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Qing is not China,but a Mongolian Dynasty

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  Quote Ruslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Qing is not China,but a Mongolian Dynasty
    Posted: 25-Nov-2012 at 06:32


i'm ethnically Manchurian,Manchurian Qing Empire is not a part of Chinese history,but Mongolian history.


the name of the first Khan of Qing Empire,Nurhaci,the name came from a Mongolian word,means“destroyer”.  his title "Sure Beile" and "Kundulen Han" are both Mongolian.


"Aisingoiro" means "golden surname" in Mongolian language.


the ancestor of Nurhaci is a Mongolian Darughachi named "Möngke Temür",literally means "Eternal Iron" in the Mongolian language.


the name of Qing Empire came for the Mongolian word "Daichin",which means "warrior",in Chinese read as "Daiqing(代清)" or "Daqing(大清)", Qing Empire ,literally means "warrior empire".


we are not the descendant of Jurchens, Jurchens were slaughtered by the Mongols in 13th century,we are Mongols



Qing is not China,but a Mongolian Dynasty which ruled China.
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  Quote Ruslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2012 at 06:49
Manchu Empire, a Mongolian dynasty which ruled China.


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  Quote Ruslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2012 at 06:52
Yuan Empire, a Mongolian dynasty which ruled China.


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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2012 at 08:03
Perhaps the Mongols slaughtered the majority of the Jurchen and absorbed the survivors, like the Saxons did with the Britons?

Edited by Nick1986 - 25-Nov-2012 at 08:03
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  Quote MrButlerKing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2012 at 08:30
Funny, I wonder if you're really Manchurian? Manchus will never say it's a Mongolian dynasty and most Mongolians will never say it's their dynasty either, you remind of this Vietnamese guy I had argument with, only he claimed it was Mongolian and I have a feeling you could be him but yes as always you're right that the Manchus were not Chinese but they were Tungustic people.

Portrait of emperor Qilong



Edited by MrButlerKing - 02-Dec-2012 at 08:34
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  Quote heyamigos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2012 at 07:43
Some of the original banner tribes that formed the Manchus were pure or mixed Mongols such as the "Yeha Nara" (the tribe that the Empress Cixi was born from).  Aisinjioro is Jurchen.  The name "golden" is just a continuation of their ancestors (Jin, Jurchen Tunguz tribe).  Some Evenk Tunguz tribes today in Siberia still carry this gold (Nanai) as a tribal name.  In actuality, Manchus core first was mostly Jurchen Jin and then later absorbed Mongols and some Chinese/Koreans after they conquered Liaoning.  Culturally before they crossed the Great Wall, they were highly Sinicized and adopted similar court customs as the Ming Chinese and Koryo Koreans.
 
Some of the Qing Manchu conquests were not just entirely the work of Manchus.  For example, invasion of Xinjiang (East Turkestan), the Manchus were fighting Oirat Mongols and Kazakhs, while the Chinese foot soldiers were used to conquer the Uygur Turkic oasis/town people.
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  Quote Ruslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2013 at 21:29
Chinese claim "Qing is a Chinese dynasty" just because they wanna claim "Manchuria, Tibet, Xinjiang were part of China" for political purpose. However in history,Qing was not a Chinese dynasty,but a Manchu-Mongol regime which ruled over China,Tibet and eastern Turkestan
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2013 at 22:35
A very interesting subject you have brought us to discuss, Ruslan, and one viewable in a number of ways. Yes it is well known how China tries to convince the world certain things are Chinese, when sometimes they are either not, or are able to be brought into the Chinese arena. Genghis Khan being a point in fact. In the case of the Qing dynasty, you have the lands of inner Manchuria being in China, and a kind of assimilation of a great deal of its population, which has happened a number of times, with Mongol and Han peoples. Was the Qing dynasty founded by the Chinese? No. But do the Chinese have a claim by saying a large part of the territory is Chinese now, and a substantial number of the people have Chinese ancestors? I guess it depends how you look at things. 
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2013 at 15:09
Considering that the Qing adopted Chinese language, customs, and civil adminstrative practices for the purpose of ruling China, and that their right to do was was based upon the right of conquest, I'd say that all the Qing lands now belong to China by that same right. I.e., they took over en empire, and eventually that empire took over them.

Mongolia is a bit different in that after Ghengiz, different Mongol hordes ruled different parts. Had Manchukuo survived World War II intact, history might see a different Manchuria, but whose present boundaries would be subject what it had lost to Russia, China, and modern Mongolia.  You can't can't base modern claims on some semi-mythical past, however nice the map may look.
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
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  Quote Ruslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2013 at 20:10
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

A very interesting subject you have brought us to discuss, Ruslan, and one viewable in a number of ways. Yes it is well known how China tries to convince the world certain things are Chinese, when sometimes they are either not, or are able to be brought into the Chinese arena. Genghis Khan being a point in fact. In the case of the Qing dynasty, you have the lands of inner Manchuria being in China, and a kind of assimilation of a great deal of its population, which has happened a number of times, with Mongol and Han peoples. Was the Qing dynasty founded by the Chinese? No. But do the Chinese have a claim by saying a large part of the territory is Chinese now, and a substantial number of the people have Chinese ancestors? I guess it depends how you look at things. 


historian Benedetto Croce has a famous quote:”All history is contemporary history.”

today a part of Manchuria belong to China,that's correct. however if Qing was China,then how Chinese gonna define those people who fought against the Manchu-Mongol invaders like Zheng Chenggong? were they heroes or traitors? if Qing was China,then they are definitely traitors because they fought against a "Chinese Dynasty",however today Chinese still define Zheng Chenggong as a NATIONAL HERO :)
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  Quote TheAlaniDragonRising Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2013 at 20:42
Originally posted by Ruslan

historian Benedetto Croce has a famous quote:”All history is contemporary history.”

today a part of Manchuria belong to China,that's correct. however if Qing was China,then how Chinese gonna define those people who fought against the Manchu-Mongol invaders like Zheng Chenggong? were they heroes or traitors? if Qing was China,then they are definitely traitors because they fought against a "Chinese Dynasty",however today Chinese still define Zheng Chenggong as a NATIONAL HERO :)
My best guess would be something on the lines of a hero of a civil war, or something like that.
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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  Quote Ruslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2013 at 21:16
Originally posted by lirelou

Considering that the Qing adopted Chinese language, customs, and civil adminstrative practices for the purpose of ruling China, and that their right to do was was based upon the right of conquest, I'd say that all the Qing lands now belong to China by that same right. I.e., they took over en empire, and eventually that empire took over them.

Mongolia is a bit different in that after Ghengiz, different Mongol hordes ruled different parts. Had Manchukuo survived World War II intact, history might see a different Manchuria, but whose present boundaries would be subject what it had lost to Russia, China, and modern Mongolia.  You can't can't base modern claims on some semi-mythical past, however nice the map may look.



today's official Chinese language is Mandarin, Chinese people call it “胡语” or "金鞑虏语",which means "foreign language". Mandarin is a mixture of Manchurian,Mongolian and northern Chinese language. the real Chinese language is similar to Cantonese,very different as Mandarin. most of Manchu customs originated from Mongols,including script,costumes and traditional sports such as Buku(wrestling).


Mongol costume



Manchu costume



Chinese costume

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  Quote Ruslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2013 at 21:24
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Originally posted by Ruslan

historian Benedetto Croce has a famous quote:”All history is contemporary history.”

today a part of Manchuria belong to China,that's correct. however if Qing was China,then how Chinese gonna define those people who fought against the Manchu-Mongol invaders like Zheng Chenggong? were they heroes or traitors? if Qing was China,then they are definitely traitors because they fought against a "Chinese Dynasty",however today Chinese still define Zheng Chenggong as a NATIONAL HERO :)
My best guess would be something on the lines of a hero of a civil war, or something like that.


they were obviously Chinese national heroes,because they tried to defend China from a foreign country.

untill 1912 while Chinese were struggling to gain their independance from the Manchus,"驅逐韃虜,恢復中華."(Expel the northern barbarian,revive China) was their slogan.


Edited by Ruslan - 03-Feb-2013 at 04:44
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  Quote baydlag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2013 at 02:39
Qing empire was Manchu Empire not a Mongolian or Chinese Empire.
Manchus allied with eastern Mongolians against Mongolian great king Ligden because of Ligden's increasing power and his plan to control all eastern small tribes. Khorchin and Dahuri later Chahar men were Qing's one of core power in the time but Oirats and Khalkha were not welcomed to Manchus.

Present day Mongolian and Chinese costumes both Manchu Costume. Manchus pushed the Mongolians and Chinese use their costumes and hair style.

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  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2014 at 21:12
Ruslan: I don't know if you're pursuing some nationalistic goal with this post, but there are some pretty glaring errors.

You say,"today's official Chinese language is Mandarin, Chinese people call it “胡语” or "金鞑虏语",which means "foreign language". Mandarin is a mixture of Manchurian, Mongolian and northern Chinese language. the real Chinese language is similar to Cantonese,very different as Mandarin. most of Manchu customs originated from Mongols, including script, costumes and traditional sports such as Buku(wrestling)."

But history shows that Ogedei Khan was the first Mongol leader to embrace Chinese language and culture. It was he who took on the Chinese dress, education and the first script (Chinese), in fact he had an advisor who was Chinese and from whom he adopted the customs. He was the first Mongol to build a Mongol city, Karakorum, modelled on Chinese cities that he'd seen.

References
Amitai-Preiss, Reuven. 1998. The Mamluk-Ilkhanid War. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 9780521462266.
Chambers, James. 1979. The Devil's Horsemen: The Mongol Invasion of Europe. New York: Atheneum. ISBN 9780689109423.
Hildinger, Eric. 1997. Warriors of the Steppe: A Military History of Central Asia, 500 B.C.E. to A.D. 1700. New York: Sarpedon. ISBN 9781885119438.
Morgan, David. 1986. The Mongols. New York: Blackwell. ISBN 9780631135562.
Nicolle, David. 1998. The Mongol Warlords. London: Brockhampton Press. ISBN 9781860194078.
Reagan, Geoffry. 1992. The Guinness Book of Decisive Battles. New York: Canopy Books. ISBN 9781558594319.
Saunders, John Joseph. 1971. The History of the Mongol Conquests. New York: Barnes and Noble. ISBN 9780389044512.
Sicker, Martin. 2000. The Islamic World in Ascendancy: From the Arab Conquests to the Siege of Vienna. Westport, CT: Praeger Publishers. ISBN 9780313001116.
Soucek, Svatopluk. 2000. A History of Inner Asia. New York: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 9780521651691.
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  Quote guo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2014 at 23:05
it is interesting that ,i can see 'manchu' here.  i am a 'hanzu' on my idcard.
but,my grandma,she is manchu.  and my face more like a manchu.
i will tell u that , qing and manchu is not mongol. 
i dont know why you western gays always say 'mangol mangol'
but you kwnow, the mangol lives in china,and the mangols had a dynasty in china ,that was only 70 years.

but the mangols were a part of china like a  Colonial ,that is how many years ////// more than 1000years

manchu is a part of china. the manchus had a dynasty in china twice ,once only a littel times,and second more than 300years.  \
we speak chinese .live like a chinese .   because the manchus know if you want to live in china,you must speak chines live like a chinese, even manchus always thought manchus are chinese.

whats the chinese. speak chinese and live like a chinese,that is a chinese.

it s funny that,you western always say 'mangol mangol' 
the mangol only knows  kill kill kill

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  Quote guo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2014 at 23:10
why manchus had a 300years dynasty in chian more than 300years.
but the mongol only 70
and i will tell you  mongol is a part of chinese   / there have more than 6m chinese mongols live in china
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  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2014 at 10:47
I assume Guo wanted to write "you western guys"  instead of " you western gays".  
 
Originally posted by guo

it is interesting that ,i can see 'manchu' here.  i am a 'hanzu' on my idcard.
but,my grandma,she is manchu.  and my face more like a manchu.
i will tell u that , qing and manchu is not mongol. 
i dont know why you western gays always say 'mangol mangol'
but you kwnow, the mangol lives in china,and the mangols had a dynasty in china ,that was only 70 years.
 
................
 
 
PS: Welcome to AE, Guo.
 
Star


Edited by Sander - 28-Mar-2014 at 10:49
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  Quote honeybee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2014 at 22:01
http://auctionimg2.kongfz.cc/20121125/1807762/18077627jTd80_n.jpg
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  Quote honeybee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2014 at 22:04
Anyone who thinks Mandarin is not a Sinitic language is a moron who has no knowledge of basic linguistics. The sentence structure is SVO, not SOV typical of Altaic languages, and it shares over 99% cognate with southern Chinese dialects. Only a handful of words in Mandarin has Manchu origin.
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