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Qing is not China,but a Mongolian Dynasty

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  Quote honeybee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Qing is not China,but a Mongolian Dynasty
    Posted: 11-Oct-2014 at 22:12
And where did Ruslan get the idea that Mandarin means Hu yu from? Mandarin is commonly known as Putonghua (common language), Guoyu (national language), or Guanhua (literally language of the mandarin), never Hu hua (foreign language). Mandarin might have been more different than middle Chinese, but that's naturally because Beijing was the political center of China for the past 7 centuries. This goes with any language where the least changes in any language always remain in the peripheral region where activities are limited. Khalkh Mongolian also adopts lots of Russian and English vocab, whereas Ordos Mongolian is closer to original Mongolian in both vocab and pronunciation. It doesn't mean Khalkh Mongolian is a foreign language. Study some linguistics before making a stupid comment like that.
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  Quote Steppe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2014 at 01:48
The Mongols don't consider that the Qing was a Mongolian dynasty.

Qing Dynasty is Mongolian ? not Chinese?
http://historum.com/general-history/40981-qing-dynasty-mongolian-not-chinese.html
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  Quote kemes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2015 at 14:44
Originally posted by Ruslan


i'm ethnically Manchurian,Manchurian Qing Empire is not a part of Chinese history,but Mongolian history.


the name of the first Khan of Qing Empire,Nurhaci,the name came from a Mongolian word,means“destroyer”.  his title "Sure Beile" and "Kundulen Han" are both Mongolian.


"Aisingoiro" means "golden surname" in Mongolian language.


the ancestor of Nurhaci is a Mongolian Darughachi named "Möngke Temür",literally means "Eternal Iron" in the Mongolian language.


the name of Qing Empire came for the Mongolian word "Daichin",which means "warrior",in Chinese read as "Daiqing(代清)" or "Daqing(大清)", Qing Empire ,literally means "warrior empire".


we are not the descendant of Jurchens, Jurchens were slaughtered by the Mongols in 13th century,we are Mongols



Qing is not China,but a Mongolian Dynasty which ruled China.


I can verify that Ruslan is a liar and neither Mongol nor Manchu. Ruslan is a name used by Russians, and is not a Mongol or Manchu name.

"Aisin Gioro" does not mean anything in Mongolian. In Mongolian, "Altan" means gold. "Aisin" only means gold in Manchu. Gioro does not mean anything in Mongolian at all. "Gioro" originated from a place name where the Aisin Gioro clan originated. "Hala" means surname in Manchu.

Nurhaci's original name in Manchu is actually Nurgaci, similar to his brother's name Surgaci, Yarhaci, and Murhaci, it is written as Nurhaci because of the naming taboo for Emperors.

"Beile" is a Manchu title, not a Mongolian title.

Koreans and Vietnamese Emperors used to write their names in Chinese characters and used Chinese script to write their languages. Does that mean they are Chinese? So does non-Mongols using Mongol names and script mean they are Mongol?

The Manchu originated from the Jianzhou Jurchen confederation in Jilin. They were sedentary farmers and not pastoral nomads like Mongols.

Originally posted by Ruslan

Originally posted by lirelou

Considering that the Qing adopted Chinese language, customs, and civil adminstrative practices for the purpose of ruling China, and that their right to do was was based upon the right of conquest, I'd say that all the Qing lands now belong to China by that same right. I.e., they took over en empire, and eventually that empire took over them.

Mongolia is a bit different in that after Ghengiz, different Mongol hordes ruled different parts. Had Manchukuo survived World War II intact, history might see a different Manchuria, but whose present boundaries would be subject what it had lost to Russia, China, and modern Mongolia.  You can't can't base modern claims on some semi-mythical past, however nice the map may look.



today's official Chinese language is Mandarin, Chinese people call it “胡语” or "金鞑虏语",which means "foreign language". Mandarin is a mixture of Manchurian,Mongolian and northern Chinese language. the real Chinese language is similar to Cantonese,very different as Mandarin. most of Manchu customs originated from Mongols,including script,costumes and traditional sports such as Buku(wrestling).


Mongol costume



Manchu costume
 


Chinese costume



Another humongous lie. I'm starting to think that you aren't Manchu or Mongol at all, but someone who is trying to make Manchus and Mongols look stupid by impersonating them. Chinese call Mandarin as 官話 guanhua which means "the speech of officials", and Mandarin was spoken since the Ming dynasty before the Qing ever existed. Standard Mandarin is called Putonghua 普通話 (common language). Mandarin is a clearly Sinitic language related to Cantonese and sounds nothing like Mongolian or Manchu.

Mandarin:
123456789

yi er san si wu liu qi ba jiu shi

Cantonese:
yat yih sam sei ng luk chat bat gau sap

mandarin: ni hao, wo shi guangdong ren 你好、我是廣東人
cantonese: nei ho, ngoh si gwong dung yan. 你好、我係廣東人

Now repeat that in Mongol and Manchu and see if they sound anything remotely similar to each other as Cantonese and Mandarin do to each other.



Edited by kemes - 21-Jan-2015 at 15:03
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  Quote kemes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2015 at 14:54
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

A very interesting subject you have brought us to discuss, Ruslan, and one viewable in a number of ways. Yes it is well known how China tries to convince the world certain things are Chinese, when sometimes they are either not, or are able to be brought into the Chinese arena. Genghis Khan being a point in fact. In the case of the Qing dynasty, you have the lands of inner Manchuria being in China, and a kind of assimilation of a great deal of its population, which has happened a number of times, with Mongol and Han peoples. Was the Qing dynasty founded by the Chinese? No. But do the Chinese have a claim by saying a large part of the territory is Chinese now, and a substantial number of the people have Chinese ancestors? I guess it depends how you look at things. 


Wrong, its westerners who deliberately try to confuse terminology to make it look as though Chinese say Genghis Khan is an ethnic Chinese.

China NEVER said Genghis Khan is a Han Chinsese 漢人. 漢人 ONLY refers to ethnic Chinese, not any other ethnicity.

中國人 Zhongguo ren (an inhabitant of the Middle Kingdom) is translated by China as "Chinese, while 漢人 (Han people) is translated by China as "Han". 中國人 refers to ANY ethnic group living within the Middle Kingdom 中國 (China). It has no ethnic connotations at all. Like British does not refer to a specific ethnicity, it can mean English, Scottish, OR Welsh.

On the other hand, westerners like to obfuscate and translate both
中國人 and 漢人 as "Chinese", and make no difference.

When the Mongols established the Yuan dynasty in China, they declared that the Yuan dynasty was China (
中國) Zhongguo, Middle Kingdom, and called their own state 中國.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140325231543/https://webspace.utexas.edu/hl4958/perspectives/Zhao%20-%20reinventing%20china.pdf

A Mongol official whose words are recorded in the Yuan shi (History of Yuan), even boasted about how powerful "China"
中國 was compared to Japan, clearly referring to the Yuan dynasty as China.

[元史] 列傳第二十七 鐵木兒塔識

鐵木兒塔識曰:「刺探在敵國固有之,今六合一家,何以刺探為?設果有之,正可令睹中國之盛,歸告其主,使知向化。」

[History of Yuan] 鐵木兒塔識 (son of Toqto'a): "Such action of spying on your enemy state is no double expected, but since the world is now a united family, why would they even do such thing? Even if they are really spying on us, let them be. They will see how great China 中國 is and report it to their king and let him obey (us)."

The Yuan dynasty Mongols identified their state as 中國. This is why the Yuan emperors are referred to as
中國人 (Middle Kingdom people, people with Middle Kingdom nationality) in China. However, Chinese NEVER refer to Mongols or Genghis Khan as 漢人. Genghis Khan adopted the Chinese title "大朝" (Great Dynasty) to refer to the Mongol Empire.

Mongols who are citizens of China in Inner Mongolia are referred to as 中國人 (Middle Kingdom people).

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  Quote Babyboby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2016 at 19:46
If the manchurians can claim the Ming Palace as theirs then why can't China claim the Qing dynasty as part of Chinese history? Nevertheless, Qing dynasty has nothing to be proud of because the Chinese history has many great civilizations such as the Tang dynasty. Even manchurians never admit themselves as part of China there is nothing to lose. 
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  Quote Babyboby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2016 at 20:02
The reason why Chinese dislike manchurians because the Han people were forced to adapt the Qing culture and many Chinese were slaughtered defending their Han culture. The Chinese had been wearing Hanfu for 3000 years whereas Qipao only about 360 years in China. 
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2016 at 22:27
Nothing new here...forced assimilation of an alien culture was the norm for this era. The west did it vis a vie the opium wars for trade purposes. Missionaries intent good or bad did the same...nothing new.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote bolat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2016 at 02:03
small halkhasets still want to appropriate Manchurian history?Smile
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  Quote bolat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2016 at 02:06
halkha-mongols descendants Munchurian 
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  Quote bolat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2016 at 02:12
kemes
I don't know who he is such, but Ruslan not the Russian name
Raslan from the Turkic word Arslan, on Turkic "lion"

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  Quote bolat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2016 at 02:13
Originally posted by bolat

kemes
I don't know who he is such, but Ruslan not the Russian name
Ruslan from the Turkic word Arslan, on Turkic "lion"

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2016 at 09:08

When the Mongols or Qing conquered China and established a dynasty, it became part of Chinese history.

Mongols are Mongols, Qing are Manchus, Hans are Chinese - but all three together are East Asians.

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