-Jun-2015 at 09:28
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